Some of you may know form my previous questions, I have been building
a large ‘barn style’ outbuilding, one half is an open car port, other
is to have a pair of doors fitted.

Roof is currently being tiled, in the next couple of weeks I want to
build a pair of softwood ‘garage’ doors.

Height is 2085 (82”) and width 3302 (130”) for the pair ..~ 1650
each

Been getting my original thoughts together … as per this sketch:
http://tinyurl.com/6befn2

Basically an outer frame which is rebated to take a tongue & groove
‘infill’, I would make my own t&g using full length loose tongue
splines, all well glued to each other, and into outer frame.
I would horizontal brace (on inside) at hinge handing points, and fit
a diagonal strut between the braces for racking strength … as per this
pic: http://tinyurl.com/5hu9vb

My initial thoughts on sizes of timber to use, and how to do it are in
the drawing http://tinyurl.com/5o83zd

Be interested in views on sizes of timbers, in particular the top/
bottom rails and the side stiles, joints etc.

Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support &
verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some
carpentry books. See: http://tinyurl.com/6fescs


Also no real idea yet on how to joint in the horizontal braces ...
seen dowels suggested in one book, other option I suppose could be a
half lap joint ?

"Osprey" wrote in message
...
Some of you may know form my previous questions, I have been building
a large ‘barn style’ outbuilding, one half is an open car port, other
is to have a pair of doors fitted.

Roof is currently being tiled, in the next couple of weeks I want to
build a pair of softwood ‘garage’ doors.

Height is 2085 (82”) and width 3302 (130”) for the pair ..~ 1650
each

Been getting my original thoughts together … as per this sketch:
http://tinyurl.com/6befn2

Basically an outer frame which is rebated to take a tongue & groove
‘infill’, I would make my own t&g using full length loose tongue
splines, all well glued to each other, and into outer frame.
I would horizontal brace (on inside) at hinge handing points, and fit
a diagonal strut between the braces for racking strength … as per this
pic: http://tinyurl.com/5hu9vb

My initial thoughts on sizes of timber to use, and how to do it are in
the drawing http://tinyurl.com/5o83zd

Be interested in views on sizes of timbers, in particular the top/
bottom rails and the side stiles, joints etc.

Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support &
verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some
carpentry books. See: http://tinyurl.com/6fescs


Also no real idea yet on how to joint in the horizontal braces ...
seen dowels suggested in one book, other option I suppose could be a
half lap joint ?

A couple of observations about the design, the inner splined panel can't be
glued to the
outer stiles, natural expansion and contraction would tear the doors apart.

Even though the bracing looks good in the drawings, I think they are much
too close together
to keep the doord from racking. You could build the doors and line the back
with quarter
inch plywood, that would keep them from ever sagging. This would also solve
the problem
of attaching the horizontal bracing as it would be mostly cosmetic.

Basilisk

In article
,
Osprey wrote:

Some of you may know form my previous questions, I have been building
a large Œbarn style¹ outbuilding, one half is an open car port, other
is to have a pair of doors fitted.

Roof is currently being tiled, in the next couple of weeks I want to
build a pair of softwood Œgarage¹ doors.

I hope you're not from somewhere that gets snow to any extent. Doors
such as this are a big pain when it snows...you have to not only shovel
out the driveway, but enough space to swing the doors open. This is
especially hard if they're at all close to the ground level, as you need
to shovel all the way down to the bottom then, where it tends to get
crusty and icy. It's quite rough on the doors when the shoveling lacks
in the least, too; scraping along the bottom applies lots of nasty
torque to parts that don't normally get it.

(I'm speaking from experience here...I find it a lot easier to park my
car outside during the winter and clean the car off than to clean out in
front of my garage, which thus ends up holding other stuff.)

Height is 2085 (82²) and width 3302 (130²) for the pair ..~ 1650
each

Been getting my original thoughts together Š as per this sketch:
http://tinyurl.com/6befn2

Basically an outer frame which is rebated to take a tongue & groove
Œinfill¹, I would make my own t&g using full length loose tongue
splines, all well glued to each other, and into outer frame.
I would horizontal brace (on inside) at hinge handing points, and fit
a diagonal strut between the braces for racking strength Š as per this
pic: http://tinyurl.com/5hu9vb

You have the diagonal brace going in different directions in your
various pictures, and it can make a pretty big difference in how
effective it is. You want it to go upwards from the hinge side of the
door, not downwards, so that it acts in compression to counteract the
sagging, not in tension. I think this is mostly because it's a lot
easier and more certain to make a solid joint when you have gravity
working with you, rather than against you. (Wood is also a fair bit
stronger in compression than in tension, but that's not a big factor
here.)

My initial thoughts on sizes of timber to use, and how to do it are in
the drawing http://tinyurl.com/5o83zd

Be interested in views on sizes of timbers, in particular the top/
bottom rails and the side stiles, joints etc.

Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support &
verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some
carpentry books. See: http://tinyurl.com/6fescs

Also no real idea yet on how to joint in the horizontal braces ...
seen dowels suggested in one book, other option I suppose could be a
half lap joint ?

On my garage, the doors are rather simpler and less ornamental,
consisting simply of planking (T&G, I suspect) screwed into two
horizontal and one diagonal brace on the inside. Planks and braces are
roughly 20mm thick and 80 or 100mm wide. This seems adequate, but I
wouldn't want much less thickness. The main problem areas actually seem
to be the hinge attachments, both to the door and to the wall; these
doors are pretty heavy.

I think you probably want your hinges about as far apart as you can
reasonably get them, and having three hinges would not be overkill.
Getting rid of the diagonal brace from the corner would help a lot here,
although obviously look less attractive. In any event, good long strap
hinges are nearly essential.

The idea of using some plywood product for the panels is a good one.
Grooves or battens to simulate individual planks can dress it up quite a
bit. Another good thought is to provide a smallish wheel towards the
middle of each door to help prevent sagging.

--
Andrew Erickson

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot
lose." -- Jim Elliot

"Andrew Erickson" wrote

The idea of using some plywood product for the panels is a good one.
Grooves or battens to simulate individual planks can dress it up quite a
bit. Another good thought is to provide a smallish wheel towards the
middle of each door to help prevent sagging.


The wheel idea is good. I have not seen this. I have seen them on gates and
have repaired/upgraded two gates in the last year. I did some searches and
found that what I was looking for was called a gate castor. I also found
that ace hardware carried them.

Whan I went to my local ace hardware store, they had never heard of them. I
told them to enter gate castor in their search field. It popped up. I had it
three days latr and did my repairs. I assume that you would need something
a little bigger for a big door like this. Although these castors were quite
robust.

On 2 Dec, 23:38, "basilisk" wrote:
"Osprey" wrote in message

...
Some of you may know form my previous questions, I have been building
a large ‘barn style’ outbuilding, one half is an open car port, other
is to have a pair of doors fitted.

Roof is currently being tiled, in the next couple of weeks I want to
build a pair of softwood ‘garage’ doors.

Height is 2085 *(82”) and width 3302 (130”) *for the pair ..~ 1650
each

Been getting my original thoughts together … as per this sketch:
* *http://tinyurl.com/6befn2

Basically an outer frame which is rebated to take a tongue & groove
‘infill’, I would make my own t&g using full length loose tongue
splines, all well glued to each other, and into outer frame.
I would horizontal brace (on inside) at hinge handing points, and fit
a diagonal strut between the braces for racking strength … as per this
pic: *http://tinyurl.com/5hu9vb

My initial thoughts on sizes of timber to use, and how to do it are in
the drawinghttp://tinyurl.com/5o83zd

Be interested in views on sizes of timbers, in particular the top/
bottom rails and the side stiles, joints etc.

Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support &
verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some
carpentry books. * *See:http://tinyurl.com/6fescs

Also no real idea yet on how to joint in the horizontal braces ...
seen dowels suggested in one book, other option I suppose could be a
half lap joint ?

A couple of observations about the design, the inner splined panel can't be
glued to the
outer stiles, natural expansion and contraction would tear the doors apart.

On 3 Dec, 01:00, Andrew Erickson wrote:
In article
,

*Osprey wrote:
Some of you may know form my previous questions, I have been building
a large Œbarn style¹ outbuilding, one half is an open car port, other
is to have a pair of doors fitted.

Roof is currently being tiled, in the next couple of weeks I want to
build a pair of softwood Œgarage¹ doors.

I hope you're not from somewhere that gets snow to any extent. *Doors
such as this are a big pain when it snows...you have to not only shovel
out the driveway, but enough space to swing the doors open. *This is
especially hard if they're at all close to the ground level, as you need
to shovel all the way down to the bottom then, where it tends to get
crusty and icy. *It's quite rough on the doors when the shoveling lacks
in the least, too; scraping along the bottom applies lots of nasty
torque to parts that don't normally get it.

(I'm speaking from experience here...I find it a lot easier to park my
car outside during the winter and clean the car off than to clean out in
front of my garage, which thus ends up holding other stuff.)

Height is 2085 *(82²) and width 3302 (130²) *for the pair ..~ 1650
each

Been getting my original thoughts together Š as per this sketch:
* *http://tinyurl.com/6befn2

Basically an outer frame which is rebated to take a tongue & groove
Œinfill¹, I would make my own t&g using full length loose tongue
splines, all well glued to each other, and into outer frame.
I would horizontal brace (on inside) at hinge handing points, and fit
a diagonal strut between the braces for racking strength Š as per this
pic: *http://tinyurl.com/5hu9vb

You have the diagonal brace going in different directions in your
various pictures, and it can make a pretty big difference in how
effective it is. *You want it to go upwards from the hinge side of the
door, not downwards, so that it acts in compression to counteract the
sagging, not in tension. *I think this is mostly because it's a lot
easier and more certain to make a solid joint when you have gravity
working with you, rather than against you. *(Wood is also a fair bit
stronger in compression than in tension, but that's not a big factor
here.)

My initial thoughts on sizes of timber to use, and how to do it are in
the drawinghttp://tinyurl.com/5o83zd

Be interested in views on sizes of timbers, in particular the top/
bottom rails and the side stiles, joints etc.

Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support &
verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some
carpentry books. * *See:http://tinyurl.com/6fescs

Also no real idea yet on how to joint in the horizontal braces ...
seen dowels suggested in one book, other option I suppose could be a
half lap joint ?

On my garage, the doors are rather simpler and less ornamental,
consisting simply of planking (T&G, I suspect) screwed into two
horizontal and one diagonal brace on the inside. *Planks and braces are *
roughly 20mm thick and 80 or 100mm wide. *This seems adequate, but I
wouldn't want much less thickness. *The main problem areas actually seem
to be the hinge attachments, both to the door and to the wall; these
doors are pretty heavy.

I think you probably want your hinges about as far apart as you can
reasonably get them, and having three hinges would not be overkill. *
Getting rid of the diagonal brace from the corner would help a lot here,
although obviously look less attractive. *In any event, good long strap
hinges are nearly essential.

The idea of using some plywood product for the panels is a good one. *
Grooves or battens to simulate individual planks can dress it up quite a
bit. *Another good thought is to provide a smallish wheel towards the
middle of each door to help prevent sagging.

--
Andrew Erickson


Intended using 600mm long strap hinges, based on manufactures guide
that strap hinge size should equal 1/3rd of door width.
Although I could increase to next size of 760mm.
Your comment on 3 hinges is something I had not thought about ... I'll
look more into that.

Castor wheels are failrly common here, but I'd have to check if
vertical movement of castor will work with slope of driveway,
originally discounted as they would tend to mark the drive in use.

"Osprey" wrote in message
...
On 2 Dec, 23:38, "basilisk" wrote:
"Osprey" wrote in message

...
Some of you may know form my previous questions, I have been building
a large ‘barn style’ outbuilding, one half is an open car port, other
is to have a pair of doors fitted.

Roof is currently being tiled, in the next couple of weeks I want to
build a pair of softwood ‘garage’ doors.

Height is 2085 (82”) and width 3302 (130”) for the pair ..~ 1650
each

Been getting my original thoughts together … as per this sketch:
http://tinyurl.com/6befn2

Basically an outer frame which is rebated to take a tongue & groove
‘infill’, I would make my own t&g using full length loose tongue
splines, all well glued to each other, and into outer frame.
I would horizontal brace (on inside) at hinge handing points, and fit
a diagonal strut between the braces for racking strength … as per this
pic: http://tinyurl.com/5hu9vb

My initial thoughts on sizes of timber to use, and how to do it are in
the drawinghttp://tinyurl.com/5o83zd

Be interested in views on sizes of timbers, in particular the top/
bottom rails and the side stiles, joints etc.

Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support &
verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some
carpentry books. See:http://tinyurl.com/6fescs

Also no real idea yet on how to joint in the horizontal braces ...
seen dowels suggested in one book, other option I suppose could be a
half lap joint ?

A couple of observations about the design, the inner splined panel can't
be
glued to the
outer stiles, natural expansion and contraction would tear the doors
apart.

Even though the bracing looks good in the drawings, I think they are much
too close together
to keep the doord from racking. You could build the doors and line the
back
with quarter
inch plywood, that would keep them from ever sagging. This would also
solve
the problem
of attaching the horizontal bracing as it would be mostly cosmetic.

Basilisk

I realise the point on bracing - but position of hinges forces
that .... the idea of lining inside with 1/4" ply seems a good one.
Can this be glued to farme ? .... and if so why would this not be a
problem compared to screwing in t&g (not arguing - just keen to
understand)

Regarding the 't&g' infill, would you bed them in with silicon, and
just screw them into frame?

Plywood doesn't expand and contract as much as lumber,
plus it will be on the inside of the door and more protected.
I would glue and screw the ply to the frame and leave the inner
panel floating, In a panel this wide, exposed to weather you may
have an inch or more in expansion and contraction from one season
to the next, if the panel can't float inside the frame, it will push the
frame apart.

You could dowel the ends of the panel boards into the frame top and
bottom and leave small gaps between each piece to allow for expansion
and contraction.

With changes in humidity, wood will change in thickness and width but
not much at all in lenght and nothing will stop it, you just have to allow
for it.

Basilisk

Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support &
verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some
carpentry books. See: http://tinyurl.com/6fescs

First you need to rotate the brace the other way to that it resists racking
in compression rather than tension.
Then, yes, I would but it up against both the rail and stile.

-Steve

On 3 Dec, 12:56, "StephenM" wrote:
Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support &
verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some
carpentry books. * *See:http://tinyurl.com/6fescs

First you need to rotate the brace the other way to that it resists racking
in compression rather than tension.
Then, yes, I would but it up against both the rail and stile.

-Steve

Yep ... are showb right way on 'outside' view, didn't reverse them
when I used cut & paste for inside view ..

have updated now to -
http://tinyurl.com/5fjzb3

On Dec 3, 7:46*am, "basilisk" wrote:
"Osprey" wrote in message

...
On 2 Dec, 23:38, "basilisk" wrote:



"Osprey" wrote in message

....
Some of you may know form my previous questions, I have been building
a large ‘barn style’ outbuilding, one half is an open car port, other
is to have a pair of doors fitted.

Roof is currently being tiled, in the next couple of weeks I want to
build a pair of softwood ‘garage’ doors.

Height is 2085 (82”) and width 3302 (130”) for the pair ..~ 1650
each

Been getting my original thoughts together … as per this sketch:
http://tinyurl.com/6befn2

Basically an outer frame which is rebated to take a tongue & groove
‘infill’, I would make my own t&g using full length loose tongue
splines, all well glued to each other, and into outer frame.
I would horizontal brace (on inside) at hinge handing points, and fit
a diagonal strut between the braces for racking strength … as per this
pic:http://tinyurl.com/5hu9vb

My initial thoughts on sizes of timber to use, and how to do it are in
the drawinghttp://tinyurl.com/5o83zd

Be interested in views on sizes of timbers, in particular the top/
bottom rails and the side stiles, joints etc.

Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support &
verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some
carpentry books. See:http://tinyurl.com/6fescs

Also no real idea yet on how to joint in the horizontal braces ...
seen dowels suggested in one book, other option I suppose could be a
half lap joint ?

A couple of observations about the design, the inner splined panel can't
be
glued to the
outer stiles, natural expansion and contraction would tear the doors
apart.

Even though the bracing looks good in the drawings, I think they are much
too close together
to keep the doord from racking. You could build the doors and line the
back
with quarter
inch plywood, that would keep them from ever sagging. This would also
solve
the problem
of attaching the horizontal bracing as it would be mostly cosmetic.

Basilisk

I realise the point on bracing - but position of hinges forces
that *.... the idea of lining inside with 1/4" ply seems a good one.
Can this be glued to farme ? *.... and if so why would this not be a
problem compared to screwing in t&g *(not arguing - just keen to
understand)

Regarding the 't&g' infill, would you bed them in with silicon, and
just screw them into frame?

Plywood doesn't *expand and contract as much as lumber,
plus it will be on the inside of the door and more protected.
I would glue and screw the ply to the frame and leave the inner
panel floating, In a panel this wide, exposed to weather you may
have an inch or more in expansion and contraction from one season
to the next, if the panel can't float inside the frame, it will push the
frame apart.

You could dowel the ends of the panel boards into the frame top and
bottom and leave small gaps between each piece to allow for expansion
and contraction.

With changes in humidity, wood will change in thickness and width but
not much at all in lenght and nothing will stop it, you just have to allow
for it.

Basilisk

I have a question that is not necessarily pertaining to the thread but
none the less,... With regards to this panel movement of over an inch
from season to season. As a builder/manufacturer of such a door how
would you deal with the finish issues related with such movement? As
homebuilders we are well aware of, and accustomed to the panel
movement of an interior six panel pine door. There is nothing worse
than coming back to a job a year later to find that the panels have
shrunk and left a 1/16" un-stained and un-urethaned band around each
panel of the door. We have our own ways of dealing with this but in a
situation like the one here, would you pre-finish the T&G to
accommodate the movement? What if the door was to be painted? Or
worse, painted on site. Oiling the door or some sort of natural finish
would allow for hitting the door when it shrinks however many other
(and more common) finishes will not handle 1" of movement.

Just a question,
Mark

In article ,
Andrew Erickson wrote:
Another good thought is to provide a smallish wheel towards the
middle of each door to help prevent sagging.

That's what I get for not rereading well before posting. What I meant
to say was "...a smallish wheel on the side of the door towards the
middle of the opening," i.e. opposite the hinge side. Sorry for any
confusion.

--
Andrew Erickson

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot
lose." -- Jim Elliot

.... As a builder/manufacturer of such a door how
would you deal with the finish issues related with such movement?

.... We have our own ways of dealing with this but in a
situation like the one here, would you pre-finish the T&G to
accommodate the movement? What if the door was to be painted? ...
.... 1" of movement.

.... Just a question,

In short, never design a structure with that wide of a foating pannel. There
are a couple of solutions:

1. Use plywood or similarly stable pannel material.
2. Divide the pannel into smaller pieces which will individually only move a
fraction of that potential 1". This is done with the addition of fixed
interior stiles (like most door F&P interior door construction) . If you are
using T& boards as large pannel, allow them to individually float, possible
tacking in center of each "slat". I have used both individual T&G with
interior stiles (together) for F&P assemblies for a furniture backs.

Personally, I always prefinish pannels.... because it's good practice, and
I'm a hobbyist and my time is free.

Also, pannel movement can be mitigated with stock selection. Generally,
quartersawn stock has about 1/2 the cross-pannel expansion of flatsawn
stock. Species selection can help too.

Regards,

Steve

On Dec 3, 4:46*am, "basilisk" wrote:
to keep the doord from racking. You could build the doors and line the
back
with quarter
inch plywood, that would keep them from ever sagging.

I realise the point on bracing - but position of hinges forces
that *.... the idea of lining inside with 1/4" ply seems a good one.

Plywood doesn't *expand and contract as much as lumber,
plus it will be on the inside of the door and more protected.
I would glue and screw the ply to the frame

If there are two layers, an outer siding and inner sheathing,
the outer WILL get wet, but you don't want the plywood
sheathing to weather (moisture cycling wil often cause
delamination). The solution is to put a layer between that
doesn't wick moisture (old style: tarpaper or new
style: Tyvek housewrap).

Plywood cups badly if you let it dampen. So, don't.