I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
people's workshops. Many, many dead links.

A sad goodbye to Howard Ruttan who often posted great things.

So sad to not be able to connect with Ken Vaughn's pages. Really a
wealth of info now not available.

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

Bill

I've been wondering about Ken. He, like me, hasn't posted here for quite
awhile. I wonder if his site is just down or something more permanent has
happened...

"Bill Leonhardt" wrote in message
...
I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
people's workshops. Many, many dead links.

A sad goodbye to Howard Ruttan who often posted great things.

So sad to not be able to connect with Ken Vaughn's pages. Really a
wealth of info now not available.

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

Bill

Ken Vaughn's site is STILL ACTIVE

this works for me

http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/

Visited him about 18 months ago.
A talented and sharing woodworker.
thanks again Ken

Ted



Phil Anderson wrote:
I've been wondering about Ken. He, like me, hasn't posted here for quite
awhile. I wonder if his site is just down or something more permanent has
happened...

"Bill Leonhardt" wrote in message
...
I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
people's workshops. Many, many dead links.

A sad goodbye to Howard Ruttan who often posted great things.

So sad to not be able to connect with Ken Vaughn's pages. Really a
wealth of info now not available.

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

Bill

In article
,
Bill Leonhardt wrote:

I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
people's workshops. Many, many dead links.

A sad goodbye to Howard Ruttan who often posted great things.

So sad to not be able to connect with Ken Vaughn's pages. Really a
wealth of info now not available.

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

Bill

You can always try the internet archive at archive.org. They might have
saved a usable copy.

On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

If it looks like it has value, steal it?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

If it looks like it has value, steal it?



I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
publisher would probably would have liked.



--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
"Morris wrote in message
...
On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

If it looks like it has value, steal it?

I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
publisher would probably would have liked.

And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?

It's theft, and it honors no one.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
"Morris wrote in message
...
On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

If it looks like it has value, steal it?

I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
publisher would probably would have liked.

And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?

It's theft, and it honors no one.


Maybe we're talking about two different things. I have never been to the
site under discussion. But if I had investment myself in constructing a
site, I would like it to have as much permanence as possible--sort of like
planting a tree. I'm not talking about anything that has to do with
theft...I'm talking about preservation. Do you think people write books
mostly for the money (not in my field of expertise they don't...lol)?


--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On 4/8/2010 11:21 PM, Bill wrote:
"Morris wrote in message
...
On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
"Morris wrote in message
...
On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

If it looks like it has value, steal it?

I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
publisher would probably would have liked.

And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?

It's theft, and it honors no one.


Maybe we're talking about two different things. I have never been to the
site under discussion. But if I had investment myself in constructing a
site, I would like it to have as much permanence as possible--sort of like
planting a tree. I'm not talking about anything that has to do with
theft...I'm talking about preservation. Do you think people write books
mostly for the money (not in my field of expertise they don't...lol)?

It's fairly common practice for Youtubers to encourage others to copy
and repost their videos in order to prevent their permanent removal.

But Youtubers don't expect to profit by sales of their work.

On 4/8/2010 10:21 PM, Bill wrote:
"Morris wrote in message
...
On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
"Morris wrote in message
...
On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

If it looks like it has value, steal it?

I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
publisher would probably would have liked.

And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?

It's theft, and it honors no one.

Maybe we're talking about two different things. I have never been to the
site under discussion. But if I had investment myself in constructing a
site, I would like it to have as much permanence as possible--sort of like
planting a tree. I'm not talking about anything that has to do with
theft...I'm talking about preservation. Do you think people write books
mostly for the money (not in my field of expertise they don't...lol)?

I understand the desire to preserve that which one values...

....and I maintain that taking someone else's property without their
permission and without an exchange of value for value, is theft.

Under international law, the right to make copies of authored (drawn,
sculpted, photographed, composed, recorded,...) materials is the
property of the creator from the very instant of creation.

Opinions on an author's motivation have no relevance, and calling theft
"preservation" doesn't change its nature.

In my experience, fewer than one in a thousand of those who "value" work
sufficiently to want to "preserve" it, value it enough even to say
"Thank you for showing it to me."

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
"Morris wrote in message
...
On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

If it looks like it has value, steal it?

I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
publisher would probably would have liked.

And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?

It's theft, and it honors no one.


