Despite multiple coats and letting the stain sink in as long as (or even
sometimes longer than) recommended on the can, my stain never seems to
get nearly as dark as shown on the can or as shown in the store samples.

- I have found this both with multiple different Minwax oil stains and
with Rockler gel stains. The stain never gets nearly as dark, dense,
rich as shonw in the samples.

- For me this is true both for pine and (red) oak -- which are the types
of wood shown for example in the Minwax samples.

- It happens both on unsanded S4S wood and on wood sanded to 200 grit

- Also it happens whether or not I use a pre-stain wood conditioner.

- Finally it happens even with multiple coates (4+), even when using
very generous applications, even when kept on longer than recommended,
and even if I don't wipe it off aggresively at the end.

The only areas that stain as dark as (or darker than) the samples are
end grain.

What could I possibly be doing wrong?

On Mar 5, 1:00*pm, blueman wrote:
Despite multiple coats and letting the stain sink in as long as (or even
sometimes longer than) recommended on the can, my stain never seems to
get nearly as dark as shown on the can or as shown in the store samples.

- I have found this both with multiple different Minwax oil stains and
* *with Rockler gel stains. The stain never gets nearly as dark, dense,
* *rich as shonw in the samples.

- For me this is true both for pine and (red) oak -- which are the types
* of wood shown for example in the Minwax samples.

- It happens both on unsanded S4S wood and on wood sanded to 200 grit

- Also it happens whether or not I use a pre-stain wood conditioner.

- Finally it happens even with multiple coates (4+), even when using
* very generous applications, even when kept on longer than recommended,
* and even if I don't wipe it off aggresively at the end.

The only areas that stain as dark as (or darker than) the samples are
end grain.

What could I possibly be doing wrong?

Try using a dye. There are water/alcohol soluble dyes available at
Woodcraft. Try TransTint (this is what I use).
The stains that you are using are made from pigments that don't
penetrate hard wood very well (large molecules). Dyes are much
smaller compounds (usually analine derivatives) that penetrate the
pours of hardwood much better.

Try it.

Yeah, this is really common. I think every woodworker goes through
this. Oils stains are just exactly like you state. You can get closer
to the store colors by not wiping off so cleanly and leaving a build
of color to dry. I'm sure that is what they do but it is not so
practicle or easy to achieve on a real project.

A few ideas.

1. Learn how to use Dyes. A very very different process but much more
predictable once you learn the tricks.
2. Try some water based stains. I find the General Finishes water
based stains to have a whole lot of grit and good color lay down. But
using water based requures the extra step of raising the grain.
3. Gel stains are oil stains that have some jellified nature and poly
included. These can be much more easily used as a coating where you
can leave a film to get the deep color you want.

One approach I use on oak (and others) is a standard oil stain on the
raw wood or tung oiled, then stained. Then I put down a thin coat of
shellac. Then I use a darker gel stain to fill the grain with nice
dark lines but not filled so they are flat. You can work the gel stain
with a real saturated rag and leave behind a film as dark as you like.
I actually use it to antique the look and leave lots more in the
corners. The gel stain has poly in it so it will dry and stay on the
surface better than doing the same leave behind with standard oil
stain.

You can then lacquer over or poly over or shellac over or wax over or
my fav lacquer then wax over or just leave it. I also sometimes use
black wax for even more antiquing sometimes.

On Mar 5, 10:00*am, blueman wrote:
Despite multiple coats and letting the stain sink in as long as (or even
sometimes longer than) recommended on the can, my stain never seems to
get nearly as dark as shown on the can or as shown in the store samples.

- I have found this both with multiple different Minwax oil stains and
* *with Rockler gel stains. The stain never gets nearly as dark, dense,
* *rich as shonw in the samples.

- For me this is true both for pine and (red) oak -- which are the types
* of wood shown for example in the Minwax samples.

- It happens both on unsanded S4S wood and on wood sanded to 200 grit

- Also it happens whether or not I use a pre-stain wood conditioner.

- Finally it happens even with multiple coates (4+), even when using
* very generous applications, even when kept on longer than recommended,
* and even if I don't wipe it off aggresively at the end.

The only areas that stain as dark as (or darker than) the samples are
end grain.

