I just built a TV cabinet with ash wood. It turned out great but I am having
trouble getting the grain filled. I am using Bulls Eye sanding sealer.
I don't want to do anything that will hide the grain of the wood. My final
finish will be shellac. I have put on several coats of sealer sinding
lightly with 220 grit.
What am I doing wrong?
Any help appreciated.
Virgle

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Virgle" wrote:
I just built a TV cabinet with ash wood. It turned out great but I am
having
trouble getting the grain filled. I am using Bulls Eye sanding sealer.
I don't want to do anything that will hide the grain of the wood. My final
finish will be shellac. I have put on several coats of sealer sinding
lightly with 220 grit.
What am I doing wrong?

Sanding sealer isn't the same as filler.

isn't sanding sealer shellac?

In article , "Virgle" wrote:
I just built a TV cabinet with ash wood. It turned out great but I am having
trouble getting the grain filled. I am using Bulls Eye sanding sealer.
I don't want to do anything that will hide the grain of the wood. My final
finish will be shellac. I have put on several coats of sealer sinding
lightly with 220 grit.
What am I doing wrong?

Sanding sealer isn't the same as filler.

"Virgle" wrote:
I just built a TV cabinet with ash wood. It turned out great but I am
having
trouble getting the grain filled. I am using Bulls Eye sanding sealer.
I don't want to do anything that will hide the grain of the wood. My final
finish will be shellac. I have put on several coats of sealer sinding
lightly with 220 grit.
What am I doing wrong?

Doug is right. Sanding sealer is just that, sealer. It isn't pore
filler. IMOE, you have to put on something like 9+ mil of finish to
be able to sand/polish out the pores in a highly tubular grain like
ash or most nut woods.

Use a pore filler like pore-o-pack, or similar. It is finely ground
crystalline material of some sort, as they all are. Some are
quartzite, and some are silica based, but in the end they all do the
same. FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS CAREFULLY.

When the pores are filled, and sanded, start up with your shellac
again. It will go on as smooth as the surface you left behind in your
final sanding.

As far as sanding sealer goes, it is indeed dewaxed shellac. The waxy
polymers that are part of the shellac mix are decanted off, or
chemically removed to make sanding sealer. These waxy polymers are
known to inhibit the adhesion of other finishes and can cause
blotchiness, fisheyes, and all other types of problems. Hence their
removal.

The trade off is that the sanding sealer is not as resistant to
abrasion or water as regular "waxed" shellac, so it needs a top coat
of something if the surface is to be used or handled.

If you going to fill the pores on your project at this point, I would
suggest that you don't go with a water based pore filler. They take a
while to dry, and the water component will almost certainly make your
coats of shellac blush or water mark. Then of course, you will be
tasked with sanding the new markings out as well.

Get a solvent based material and it should go right over your shellac
with no problems.
Some of the pore fillers use a naptha type solvent in them, so make
sure you are wearing your mask when you apply it. The good news is
that the solvent based fillers dry very fast, (to me they are easier
to work with) and you can be finishing again in just a few hours.

Good luck!

Robert

Thanks Robert for the help. I will folow your instructions.
Virgle

"Virgle" wrote:
I just built a TV cabinet with ash wood. It turned out great but I am
having
trouble getting the grain filled. I am using Bulls Eye sanding sealer.
I don't want to do anything that will hide the grain of the wood. My
final
finish will be shellac. I have put on several coats of sealer sinding
lightly with 220 grit.
What am I doing wrong?

Doug is right. Sanding sealer is just that, sealer. It isn't pore
filler. IMOE, you have to put on something like 9+ mil of finish to
be able to sand/polish out the pores in a highly tubular grain like
ash or most nut woods.

Use a pore filler like pore-o-pack, or similar. It is finely ground
crystalline material of some sort, as they all are. Some are
quartzite, and some are silica based, but in the end they all do the
same. FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS CAREFULLY.

When the pores are filled, and sanded, start up with your shellac
again. It will go on as smooth as the surface you left behind in your
final sanding.