If you don't want it copied, then copyright it. If you don't want it copied
for Personal use, don't put it on a public web site.

On 4/8/2010 11:49 PM, LDosser wrote:
"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
"Morris wrote in message
...
On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

If it looks like it has value, steal it?

I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
publisher would probably would have liked.

And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?

It's theft, and it honors no one.

If you don't want it copied, then copyright it. If you don't want it
copied for Personal use, don't put it on a public web site.

If your neighbors have that same opinion, you probably shouldn't park on
a public street.

Under international law, the copyright exists from the instant of
creation - and it exists without regard to location of its object.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On 4/9/2010 12:49 AM, LDosser wrote:
"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
...
On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
"Morris wrote in message
...
On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

If it looks like it has value, steal it?

I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
publisher would probably would have liked.

And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?

It's theft, and it honors no one.


If you don't want it copied, then copyright it.

He does. So do you. By law in the United States, anything you write is
automatically copyrighted. Your kids' first scribblings are
copyrighted. No action is required. Some additional rights accrue if
you _register_ the copyright, however that is not necessary for a valid
copyright to exist. Everything you or I post to USENET is copyrighted
and if something you posted showed up in a bestseller sometime without
your prior permission being obtained you would probably be able to
collect damages.

On the other hand, quoting on USENET almost certainly falls under "fair
use", and unless somebody has profited significantly from unauthorized
use of your post the chance of obtaining damages sufficient to pay your
legal fees is pretty much zero.

If you don't want it
copied for Personal use, don't put it on a public web site.

Copying for "personal use" is in any case not necessarily precluded by
copyright, depending on what exactly you are copying and on the nature
of the "personal use"--it comes under "fair use" and "fair use" is a
minefield for both the holder of the copyright and the person making the
copy, because it's almost all case law and there's a lot of it, some of
which is probably contradictory.

Morris Dovey wrote in news:hpm4j5$hup$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

If it looks like it has value, steal it?


If you can find the author or webmaster's e-mail address, you can ask
before downloading the site. If you can find it... Most webmasters have
removed their e-mail addresses due to the amount of spam, and don't check
the webmaster@ e-mail address (again, due to spam.)

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

On 4/8/2010 11:05 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Morris wrote in news:hpm4j5$hup$1
@speranza.aioe.org:

On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:

Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.

If it looks like it has value, steal it?

If you can find the author or webmaster's e-mail address, you can ask
before downloading the site. If you can find it... Most webmasters have
removed their e-mail addresses due to the amount of spam, and don't check
the webmaster@ e-mail address (again, due to spam.)

That's true - if the author can't be asked for permission and permission
isn't explicitly granted on the web site, then there is no permission.

The spammers have worked hard to be a problem. Since I /want/ feedback,
I've implemented a solution that works for me - I've put an e-mail link
on (I think) every one of my web pages that provides a subject
appropriate to that page - and most of those subject lines contain some
keyword that expresses that e-mail past the server filters. Since the
spambots universally disregard the subject portion of the link, the
strategy has worked fairly well.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

"Bill Leonhardt" wrote

I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
people's workshops. Many, many dead links.

Although my site never quite died, I made it fade away for a while.

Folk who like to list useful links might like to know that I've recently
restored it, somewhat edited, to its former state.

Jeff

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net

On Apr 9, 3:50*am, "Jeff Gorman" wrote:
"Bill Leonhardt" wrote

I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
people's workshops. *Many, many dead links.

Although my site never quite died, I made it fade away for a while.

Folk who like to list useful links might like to know that I've recently
restored it, somewhat edited, to its former state.

Jeff

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.ukwww.amgron.clara.net

Jeff: So glad to have what you so freely share and I highly value
accessable. Many thanks.



Yo Group:

I started this thread and, since I've lurked about on the rec long
enough to know better, I'm not surprised to see the direction it
took. I'm not interested in debating intellectural property and
copyright protection. Actually, I'm interested in woodworking. One
day I hope to acquire the necessary skill and have the time to post
web pages showing my shop, my projects, my jigs, etc. I have
thoroughly enjoyed these posts from others who have freely shared
their experiences. I have learned a lot and expect to learn more.
When I do post, I expect anyone who sees my postings to be able to
copy, save, share and use what they see and enhance their wood working
experiences. I would also like feedback and a "thank you", but that's
not neither necessary nor expected.