What could I possibly be doing wrong?

On 3/5/2010 10:56 AM SonomaProducts.com spake thus:

Yeah, this is really common. I think every woodworker goes through
this. Oils stains are just exactly like you state. You can get closer
to the store colors by not wiping off so cleanly and leaving a build
of color to dry. I'm sure that is what they do but it is not so
practicle or easy to achieve on a real project.

[snip]

So do you think you could ever learn to bottom-post, which is what, oh,
I don't know, 99.5% of the people here do when responding to messages?


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

On Mar 5, 12:20*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 3/5/2010 10:56 AM SonomaProducts.com spake thus:

Yeah, this is really common. I think every woodworker goes through
this. Oils stains are just exactly like you state. You can get closer
to the store colors by not wiping off so cleanly and leaving a build
of color to dry. I'm sure that is what they do but it is not so
practicle or easy to achieve on a real project.

[snip]

So do you think you could ever learn to bottom-post, which is what, oh,
I don't know, 99.5% of the people here do when responding to messages?

--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

I'll consider it.

On 3/5/2010 2:15 PM SonomaProducts.com spake thus:

On Mar 5, 12:20 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 3/5/2010 10:56 AM SonomaProducts.com spake thus:

Yeah, this is really common. I think every woodworker goes through
this. Oils stains are just exactly like you state. You can get closer
to the store colors by not wiping off so cleanly and leaving a build
of color to dry. I'm sure that is what they do but it is not so
practicle or easy to achieve on a real project.

[snip]

So do you think you could ever learn to bottom-post, which is what, oh,
I don't know, 99.5% of the people here do when responding to messages?

I'll consider it.

Thank you; that's very considerate of you.


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

So do you think you could ever learn to bottom-post, which is what, oh,
I don't know, 99.5% of the people here do when responding to messages?

Sheesh. You and Dave Bugg over in teh BBQ group should meet.

-Zz

On Mar 5, 6:48*pm, Zz Yzx wrote:
So do you think you could ever learn to bottom-post, which is what, oh,
I don't know, 99.5% of the people here do when responding to messages?

Sheesh. *You and Dave Bugg over in teh BBQ group should meet.

-Zz

NO ****!!!

Your sig line perfectly matches your inability to deal with trivialities.

Happily hanging out up here with Sonoma. How ya doin?

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
On 3/5/2010 10:56 AM SonomaProducts.com spake thus:

Yeah, this is really common. I think every woodworker goes through
this. Oils stains are just exactly like you state. You can get closer
to the store colors by not wiping off so cleanly and leaving a build
of color to dry. I'm sure that is what they do but it is not so
practicle or easy to achieve on a real project.

[snip]

So do you think you could ever learn to bottom-post, which is what, oh, I
don't know, 99.5% of the people here do when responding to messages?


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

I like your style Joe!

Some of us just like being on top I guess ;-D

K.

"Joe" wrote in message
...
Your sig line perfectly matches your inability to deal with trivialities.

Happily hanging out up here with Sonoma. How ya doin?

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
On 3/5/2010 10:56 AM SonomaProducts.com spake thus:

Yeah, this is really common. I think every woodworker goes through
this. Oils stains are just exactly like you state. You can get closer
to the store colors by not wiping off so cleanly and leaving a build
of color to dry. I'm sure that is what they do but it is not so
practicle or easy to achieve on a real project.

[snip]

So do you think you could ever learn to bottom-post, which is what, oh, I
don't know, 99.5% of the people here do when responding to messages?


--
You were wrong, and I'm man enough to admit it.

- a Usenet "apology"

Geez Kate you sound like fun...

IMHO Posting on bottom for someone else, is simply being submissive. Post
where you want.




"Kate" wrote in message
...
I like your style Joe!

Some of us just like being on top I guess ;-D

K.

"blueman" wrote in message
...
Despite multiple coats and letting the stain sink in as long as (or even
sometimes longer than) recommended on the can, my stain never seems to
get nearly as dark as shown on the can or as shown in the store samples.

- I have found this both with multiple different Minwax oil stains and
with Rockler gel stains. The stain never gets nearly as dark, dense,
rich as shonw in the samples.

