Due to a recent slow down in business as well as an unsatisfactory
relationship with my bookkeeping/tax firm, I have decided to take over
my own bookkeeping and bill paying chores for the business again.

I will still have my old firm take care of my taxes as there are some
things that only a good tax guy can know these days and I have found a
lot less problems occur with a professional preparer.

Anyway, I have set up my own books before a few times with my
different small companies. So long ago in fact, that I started with a
big green, General Ledger book. Over the years, I have kept my hand
in, but haven't wanted to be a full charge bookkeeper and my time was
best spent out in the field where my business and company worked.

About 15 years ago, I kept my own books and did them on Quicken. It
worked like a champ. It is (and remains) a single entry system, so it
it was easy to set up and use. I was literally able to set up the
program, the proper accounts, and entered about 500 transactions (the
year) in less than a week.

But now, the question seems to be between Quickbooks and Quicken Home
and Business. My tax guy uses Peachtree as well as the professional
package of Quickbooks, but would prefer my data in a Quickbooks or
Quicken format since my data will easily convert or be directly read
by her software.

I now write less than 25 checks month. so bookeeping and accts. rec/
pay are light. All equipment is fully depreciated. I don't
necessarily have to generate my own 1099s as the subs I use I have had
them on board so long the tax guys will kick out the 1009s and
transfer paperwork for nothing.

I don't have any direct employees, and when I do, I use a service that
charges per check and handles all accompanying paperwork for quarterly
transfers, etc.

So, having read all I can stand about the differences between Quicken
H&B and Quickbooks, I am still not sold on either. People really love
Quickbooks as it is infinitely flexible. But as a dual entry system
and a little clumsier interface, it is like killing an ant with a
sledghammer (remember, down to +/- 25 transactions a month!). Quicken
is easier to use, has a single entry setup (perfect for a less
sophisticated needs company) but has less reporting capability and
isn't as flexible in account setup.

I have visited online forums for each. I have visited online tech
groups for each. I have read comparisons for each. Both have their
staunch supporters and detractors. Me? Well, I'm just confused.

I am not a full charge bookkeeper, but keeping my own books is
something I did for years, and I still monitor these days anyway. I
just don't know which program to start with. I know I can get the
demos for both online for free, but a couple of third party tax sites
reported the demos from Intuit (maker of both packages) were buggy and
in some cases incomplete (really... how stupid is that?) and that you
can only apply the fixes to the full, registered version. Don't want
to play/test with buggy software.

So... does anyone have any insight into these two, or experiences with
just one? Something based on personal experience?

ANY thoughts would be appreciated.

Robert

wrote:
....
But now, the question seems to be between Quickbooks and Quicken Home
and Business. My tax guy uses Peachtree as well as the professional
package of Quickbooks, but would prefer my data in a Quickbooks or
Quicken format since my data will easily convert or be directly read
by her software.

That's significant potentially depending on how he's doing billing--is
it for individual actions/entries or simply a flat fee? Do you provide
detail transaction data or summary year end? Those kinds of issues
could influence choice.

I now write less than 25 checks month. so bookeeping and accts. rec/
pay are light. All equipment is fully depreciated. I don't
necessarily have to generate my own 1099s as the subs I use I have had
them on board so long the tax guys will kick out the 1009s and
transfer paperwork for nothing.

I don't have any direct employees, and when I do, I use a service that
charges per check and handles all accompanying paperwork for quarterly
transfers, etc.

So, having read all I can stand about the differences between Quicken
H&B and Quickbooks, I am still not sold on either. People really love
Quickbooks as it is infinitely flexible. But as a dual entry system
and a little clumsier interface, it is like killing an ant with a
sledghammer (remember, down to +/- 25 transactions a month!). Quicken
is easier to use, has a single entry setup (perfect for a less
sophisticated needs company) but has less reporting capability and
isn't as flexible in account setup.

I have visited online forums for each. I have visited online tech
groups for each. I have read comparisons for each. Both have their
staunch supporters and detractors. Me? Well, I'm just confused.
....
So... does anyone have any insight into these two, or experiences with
just one? Something based on personal experience?
....

I went w/ QB Pro back in '99 when went out on own consulting and back to
farm instead of consulting through a fronting firm.

About the same volume of transactions, payroll situation about the same,
altho have various depreciation and royalty interests, etc., that add
some complications.

I quit updating QB after 2000 and would _not_ put a new version on any
machine I had owing to Intuit's business practice and similar issues w/
updates, security (phone home), and sunsetting functionality policies.

I provide summary tax information to the tax guy in either text files or
even as printed informations rather than the full database that some
seem to use. I asked back then and for small accounts such as these
they really don't want more detail or the hassle of handling the full
database simply to generate tax returns.

The tax tables issue and payroll are two of the biggest complaints
always w/ Intuit so I think you're choice of outsourcing those is the
way to go. I'm somewhat smaller in that regard than you even; I just
write the checks manually and post them to the general ledger and those
summary accounts are all the tax firm needs to generate the 1099's.

If I were starting now, I'd probably just use an Excel spreadsheet to
mimic the old green ledger. I might consider Quicken if I didn't have
the pre-existing bias against Intuit that came from using their products
to date and what they've done since I got started.

HTH at least some...

--

Seems to me that Quicken can, at least, download the goodies to a disc in "dot delimited" format which your accountant can then upload to her system to produce your tax reports.

I know they do not like to do that, but, it can be done. I did it with "Mind your own business".

P D Q


wrote in message ...
Due to a recent slow down in business as well as an unsatisfactory
relationship with my bookkeeping/tax firm, I have decided to take over
my own bookkeeping and bill paying chores for the business again.

I will still have my old firm take care of my taxes as there are some
things that only a good tax guy can know these days and I have found a
lot less problems occur with a professional preparer.

Anyway, I have set up my own books before a few times with my
different small companies. So long ago in fact, that I started with a
big green, General Ledger book. Over the years, I have kept my hand
in, but haven't wanted to be a full charge bookkeeper and my time was
best spent out in the field where my business and company worked.

About 15 years ago, I kept my own books and did them on Quicken. It
worked like a champ. It is (and remains) a single entry system, so it
it was easy to set up and use. I was literally able to set up the
program, the proper accounts, and entered about 500 transactions (the
year) in less than a week.

But now, the question seems to be between Quickbooks and Quicken Home
and Business. My tax guy uses Peachtree as well as the professional
package of Quickbooks, but would prefer my data in a Quickbooks or
Quicken format since my data will easily convert or be directly read
by her software.

I now write less than 25 checks month. so bookeeping and accts. rec/
pay are light. All equipment is fully depreciated. I don't
necessarily have to generate my own 1099s as the subs I use I have had
them on board so long the tax guys will kick out the 1009s and
transfer paperwork for nothing.

I don't have any direct employees, and when I do, I use a service that
charges per check and handles all accompanying paperwork for quarterly
transfers, etc.

So, having read all I can stand about the differences between Quicken
H&B and Quickbooks, I am still not sold on either. People really love
Quickbooks as it is infinitely flexible. But as a dual entry system
and a little clumsier interface, it is like killing an ant with a
sledghammer (remember, down to +/- 25 transactions a month!). Quicken
is easier to use, has a single entry setup (perfect for a less
sophisticated needs company) but has less reporting capability and
isn't as flexible in account setup.

I have visited online forums for each. I have visited online tech
groups for each. I have read comparisons for each. Both have their
staunch supporters and detractors. Me? Well, I'm just confused.

I am not a full charge bookkeeper, but keeping my own books is
something I did for years, and I still monitor these days anyway. I
just don't know which program to start with. I know I can get the
demos for both online for free, but a couple of third party tax sites
reported the demos from Intuit (maker of both packages) were buggy and
in some cases incomplete (really... how stupid is that?) and that you
can only apply the fixes to the full, registered version. Don't want
to play/test with buggy software.

So... does anyone have any insight into these two, or experiences with
just one? Something based on personal experience?

ANY thoughts would be appreciated.

Robert

On Dec 6, 1:11*pm, "
wrote:
snip
ANY thoughts would be appreciated.

Robert

Robert,
I can honestly say I feel your pain. I likely wont have a tremendous
amount to add as you seem pretty well versed in both programs. We too
started with quicken a long time ago for our homebuilding and
remodeling business as well as other small side businesses. It was
fast and easy though in using just quicken home we had no ability to,
within one program, generate estimates and invoices as well as to do
detailed tracking incomes/expences for specific projects. This left us
generating estimates and invoices in Word leaving lots of legwork,
paperwork, and headache. Perhaps H&B solves this issue.