As I've said before, I've lerned an awful lot because others have
taken the time to post and, kinda like a debt, I expect to contribute
back some as well. I see this group like I see my wood working club.
A collection of folk who will freely share their skills and teach
others.

I am a hobbiest. Perhaps, if I did this for a living, I might not
want to share info so freely, but I expect I would not enjoy this
endevour as much.

So again, I'm sad to see some of the quality sites slip away and I
celebrate the opportunity to visit great sites (like Jeff's) that are
"here and now".

Bill

Bill Leonhardt wrote:
On Apr 9, 3:50 am, "Jeff Gorman" wrote:
"Bill Leonhardt" wrote

I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
people's workshops. Many, many dead links.
Although my site never quite died, I made it fade away for a while.

Folk who like to list useful links might like to know that I've recently
restored it, somewhat edited, to its former state.

Jeff

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.ukwww.amgron.clara.net

Jeff: So glad to have what you so freely share and I highly value
accessable. Many thanks.



Yo Group:

I started this thread and, since I've lurked about on the rec long
enough to know better, I'm not surprised to see the direction it
took. I'm not interested in debating intellectural property and
copyright protection. Actually, I'm interested in woodworking. One
day I hope to acquire the necessary skill and have the time to post
web pages showing my shop, my projects, my jigs, etc. I have
thoroughly enjoyed these posts from others who have freely shared
their experiences. I have learned a lot and expect to learn more.
When I do post, I expect anyone who sees my postings to be able to
copy, save, share and use what they see and enhance their wood working
experiences. I would also like feedback and a "thank you", but that's
not neither necessary nor expected.

As I've said before, I've lerned an awful lot because others have
taken the time to post and, kinda like a debt, I expect to contribute
back some as well. I see this group like I see my wood working club.
A collection of folk who will freely share their skills and teach
others.

I am a hobbiest. Perhaps, if I did this for a living, I might not
want to share info so freely, but I expect I would not enjoy this
endevour as much.

So again, I'm sad to see some of the quality sites slip away and I
celebrate the opportunity to visit great sites (like Jeff's) that are
"here and now".

Bill

Well said!
--the other Bill

I replied earlier about Ken Vaughn's site, lamenting the loss of Ken's
knowledge. Well, I just did a search and found his site at this URL, which
I believe is newer:

http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/index.html Looks like, at least Ken, is
still around!

"Bill Leonhardt" wrote in message
...
On Apr 9, 3:50 am, "Jeff Gorman" wrote:
"Bill Leonhardt" wrote

I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
people's workshops. Many, many dead links.

Although my site never quite died, I made it fade away for a while.

Folk who like to list useful links might like to know that I've recently
restored it, somewhat edited, to its former state.

Jeff

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.ukwww.amgron.clara.net

Jeff: So glad to have what you so freely share and I highly value
accessable. Many thanks.



Yo Group:

I started this thread and, since I've lurked about on the rec long
enough to know better, I'm not surprised to see the direction it
took. I'm not interested in debating intellectural property and
copyright protection. Actually, I'm interested in woodworking. One
day I hope to acquire the necessary skill and have the time to post
web pages showing my shop, my projects, my jigs, etc. I have
thoroughly enjoyed these posts from others who have freely shared
their experiences. I have learned a lot and expect to learn more.
When I do post, I expect anyone who sees my postings to be able to
copy, save, share and use what they see and enhance their wood working
experiences. I would also like feedback and a "thank you", but that's
not neither necessary nor expected.

As I've said before, I've lerned an awful lot because others have
taken the time to post and, kinda like a debt, I expect to contribute
back some as well. I see this group like I see my wood working club.
A collection of folk who will freely share their skills and teach
others.

I am a hobbiest. Perhaps, if I did this for a living, I might not
want to share info so freely, but I expect I would not enjoy this
endevour as much.

So again, I'm sad to see some of the quality sites slip away and I
celebrate the opportunity to visit great sites (like Jeff's) that are
"here and now".

Bill

On Apr 20, 3:45*pm, "Phil Anderson" wrote:
I replied earlier about Ken Vaughn's site, lamenting the loss of Ken's
knowledge. *Well, I just did a search and found his site at this URL, which
I believe is newer:

http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/index.html*Looks like, at least Ken, is
still around!