As far as sanding sealer goes, it is indeed dewaxed shellac. The waxy
polymers that are part of the shellac mix are decanted off, or
chemically removed to make sanding sealer. These waxy polymers are
known to inhibit the adhesion of other finishes and can cause
blotchiness, fisheyes, and all other types of problems. Hence their
removal.

The trade off is that the sanding sealer is not as resistant to
abrasion or water as regular "waxed" shellac, so it needs a top coat
of something if the surface is to be used or handled.

If you going to fill the pores on your project at this point, I would
suggest that you don't go with a water based pore filler. They take a
while to dry, and the water component will almost certainly make your
coats of shellac blush or water mark. Then of course, you will be
tasked with sanding the new markings out as well.

Get a solvent based material and it should go right over your shellac
with no problems.
Some of the pore fillers use a naptha type solvent in them, so make
sure you are wearing your mask when you apply it. The good news is
that the solvent based fillers dry very fast, (to me they are easier
to work with) and you can be finishing again in just a few hours.

Good luck!

Robert

wrote in message
...

"Virgle" wrote:
I just built a TV cabinet with ash wood. It turned out great but I am
having
trouble getting the grain filled. I am using Bulls Eye sanding sealer.
I don't want to do anything that will hide the grain of the wood. My
final
finish will be shellac. I have put on several coats of sealer sinding
lightly with 220 grit.
What am I doing wrong?

Doug is right. Sanding sealer is just that, sealer. It isn't pore
filler. IMOE, you have to put on something like 9+ mil of finish to
be able to sand/polish out the pores in a highly tubular grain like
ash or most nut woods.

Use a pore filler like pore-o-pack, or similar. It is finely ground
crystalline material of some sort, as they all are. Some are
quartzite, and some are silica based, but in the end they all do the
same. FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS CAREFULLY.

that's really interesting and has health implications. silica based dust is
REALLY bad to breathe.

btw: quartzite IS silica.

snip
Robert

Virgle wrote:

I just built a TV cabinet with ash wood. It turned out great but I am
having trouble getting the grain filled. I am using Bulls Eye sanding
sealer. I don't want to do anything that will hide the grain of the wood.
My final finish will be shellac. I have put on several coats of sealer
sinding lightly with 220 grit.
What am I doing wrong?
Any help appreciated.
Virgle


Is there a reason you need to fill the pores? I use ash as a secondary
wood for drawers and have been satisfied with a simple planing & scraping
(or sanding if that's your preference) followed by danish oil and Watco
Wipe-on Poly.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

"Virgle" wrote in message
...
I just built a TV cabinet with ash wood. It turned out great but I am
having trouble getting the grain filled. I am using Bulls Eye sanding
sealer.
I don't want to do anything that will hide the grain of the wood. My final
finish will be shellac. I have put on several coats of sealer sinding
lightly with 220 grit.
What am I doing wrong?
Any help appreciated.
Virgle

You can use 4F pumice to fill the pores... I'm in the midst a project built
of white oak and walnut and I filled the white oak grain with pumice (the
walnut was filled with sanded in BLO). It took several applications of the
pumice but it came out great and the fact that you already have shellac on
the piece isn't a problem. See the grain filling page at
http://www.milburnguitars.com/fpbannerframes.html

John

On Mar 20, 6:26*pm, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

SNIP

It took several applications of the
pumice but it came out great and the fact that you already have shellac on
the piece isn't a problem. See the grain filling page athttp://www.milburnguitars.com/fpbannerframes.html

John - what a great link! I have lots of notes and books with ideas
and techniques for french polishing. That guy does it with the least
fuss I think I have ever seen. And in his finishing, you can tell he
is classically trained in finishing. Good stuff.

That one went in the bookmarks!

Robert

wrote:
On Mar 20, 6:26 pm, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

SNIP

It took several applications of the
pumice but it came out great and the fact that you already have shellac on
the piece isn't a problem. See the grain filling page athttp://www.milburnguitars.com/fpbannerframes.html

John - what a great link! I have lots of notes and books with ideas
and techniques for french polishing. That guy does it with the least
fuss I think I have ever seen. And in his finishing, you can tell he
is classically trained in finishing. Good stuff.