Perhaps 10 or 12 years ago our accountant nudged us towards quickbooks
pro likely to make his job easier. We made the switch. At this point I
have kept up with quickbooks but in our situation we are still barely
scratching the surface of its capabilities.

We are running a good bit more with regards to transactions and checks
than you state you will be dealing with. Our situation sounds similar
to yours in that payroll is handled outside as well as 1099's by the
accountant.

At times I miss the ease of use of quicken however the ability to
drill down into individual complex jobs, or even individual trades
(drywall, framing, etc) to see where you are making it and not is nice
in quickbooks. One thing that has always daunted me with quickbooks is
I have just never had a mind for accounting and getting it setup
correctly was and is a challenge. I didnt find the template businesses
in the setup to be of much help. Some other things that I find hard
with QBP is that often times I would like to provide the customer with
a single line estimate or invoice yet track all the details of the
project from estimate through invoice in the back ground. There are
likely ways to do this however the second job is not what I am looking
for.

I think the subject line you chose couldnt possibly be better. For us,
this is perhaps the single worst aspect of being in business. As if
its not bad enough to have to work a lot of hours in your specific
profession, you then have several hours, up to a second full time job
with regards to paperwork. Especially if you want it right and easy at
the end of the year. We are perpetually in the gray area where sub'ing
out the book keeping is more money we dont want to spend, yet we
rarely have enough time to keep up with it as it should be.

While it wouldnt help with book keeping, and our accountant wouldnt
like to hear it, this is why I am in favor of a use or flat tax. Any
reduction in paperwork and the burden of being in business would be a
big help.

Mark

wrote in

ANY thoughts would be appreciated.

I have used various accounting programs over the years. Most of them are no
longer in business.

I have found, both for myself and others, the best way to go is to find a
CPA who supports an accounting program. Have him set up your accounts and
have him on speed dial for any questions.

I personally like Peachtree. And it is well supported.

wrote

So... does anyone have any insight into these two, or experiences with
just one? Something based on personal experience?

Have/still have a number of business interests that fit your DIY style.

Mostly used QuickBooks until about two years ago. Intuit are opportunistic
*******s as far as I'm concerned.

The last straw was when I was _forced_ to upgrade or lose online access to
accounts ... we're talking about being forced to buy a new version at almost
full retail price. The latest versions won't even run on two of my machines
using Win2K ... IOW, if I want to run the latest version, I would also be
forced to upgrade two office computers, which still do the intended job for
everything else.

All the above notwithstanding, if I had to pick between QB and PT, it would
be QB hands down, particularly if you don't need to access your accounts
online and can live with just using QB as a ledger system and for reports.

IOW, I still use QB, for one company only, being familiar with it from years
of use and data for that particular enterprise, but will never, ever give
Intuit the satisfaction of buying an upgrade.

As for PT ... watched SWMBO struggle with it in her non-profit, which
grosses in the six figures, and I gave up trying to help her with it years
ago. Her accountant finally switched her over to QB a couple of years ago
and she has not asked me for help since, so it must be agreeing with her.

IMNHO, QuickBooks is much easier, and most importantly, takes much less of
your time than PT, and is the lesser of two evils, as much as I hate to say
it.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Dec 6, 12:48 pm, dpb wrote:

That's significant potentially depending on how he's doing billing--is
it for individual actions/entries or simply a flat fee?

That depends on the job. Flat fee billing for most of my work, BUT...
change orders require additional fractional billing that can be
attributed as a job cost to an individual job.

For example - a repair of XXX will require a nominal fee as
downpayment in order to satisfy the legal definition of a proper
contract. Still, if it is a one day job or half day job from a repeat
client, I don't get anything but the check at the end.

On the other hand, the kitchen remodel I am working on now has had 8
different change orders that need to be attributed to that project for
job costing.

Do you provide
detail transaction data or summary year end? Those kinds of issues
could influence choice.

As with everyone else that has a business, I have to have access to
individual transactions. My tax preparer wants to see the summary
reports, but wants to review my transactions on a spot basis to make
sure I get all the right pegs in the right holes. Both of the Intuit
programs will do this from what I understand.


I quit updating QB after 2000 and would _not_ put a new version on any
machine I had owing to Intuit's business practice and similar issues w/
updates, security (phone home), and sunsetting functionality policies.

Reading their respective forums and third party sites for small
businesses and accountants, you are not alone. They have mightily
****ed off a lot of people no matter what program of their you use.
Their sunsetting policy is so profoundly stupid it reeks of Microsoft
style arrogance.

Think about it; for comparative analysis in tax preparation, we were
all making money in '05, '06, and most of '07. This is the year
things tapered off. So if you cannot import old data into your
program, how will you know how the best way is to finalize a
depreciation schedule, review an income averaging strategy, etc.?

The tax tables issue and payroll are two of the biggest complaints
always w/ Intuit so I think you're choice of outsourcing those is the
way to go. I'm somewhat smaller in that regard than you even; I just
write the checks manually and post them to the general ledger and those
summary accounts are all the tax firm needs to generate the 1099's.

Part of my strategy has been the incorporation of paying my vendors
online. This not only lessens the paperwork generated but makes
payment fast, easy, ontime and I have the knowledge that I did
it and not someone's assistant.

Even Home Depot which I use as my major hardware store, will provide
detailed, online transactions with selectable invoice payment. All
the vendors supply printable transaction confirmation page and
reference number for your bookkeeping. Most keep your history online
(as a printable page) for 18 months.

Both of these Intuit programs will allow you to pay online and record
the overall payment to the vendor as a transaction simultaneously.
You need to keep the transaction details separately, though.

I might consider Quicken if I didn't have
the pre-existing bias against Intuit that came from using their products
to date and what they've done since I got started.

You are not alone. From what I read, the only reason some of the
folks are staying with either of those programs is because they are so
heavily invested in time and effort into the software and its setup.

For me, it should make a difference. Apparently the importation of
data capability stopped last year's version (2008) and it affected
only the data from 2006 and earlier. And truthfully, while I am
downsized, as long as I have the detailed reports as printables, that
doesn't bother me too much.

HTH at least some...

Absolutely. You brought up some good points, and they are helping me
refocus. I need to get this issue put to bed, and get out and promote
my business, not worry over my bookkeeping chores.

Robert

wrote:

On Dec 6, 12:48 pm, dpb wrote:

That's significant potentially depending on how he's doing billing--is
it for individual actions/entries or simply a flat fee?

That depends on the job. Flat fee billing for most of my work, BUT...
change orders require additional fractional billing that can be
attributed as a job cost to an individual job.

For example - a repair of XXX will require a nominal fee as
downpayment in order to satisfy the legal definition of a proper
contract. Still, if it is a one day job or half day job from a repeat
client, I don't get anything but the check at the end.

On the other hand, the kitchen remodel I am working on now has had 8
different change orders that need to be attributed to that project for
job costing.

Do you provide
detail transaction data or summary year end? Those kinds of issues
could influence choice.

As with everyone else that has a business, I have to have access to
individual transactions. My tax preparer wants to see the summary
reports, but wants to review my transactions on a spot basis to make
sure I get all the right pegs in the right holes. Both of the Intuit
programs will do this from what I understand.


I quit updating QB after 2000 and would not put a new version on any
machine I had owing to Intuit's business practice and similar issues w/
updates, security (phone home), and sunsetting functionality policies.

Reading their respective forums and third party sites for small
businesses and accountants, you are not alone. They have mightily
****ed off a lot of people no matter what program of their you use.
Their sunsetting policy is so profoundly stupid it reeks of Microsoft
style arrogance.

Think about it; for comparative analysis in tax preparation, we were
all making money in '05, '06, and most of '07. This is the year
things tapered off. So if you cannot import old data into your
program, how will you know how the best way is to finalize a
depreciation schedule, review an income averaging strategy, etc.?

The tax tables issue and payroll are two of the biggest complaints
always w/ Intuit so I think you're choice of outsourcing those is the
way to go. I'm somewhat smaller in that regard than you even; I just
write the checks manually and post them to the general ledger and those
summary accounts are all the tax firm needs to generate the 1099's.

Part of my strategy has been the incorporation of paying my vendors
online. This not only lessens the paperwork generated but makes
payment fast, easy, ontime and I have the knowledge that I did
it and not someone's assistant.

Even Home Depot which I use as my major hardware store, will provide
detailed, online transactions with selectable invoice payment. All
the vendors supply printable transaction confirmation page and
reference number for your bookkeeping. Most keep your history online
(as a printable page) for 18 months.

Both of these Intuit programs will allow you to pay online and record
the overall payment to the vendor as a transaction simultaneously.
You need to keep the transaction details separately, though.