"Bill Leonhardt" wrote in message

...
On Apr 9, 3:50 am, "Jeff Gorman" wrote:





Great news!!!! Thanks Phil

Bill

Phil Anderson wrote:

Yo Group:

I started this thread and, since I've lurked about on the rec long
enough to know better, I'm not surprised to see the direction it
took. I'm not interested in debating intellectural property and
copyright protection. Actually, I'm interested in woodworking. One
day I hope to acquire the necessary skill and have the time to post
web pages showing my shop, my projects, my jigs, etc. I have
thoroughly enjoyed these posts from others who have freely shared
their experiences. I have learned a lot and expect to learn more.
When I do post, I expect anyone who sees my postings to be able to
copy, save, share and use what they see and enhance their wood working
experiences. I would also like feedback and a "thank you", but that's
not neither necessary nor expected.

As I've said before, I've lerned an awful lot because others have
taken the time to post and, kinda like a debt, I expect to contribute
back some as well. I see this group like I see my wood working club.
A collection of folk who will freely share their skills and teach
others.

I am a hobbiest. Perhaps, if I did this for a living, I might not
want to share info so freely, but I expect I would not enjoy this
endevour as much.

So again, I'm sad to see some of the quality sites slip away and I
celebrate the opportunity to visit great sites (like Jeff's) that are
"here and now".

Bill

Well said! Lots here do it for a living and still love it!!!!!
--
You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK !
Mandriva 2010 using KDE 4.3
Website: www.rentmyhusband.biz

On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:45:27 -0700, Phil Anderson wrote:

I replied earlier about Ken Vaughn's site, lamenting the loss of Ken's
knowledge. Well, I just did a search and found his site at this URL,
which I believe is newer:

http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/index.html Looks like, at least Ken,
is still around!

I thought I would never say this, but this guy has too many clamps.

basilisk

--
A wink is as good as a nod to a blind horse

On Apr 9, 3:50*am, "Jeff Gorman" wrote:
"Bill Leonhardt" wrote

I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
people's workshops. *Many, many dead links.

Although my site never quite died, I made it fade away for a while.

Folk who like to list useful links might like to know that I've recently
restored it, somewhat edited, to its former state.

Jeff

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.ukwww.amgron.clara.net

Jeff,

What is your opinion of Morris Dovey's sentiments?

If we were to archive pages from your site on our personal systems,
would you consider it "stealing" or "preserving"?

"DerbyDad03" wrote

:: What is your opinion of Morris Dovey's sentiments?

:: If we were to archive pages from your site on our personal systems,
would you consider it "stealing" or "preserving"?

To be candid, having been on holiday, I've forgotten Morris's sentiments,
but when putting stuff on the internet I've always been aware that I've lost
control of it's eventual use. I gather that applications do exist for easily
downloading entire web sites.

I know how much people's hobbies can mean to them; my aim is to help folk
get good results by following time-honoured and sound techniques. I first
started this site when woodworking groups could only use ASCCII code to
construct drawings but it has extended to re-using material already
published (and paid for) that otherwise would be sitting on my hard drive
and doing nothing very useful.

Since it is freely offered, logically I can't see it as stealing, but I'd be
shocked if content (especially the pics) was copied 'verbatim' and blatantly
offered as someone's original work.

Fairly recently I saw that somebody has done a sketchup drawing of my ramped
shooting board (http://tinyurl.com/24zpu7a) but since he/she did acknowledge
the source, that was pleasing and OK by me. However, I don't know what I
would think if, as is extremely unlikely, somebody offered them for sale in
quantity without prior contact.

However it would make my day if, as has happened in the past, folk who
thought that the content was worth the trouble of archiving were also kind
enough to tell me. My slightly disguised email address is at the foot of
each posting, but not (so far) on the site itself.

The new, much-easier-to-use software that prompted me to restore the site
does offer a comment box but so far I'm a bit wary of trying it.

Jeff

Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net

On 4/28/2010 7:40 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

What is your opinion of Morris Dovey's sentiments?

If we were to archive pages from your site on our personal systems,
would you consider it "stealing" or "preserving"?

To alleviate your obvious distress at my sentiments, the web page with
the offending copyrights has been moved to a private area on the server.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/