That one went in the bookmarks!

Robert

Wow, no kiddin'! I bookmarked that one as well, but I also saved off
the pages locally in case the website ever disappears...

--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Mar 20, 5:36*pm, "charlie"
wrote:

btw: quartzite IS silica.

OK, I'll bite.

Quartzite has components of silica, but true quartzite is a
metamorphic rock composed of quartz sand and OTHER incidental
components (such as iron, etc.) occurring during the process of
creating this material. Due to these different components included in
this rock, quartzite has very low refractive properties, therefore
making it the less desirable for
simple pore filling.

True silica sand (river sand, not beach sand) can be found as almost
pure quartz from the process of erosion. Since it is a mineral
(igneous), it can also be harvested and ground from crystalline beds.
This results in superior reflectivity for the purposes of pore
filling.

But as a point of interest if you are that far along in this, then you
know that not all silica crystals are shaped the same, nor do the
fracture the same in the grinding process. This is particularly
apparent when comparing the quality of an end product that results in
grinding silica/quartz to quartzite/other elements.

Different grinding methods in the making of powdered pore fillers
result in different shaped crystals. Different sized and shaped
crystals (NOT weighted difference) result in different reflectivity,
which in turn affect the appearance of the finish.

I should have been more specific. Although I didn't say they were the
same or different, I see your point. Essentially, they are the same
formula, although created from a totally different process.

I didn't want to confuse the issue when looking for a filler due to
the fact there are many different kinds out there, but they all work
about the same.

Sometimes, less is more...

Robert

"Virgle" wrote:

I just built a TV cabinet with ash wood. It turned out great but I am
having
trouble getting the grain filled. I am using Bulls Eye sanding sealer.
I don't want to do anything that will hide the grain of the wood. My final
finish will be shellac. I have put on several coats of sealer sinding
lightly with 220 grit.
What am I doing wrong?

Trying to fill the grain!

Why not go for a natural open-grain finish?

Jeff

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net

wrote in message
...
On Mar 20, 6:26 pm, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

SNIP

It took several applications of the
pumice but it came out great and the fact that you already have shellac on
the piece isn't a problem. See the grain filling page
athttp://www.milburnguitars.com/fpbannerframes.html

John - what a great link! I have lots of notes and books with ideas
and techniques for french polishing. That guy does it with the least
fuss I think I have ever seen. And in his finishing, you can tell he
is classically trained in finishing. Good stuff.

That one went in the bookmarks!

Robert


I was looking for a "get it done" approach and this site struck a cord with
me. It's not that I don't have a couple hundred woodworking related books
sitting on the shelf behind me, it's that they all seemed to be lacking
something or made it seem way to complicated. Collectively they remind me of
the "expert" hired guns they bring into my work place. ;~) This site covered
it and well.

John

"Steve Turner" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Mar 20, 6:26 pm, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

SNIP

It took several applications of the
pumice but it came out great and the fact that you already have shellac
on
the piece isn't a problem. See the grain filling page
athttp://www.milburnguitars.com/fpbannerframes.html

John - what a great link! I have lots of notes and books with ideas
and techniques for french polishing. That guy does it with the least
fuss I think I have ever seen. And in his finishing, you can tell he
is classically trained in finishing. Good stuff.

That one went in the bookmarks!

Robert

Wow, no kiddin'! I bookmarked that one as well, but I also saved off the
pages locally in case the website ever disappears...


That's a good idea.... I'm going to do that myself!

John

I have yet to use a commercial grain filler. I have a can of Behlens in the
shop that I thought I was going to use, but haven't yet. I have a couple of
questions about them. I know that you can get and use colored fillers to
accentuate or otherwise manipulate the grain, but what if you want to keep
it natural, just smoothed. Do the non-colored (which I believe I bought)
fillers end up clear? Do they add some sort of shading? Obviously some
testing will give me the true result when I need to use it, but I have
always been curious about this.