I might consider Quicken if I didn't have
the pre-existing bias against Intuit that came from using their products
to date and what they've done since I got started.

You are not alone. From what I read, the only reason some of the
folks are staying with either of those programs is because they are so
heavily invested in time and effort into the software and its setup.

For me, it should make a difference. Apparently the importation of
data capability stopped last year's version (2008) and it affected
only the data from 2006 and earlier. And truthfully, while I am
downsized, as long as I have the detailed reports as printables, that
doesn't bother me too much.

HTH at least some...

Absolutely. You brought up some good points, and they are helping me
refocus. I need to get this issue put to bed, and get out and promote
my business, not worry over my bookkeeping chores.

Robert

Butting in here , my biggest complaint with all the account software companies
is the fact that they make it almost impossible to switch between packages ,
its about time that they were forced to write packages that other accounts
software could read and interprate instead of handcuffing you

On Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:11:37 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Due to a recent slow down in business as well as an unsatisfactory
relationship with my bookkeeping/tax firm, I have decided to take over
my own bookkeeping and bill paying chores for the business again.

I will still have my old firm take care of my taxes as there are some
things that only a good tax guy can know these days and I have found a
lot less problems occur with a professional preparer.

Anyway, I have set up my own books before a few times with my
different small companies. So long ago in fact, that I started with a
big green, General Ledger book. Over the years, I have kept my hand
in, but haven't wanted to be a full charge bookkeeper and my time was
best spent out in the field where my business and company worked.

About 15 years ago, I kept my own books and did them on Quicken. It
worked like a champ. It is (and remains) a single entry system, so it
it was easy to set up and use. I was literally able to set up the
program, the proper accounts, and entered about 500 transactions (the
year) in less than a week.

But now, the question seems to be between Quickbooks and Quicken Home
and Business. My tax guy uses Peachtree as well as the professional
package of Quickbooks, but would prefer my data in a Quickbooks or
Quicken format since my data will easily convert or be directly read
by her software.

I now write less than 25 checks month. so bookeeping and accts. rec/
pay are light. All equipment is fully depreciated. I don't
necessarily have to generate my own 1099s as the subs I use I have had
them on board so long the tax guys will kick out the 1009s and
transfer paperwork for nothing.

I don't have any direct employees, and when I do, I use a service that
charges per check and handles all accompanying paperwork for quarterly
transfers, etc.

So, having read all I can stand about the differences between Quicken
H&B and Quickbooks, I am still not sold on either. People really love
Quickbooks as it is infinitely flexible. But as a dual entry system
and a little clumsier interface, it is like killing an ant with a
sledghammer (remember, down to +/- 25 transactions a month!). Quicken
is easier to use, has a single entry setup (perfect for a less
sophisticated needs company) but has less reporting capability and
isn't as flexible in account setup.

I have visited online forums for each. I have visited online tech
groups for each. I have read comparisons for each. Both have their
staunch supporters and detractors. Me? Well, I'm just confused.

I am not a full charge bookkeeper, but keeping my own books is
something I did for years, and I still monitor these days anyway. I
just don't know which program to start with. I know I can get the
demos for both online for free, but a couple of third party tax sites
reported the demos from Intuit (maker of both packages) were buggy and
in some cases incomplete (really... how stupid is that?) and that you
can only apply the fixes to the full, registered version. Don't want
to play/test with buggy software.

So... does anyone have any insight into these two, or experiences with
just one? Something based on personal experience?

ANY thoughts would be appreciated.

Robert

Reading this reminds me why I went to work for someone else 8 years
ago after having been self-employed for 30 years.

Best of luck !

Lenny

On Dec 6, 1:14 pm, BDBConstruction wrote:

Robert,
I can honestly say I feel your pain.

Reading your post, it honestly sounds like you do.

We are running a good bit more with regards to transactions and checks
than you state you will be dealing with.

When/if I really get busy again, I will outsource the bookkeeping/bill
paying. As it is now, I am only saving $50 a month. When I am really
busy, that $50 looks like nothing, even to my tightfisted self. Many
services around here will do bookkeeping/checkwriting/vendor paying
for up to 50 entries a month for $50 if you also have them do your
taxes.

The problem with that is you have no way to review job costs, generate
your own reports (the $50 only includes two summary reports at the end
of each quarter - other reports are $$ more) and to immediately review
your financial status.

I have just never had a mind for accounting and getting it setup
correctly was and is a challenge.

Thankfully, for me it isn't hard. I realized about 1980 that I had
quit being a repair/remodel/house builder and become a business man.
When I was really cranking, I had spates of years where I never wore a
set of nail bags or carried a saw in the truck except for special
projects.

It is EASY to see that the reason most construction businesses fail is
their lack of accounting/tax planning skills.

Since I started so far back, I can always tell at any time (no matter
who keeps the books) how much money the company has in the bank. I
keep a notebook with me on the job and hand record any payments (and
keep the receipts) so that I can have a running total in my easy reach
(brief case) of what I am doing dollars in to dollars out.

project from estimate through invoice in the back ground. There are
likely ways to do this however the second job is not what I am looking
for.

ME NEITHER! At this slower time, I need to be talking up my business,
not locked away in my office trying to figure out why I can't
summarize a report properly or why an entry didn't show up on a
transaction summary.

And the way I have been keeping up with my billings and payables is so
easy it is silly. In my head, I know who owes me, as well as how much
I have been paid. I can find these numbers easily. But before we had
all the cool accounting software, for my larger jobs I started keeping
my contracts, invoices, change orders, contract addendums, etc., in a
document folder with the job name on it. I use my word processor.
Then at any time I can pull all that information. When I get paid for
the invoice, I just save the file with "PAID" at the end. With
descriptive titles, I could easily see what was going on by looking at
the job folder.

With repairs, I do it like we did in the late 1800's. I print the
invoice and put it in the accts. rec. tray. When it is paid, I put
the paid invoice in the manila folder for the job. When it is overdue
(rare - I have mostly repeat customers) I put it in the "overdue"
tray. It is as simple as managing an "in" and "out" box. One of my
old secretaries showed me that method.

But now that I will be doing all of it, I would rather do it all on
the machine and be done with it. I want it all done at one shot if
possible, and I can say good bye to the trays and the word processor
(except for contracts, etc.).

I think the subject line you chose couldnt possibly be better. For us,
this is perhaps the single worst aspect of being in business. As if
its not bad enough to have to work a lot of hours in your specific
profession, you then have several hours, up to a second full time job
with regards to paperwork. Especially if you want it right and easy at
the end of the year. We are perpetually in the gray area where sub'ing
out the book keeping is more money we dont want to spend, yet we
rarely have enough time to keep up with it as it should be.

I really think that really sums up most of us that are in the small
business arena. My tax adviser specializes in small business and in
particular, construction businesses. She agrees with me; most
contractors feel like they are successful if there is money in the
bank at the end of the month. That's all they want to know. When you
start a business you should have to take a test or go to a preparatory
class to let you know what you are in for with employees, quarterly
reports, transmittal forms, etc., just to keep up with the tax end of
things.

Any
reduction in paperwork and the burden of being in business would be a
big help.

Amen, brother. I have had more friends of mine than I can count go
broke, file bankruptcy, etc. just because they didn't know about all
the reports, taxes, etc. that creep into your life when you decide to
take the plunge. They always thought I was kidding when I told them
to go get a job that had regular hours, health insurance and a
retirement plan.

As a matter of fact, I have a contractor friend that will be filing
bankruptcy here in town in the next few months. He hung his shingle
on the wall and went to work against all my caution. He never
appreciated how much ancillary paperwork there would be or how much he
would have to learn.

Combine that with the "bar stool accountants" he chose to listen to,
and he is now in a tax mess that will take about 7 years to pay off.
He is a great guy, but just made a bad mistake and a couple of wrong
decisions that he researched carefully. That's all it took. The only
reason the IRS offered him a payout is because he burned up all of his
retirement (30 years at AB Dick) to live his dream of "owning his own
business" and doesn't have much left. **GRRRR**

OK.. commentary off. Back to the search for software...

Robert

wrote in message
...
Due to a recent slow down in business as well as an unsatisfactory
relationship with my bookkeeping/tax firm, I have decided to take over
my own bookkeeping and bill paying chores for the business again.

I will still have my old firm take care of my taxes as there are some
things that only a good tax guy can know these days and I have found a
lot less problems occur with a professional preparer.

Anyway, I have set up my own books before a few times with my
different small companies. So long ago in fact, that I started with a
big green, General Ledger book. Over the years, I have kept my hand
in, but haven't wanted to be a full charge bookkeeper and my time was
best spent out in the field where my business and company worked.

