HI,

We are getting a 1 1/4" granite countertop installed, and I have a
feeling we are going to have to reinforce our base cabinets. The
construction is thus: 1/2" particle board sides and back and 3/4"
solid Oak face- probably the cheapest possible builder supplied
cabinets? The oak face looks like it has only been tacked to the rest
of the cabinets with brads. I dont think they have been attached to
each other real tight, I couldnt see the screws, unless they are
hidden or something. Will such cabinets support the granite? What do I
need to fo to reinforce them? I have a 8' straight run, a 2'-4"x
3'-10" "L" and a 6' long island.

My next question is, we plan to raise the bar area a few inches off
the island surface and were planing to support the granite with a 2x4
wall. Do I need to pin this wall to the cabinets supporting the
island? Also, when I attach the wall to the floor boards, do I use
nails or screws, and how many at each point? This wall is also L
shaped, will it be self supporting? What Can I do to prevent it from
toppling over, like someone had asked earlier? THe granite over hang
will be supported by brackets.

We are already way over budget with the granite and would like to
reinforce the cabinets and build the support wall ourselves. I had
taken a carpentry class with the carpenters union in Pittsburgh, so I
am fairly confident I can do this.

Any help would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks and have a great weekend.

-Arati.

Granite weighs 168 # a cubic foot. I'm not about to do the math but I would
guess that some bracing or internal framing would be required

--
Mike G.

Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net
"Arman" wrote in message
om...
HI,

We are getting a 1 1/4" granite countertop installed, and I have a
feeling we are going to have to reinforce our base cabinets. The
construction is thus: 1/2" particle board sides and back and 3/4"
solid Oak face- probably the cheapest possible builder supplied
cabinets? The oak face looks like it has only been tacked to the rest
of the cabinets with brads. I dont think they have been attached to
each other real tight, I couldnt see the screws, unless they are
hidden or something. Will such cabinets support the granite? What do I
need to fo to reinforce them? I have a 8' straight run, a 2'-4"x
3'-10" "L" and a 6' long island.

My next question is, we plan to raise the bar area a few inches off
the island surface and were planing to support the granite with a 2x4
wall. Do I need to pin this wall to the cabinets supporting the
island? Also, when I attach the wall to the floor boards, do I use
nails or screws, and how many at each point? This wall is also L
shaped, will it be self supporting? What Can I do to prevent it from
toppling over, like someone had asked earlier? THe granite over hang
will be supported by brackets.

We are already way over budget with the granite and would like to
reinforce the cabinets and build the support wall ourselves. I had
taken a carpentry class with the carpenters union in Pittsburgh, so I
am fairly confident I can do this.

Any help would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks and have a great weekend.

-Arati.

hello, Unless the cabinets are really in rough shape they should be fine, we
just did a reface with old 5/8 melemine cabinets sides set 1 1/4 stone on top
and all is fine.

screw the wall into the floor ...in floor joists if possible....and yes attach
wall to cabinets...if the island is attached to the floor then you should be
fine.
Ralphw

On 14 Feb 2004 04:02:08 -0800, (Arman) wrote:

HI,

We are getting a 1 1/4" granite countertop installed, and I have a
feeling we are going to have to reinforce our base cabinets. The
construction is thus: 1/2" particle board sides and back and 3/4"
solid Oak face- probably the cheapest possible builder supplied
cabinets?

I'd worry about that.

standard operating procedure for one local kitchen remodel shop here
is to support the stone on a tubular steel frame, bypassing the
cabinets completely.

first thing I'd do is get the opinion of somebody local. we can't see
what you have or shake it up a bit to see if any parts are ready to
fall off or what.





The oak face looks like it has only been tacked to the rest
of the cabinets with brads. I dont think they have been attached to
each other real tight, I couldnt see the screws, unless they are
hidden or something. Will such cabinets support the granite? What do I
need to fo to reinforce them? I have a 8' straight run, a 2'-4"x
3'-10" "L" and a 6' long island.

My next question is, we plan to raise the bar area a few inches off
the island surface and were planing to support the granite with a 2x4
wall. Do I need to pin this wall to the cabinets supporting the
island?

pinning the wall and the cabinets should help them both. a good
connection there will also help the joint in the stone to remain
tight.




Also, when I attach the wall to the floor boards, do I use
nails or screws, and how many at each point?

don't put so many fasteners that you split the wood. frame walls by
themselves are great for compressive loads (straight down), but not as
good for racking (shifting in the plane of the wall) or uplift.
racking strength gets better with sheathing (see below) and uplift can
be dealt with through the use of hardware.




This wall is also L
shaped, will it be self supporting?

being L shaped definitely helps. being U shaped would help more. what
will support the free corner? sheathing it with plywood also helps.
3/8 CDX on one side should be fine. if you're still worried, glue the
ply to the framing.