SteveP.

wrote in message
...

"Virgle" wrote:
I just built a TV cabinet with ash wood. It turned out great but I am
having
trouble getting the grain filled. I am using Bulls Eye sanding sealer.
I don't want to do anything that will hide the grain of the wood. My
final
finish will be shellac. I have put on several coats of sealer sinding
lightly with 220 grit.
What am I doing wrong?

Doug is right. Sanding sealer is just that, sealer. It isn't pore
filler. IMOE, you have to put on something like 9+ mil of finish to
be able to sand/polish out the pores in a highly tubular grain like
ash or most nut woods.

Use a pore filler like pore-o-pack, or similar. It is finely ground
crystalline material of some sort, as they all are. Some are
quartzite, and some are silica based, but in the end they all do the
same. FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS CAREFULLY.

When the pores are filled, and sanded, start up with your shellac
again. It will go on as smooth as the surface you left behind in your
final sanding.

As far as sanding sealer goes, it is indeed dewaxed shellac. The waxy
polymers that are part of the shellac mix are decanted off, or
chemically removed to make sanding sealer. These waxy polymers are
known to inhibit the adhesion of other finishes and can cause
blotchiness, fisheyes, and all other types of problems. Hence their
removal.

The trade off is that the sanding sealer is not as resistant to
abrasion or water as regular "waxed" shellac, so it needs a top coat
of something if the surface is to be used or handled.

If you going to fill the pores on your project at this point, I would
suggest that you don't go with a water based pore filler. They take a
while to dry, and the water component will almost certainly make your
coats of shellac blush or water mark. Then of course, you will be
tasked with sanding the new markings out as well.

Get a solvent based material and it should go right over your shellac
with no problems.
Some of the pore fillers use a naptha type solvent in them, so make
sure you are wearing your mask when you apply it. The good news is
that the solvent based fillers dry very fast, (to me they are easier
to work with) and you can be finishing again in just a few hours.

Good luck!

Robert

On Mar 23, 10:15 am, "Highland Pairos"
wrote:

I have yet to use a commercial grain filler. I have a can of Behlens in the
shop that I thought I was going to use, but haven't yet.

Stir it well before using. It desegregates rapidly.

I have a couple of
questions about them. I know that you can get and use colored fillers to
accentuate or otherwise manipulate the grain, but what if you want to keep
it natural, just smoothed.

Colored pore fillers used to be used in furniture in the late 50s,
through the 60s. You or your parents may have a piece of furniture
with the black grain filled in a piece of some kind of fine nutwood,
and you can see the differences in the grain and he pores. I have
never seen a satisfactory shop application of colored pore fillers.

Do the non-colored (which I believe I bought)
fillers end up clear? Do they add some sort of shading? Obviously some
testing will give me the true result when I need to use it, but I have
always been curious about this.

You finish will wind up the color of the top coat itself. I have only
used pumice and Pore -o- Pac, and they don't impart any color.
HOWEVER.... unless you are french polishing the pore filler in the
wood
(see John's excellent link in this thread) I would be extra careful
about the application of the initial coat of the finish.

Some high solvent coatings like lacquers, conversion finishes and
heavily thinned shellacs have been known to pull up some of the pore
filler when applying with a brush or pad. First coat of any kind of
spray finish doesn't seem to bother any of the fillers, leading me to
believe it is the friction from application that pulls the pore filler
up.

If you are going to top coat with varnish, polyurethane, etc., that
don't have the high VOC carriers and solvents you should be fine.

If it were me, I would try this method:

Coat with sanding sealer first, then sand smooth. Not naked, but just
smooth. Apply the pore filler. With the sanding sealer on the wood,
it is more like spreading thin icing as the friction on the spreader
goes away. After drying, sand until smooth. Don't over sand! Don't
get to naked wood!

Apply another thin (quick!) coat of your sanding sealer to the wood.
Don't go over your work. Apply your coat, then get off that area. If
it goes on unevenly, plan on sanding the ridges off.