- For me this is true both for pine and (red) oak -- which are the types
of wood shown for example in the Minwax samples.

- It happens both on unsanded S4S wood and on wood sanded to 200 grit

- Also it happens whether or not I use a pre-stain wood conditioner.

- Finally it happens even with multiple coates (4+), even when using
very generous applications, even when kept on longer than recommended,
and even if I don't wipe it off aggresively at the end.

The only areas that stain as dark as (or darker than) the samples are
end grain.

What could I possibly be doing wrong?

You could, probably are over sanding. If you are going past 180 you may be
leaving little for the stain to soak into.

blueman wrote in :

*snip*

The only areas that stain as dark as (or darker than) the samples are
end grain.

What could I possibly be doing wrong?

How old are the store samples? Most woods naturally change over time,
often darkening as they get older.

Puckdropper

--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

On Mar 5, 4:40*pm, Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:
blueman wrote :

*snip*

The only areas that stain as dark as (or darker than) the samples are
end grain.

What could I possibly be doing wrong?

How old are the store samples? *Most woods naturally change over time,
often darkening as they get older.

And at the same time, stain has a tendency to fade over time. Hmmmm.



Puckdropper

--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

"GarageWoodworks" wrote in message
...
On Mar 5, 4:40 pm, Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:
blueman wrote :

*snip*

The only areas that stain as dark as (or darker than) the samples are
end grain.

What could I possibly be doing wrong?

How old are the store samples? Most woods naturally change over time,
often darkening as they get older.

And at the same time, stain has a tendency to fade over time. Hmmmm.

I have not noticed that unless of course the piece is subject to fading due
to lighting conditions. I have been using a particular stain for 20 years
and it continues to match pieces done 20 years ago. In 1995 I built an
entertainment system for a customer and in 2007 had to modify it and add
drawers, the customer mentioned that it all looked like it was built at the
same time.

"blueman" wrote in message
...
Despite multiple coats and letting the stain sink in as long as (or even
sometimes longer than) recommended on the can, my stain never seems to
get nearly as dark as shown on the can or as shown in the store samples.

- I have found this both with multiple different Minwax oil stains and
with Rockler gel stains. The stain never gets nearly as dark, dense,
rich as shonw in the samples.

- For me this is true both for pine and (red) oak -- which are the types
of wood shown for example in the Minwax samples.

- It happens both on unsanded S4S wood and on wood sanded to 200 grit

- Also it happens whether or not I use a pre-stain wood conditioner.

- Finally it happens even with multiple coates (4+), even when using
very generous applications, even when kept on longer than recommended,
and even if I don't wipe it off aggresively at the end.

The only areas that stain as dark as (or darker than) the samples are
end grain.

What could I possibly be doing wrong?

The two main reasons have both been mentioned.

Sanding to too fine a grit which doesn't allow the pigment any rough surface
to settle into.

However, given how long most store displays have been out, my $$ is on the
wood darkening over time, something all woods do, to greatly varying
degrees.

jc

blueman wrote:

: What could I possibly be doing wrong?

Are you putting on a top clear coat (varnish, shellac, lacquer, etc.)?
Dyes (which, in spite of the syte/stain distinction, are in a lot of thing
labelled "stain") only show their true color and darkness once a topcoat
is applied. This is most extreme with aniline dyes, but it might be
happening in your case as well.

-- Andy Barss

blueman wrote:
Despite multiple coats and letting the stain sink in as long as (or even
sometimes longer than) recommended on the can, my stain never seems to
get nearly as dark as shown on the can or as shown in the store samples.

- I have found this both with multiple different Minwax oil stains and
with Rockler gel stains. The stain never gets nearly as dark, dense,
rich as shonw in the samples.

- For me this is true both for pine and (red) oak -- which are the types
of wood shown for example in the Minwax samples.

For the oak, try Watco Danish Oil, dark walnut. It will definitely
stain your oak dark. I built a kitchen out of white oak a long time ago
and
I was having a hard time getting it dark. Never had much of a problem
with pine however, and I really didn't like the Watco on pine. Really
good on Oak, both red and white.

--
Jack
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have".
-- Thomas Jefferson
http://jbstein.com