Factual opinions accepted.

Hand waving generalizations without specific criticism to the points
given below will indicate the poster's lack of knowledge of kickback
and danger to fingers.

Forget what you know about RAS and its inherent danger when you pull
the blade towards you or when you rip with it.

This saw is NOT a RAS as configured.

1 What is the potential danger for kickback when using a slide table
and a screw hold down?

2 What is the potential danger to the operator's fingers if the
operator pushes the slide table from the sides of the table and there
is a slide stop well short of the blade?

This is the saw video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwzWDLnuxCs


Notice that the chips are not a problem.

Watch where the hands are placed.




..

wrote:

This saw is NOT a RAS as configured.

1 What is the potential danger for kickback when using a slide table
and a screw hold down?

I'd prefer to have another screw on the other side...you can see the
hold down warp as he tightens the single screw.

2 What is the potential danger to the operator's fingers if the
operator pushes the slide table from the sides of the table and there
is a slide stop well short of the blade?

Minimal.

One final suggestion would be to use a negative hook blade. As it
stands, the positive hook will tend to want to lift the workpiece from
the table, fighting the holddown. A negative hook blade would tend to
push the workpiece into the table and fence.

Chris

On Jan 29, 12:22*pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
wrote:
This saw is NOT a RAS as configured.

1 *What is the potential danger for kickback when using a slide table
and a screw hold down?

I'd prefer to have another screw on the other side...you can see the
hold down warp as he tightens the single screw.

2 *What is the potential danger to the operator's *fingers if the
operator pushes the slide table from the sides of the table and there
is a slide stop well short of the blade?

Minimal.

One final suggestion would be to use a negative hook blade. *As it
stands, the positive hook will tend to want to lift the workpiece from
the table, fighting the holddown. *A negative hook blade would tend to
push the workpiece into the table and fence.

Chris

The hook-angle of the teeth might be a little bit of help, but as long
as the rotation stays the same?
Wrong saw for the job. Period.

On Jan 29, 3:10*pm, Robatoy wrote:

The hook-angle of the teeth might be a little bit of help, but as long
as the rotation stays the same?
Wrong saw for the job. Period.

Just a quibble on this small point....

I don't think it is the wrong tool. I think the application of the
tool is wrong.

He should hold the piece to be cut with the tip of his index finger
(only) and rapidly move the saw into the wood before it can get away
while yelling "JUDO... CHOP!".

(Probably followed by a scream, but hey, no one said learning woodwork
wasn't without sacrifice!)

Robert

wrote in message
...
On Jan 29, 3:10 pm, Robatoy wrote:

The hook-angle of the teeth might be a little bit of help, but as long
as the rotation stays the same?
Wrong saw for the job. Period.

Just a quibble on this small point....

I don't think it is the wrong tool. I think the application of the
tool is wrong.

He should hold the piece to be cut with the tip of his index finger
(only) and rapidly move the saw into the wood before it can get away
while yelling "JUDO... CHOP!".

===========
Is it the saw that cuts? Or is it the saw causing me to move it so the wood
becomes cut? It is a circle, the no-saw way to cut. It was so in the
beginning. It is so again at the end. The saw does not cut. I cut the wood.
We are one. I have heard the sound of one hand clapping.

(My saw came wrapped in a fitted navy blue tog, emblazoned "Samurai!!!" in
gold ink. The exclamation points weren't really visible, but I know they're
there.)

On Jan 30, 3:37*am, "MikeWhy" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Jan 29, 3:10 pm, Robatoy wrote:

The hook-angle of the teeth might be a little bit of help, but as long
as the rotation stays the same?
Wrong saw for the job. Period.

Just a quibble on this small point....

I don't think it is the wrong tool. *I think the application of the
tool is wrong.

He should hold the piece to be cut with the tip of his index finger
(only) and rapidly move the saw into the wood before it can get away
while yelling "JUDO... CHOP!".

===========
Is it the saw that cuts? Or is it the saw causing me to move it so the wood
becomes cut? It is a circle, the no-saw way to cut. It was so in the
beginning. It is so again at the end. The saw does not cut. I cut the wood.
We are one. I have heard the sound of one hand clapping.

Like the Buddhist who walked up to a hot-dog vendor and said: "Make me
one with everything."
The vendor replied: "Change is coming."


(My saw came wrapped in a fitted navy blue tog, emblazoned "Samurai!!!" in
gold ink. The exclamation points weren't really visible, but I know they're
there.)

LOL

On Jan 30, 2:19*am, "
wrote:
On Jan 29, 3:10*pm, Robatoy wrote:

The hook-angle of the teeth might be a little bit of help, but as long
as the rotation stays the same?
Wrong saw for the job. Period.

Just a quibble on this small point....

I don't think it is the wrong tool. *I think the application of the
tool is wrong.

He should hold the piece to be cut with the tip of his index finger
(only) and rapidly move the saw into the wood before it can get away
while yelling "JUDO... CHOP!".

(Probably followed by a scream, but hey, no one said learning woodwork
wasn't without sacrifice!)

Robert

Besides, micro-surgery has come a long way.
In fact, just recently doctors in Africa grafted a baby elephant trunk
in place of a wrestler's penis which had been ripped off in an
alligator fight.
The wrestler in question, after many months of intense therapy and
healing, was interviewed by a team of doctors
When asked what his overall experience was, the wrestler commented
that his girlfriend was quite happy, but that every time he walks
across a lawn, the damn thing would shove a tuft of grass up his butt.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
In fact, just recently doctors in Africa grafted a baby elephant trunk
in place of a wrestler's penis which had been ripped off in an
alligator fight.
The wrestler in question, after many months of intense therapy and
healing, was interviewed by a team of doctors
When asked what his overall experience was, the wrestler commented
that his girlfriend was quite happy, but that every time he walks
across a lawn, the damn thing would shove a tuft of grass up his butt.

=============
That's about as good a parable as I've seen on the unintended consequences
of lawmaking.

On Jan 29, 12:22*pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
wrote:
This saw is NOT a RAS as configured.

1 *What is the potential danger for kickback when using a slide table
and a screw hold down?

I'd prefer to have another screw on the other side...you can see the
hold down warp as he tightens the single screw.

2 *What is the potential danger to the operator's *fingers if the
operator pushes the slide table from the sides of the table and there
is a slide stop well short of the blade?

Minimal.

One final suggestion would be to use a negative hook blade. *As it
stands, the positive hook will tend to want to lift the workpiece from
the table, fighting the holddown. *A negative hook blade would tend to
push the workpiece into the table and fence.

Chris

Chris,

Instead of pushing, another approach is for the operator to pull the
slide table towards himself from the opposite side.

The slide table itself would have a limit stop and could not hit the
operator in the stomach.

Also, the chips and/or loose teeth would fly away from the operator.


More better?


Stu

On Jan 30, 8:52*am, wrote:
On Jan 29, 12:22*pm, Chris Friesen wrote:



wrote:
This saw is NOT a RAS as configured.

1 *What is the potential danger for kickback when using a slide table
and a screw hold down?

I'd prefer to have another screw on the other side...you can see the
hold down warp as he tightens the single screw.

2 *What is the potential danger to the operator's *fingers if the
operator pushes the slide table from the sides of the table and there
is a slide stop well short of the blade?

Minimal.

One final suggestion would be to use a negative hook blade. *As it
stands, the positive hook will tend to want to lift the workpiece from
the table, fighting the holddown. *A negative hook blade would tend to
push the workpiece into the table and fence.

Chris

Chris,

Instead of pushing, another approach is for the operator to pull the
slide table towards himself from the opposite side.

The slide table itself would have a limit stop and could not hit the
operator in the stomach.

Also, the chips and/or loose teeth would fly away from the operator.

More better?

Stu

As long as the blade is above the support of the material cut, the
rotation should be such that the work want to go away from your face
and towards a fence.
The work should not be allowed to be stopped by the neighbour's fence
behind you.
There should only be as much blade as needed to make a cut, especially
when exposed to the naughty bits.
A table saw with a zero clearance mitre box is the better, nay, MUCH
better choice here. (Yes, even though the blade is spinning towards
you.)

And I have never seen a tooth come off a sawblade. Of course, during
demolition that happens all the time; but we're talking woodworking
here.
Of course, knocking a beautiful Japanese vernier caliper off the fence
onto a running blade will both destroy several teeth and the caliper
and then have the caliper fly through the air narrowly missing the
idiot's head....or so I'm told.

Much more better?

In article , wrote:

Instead of pushing, another approach is for the operator to pull the
slide table towards himself from the opposite side.

The slide table itself would have a limit stop and could not hit the
operator in the stomach.

Also, the chips and/or loose teeth would fly away from the operator.

More better?

Yes, obviously, much better. But the question still remains why are you going
to so much trouble? If you need a bunch of thin slices such as those depicted
in the video, why go to all this trouble to resaw them from an only slightly
thicker slice? Why not cut them off the end of a much larger piece? This whole
thing looks to me like a solution in search of a problem.

wrote:
Factual opinions accepted.

Hand waving generalizations without specific criticism to the points
given below will indicate the poster's lack of knowledge of kickback
and danger to fingers.

Forget what you know about RAS and its inherent danger when you pull
the blade towards you or when you rip with it.

This saw is NOT a RAS as configured.

1 What is the potential danger for kickback when using a slide table
and a screw hold down?

2 What is the potential danger to the operator's fingers if the
operator pushes the slide table from the sides of the table and there
is a slide stop well short of the blade?

This is the saw video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwzWDLnuxCs


Notice that the chips are not a problem.

Watch where the hands are placed.


You're going to get the same comments you got before.
Seems like you're looking for applause for your dangerous solution to a
non-existent problem.

I'll say it again, buy a band saw.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Jan 29, 12:28*pm, -MIKE- wrote:
wrote:
Factual opinions accepted.

Hand waving generalizations without *specific criticism to the points
given below will indicate the poster's lack of knowledge of kickback
and danger to fingers.

Forget what you know about RAS and its inherent danger when you pull
the blade towards you or when you rip with it.

This saw is NOT a RAS as configured.

1 *What is the potential danger for kickback when using a slide table
and a screw hold down?

2 *What is the potential danger to the operator's *fingers if the
operator pushes the slide table from the sides of the table and there
is a slide stop well short of the blade?

This is the saw video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwzWDLnuxCs

Notice that the chips are not a problem.

Watch where the hands are placed.

You're going to get the same comments you got before.
Seems like you're looking for applause for your dangerous solution to a
non-existent problem.

I'll say it again, buy a band saw.

--

* -MIKE-

* "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
* * *--Elvin Jones *(1927-2004)
* --
*http://mikedrums.com
*
* ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Error, I am sorry, I meant Chris, of course.

Chris, my apologies.

Mike, you deserve zero credit.


BoyntonStu

Mike, you deserve zero credit.


BoyntonStu


Enjoy the finger pointing, while you still have them.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

wrote in message
...
Factual opinions accepted.

Hand waving generalizations without specific criticism to the points
given below will indicate the poster's lack of knowledge of kickback
and danger to fingers.

Forget what you know about RAS and its inherent danger when you pull
the blade towards you or when you rip with it.

This saw is NOT a RAS as configured.

1 What is the potential danger for kickback when using a slide table
and a screw hold down?

2 What is the potential danger to the operator's fingers if the
operator pushes the slide table from the sides of the table and there
is a slide stop well short of the blade?

This is the saw video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwzWDLnuxCs


Notice that the chips are not a problem.

Watch where the hands are placed.

I glanced at the vid. Remind us, what problem does this solve?

writes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwzWDLnuxCs

Holy crap that looks dangerous! You've invented a miter saw, but with
the blade designed to throw things at you instead of away from you.
If *anything* goes wrong with the hold-down, it's going to spit the
remains at your face at full speed. Buy a miter saw! The jig looks
fine, I'd want a screw on both sides of the blade, but you really want
the blade turning the other way. Even if all works well, it will be
throwing the sawdust right at your mouth - wear a dust mask to protect
your lungs. Even with the RAS you should be able to swing the head
around so that the blade is pushing away from you.

As for doing that on a table saw, I've done it before. You just need
a thin enough push block and a zero clearance insert, and (as usual)
don't stand in line with the blade just in case. I could also do it
with my incra 5000 and a hold-down. The safest way to do it would be
to double-stick tape the small block to a larger one and just use a
miter fence. Or use a bandsaw or scroll saw.

On Jan 29, 1:29*pm, DJ Delorie wrote:
writes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwzWDLnuxCs

Holy crap that looks dangerous! *You've invented a miter saw, but with
the blade designed to throw things at you instead of away from you.
If *anything* goes wrong with the hold-down, it's going to spit the
remains at your face at full speed. *Buy a miter saw! *The jig looks
fine, I'd want a screw on both sides of the blade, but you really want
the blade turning the other way. *Even if all works well, it will be
throwing the sawdust right at your mouth - wear a dust mask to protect
your lungs. *Even with the RAS you should be able to swing the head
around so that the blade is pushing away from you.

As for doing that on a table saw, I've done it before. *You just need
a thin enough push block and a zero clearance insert, and (as usual)
don't stand in line with the blade just in case. *I could also do it
with my incra 5000 and a hold-down. *The safest way to do it would be
to double-stick tape the small block to a larger one and just use a
miter fence. *Or use a bandsaw or scroll saw.

FYI All radial saws are designed to rip that way.


Look at the factory installed splitter and anti-kick.


Apparently, you have little or no experience with ripping using a RAS.


Again, this is NOT a RAS as configured.


Thanks for the suggestion about another screw.

The fact is that the single screw holds the workpiece down with a
quite a lot of force.

I cant wiggle a piece free.

Any uplift/kickback would have to be on the left side of the hold down
and the force would have to be larger than the shear force of the
partially sawed plywood piece.

Cutting wood on this saw is like slicing meat on a deli saw.

The saw dust is deflected away from me by the piece of plastic mounted
on the blade guard.

BTW I can still count to 21 if I pull my pants down.

BoyntonStu

P.S. I was considering the idea of reversing the motor.

However, the thought of a spinning blade pulling the slide table with
me along for the ride, is bothersome.

Would it be beneficial to do so?

writes:
FYI All radial saws are designed to rip that way.

All radial arm saws are designed to push the wood *away* from the
operator when crosscutting.

Look at the factory installed splitter and anti-kick.

Look at the blade rotation. I don't care about everything else, it's
pointing towards your face.

Apparently, you have little or no experience with ripping using a RAS.

You are not ripping. You are crosscutting. At least, you've
installed a crosscut-style table. I wouldn't dare rip with a RAS for
exactly the reasons I wouldn't crosscut with your setup. Too
dangerous.

If I was faced with a situation where I had to use a RAS that way, I'd
wear the same protection as I do when turning, for the same reason.

Why not just use the existing crosscut fence, with your hold down
behind the blade, and move the saw away from you to cut? You get the
same benefits as your setup, but without as much danger. Saw off,
pull towards you, install wood behind it, saw on, push to cut, saw
off, remove wood.

The fact is that the single screw holds the workpiece down with a
quite a lot of force.

It holds one side of the workpiece down. The other side is not held
down at all, and can come loose after it's cut off.

Any uplift/kickback would have to be on the left side of the hold down
and the force would have to be larger than the shear force of the
partially sawed plywood piece.

Or your screw would have to break. Stranger things have happened.
Remember, safety is about preventing the unexpected, not just about
preventing the expected.

Cutting wood on this saw is like slicing meat on a deli saw.

Deli saw blades turn the other way. I own one.

The saw dust is deflected away from me by the piece of plastic mounted
on the blade guard.

Assuming (1) it catches it all, (2) you have no other drafts in your
workshop and (3) it never fails.

However, the thought of a spinning blade pulling the slide table with
me along for the ride, is bothersome.

That's the way a RAS normally crosscuts. RASs are dangerous, that's
why most of the people I know don't own one. There's very little you
can do with a RAS that you can't also do - more safely - with other
tools.

Thanks for the suggestion about another screw.

The fact is that the single screw holds the workpiece down with a
quite a lot of force.

I cant wiggle a piece free.



lmao. so your contention is that the hold down is safe because the force
you're applying while 'wiggling' the piece is the same or greater force that
the saw is able to exert if anything starts to go wrong. That is truly
funny.

Don't bother replying, you've got an answer for everything, and I don't
really care if you're doing something I consider to be unsafe so long as
*you* consider it to be safe.

jc

In article , wrote:
FYI All radial saws are designed to rip that way.

That's not a rip cut.


Look at the factory installed splitter and anti-kick.

Neither of which have any effect on this cut.


Apparently, you have little or no experience with ripping using a RAS.

Apparently, neither do you, or you'd recognize that that's *not* what you're
doing here.

Again, this is NOT a RAS as configured.

Quite true -- it's much less safe.


Thanks for the suggestion about another screw.

The fact is that the single screw holds the workpiece down with a
quite a lot of force.

It's not a symmetric force, though, which leaves the piece subject to
twisting.

I cant wiggle a piece free.

And you think therefore the saw can't???

Hint: that saw has at least a 1hp motor. You can't generate that much force
with your fingers. Tell me you can't pry the piece out with a crowbar, and
then I'll begin to consider that maybe the saw can't pull it out either.

Any uplift/kickback would have to be on the left side of the hold down
and the force would have to be larger than the shear force of the
partially sawed plywood piece.


Cutting wood on this saw is like slicing meat on a deli saw.

Sure it is. Uh-huh. Keep telling yourself that.

The saw dust is deflected away from me by the piece of plastic mounted
on the blade guard.

How well do you suppose that piece of plastic will do at deflecting a
kickback?

BTW I can still count to 21 if I pull my pants down.

BoyntonStu

P.S. I was considering the idea of reversing the motor.

However, the thought of a spinning blade pulling the slide table with
me along for the ride, is bothersome.

Would it be beneficial to do so?

That's about the only think I can think of that you could do to this setup to
make it less safe.

wrote:


By the way, I checked out your other videos and you have some really
cool stuff. I feel a kindred spirit with you in the inventor realm.

It would be a shame to lose a great, resourceful mind to shrapnel from
that saw contraption. :-)


Love the coffee roaster. I use hot air corn poppers.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:09:35 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Factual opinions accepted.

Hand waving generalizations without specific criticism to the points
given below will indicate the poster's lack of knowledge of kickback
and danger to fingers.

Forget what you know about RAS and its inherent danger when you pull
the blade towards you or when you rip with it.

This saw is NOT a RAS as configured.

1 What is the potential danger for kickback when using a slide table
and a screw hold down?

2 What is the potential danger to the operator's fingers if the
operator pushes the slide table from the sides of the table and there
is a slide stop well short of the blade?

This is the saw video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwzWDLnuxCs


Notice that the chips are not a problem.

Watch where the hands are placed.

1. I think chips could be a problem.
2. If the hold down fails it throws the piece directly at the
operator.
3. The blade is trying to lift the piece.

In general you would do better to put a hold down on a regular RAS
fence and pull the blade through the way a normal RAS is designed. The
rotation of a normal RAS blade pushes the piece down against the table
and back against the fence. If your blade is sharp and you approach
the piece with reasonable caution there is virtually no risk of the
piece flying about, and if it does it will go back, away from the
operator. It also directs almost all the chips away from the
operator. As configured in that video a carbide tooth coming loose is
likely to cause some injury.

I just don't see any benefit and several potential drawbacks. I may
have missed something, but what was the original problem you were
trying to solve with this setup?


--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

This whole setup gave me the willies. How did I get by all these
years of woodworking without a RAS? I noticed the sliding bed racked
a little as it was pushed into the blade. Having both hands on the
sled puts his body directly in front of a spinning blade without much
of a safety cover. It would be safer on a table saw with a
zero-clearance throat plate. A bandsaw, like another already stated,
is right tool for small pieces. One technique is to take two pencils
with erasers and maneuver a small piece over the bandsaw table into
the blade.

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
This whole setup gave me the willies. How did I get by all these
years of woodworking without a RAS? I noticed the sliding bed racked
a little as it was pushed into the blade. Having both hands on the
sled puts his body directly in front of a spinning blade without much
of a safety cover. It would be safer on a table saw with a
zero-clearance throat plate. A bandsaw, like another already stated,
is right tool for small pieces. One technique is to take two pencils
with erasers and maneuver a small piece over the bandsaw table into
the blade.

I remember this thread from a few weeks back and I was confused then also.
What are you trying to get to?
I am not being a jerk but I am confused as to what you are doing. In the
video you took a 3/4 piece of ply and cut it in half. So if I am correct
you created a jig than can produce little pieces of 3/8 plywood. I thought
the initial issue was to take a 5" x 5" piece of ply and make it 4" x 4".
Could you enlighten me?

Larry C

Larry C wrote:
"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
This whole setup gave me the willies. How did I get by all these
years of woodworking without a RAS? I noticed the sliding bed
racked
a little as it was pushed into the blade. Having both hands on the
sled puts his body directly in front of a spinning blade without
much
of a safety cover. It would be safer on a table saw with a
zero-clearance throat plate. A bandsaw, like another already
stated,
is right tool for small pieces. One technique is to take two
pencils with erasers and maneuver a small piece over the bandsaw
table into the blade.

I remember this thread from a few weeks back and I was confused then
also. What are you trying to get to?
I am not being a jerk but I am confused as to what you are doing.
In
the video you took a 3/4 piece of ply and cut it in half. So if I
am
correct you created a jig than can produce little pieces of 3/8
plywood. I thought the initial issue was to take a 5" x 5" piece of
ply and make it 4" x 4". Could you enlighten me?

What I don't understand is "why"?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In article , wrote:
Factual opinions accepted.

Hand waving generalizations without specific criticism to the points
given below will indicate the poster's lack of knowledge of kickback
and danger to fingers.

Forget what you know about RAS and its inherent danger when you pull
the blade towards you or when you rip with it.

This saw is NOT a RAS as configured.

Quite true. It looks to me more like an AWTH (accident waiting to happen).

1 What is the potential danger for kickback when using a slide table
and a screw hold down?

In general, low. In this specific setup, though, I think fairly high. You have
several things working against you:
- the single hold-down screw inevitably makes for less than perfectly even
clamping pressure
- such a thin narrow workpiece is easily susceptible to twisting, especially
when the clamping force is assymmetric...
- ... and even more so when there is no guide or stop that would prevent
twisting.

2 What is the potential danger to the operator's fingers if the
operator pushes the slide table from the sides of the table and there
is a slide stop well short of the blade?

Obviously very little.

This is the saw video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwzWDLnuxCs

Notice that the chips are not a problem.

Watch where the hands are placed.

Never mind the hands -- look where the operator is standing: directly in the
line of fire if *anything* goes wrong. Doesn't look like a wise idea to me.

This cut would be made much more safely with any of the following:
- table saw (with an appropriate guide fixture)
- band saw
- scroll saw
- hack saw
- coping saw

Do you not own any of the above?

And why the devil do you need to make a cut like this on such a small
workpiece, anyway?? If you need two tiny pieces, as shown in the video, you
don't _start_out_ with a small piece, for heaven's sake. If you need two
slices say 1 x 2 x 1/4" thick, you cut two 1/4" slices off the end of a
ten-inch 1x2 -- which can be done in perfect safety with a chop saw, radial
arm saw, or table saw, without the need for any sort of fixtures at all beyond
the standard guides and fences that come with the tools.