Let it dry over night. Sand smooth.

Apply your finish as normal. Should look great.

Report back here and let us know (with new thread!) how you did.

Robert

Thanks for the response. When I have the opportunity to use it I will
report back. However, I just started a new job after being unemployed for 6
months that has me getting up at 0200 and getting there at 0430. Today was
the first day that I left before 1600. Hence why I didn't read your
response until today.

SteveP.

wrote in message
...
On Mar 23, 10:15 am, "Highland Pairos"
wrote:

I have yet to use a commercial grain filler. I have a can of Behlens in
the
shop that I thought I was going to use, but haven't yet.

Stir it well before using. It desegregates rapidly.

I have a couple of
questions about them. I know that you can get and use colored fillers to
accentuate or otherwise manipulate the grain, but what if you want to
keep
it natural, just smoothed.

Colored pore fillers used to be used in furniture in the late 50s,
through the 60s. You or your parents may have a piece of furniture
with the black grain filled in a piece of some kind of fine nutwood,
and you can see the differences in the grain and he pores. I have
never seen a satisfactory shop application of colored pore fillers.

Do the non-colored (which I believe I bought)
fillers end up clear? Do they add some sort of shading? Obviously some
testing will give me the true result when I need to use it, but I have
always been curious about this.

You finish will wind up the color of the top coat itself. I have only
used pumice and Pore -o- Pac, and they don't impart any color.
HOWEVER.... unless you are french polishing the pore filler in the
wood
(see John's excellent link in this thread) I would be extra careful
about the application of the initial coat of the finish.

Some high solvent coatings like lacquers, conversion finishes and
heavily thinned shellacs have been known to pull up some of the pore
filler when applying with a brush or pad. First coat of any kind of
spray finish doesn't seem to bother any of the fillers, leading me to
believe it is the friction from application that pulls the pore filler
up.

If you are going to top coat with varnish, polyurethane, etc., that
don't have the high VOC carriers and solvents you should be fine.

If it were me, I would try this method:

Coat with sanding sealer first, then sand smooth. Not naked, but just
smooth. Apply the pore filler. With the sanding sealer on the wood,
it is more like spreading thin icing as the friction on the spreader
goes away. After drying, sand until smooth. Don't over sand! Don't
get to naked wood!

Apply another thin (quick!) coat of your sanding sealer to the wood.
Don't go over your work. Apply your coat, then get off that area. If
it goes on unevenly, plan on sanding the ridges off.

Let it dry over night. Sand smooth.

Apply your finish as normal. Should look great.

Report back here and let us know (with new thread!) how you did.

Robert

Congrats on the new job. Not the easiest thing to find these days.

On Apr 1, 1:22*pm, "Highland Pairos"
wrote:
Thanks for the response. *When I have the opportunity to use it I will
report back. *However, I just started a new job after being unemployed for 6
months that has me getting up at 0200 and getting there at 0430. *Today was
the first day that I left before 1600. *Hence why I didn't read
response until today.

SteveP.

wrote in message

...



On Mar 23, 10:15 am, "Highland Pairos"
wrote:

I have yet to use a commercial grain filler. *I have a can of Behlens in
the
shop that I thought I was going to use, but haven't yet.

Stir it well before using. *It desegregates rapidly.

I have a couple of
questions about them. *I know that you can get and use colored fillers to
accentuate or otherwise manipulate the grain, but what if you want to
keep
it natural, just smoothed.

Colored pore fillers used to be used in furniture in the late 50s,
through the 60s. *You or your parents may have a piece of furniture
with the black grain filled in a piece of some kind of fine nutwood,
and you can see the differences in the grain and he pores. *I have
never seen a satisfactory shop application of colored pore fillers.

Do the non-colored (which I believe I bought)
fillers end up clear? *Do they add some sort of shading? *Obviously some
testing will give me the true result when I need to use it, but I have
always been curious about this.