About 15 years ago, I kept my own books and did them on Quicken. It
worked like a champ. It is (and remains) a single entry system, so it
it was easy to set up and use. I was literally able to set up the
program, the proper accounts, and entered about 500 transactions (the
year) in less than a week.

But now, the question seems to be between Quickbooks and Quicken Home
and Business. My tax guy uses Peachtree as well as the professional
package of Quickbooks, but would prefer my data in a Quickbooks or
Quicken format since my data will easily convert or be directly read
by her software.

I now write less than 25 checks month. so bookeeping and accts. rec/
pay are light. All equipment is fully depreciated. I don't
necessarily have to generate my own 1099s as the subs I use I have had
them on board so long the tax guys will kick out the 1009s and
transfer paperwork for nothing.

I don't have any direct employees, and when I do, I use a service that
charges per check and handles all accompanying paperwork for quarterly
transfers, etc.

So, having read all I can stand about the differences between Quicken
H&B and Quickbooks, I am still not sold on either. People really love
Quickbooks as it is infinitely flexible. But as a dual entry system
and a little clumsier interface, it is like killing an ant with a
sledghammer (remember, down to +/- 25 transactions a month!). Quicken
is easier to use, has a single entry setup (perfect for a less
sophisticated needs company) but has less reporting capability and
isn't as flexible in account setup.

I have visited online forums for each. I have visited online tech
groups for each. I have read comparisons for each. Both have their
staunch supporters and detractors. Me? Well, I'm just confused.

I am not a full charge bookkeeper, but keeping my own books is
something I did for years, and I still monitor these days anyway. I
just don't know which program to start with. I know I can get the
demos for both online for free, but a couple of third party tax sites
reported the demos from Intuit (maker of both packages) were buggy and
in some cases incomplete (really... how stupid is that?) and that you
can only apply the fixes to the full, registered version. Don't want
to play/test with buggy software.

So... does anyone have any insight into these two, or experiences with
just one? Something based on personal experience?

ANY thoughts would be appreciated.

Robert

I personally use Quicken Home and Office. In 1986 I used and loved Dollars
and Sense, strictly a DOS program, bullet proof and simple to use. Quicken
came along and was strictly a SNAFU piece of crap, free for a few years IIRC
but how could you charge for software that did not require you to expense
the purchase and if you did not expense the purchase the reports told you
that you still had the money in the bank. Hummmm..
IMHO not until the last 5 or 6 years has Quicken been trustworthy.
I tried QuickBooks 10 years ago and whew, way overly complicated for my
needs, probably much better now however Quicken H&O does it for me. BTY I
use a separate Quicken file for the business end of my accounting, I don't
mix business accounts with personal accounts.
I don't totally rely on Quicken H&O to handle all of my business accounting,
I prefer to keep track of spending also on a spread sheet, I still don't
trust totally Quicken's reports. YMMV

Subject

Reminds me of when the tax codes were being rewritten back in the mid
80's.

My office land lord was an insurance agency.

I asked him what he planned to do about the upcoming tax code changes.

He answered, "Wait till the quit screwing around and then my
accountant will figure out how to f**k them. That's why I have him."

Made me realize that I was no longer qualified to do anything more
than balance my personal check book, much less do the company books.

YMMV

Lew

On Dec 6, 4:36*pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
Subject

Reminds me of when the tax codes were being rewritten back in the mid
80's.

My office land lord was an insurance agency.

I asked him what he planned to do about the upcoming tax code changes.

He answered, "Wait till the quit screwing around and then my
accountant will figure out how to f**k them. That's why I have him."

Made me realize that I was no longer qualified to do anything more
than balance my personal check book, much less do the company books.

I realised that many, many years ago. My dad is an accountant, a
proper one, and did all my books and filings until 2003 when I sold my
business.
Then, as my latest adventure grew and grew, I decided to hand over all
the bull**** to an accountant.
She's one sharp cookie and totally ethical. She doesn't believe the
gov't should ever get a dime that isn't coming to them as they can't
handle the dimes they are already getting.

My advice to Robert... get a service to do this for you. Sure you pay
for it, but, I gotta tellya... I sleep really well, and use my time
making money, not fretting over piles and piles of paperwork. I hate
paperwork, I suck at it.

I would NEVER even THINK about taking out my own appendix, WTF should
I even THINK that I am a bookkeeper/accountant?

I simply do not have time to look after nickels and dimes, it is
counterproductive. I'd much rather make dollars.

My advice to any small/medium business owners: "a man has got to know
his limitations."

"Robatoy" wrote

My advice to Robert... get a service to do this for you. Sure you pay
for it, but, I gotta tellya... I sleep really well, and use my time
making money, not fretting over piles and piles of paperwork. I hate
paperwork, I suck at it.

Yabbut, unless your "service" pays all your bills/operating expenses, and
with no bookkeeper on the payroll, you still must have records for the
accountant/service to work from.

Unless I'm mistaken, that is what Robert is in a quandary about.

And, as long as you must do that part, it is also nice to have instant,
onsite access to things like vendor information, and P&L and Net Worth
reports without having to go to a service to do so.

Besides, I trust NO one with access to my personal or business
accounts/money, but me! ... YMMV.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Dec 6, 5:29*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote

My advice to Robert... get a service to do this for you. Sure you pay
for it, but, I gotta tellya... I sleep really well, and use my time
making money, not fretting over piles and piles of paperwork. I hate
paperwork, I suck at it.

Yabbut, unless your "service" pays all your bills/operating expenses, and
with no bookkeeper on the payroll, you still must have records for the
accountant/service to work from.

Unless I'm mistaken, that is what Robert is in a quandary about.

And, as long as you must do that part, it is also nice to have instant,
onsite access to things like vendor information, and P&L and Net Worth
reports without having to go to a service to do so.

I have access to all that data on-line.


Besides, I trust NO one with access to my personal or business
accounts/money, but me! ... YMMV.

I still sign the cheques. I go to sign them once a week. The whole
deal takes a half hour, including any banter and advice and questions
I may have.
At that time, I hand them any invoices which I have issued and bills I
have received.
They have no access to my accounts, either on-line or otherwise.
In God we trust, the rest need my password or signature.



--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Dec 6, 3:54 pm, Robatoy wrote:


My advice to Robert... get a service to do this for you. Sure you pay
for it, but, I gotta tellya... I sleep really well, and use my time
making money, not fretting over piles and piles of paperwork. I hate
paperwork, I suck at it.

For the most part, I am great at paper work when it concerns my
money. I simply don't have mountains of unmanageable paperwork at
this time. When I did, I had a service. They handled it all and sent
me the reports I asked for at the end of each month's reconciliation.

I used to buy legal pads that I kept for all my large jobs. I put the
budget highlights on the first page or two, then kept a handwritten
log of all transactions (including labor) on the following pages. I
could literally pull out the correct legal pad and tell someone down
to the cent where I was on their job as far as costs went, including
the amount of money drawn and owed on the contract. I don't like
screwing that stuff, but I accept it as a part of business.

I would NEVER even THINK about taking out my own appendix, WTF should
I even THINK that I am a bookkeeper/accountant?

Maybe we are talking about two different things. Maybe we look at the
processes differently. I dunno. But I sure wouldn't put garden
variety bookkeeping up there with organ removal.

Note too, that I separate the two completely, DISTINCTLY different
processes of bookkeeping and tax preparation.

I simply do not have time to look after nickels and dimes, it is
counterproductive. I'd much rather make dollars.

Me, too. But at the opportunity to save some dough in these slower
times, I think it wouldn't hurt for me to pay the bills and mind the
store personally from the comfort of my computer in the evening whilst
I promote my business and do the work during the day.

My advice to any small/medium business owners: "a man has got to know
his limitations."

Believe me, I do. When I was building my first corporation, I knew
about the processes of organizing the accounting procedures, but
couldn't do it. I couldn't decide which tax election to take (C? S?)
which would help identify accounting procedures that the business,
which depreciation mode to take for capital purchases, and on and on.

I am a quick study, though. I took courses in accounting to make sure
I was on my game as I could see how many of my comrades had fallen to
the bloody hatchet of the IRS. I won't ever trust a bookkeeper or tax
preparer all the way anymore, no matter how talented they are or how
sincerely they treat my company. I ask a lot of questions and want
good answers.

But that is all geared towards tax preparation and strategy, not
bookkeeping.

All I am looking for is an accurate way to record and manipulate my
financial data as I need it. I still cannot do my company taxes at
this point (if it gets much slower it might be pretty easy though!) as
there are some tax points to consider from changing the status of my
company.

Bookkeeping? Should be a walk in the park with the right program. I
don't have to worry about depreciation schedules, quarterly deposits,
quarterly reports, employment commission reports, quarterly projected
earning deposits, etc.

I just need an intelligent program with some standard reporting
capabilities, ease of setup, and the ability to manipulate data into
some personal reports that I might want to see.

The taxes are still outsourced.

Robert

On Dec 6, 4:29 pm, "Swingman" wrote:


Yabbut, unless your "service" pays all your bills/operating expenses, and
with no bookkeeper on the payroll, you still must have records for the
accountant/service to work from.

Unless I'm mistaken, that is what Robert is in a quandary about.

And, as long as you must do that part, it is also nice to have instant,
onsite access to things like vendor information, and P&L and Net Worth
reports without having to go to a service to do so.

Exactly. Like you were reading my mind. (Don't mind the bourbon
smell. The lady of the house is off shopping....)

Robert

wrote in message
...

So, having read all I can stand about the differences between Quicken
H&B and Quickbooks, I am still not sold on either. People really love
Quickbooks as it is infinitely flexible. But as a dual entry system
and a little clumsier interface, it is like killing an ant with a
sledghammer (remember, down to +/- 25 transactions a month!). Quicken
is easier to use, has a single entry setup (perfect for a less
sophisticated needs company) but has less reporting capability and
isn't as flexible in account setup.

Just in general, flexibility is a dual edged sword. If it's something I
deeply care about, the upfront investment of setting it up just the way I
like might be worthwhile. For everything else, I'll adapt my way of working
to fit the way it wants to work, provided of course it does enough of what
needs to be done. It sounds to me like you don't really want to take a part
time job as your own bookkeeper. Don't they offer a trial period on both? I
would gamble on the simpler package, and see if I can fit my workflow to its
peculiarities. After all, how truly different is my business, and how
intractible is it in a "generic" ledger?

"MikeWhy" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...

So, having read all I can stand about the differences between Quicken
H&B and Quickbooks, I am still not sold on either. People really love
Quickbooks as it is infinitely flexible. But as a dual entry system
and a little clumsier interface, it is like killing an ant with a
sledghammer (remember, down to +/- 25 transactions a month!). Quicken
is easier to use, has a single entry setup (perfect for a less
sophisticated needs company) but has less reporting capability and
isn't as flexible in account setup.

Just in general, flexibility is a dual edged sword. If it's something I
deeply care about, the upfront investment of setting it up just the way I
like might be worthwhile. For everything else, I'll adapt my way of
working to fit the way it wants to work, provided of course it does enough
of what needs to be done. It sounds to me like you don't really want to
take a part time job as your own bookkeeper. Don't they offer a trial
period on both? I would gamble on the simpler package, and see if I can
fit my workflow to its peculiarities. After all, how truly different is my
business, and how intractible is it in a "generic" ledger?



I guess I am not with either of you guys on this. I took some accounting
classes in school and learned the old, manual double entry system. I have
also helped set up accounting programs for a number of businesses. As
complicated as it may seem, once the systems is set up, any questions can be
answered with a quick call to the CPA. I have often paid for an hour or two
in advance and this lasted me for a year or more.

Once you get it set up and have used it for awhile, it is simple.
Particularly with some support. Do what feels comfortable.

I need to track down specialized financial reporting software soon. It is an
area that I know nothing about and is not a part of any accounting program.
So I have a bit of a learning curve myself soon.

I should point out that some folks actually do everything with Excel
spreadsheets. Microsoft has a new accounting program that is based on
spreadsheets. So that is a logical upgrade for those folks.

Just like the way that many people handle their depreciation tracking, they
do it all in a spreadsheet. So anything unusual or unique, set up the
spreadsheet for that purpose. Then take the spreadsheet results and inter it
into the accounting program.

On Dec 7, 5:28*am, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:
"MikeWhy" wrote in message

...



wrote in message
...

So, having read all I can stand about the differences between Quicken
H&B and Quickbooks, I am still not sold on either. *People really love
Quickbooks as it is infinitely flexible. *But as a dual entry system
and a little clumsier interface, it is like killing an ant with a
sledghammer (remember, down to +/- 25 transactions a month!). *Quicken
is easier to use, has a single entry setup (perfect for a less
sophisticated needs company) but has less reporting capability and
isn't as flexible in account setup.

Just in general, flexibility is a dual edged sword. If it's something I
deeply care about, the upfront investment of setting it up just the way I
like might be worthwhile. For everything else, I'll adapt my way of
working to fit the way it wants to work, provided of course it does enough
of what needs to be done. It sounds to me like you don't really want to
take a part time job as your own bookkeeper. Don't they offer a trial
period on both? I would gamble on the simpler package, and see if I can
fit my workflow to its peculiarities. After all, how truly different is my
business, and how intractible is it in a "generic" ledger?

I guess I am not with either of you guys on this. *I took some accounting
classes in school and learned the old, manual double entry system. *I have
also helped set up accounting programs for a number of businesses. *As
complicated as it may seem, once the systems is set up, any questions can be
answered with a quick call to the CPA. I have often paid for an hour or two
in advance and this lasted me for a year or more.

Once you get it set up and have used it for awhile, it is simple.
Particularly with some support. *Do what feels comfortable.

I need to track down specialized financial reporting software soon. It is an
area that I know nothing about and is not a part of any accounting program.
So I have a bit of a learning curve myself soon.

I should point out that some folks actually do everything with Excel
spreadsheets. *Microsoft has a new accounting program that is based on
spreadsheets. So that is a logical upgrade for those folks.

Just like the way that many people handle their depreciation tracking, they
do it all in a spreadsheet. *So anything unusual or unique, set up the
spreadsheet for that purpose. Then take the spreadsheet results and inter it
into the accounting program.

I also got an e-mail from a company that is set up to handle all
facets of my business and personal management.
I will be preparing a file of all my accounts and passwords and send
them off to them soon.
I can suggest you try them and will post that link ...it's in Nigeria
someplace...

"Robatoy" wrote in message
I can suggest you try them and will post that link ...it's in Nigeria
someplace...

Loan me some of your tools will you? At least until you get that Nigerian
operation up and running.

wrote

Me, too. But at the opportunity to save some dough in these slower
times, I think it wouldn't hurt for me to pay the bills and mind the
store personally from the comfort of my computer in the evening whilst
I promote my business and do the work during the day.

My two most important criteria with bill paying these days, and since I
travel with a laptop and keep most permanent records on office computers, is
to be able to have instant access to everything from anywhere in the world,
from any connected computer, and to keep an online "master transaction" file
for each account that can be accessed from either the office or on the road
without the necessity of synchronizing multiple machines.

Thus I have basically evolved from paying bills through a bookkeeping
program (QB), that kept tracks of bills and sent online payment instructions
via an online connection to the appropriate bank account; to using the
option of being able to log onto most payee's websites and "scheduling"
their bill payment in advance, or doing so through my banks "online payment"
feature. Either of the latter two allow me to schedule payments for the
entire upcoming month for those bills which repeat, pay them as they are
due, and/or depending upon cash flow ... and I can do it from any computer,
blackberry device, etc.

I still use copies of bookkeeping/checkbook programs on my desktop and
laptop, mainly to keep track of balances, generating reports, etc.

To keep things more or less "synchronized", I use an exceedingly simple and
configurable online service called BudgetTracker, which my sole purpose for
using is as a "transaction master". BudgetTracker also allows an
automatically updated RSS feed, and/or calendar on my desktop of upcoming
bills ...basically an automatic "tickler file" and e-mail "reminder", all
for about $25/year.

(Intuit now has service called "QuickBooks Online", which I've only
experimented with the Quicken version, but it appears to be a better option
for business purposes than BudgetTracker, which is more for personal use,
but can be configured to service either with a bit of thought.).

The "QuickBooks Online" option may be attractive providing you don't mind
your financial data to be available to Intuit, by hook or by crook ... thus
far I've shied away from that option.

Keeping track of all the necessary logins and passwords was a real PITA
until Leon turned me on to program named "RoboForm".

I now keep the encrypted RoboForm file synchronized with my laptop, desktop,
and a keychain thumb drive. It also allows me to have a separate login and
randomly generated password for each site, with only one password to
remember.

The upshot is that these bill paying options actually take less than 30
minutes for all business and personal bill paying chores each month, from
anywhere, from any computer, and with no check writing.

Just some food for thought, but because I'm basically a one man shop as far
as operations go, YMMV.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Robatoy" wrote

I also got an e-mail from a company that is set up to handle all
facets of my business and personal management.
I will be preparing a file of all my accounts and passwords and send
them off to them soon.
I can suggest you try them and will post that link ...it's in Nigeria
someplace...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~
Unbelievable. I don't know if you are just being an asshole or you just
can't read. What I am doing is similar to what you do, at least what you
say you do. I am in total control and have all records at my office. I
enter the data. I own it. It doesn't go anywhere. The only time they even
see my data is when it comes time to do taxes. And even then, I do lots of
prep work to insure that there are no surprises.

Getting an expert to advise you doesn't meant you turn over everything to
them. I am much too independent to do that. Grow up.

On Dec 7, 1:35 pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~
Unbelievable. I don't know if you are just being an asshole or you just
can't read. What I am doing is similar to what you do, at least what you
say you do. I am in total control and have all records at my office.

Whoa... Lee...

I think without the smiley or emoticon you missed the fact he is just
trying to be funny. You know he isn't sending his stuff off to
somewhere in Nigeria.

Wait... unless it is in Canada somewhere...

;^)

Robert

On Dec 7, 2:35*pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote

I also got an e-mail from a company that is set up to handle all
facets of my business and personal management.
I will be preparing a file of all my accounts and passwords and send
them off to them soon.
I can suggest you try them and will post that link ...it's in Nigeria
someplace...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~
Unbelievable. *I don't know if you are just being an asshole or you just
can't read. *What I am doing is similar to what you do, at least what you
say you do. *I am in total control and have all records at my office. I
enter the data. I own it. It doesn't go anywhere. The only time they even
see my data is when it comes time to do taxes. And even then, I do lots of
prep work to insure that there are no surprises.

Getting an expert to advise you doesn't meant you turn over everything to
them. *I am much too independent to do that. *Grow up.

Lee? WhatThe****?

On Dec 7, 1:05 pm, "Swingman" wrote:

SNIP of good info

The upshot is that these bill paying options actually take less than 30
minutes for all business and personal bill paying chores each month, from
anywhere, from any computer, and with no check writing.

Just some food for thought, but because I'm basically a one man shop as far
as operations go, YMMV.

I appreciate it, too. I think your post illustrates what we as small
businessmen/contractors are doing to 1) keep an accurate finger (and
control) on the pulse of our small businesses, but 2) keep money in
our own pockets and stay competitive.

In these uncertain economic times, I feel "live without a net". So
both of the above mentioned points are very important to me. I must
say, the temptation to put everything on auto pilot is strong. All
vendors I use, even AMEX have auto pay features that will pay
everything for me as billed.

But in the end, that would probably make me too lazy to review
individual invoices for improper charges and the overall account for
activity. Over the years, I have been blown away by the things that
have been charged to my accounts by some of the smaller vendors so I
can't get out of that habit.

Like you, I can pay all vendors that I use routinely use in about a
half hour. That's not painful. I have a password encrypted file (NOT
an MS product!) on my main computer that opens up and lays out all
accounts for me, when they are due and all passwords, etc. When
finished, I close it up. And since I rarely go anywhere anymore, I am
always around to pay the bills.

At this point I am just looking for the easiest, simple solution to
integrate bill paying online (with some handwritten checks) and some
bookkeeping chores.

Robert

"Robatoy" wrote in message
...
On Dec 7, 2:35 pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote

I also got an e-mail from a company that is set up to handle all
facets of my business and personal management.
I will be preparing a file of all my accounts and passwords and send
them off to them soon.
I can suggest you try them and will post that link ...it's in Nigeria
someplace...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~
Unbelievable. I don't know if you are just being an asshole or you just
can't read. What I am doing is similar to what you do, at least what you
say you do. I am in total control and have all records at my office. I
enter the data. I own it. It doesn't go anywhere. The only time they even
see my data is when it comes time to do taxes. And even then, I do lots of
prep work to insure that there are no surprises.

Getting an expert to advise you doesn't meant you turn over everything to
them. I am much too independent to do that. Grow up.

Lee? WhatThe****?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK, OK, Sorry about that. I guess I am feeling particularly sensitive this
morning. I should have known that you weren't being nasty, just tasteless,
or something.

I promise not to go off on anybody else for the rest of the day.

wrote in message
...
On Dec 7, 1:35 pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~
Unbelievable. I don't know if you are just being an asshole or you just
can't read. What I am doing is similar to what you do, at least what you
say you do. I am in total control and have all records at my office.

Whoa... Lee...

I think without the smiley or emoticon you missed the fact he is just
trying to be funny. You know he isn't sending his stuff off to
somewhere in Nigeria.

Wait... unless it is in Canada somewhere...

;^)

Robert

Point take. Apology posted elsewhere.

On Dec 6, 3:27 pm, "Leon" wrote:

I personally use Quicken Home and Office.

What version are you using?

Quicken
came along and was strictly a SNAFU piece of crap, free for a few years IIRC
but how could you charge for software that did not require you to expense
the purchase and if you did not expense the purchase the reports told you
that you still had the money in the bank. Hummmm..

What a great memory!! I had forgotten all about that stooopid error on
their part. Now I remember that it made them a laughing stock for at
least a couple of years.

IMHO not until the last 5 or 6 years has Quicken been trustworthy.
I tried QuickBooks 10 years ago and whew, way overly complicated for my
needs, probably much better now however Quicken H&O does it for me.

Can you do job costing by invoice with Quicken H&O? I want to keep
the entries in the general ledger, but be able to tag them to be able
to pull them out for a report on a larger job.

Also, I can't find out if it has any provision for home office
entries. I know Quicken "Premier" does, and they make it a point to
sell that. But even though they recommend the Q HO for small
business, they don't advertise whether that account module is in there
or not. Since moving from a corporation to a LLC, my accountant has
advised me that part of my home (and all of my shop) can be expensed.

Do you bill from Q HO? Do you manage your accts. rec. and payable
from there?

Inquiring minds need to know, Leon! After all, you are the only one
that has hands on, front line experience with Q HO.

use a separate Quicken file for the business end of my accounting, I don't
mix business accounts with personal accounts.
I don't totally rely on Quicken H&O to handle all of my business accounting,
I prefer to keep track of spending also on a spread sheet, I still don't
trust totally Quicken's reports.

Any reason why? What reports does it generate that you don't care
for?

Personally, I think it is a good idea to be cautious of these
programs. I remember the Excel scandal when it couldn't add and move
numbers accurate on large spreadsheets. I remember when QuickBooks
had several accounting errors, including not only math, but the way
they handled accounts. Almost all of them goof up now and then.

I would certainly appreciate your input, Leon.

Robert

Lee Michaels wrote:

I promise not to go off on anybody else for the rest of the day.


Cart Blanche, gentlemen!

:-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
wrote
Snip


Keeping track of all the necessary logins and passwords was a real PITA
until Leon turned me on to program named "RoboForm".

I now keep the encrypted RoboForm file synchronized with my laptop,
desktop, and a keychain thumb drive. It also allows me to have a separate
login and randomly generated password for each site, with only one
password to remember.


Do you have Roboform 2 Go on a flash drive?????
After the hurricane and being with out electricity for 11 days. it was
difficult at best to access bank accounts on line.

Sandisk sells flash drives that are U3 compatible. U3 is a program that
resides on the flash drive and lets you down load and install FireFox,
Thunderbird, and Roboform 2 Go, to name just a few, on the flash drive. If
you loose that computer or electricity and need to use a friends computer to
do your banking the U3 programs allow you to do so with out leaving any
trace of you being on that computer. You can sync your favorites/Bookmarks,
and Roboform files to the flash drive and only have to take the flash drive
to any other computer and you are good to go.

----- Original Message -----
From:
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:29 PM
Subject: The ugly side of business - long


On Dec 6, 3:27 pm, "Leon" wrote:

I personally use Quicken Home and Office.

What version are you using?

2007, and a have used a couple of previous versions. The laterand some of
the lesser versions allow you to scan documents or down load documents to
attach to your transactions in the register. This is handy for a quick look
and reprint of the document if you need to do so.


Quicken
came along and was strictly a SNAFU piece of crap, free for a few years
IIRC
but how could you charge for software that did not require you to expense
the purchase and if you did not expense the purchase the reports told you
that you still had the money in the bank. Hummmm..

What a great memory!! I had forgotten all about that stooopid error on
their part. Now I remember that it made them a laughing stock for at
least a couple of years.

That "FLAW" was inexcusable IMHO.



IMHO not until the last 5 or 6 years has Quicken been trustworthy.
I tried QuickBooks 10 years ago and whew, way overly complicated for my
needs, probably much better now however Quicken H&O does it for me.

Can you do job costing by invoice with Quicken H&O? I want to keep
the entries in the general ledger, but be able to tag them to be able
to pull them out for a report on a larger job.

"I think" you can keep track of expenses, remember I supliment with a spread
sheet? I am not sure if you can actually pin any of them to an actual
customer invoice. That said, you could put the customer invoice number in
the memo section of the register when making an expense entry and probably
generate a report that looks for that invoice number in the memo field.




Also, I can't find out if it has any provision for home office
entries. I know Quicken "Premier" does, and they make it a point to
sell that. But even though they recommend the Q HO for small
business, they don't advertise whether that account module is in there
or not. Since moving from a corporation to a LLC, my accountant has
advised me that part of my home (and all of my shop) can be expensed.

It has always been my understanding that with each upgrade in Quickem that
you move to, you carry along all the features of the lesser version. IIRC
Premiere is a step down. If you are wanting to keep track of home office
expenses you could create an account for that. I keep my vehicles value in
seperate accounts for net worth reports.



Do you bill from Q HO? Do you manage your accts. rec. and payable
from there?

I only invoice. When the customer pays in full or partially I receive the
payment and attach to the outstanding balance on that invoice.



Inquiring minds need to know, Leon! After all, you are the only one
that has hands on, front line experience with Q HO.

LOL,,, I hope my answers have not been too simple however I don't want to
lead you to believe the the program will do something that it may not do. I
think with some creative thinking you can probably get it to do what you
want it to do.



use a separate Quicken file for the business end of my accounting, I
don't
mix business accounts with personal accounts.
I don't totally rely on Quicken H&O to handle all of my business
accounting,
I prefer to keep track of spending also on a spread sheet, I still don't
trust totally Quicken's reports.

Any reason why? What reports does it generate that you don't care
for?

Compared to the now 22 year old Dollars & Sence program that I used many
years ago, reports tend to be way too complicated to generate. Dollars &
Sence knew what you needed to know, Quicken is still a little lost in that
catagory. That said, if you know exactly what you want you can create and
save just about any report that you want to come up with. IMHO Quicken does
not actually have standard accounting reports readily available, you have to
think them up for yourself. If you are using Premiere and were happy with
that, you should not have a problem with H&O.
Bassicly I use the spread sheet reports for quick reference and to act as a
way to verify the Quicken results.


Personally, I think it is a good idea to be cautious of these
programs. I remember the Excel scandal when it couldn't add and move
numbers accurate on large spreadsheets. I remember when QuickBooks
had several accounting errors, including not only math, but the way
they handled accounts. Almost all of them goof up now and then.

:~) I am still using Lotus 123, 1997 version.


I would certainly appreciate your input, Leon.

Gosh Robert, not a problem at all, I hope my answers are of some help.

On Dec 7, 4:11*pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in message

...
On Dec 7, 2:35 pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:



"Robatoy" wrote

I also got an e-mail from a company that is set up to handle all
facets of my business and personal management.
I will be preparing a file of all my accounts and passwords and send
them off to them soon.
I can suggest you try them and will post that link ...it's in Nigeria
someplace...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~
Unbelievable. I don't know if you are just being an asshole or you just
can't read. What I am doing is similar to what you do, at least what you
say you do. I am in total control and have all records at my office. I
enter the data. I own it. It doesn't go anywhere. The only time they even
see my data is when it comes time to do taxes. And even then, I do lots of
prep work to insure that there are no surprises.

Getting an expert to advise you doesn't meant you turn over everything to
them. I am much too independent to do that. Grow up.

Lee? WhatThe****?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK, OK, Sorry about that. I guess I am feeling particularly sensitive this
morning. *I should have known that you weren't being nasty, just tasteless,
or something.

I promise not to go off on anybody else for the rest of the day. *

I should not have assumed that all of us have been approached by
Nigerians who have 20 million in the bank and need MY help to get it
out. All I would have to do to get 2 of that 20 mil, is to show good
faith by sending them 200 grand and my password and account
information or some such crap.
Anyway, nothing sadder than a joke falling flat on it's face, eh?
Better luck next time..G
But, but 'tasteless???' I ooze of taste, bro'. =o)

steve robinson wrote:
....
Butting in here , my biggest complaint with all the account software companies
is the fact that they make it almost impossible to switch between packages ,
its about time that they were forced to write packages that other accounts
software could read and interprate instead of handcuffing you

But of course that doesn't fit their interests of trying to lock in
customers. They, like MS have fallen prey to the problem there isn't a
large enough volume of new customers to generate the require revenue
level so their only way to make up revenue is by turning the product
into a continuous revenue stream by sunsetting features, "upgrades" and
online service charges.

If I were seriously looking other than for the aforementioned way of
simply using Excel or another spreadsheet to mimic a ledger, I'd look at
what there might be in the open source arena--I don't know that there is
anything competitive in features or not, but I'd surely do most
everything I could to avoid Intuit and their ilk.

--

wrote:
On Dec 6, 12:48 pm, dpb wrote:

That's significant potentially depending on how he's doing billing--is
it for individual actions/entries or simply a flat fee?

That depends on the job. Flat fee billing for most of my work, BUT...
change orders require additional fractional billing that can be
attributed as a job cost to an individual job.
....

I was asking how your CPA/tax guy charges -- does he have a flat fee for
preparation of your annual return or is it on an hourly rate including
data entry, audit, preparation, etc., etc., ...

What he does and how he charges might influence how I tried to provide
the data. My guy just does a flat fee from the summary info; if I
wanted more detail analysis from him I'd have to provide more info and
pay the piper.

detail transaction data or summary year end? Those kinds of issues
could influence choice.

As with everyone else that has a business, I have to have access to
individual transactions. My tax preparer wants to see the summary
reports, but wants to review my transactions on a spot basis to make
sure I get all the right pegs in the right holes. Both of the Intuit
programs will do this from what I understand.

That is so. QB is somewhat more powerful in that regard if you really
do use those reports. I don't much but do have the facility by entering
the detail.

That would be the strongest sell for living w/ the other aspects of
Intuit but it is a bugger if you're more than a braindead computer user
that likes to be able to control how stuff works and interacts w/ your
computer and the outside world (as I have gathered you are from past).


....

Think about it; for comparative analysis in tax preparation, we were
all making money in '05, '06, and most of '07. This is the year
things tapered off. So if you cannot import old data into your
program, how will you know how the best way is to finalize a
depreciation schedule, review an income averaging strategy, etc.?

That comparison from year-to-year is one of the things the CPA does
automatically except only on the tax data.

It's also why I'd be sorta' tempted to use the Excel format because one
can then do any comparison one chooses (at the cost of having to develop
the categories and some coding effort, of course). It depends on how
much detail you really feel you need.

....

For me, it should make a difference. Apparently the importation of
data capability stopped last year's version (2008) and it affected
only the data from 2006 and earlier. And truthfully, while I am
downsized, as long as I have the detailed reports as printables, that
doesn't bother me too much.

That part I don't know about -- as noted, I'm still using QB 2000 and it
has the ability to export to Excel and import iif files. The only thing
I don't have that I would like (but not sufficiently to upgrade to get
it) would be the API that has some additional hooks that allow for
automated transaction editing that can't be done via iif files. And,
while still consulting, there wasn't sufficient flexibility in the QB
invoices to supply the data in the format my primary client requested
nor for pricing for their proposals so had to use Excel for them anyway.
But, since they provided Excel macro workbooks, of the proper form,
that wasn't such a big deal for a single invoice/month. If had a lot of
clients, it could have been a hassle.

HTH at least some...

Absolutely. You brought up some good points, and they are helping me
refocus. I need to get this issue put to bed, and get out and promote
my business, not worry over my bookkeeping chores.

That's so...it's a big hassle for sure. Wish I knew a really decent answer.

--

dpb wrote:

steve robinson wrote:
...
Butting in here , my biggest complaint with all the account software
companies is the fact that they make it almost impossible to switch
between packages , its about time that they were forced to write packages
that other accounts software could read and interprate instead of
handcuffing you

But of course that doesn't fit their interests of trying to lock in
customers. They, like MS have fallen prey to the problem there isn't a
large enough volume of new customers to generate the require revenue
level so their only way to make up revenue is by turning the product
into a continuous revenue stream by sunsetting features, "upgrades" and
online service charges.

If I were seriously looking other than for the aforementioned way of
simply using Excel or another spreadsheet to mimic a ledger, I'd look at
what there might be in the open source arena--I don't know that there is
anything competitive in features or not, but I'd surely do most
everything I could to avoid Intuit and their ilk.

--

I've been using Moneydance www.moneydance.com for personal finances.
Not opensource, but they can import and export Quicken files (most
accounting packages are able to do this). Works great for personal
finances and is portable to Linux, Window, and Mac systems. However, it
won't do what the OP was asking as far as business application (at least I
don't think so, it might be worth his while to take a quick look).

To check out open source software, take a look at:
http://www.icewalkers.com and
www.tucows.com

Icewalkers is more oriented toward linux, but some of the java-based
software may be multi-platform.



--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

dpb wrote:
steve robinson wrote:
...
Butting in here , my biggest complaint with all the account
software
companies is the fact that they make it almost impossible to switch
between packages , its about time that they were forced to write
packages that other accounts software could read and interprate
instead of handcuffing you

But of course that doesn't fit their interests of trying to lock in
customers. They, like MS have fallen prey to the problem there isn't
a
large enough volume of new customers to generate the require revenue
level so their only way to make up revenue is by turning the product
into a continuous revenue stream by sunsetting features, "upgrades"
and online service charges.

If I were seriously looking other than for the aforementioned way of
simply using Excel or another spreadsheet to mimic a ledger, I'd
look
at what there might be in the open source arena--I don't know that
there is anything competitive in features or not, but I'd surely do
most everything I could to avoid Intuit and their ilk.

There is GnuCash. I have no idea if it is any good or not.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

I'd only comment that historically, the double entry accounting system was
devised as a way to catch clerical and arithmetic errors. If the books
didn't balance, you knew there was an error somewhere. On a computer, there
seems to be much less need for that kind of check.




--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

On Dec 7, 7:25 pm, "Leon" wrote:

2007, and a have used a couple of previous versions. The laterand some of
the lesser versions allow you to scan documents or down load documents to
attach to your transactions in the register. This is handy for a quick look
and reprint of the document if you need to do so.

This could be most handy when managing receipts. From time to time I
go places like HF, or even Big Lots to buy business related items such
as nitrile gloves, cheapie throw away touch up brushes, etc., that
require a check or cash. Having been through a couple of full office
audits, the IRS really doesn't tolerate all that crap of having a box
of receipts they can rummage through. The easier and the faster
information retrieval is, the better. I like the scanned, attached
receipt idea a lot.


"I think" you can keep track of expenses, remember I supliment with a spread
sheet? I am not sure if you can actually pin any of them to an actual
customer invoice. That said, you could put the customer invoice number in
the memo section of the register when making an expense entry and probably
generate a report that looks for that invoice number in the memo field.

AHA! The way I keep track of my invoices in my word processor would
work there as well. To make sure I can find them easily, I always
save the file (invoice) with the first five letters of the person's
name, then add a numeric date (when it was generated) and a XXX of
numbers in case I have to generated separate or multiple invoices on
the same day. So a client's invoice has my company initials, INV for
invoice and the info. Example: PRCINV Smith 120808 001 It
looks cryptic, but it really isn't. And I could set Quicken to search
for anything with "Smit" in it when setting up a report and still keep
my naming sequence consistent with my current method.

It has always been my understanding that with each upgrade in
Quickem that
you move to, you carry along all the features of the lesser version. IIRC
Premiere is a step down. If you are wanting to keep track of home office
expenses you could create an account for that. I keep my vehicles value in
seperate accounts for net worth reports.

Premiere is a step down, or at least sideways. Q HO is supposed to
have all Quicken offers in this line of programs.


I only invoice. When the customer pays in full or partially I receive the
payment and attach to the outstanding balance on that invoice.

Excellent. That sould make it easy enough to tie into an accounts
receivable column to generate outstanding balances owed.

Inquiring minds need to know, Leon! After all, you are the only one
that has hands on, front line experience with Q HO.

LOL,,, I hope my answers have not been too simple however I don't want to
lead you to believe the the program will do something that it may not do. I
think with some creative thinking you can probably get it to do what you
want it to do.

Will it wash my truck? Just kidding... I appreciate you not
"selling" the program. It sounds like it will do what I need. And
after reading the comment here, it looks like there is support from
actual hands on users, which makes it unusual for a piece of software
like this. Just in case it will help you, here it is:

http://www.quickencommunity.com


:~) I am still using Lotus 123, 1997 version.

OK... now I wasn't expecting that! Give me a minute to clean the
coffee off my monitor! And I thought I was a creature of habit.

For years I used an office suite called First Choice. It was the most
streamlined, elegant little DOS package (and piece of software) that I
had ever used. I started with it in '89, and the only reason I quit
using it was because it wouldn't import any kinds of graphics, and
since it was DOS only, they quit supporting drivers for modems and
printers. My reports looked too dated. But I used it until I
upgraded a couple laser printers ago for word processing, data base
work, data integration, spreadsheets, reporting, etc. It was just too
simple.


Gosh Robert, not a problem at all, I hope my answers are of some help.

I appreciate you taking the time to post a detailed response, Leon.
And rest assured, your answers are a great help. I think I will
download the Q HB online trial in the next week or two and dive in.

Robert

On Dec 7, 4:28 am, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:

I guess I am not with either of you guys on this. I took some accounting
classes in school and learned the old, manual double entry system. I have
also helped set up accounting programs for a number of businesses.

Took accounting classes in college, and I agree, it isn't that hard to
do a simple company's books. They KEY though, it is to get all the
information in the right places, correctly notated in the right entry
position, and easy for your tax preparer to manipulate if needed. As
I said before I did keep my books by hand, but there just isn't any
reason (to me) to it anymore. A General Ledger by hand, a trial
balance sheet, then a balance sheet by hand, monthly status reports by
hand, etc. can really chew up some time. Then you have to input your
results into another program to print them out as well.

On a properly set up bookkeeping program, this takes just minutes for
everything.

As
complicated as it may seem, once the systems is set up, any questions can be
answered with a quick call to the CPA. I have often paid for an hour or two
in advance and this lasted me for a year or more.

My Accountant charges flat fees for certain reports, and for different
types of reports. However, phone calls are different. She charges
$125 an hour for good phone, and a half hour is $65. Around here,
that is about par unless you find someone that is looking for
bookkeeping work or is just getting started.

The advantage of presenting my data in a recognized data format to my
tax person is that she can review my procedures for anomalies and for
errors. She considers this part of her tax data review chores and is
computed into the flat fee she charges for my tax returns. She will
not review any data entered on long green spreadsheets for free, and
if she doesn't review the data she will use the account summaries as
presented for tax preparation. It is so easy for her to review on the
computer she goes through it quickly. Hence, no charge.

The other aspect is that she is able to directly import my data into
her tax preparation program (she used Peachtree or Intuit products)
and that saves her the input time. The two programs I am looking at
allow for "an accountant review" in which she can change/manipulate/
correct entries as needed from her software (in other words, it's not
a totally proprietary format) to do tax forecasting analysis.

As simple as my current bookkeeping needs are at this time, I don't
think it should be necessary to call anyone for a simple set up. I
previously used Quicken 4 after deciding to move my books to computer,
but that was in the early 90's. It was wonderful. I will never go
back to the old green ledger, nor will I go back to designing
spreadsheets and doing cell references, and learning how to write cell
formulas to generate simple reports. I have spent too many hours
figuring out "cannot resolve circular differences" messages when
designing my estimating spreadsheets for projects.

Once you get it set up and have used it for awhile, it is simple.
Particularly with some support. Do what feels comfortable.

I think that's really the key. If it is simple and easy to use, it
won't be a chore.

I need to track down specialized financial reporting software soon. It is an
area that I know nothing about and is not a part of any accounting program.
So I have a bit of a learning curve myself soon.

I should point out that some folks actually do everything with Excel
spreadsheets. Microsoft has a new accounting program that is based on
spreadsheets. So that is a logical upgrade for those folks.

But... if I am reading it right Lee, it is really strongly geared
towards home users to manage home expenses, personal investment
portfolios, etc. It gets good reviews.

Just like the way that many people handle their depreciation tracking, they
do it all in a spreadsheet. So anything unusual or unique, set up the
spreadsheet for that purpose. Then take the spreadsheet results and inter it
into the accounting program.

But... if you can get a program that does all that for you, you will
not need to spreadsheet a particular event. And if it will perform a
particular operation in line with the most popular methods of the day,
why would you want to do data entry (and risk mistakes) twice? Plus,
the lure of easy reporting is pretty strong. If you can get a
template that suits your needs, you have now gotten away from burning
another block of time (although in some cases maybe a small one) that
you could use for something else.

Plus, I REALLY like the ease of having all my information in any
format I want at my fingertips at any time. No books or ledgers, no
manual lookups, no manual information compiling or number crunching,
nothing along those lines. Talk about a time saver...

Just my thoughts.

Robert