What Can I do to prevent it from
toppling over,

if you're worried about the wall overturning fasten it to the floor
either with allthread or straps. you didn't say what your floor was
made of, but the strap will need a solid connection (not nails) to the
floor. if it's joists and sheathing, get a lag screw into the joist,
through the strap, which wraps up over the top of the wall. if it's
concrete, get an anchor drilled well into the slab with the allthread
connected to that , running to the top of the wall with a nut over an
oversize washer.

if the support is well designed, overturn shouldn't be a problem.




like someone had asked earlier? THe granite over hang
will be supported by brackets.

make sure that there is support fairly well distributed beneath the
stone. fastening the stone to that support is the installer's job.




'

We are already way over budget with the granite and would like to
reinforce the cabinets and build the support wall ourselves. I had
taken a carpentry class with the carpenters union in Pittsburgh, so I
am fairly confident I can do this.


look inside your cabinets for places where you can slip in some
support that will reach from the bottom of the granite to the
subfloor. try to take the weight off of the cabinet wherever possible.
particle board isn't known for great longevity in damp locations like
kitchen cabinets....

2x4s can support a hell of a lot of load in the lengths you're dealing
with






Any help would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks and have a great weekend.

-Arati.

"Arman" wrote in message
We are already way over budget with the granite and would like to
reinforce the cabinets and build the support wall ourselves. I had
taken a carpentry class with the carpenters union in Pittsburgh, so I
am fairly confident I can do this.

Strictly some thoughts in the FWIW category:

You have limited choices without going to more expense. Seems like the guys
installing the granite could give you some input, but then again, my recent
experience is that many of these 'installers' just want the money and could
care less.

Are the kick plates built in, the boxes themselves mounted on a kick plate
base, or do they use leveling legs? The anwer to those questions will be of
paramount importance, with leveling legs being the most problematic in my
experience.

A 1 1/4" slab of granite is going to weigh roughly +/- 24 lbs /sf. That is
thick granite, most of what I've seen is 3/4" slab which weighs in at around
15 - 20 lbs/sf ... with bullnose trim, it looks 1/14" thick.

Can you get by with thinner granite at a reduced weight/sf?

Although it is impossible to tell without seeing the cabinets themselves in
person, if the base cabinets are sturdy and will not rack when force is
applied front to back or side to side, if they are screwed to the wall
through solid tack plates on the back, AND to each other; AND if you have a
solid plywood substrate for the top that further ties the cabinets together,
then most of the weight should be distributed straight down and you will
most likely be OK, even with "builder's specials" ... again it is difficult
to make that call without being there.

If they were mine I would do the following as a minimum if budget was a
consideration: Satisfy yourself about the sturdiness of the kick plate
method and/or legs; Make sure the base cabinets are adequately fastened to
studs in the wall, and to each other; Brace (with glue and screws) the tops
with 3/4" X 4" plywood triangles at the top four corners of each box; Add a
3/4" plywood substrate across all the cabinets and make sure that it is
screwed into each corner brace at the top of each box.

You should be able to get a gut feeling of the effectiveness of these types
of measures on your cabinets ... go with the feeling.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/13/04

Hi all, thank you so much for your suggestions.

THe cabinets are maufactured by Wellborne and here is how they are
constructed:

http://www.wellborn.com/products/selectconst.html

They dont have levelers, at least not that I can see them. Kickplates
look like they were attached to the sides.

Once again, thanks to everyone for your input!

"Swingman" wrote in message ...
"Arman" wrote in message
We are already way over budget with the granite and would like to
reinforce the cabinets and build the support wall ourselves. I had
taken a carpentry class with the carpenters union in Pittsburgh, so I
am fairly confident I can do this.

Strictly some thoughts in the FWIW category:

You have limited choices without going to more expense. Seems like the guys
installing the granite could give you some input, but then again, my recent
experience is that many of these 'installers' just want the money and could
care less.

Are the kick plates built in, the boxes themselves mounted on a kick plate
base, or do they use leveling legs? The anwer to those questions will be of
paramount importance, with leveling legs being the most problematic in my
experience.

A 1 1/4" slab of granite is going to weigh roughly +/- 24 lbs /sf. That is
thick granite, most of what I've seen is 3/4" slab which weighs in at around
15 - 20 lbs/sf ... with bullnose trim, it looks 1/14" thick.

Can you get by with thinner granite at a reduced weight/sf?

Although it is impossible to tell without seeing the cabinets themselves in
person, if the base cabinets are sturdy and will not rack when force is
applied front to back or side to side, if they are screwed to the wall
through solid tack plates on the back, AND to each other; AND if you have a
solid plywood substrate for the top that further ties the cabinets together,
then most of the weight should be distributed straight down and you will
most likely be OK, even with "builder's specials" ... again it is difficult
to make that call without being there.

If they were mine I would do the following as a minimum if budget was a
consideration: Satisfy yourself about the sturdiness of the kick plate
method and/or legs; Make sure the base cabinets are adequately fastened to
studs in the wall, and to each other; Brace (with glue and screws) the tops
with 3/4" X 4" plywood triangles at the top four corners of each box; Add a
3/4" plywood substrate across all the cabinets and make sure that it is
screwed into each corner brace at the top of each box.

You should be able to get a gut feeling of the effectiveness of these types
of measures on your cabinets ... go with the feeling.