You finish will wind up the color of the top coat itself. *I have only
used pumice and Pore -o- Pac, and they don't impart any color.
HOWEVER.... unless you are french polishing the pore filler in the
wood
(see John's excellent link in this thread) I would be extra careful
about the application of the initial coat of the finish.

Some high solvent coatings like lacquers, conversion finishes and
heavily thinned shellacs have been known to pull up some of the pore
filler when applying with a brush or pad. *First coat of any kind of
spray finish doesn't seem to bother any of the fillers, leading me to
believe it is the friction from application that pulls the pore filler
up.

If you are going to top coat with varnish, polyurethane, etc., that
don't have the high VOC carriers and solvents you should be fine.

If it were me, I would try this method:

Coat with sanding sealer first, then sand smooth. *Not naked, but just
smooth. *Apply the pore filler. *With the sanding sealer on the wood,
it is more like spreading thin icing as the friction on the spreader
goes away. *After drying, sand until smooth. *Don't over sand! *Don't
get to naked wood!

Apply another thin (quick!) coat of your sanding sealer to the wood.
Don't go over your work. *Apply your coat, then get off that area. *If
it goes on unevenly, plan on sanding the ridges off.

Let it dry over night. *Sand smooth.

Apply your finish as normal. *Should look great.

Report back here and let us know (with new thread!) how you did.

Robert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ain't that the truth. Now I have to hope that the relationship with the
client hasn't been so soured by past oversight failures that I won't be
looking again in 2 months. I'll know in 12 days.

SteveP.

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
...
Congrats on the new job. Not the easiest thing to find these days.

On Apr 1, 1:22 pm, "Highland Pairos"
wrote:
Thanks for the response. When I have the opportunity to use it I will
report back. However, I just started a new job after being unemployed for
6
months that has me getting up at 0200 and getting there at 0430. Today was
the first day that I left before 1600. Hence why I didn't read
response until today.

SteveP.

wrote in message

...



On Mar 23, 10:15 am, "Highland Pairos"
wrote:

I have yet to use a commercial grain filler. I have a can of Behlens in
the
shop that I thought I was going to use, but haven't yet.

Stir it well before using. It desegregates rapidly.

I have a couple of
questions about them. I know that you can get and use colored fillers
to
accentuate or otherwise manipulate the grain, but what if you want to
keep
it natural, just smoothed.

Colored pore fillers used to be used in furniture in the late 50s,
through the 60s. You or your parents may have a piece of furniture
with the black grain filled in a piece of some kind of fine nutwood,
and you can see the differences in the grain and he pores. I have
never seen a satisfactory shop application of colored pore fillers.

Do the non-colored (which I believe I bought)
fillers end up clear? Do they add some sort of shading? Obviously some
testing will give me the true result when I need to use it, but I have
always been curious about this.

You finish will wind up the color of the top coat itself. I have only
used pumice and Pore -o- Pac, and they don't impart any color.
HOWEVER.... unless you are french polishing the pore filler in the
wood
(see John's excellent link in this thread) I would be extra careful
about the application of the initial coat of the finish.

Some high solvent coatings like lacquers, conversion finishes and
heavily thinned shellacs have been known to pull up some of the pore
filler when applying with a brush or pad. First coat of any kind of
spray finish doesn't seem to bother any of the fillers, leading me to
believe it is the friction from application that pulls the pore filler
up.

If you are going to top coat with varnish, polyurethane, etc., that
don't have the high VOC carriers and solvents you should be fine.

If it were me, I would try this method:

Coat with sanding sealer first, then sand smooth. Not naked, but just
smooth. Apply the pore filler. With the sanding sealer on the wood,
it is more like spreading thin icing as the friction on the spreader
goes away. After drying, sand until smooth. Don't over sand! Don't
get to naked wood!

Apply another thin (quick!) coat of your sanding sealer to the wood.
Don't go over your work. Apply your coat, then get off that area. If
it goes on unevenly, plan on sanding the ridges off.

Let it dry over night. Sand smooth.

Apply your finish as normal. Should look great.

Report back here and let us know (with new thread!) how you did.

Robert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -