First, the good news -- I've been using Sharpton stones and the new
Veritas jig and get edges that cause the hair to fall off my arm when
testing an edge and 1.5 mil shavings from my #4 plane and 3 mil shavings
from my #5 1/2 plane. The Veritas jig makes sharpening repeatable so that
less re-shaping has to occur from sharpening to sharpening. One thing I
found is that one should not short the course stone inventory. I recently
added a #120 and #220 stone to my collection in order to reduce the amount
of effort and wear and tear on the #320. That turned out to be an
excellent decision; the two course stones quickly clean up edges and take
out nicks.

However, my frustration is the amount of time required to sharpen. The
first 3 grits go pretty quickly. However, starting at 1000 grit, the
process slows down to a crawl. I spent over 2 hours sharpening my #4 plane
blade this afternoon. It took a good 45 minutes to get all the scratch
marks from the 320 stone off at 1000. Same song, second verse going from
1000 to 3000. I spent some time making sure the stones were flat, so I
don't think that is causing the issue. Is this amount of time normal?
What does it take others to get to a shiny, shaving edge?

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

That's the opposite of my experience - most of my sharpening stones are
Shapton stones. I spend much more time on the course stones than on the
fine stones. I don't remember what grits I have but I start at 120 and
end at 8000. My 3000 stone isn't a Shapton, it's similar but it cuts
really well. I'm not near my stones now, so I can't check

A few possibilities come to mind. Maybe the scratches were from the 120
stone and didn't show up until you got to the 1000 stone?

Did you pick up some stray grit from either your stone flattening method or
from a coarser stone? The Shapton site says that you can carry grit under
your fingernails.

Are you keeping the finer stones clean? I never seem to get much of a slurry
with them and they seem to cut better when they are clean.

Bob S
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 19:53:30 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:


First, the good news -- I've been using Sharpton stones and the new
Veritas jig and get edges that cause the hair to fall off my arm when
testing an edge and 1.5 mil shavings from my #4 plane and 3 mil shavings
from my #5 1/2 plane. The Veritas jig makes sharpening repeatable so that
less re-shaping has to occur from sharpening to sharpening. One thing I
found is that one should not short the course stone inventory. I recently
added a #120 and #220 stone to my collection in order to reduce the amount
of effort and wear and tear on the #320. That turned out to be an
excellent decision; the two course stones quickly clean up edges and take
out nicks.

However, my frustration is the amount of time required to sharpen. The
first 3 grits go pretty quickly. However, starting at 1000 grit, the
process slows down to a crawl. I spent over 2 hours sharpening my #4 plane
blade this afternoon. It took a good 45 minutes to get all the scratch
marks from the 320 stone off at 1000. Same song, second verse going from
1000 to 3000. I spent some time making sure the stones were flat, so I
don't think that is causing the issue. Is this amount of time normal?
What does it take others to get to a shiny, shaving edge?

Bob Summers wrote:

That's the opposite of my experience - most of my sharpening stones are
Shapton stones. I spend much more time on the course stones than on the
fine stones. I don't remember what grits I have but I start at 120 and
end at 8000. My 3000 stone isn't a Shapton, it's similar but it cuts
really well. I'm not near my stones now, so I can't check


There were a couple of nicks on the blade I was sharpening. I don't think
I spent more than 5 minutes on the 120 stone before getting them completely
removed and an uniform scratch pattern established on the blade. That is
one of the really cool things about the Veritas jig, setup is uniformly
repeatable between sharpenings, so you don't spend a lot of time
re-establishing a bevel due to any kind of misalignment.


A few possibilities come to mind. Maybe the scratches were from the 120
stone and didn't show up until you got to the 1000 stone?


What I am seeing is a pattern being established starting near the center
of the blade and radiating toward the edges as I complete the process on
the 1000 stone. I am seeing the courser scratch patterns disappear, but
slowly.


Did you pick up some stray grit from either your stone flattening method
or
from a coarser stone? The Shapton site says that you can carry grit under
your fingernails.


I am very particular about cleaning off the blade, the jig, and my hands
between grits; I use paper towels to wipe everything down before moving up
in fineness. I also use latex gloves because I really don't like going for
days afterwards with blackened fingers and fingernails.


Are you keeping the finer stones clean? I never seem to get much of a
slurry with them and they seem to cut better when they are clean.


I keep spraying the finer stones down and occasionally wiping them with a
paper towel to remove any blackened slurry.

As mentioned above, for the most part, I get rid of all the scratches from
previous steps, the problem is that the process takes a very long time and
instead of being uniform across the blade, usually starts in the middle and
grows outward as the sharpening process continues. Maybe this is
indicative of not having the stones as flat as I should have them?


Bob S
On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 19:53:30 -0700, Mark & Juanita
wrote:


First, the good news -- I've been using Sharpton stones and the new
Veritas jig and get edges that cause the hair to fall off my arm when
testing an edge and 1.5 mil shavings from my #4 plane and 3 mil shavings
from my #5 1/2 plane. The Veritas jig makes sharpening repeatable so that
less re-shaping has to occur from sharpening to sharpening. One thing I
found is that one should not short the course stone inventory. I recently
added a #120 and #220 stone to my collection in order to reduce the amount
of effort and wear and tear on the #320. That turned out to be an
excellent decision; the two course stones quickly clean up edges and take
out nicks.

However, my frustration is the amount of time required to sharpen. The
first 3 grits go pretty quickly. However, starting at 1000 grit, the
process slows down to a crawl. I spent over 2 hours sharpening my #4
plane
blade this afternoon. It took a good 45 minutes to get all the scratch
marks from the 320 stone off at 1000. Same song, second verse going from
1000 to 3000. I spent some time making sure the stones were flat, so I
don't think that is causing the issue. Is this amount of time normal?
What does it take others to get to a shiny, shaving edge?

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
m...
However, my frustration is the amount of time required to sharpen. The
first 3 grits go pretty quickly. However, starting at 1000 grit, the
process slows down to a crawl. I spent over 2 hours sharpening my #4
plane
blade this afternoon. It took a good 45 minutes to get all the scratch
marks from the 320 stone off at 1000. Same song, second verse going from
1000 to 3000. I spent some time making sure the stones were flat, so I
don't think that is causing the issue. Is this amount of time normal?
What does it take others to get to a shiny, shaving edge?

I get very good results with King waterstones, 800 and 6000 grit. It's less
than a minute from dull to mirror razor's edge, if the stones are already
flat, wet, and waiting. They usually are, but the maintenance -- flattening
and soaking them through before use -- are the major drawbacks. This is the
kit I'm using:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/M...egory_Code=THW

$60 shipped with the 2 stones, holder, and Nagura.

Flattening is easiest when they're dry, but I just use 220 wet/dry stuck to
a granite surface plate with a film of water. Draw pencil lines on it before
you start so you can tell when you're done. When they're dry, the freshly
flattened area is a different color from the remaining hollows. They also
sell a flattening plate, but $40 buys a *lot* of wet/dry.

Scary sharp with wet/dry paper and the surface plate also works, and is
almost as fast. I bought the surface plate from that junk tool emporium
about 10 years ago for $30. Alas, I didn't find any on the HF site just now.
It might be worth hunting down, but thick float glass should work well
enough for the rest of the world. It might work for you too.

Could it be a matter of technique? Are the stone pores clogged? Is the bevel
properly hollow ground? Any way, flatten the backs on everything just once,
the first time. A few minutes on the 800 grit waterstone was plenty to
flatten everything except one very severely hollowed spokeshave blade (which
I never did bother to completely flatten). From there on, it usually takes
only a few strokes on the bevel to raise a full length burr. Switch
immediately to the 6000, and chase the burr a few cycles until you get bored
and believe that it will never end. I generally finish it with very short
strokes, less than a half inch, one on the bevel and once on the back, to
keep from raising the burr again. It really takes less than a minute, and
most of it is futzing with it trying to *not* raise the burr again. Grind
them to refresh the hollow once the shiny parts meet from repeated
sharpening. I don't use a jig. It's very easy to feel the hollow ground
bevel when it's flat on the stone.

The Frank Klausz video on hand tools was useful to me.

Mark & Juanita wrote:
First, the good news -- I've been using Sharpton stones and the new
Veritas jig and get edges that cause the hair to fall off my arm when
testing an edge and 1.5 mil shavings from my #4 plane and 3 mil shavings
from my #5 1/2 plane. The Veritas jig makes sharpening repeatable so that
less re-shaping has to occur from sharpening to sharpening. One thing I
found is that one should not short the course stone inventory. I recently
added a #120 and #220 stone to my collection in order to reduce the amount
of effort and wear and tear on the #320. That turned out to be an
excellent decision; the two course stones quickly clean up edges and take
out nicks.

However, my frustration is the amount of time required to sharpen. The
first 3 grits go pretty quickly. However, starting at 1000 grit, the
process slows down to a crawl. I spent over 2 hours sharpening my #4 plane
blade this afternoon. It took a good 45 minutes to get all the scratch
marks from the 320 stone off at 1000. Same song, second verse going from
1000 to 3000. I spent some time making sure the stones were flat, so I
don't think that is causing the issue. Is this amount of time normal?
What does it take others to get to a shiny, shaving edge?


320 to 1000 is big jump. I use 3M wet/dry sandpaper (400, 600, 800 &
1200, 1500, 2000) in between to cut down on the time. I buy half sheets
in 5 packs from an automotive painting supply store.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 22:38:05 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:

Bob Summers wrote:

A few possibilities come to mind. Maybe the scratches were from the 120
stone and didn't show up until you got to the 1000 stone?


What I am seeing is a pattern being established starting near the center
of the blade and radiating toward the edges as I complete the process on
the 1000 stone. I am seeing the courser scratch patterns disappear, but
slowly.

OK, let me try some diagnosis at a distance.

The symptom that you're having means that the surface of the blade and the
surface of the stone aren't mating. In particular, the center of the blade
is rubbing more than the edges. The possible reasons that I can think of a
- the surface of the stone is convex
- the surface of the previous stone is concave
- the surface of the blade is convex
- the Veritas jig isn't as stable as you think

In woodworking, the closest we come to precision lapping is sharpening. In
doing precision lapping (i.e. sliding two surfaces against each other with
abrasive embedded in one), there are really only two types of surfaces
that will mate in all orientations: spherical and some sort of saddle.
I've never studied topology, so I can't comment on the saddle shape but
I know that if you are making a surface plate, you need to be a little
careful to avoid getting a saddle instead of a flat.

What about flat surfaces? Don't they mate? Well, they would but when you
lap a surface, it really wants to be a section of a sphere. That's just
the way the world works. When making something flat, say like an optical
flat, it still wants to be a section of a sphere. You just need to make the
radius of the sphere large enough so that it's close enough to flat that the
curvature doesn't matter.

So, what's that got to do with your problem? When you flatten your sharpening
stones, it would be easy to get a slight convexity or concavity to the
stone. If the previous stone were concave, you could be grinding a slightly
convex surface on the blade. With a sharpening jig that maintains the angle
precisely, then it's possible that the when you move to a finer stone that is
flat (or convex), you'd have to remove metal from the center of the blade
before the edge of the blade can touch the stone.

How to check for flatness? Well, I'd start by getting the stones wet and
rubbing them together. Pull them apart and look at the abrasive slurry.
Do both stones look like they are making uniform contact? Ideally, cross
compare using 3 stones. If all 3 meet evenly, the odds are very good
(but not 100%) that all three stones are flat.

Another way to check for flatness is with a good straight edge and
a very gentle touch. First I'd put the straight edge on the stone and gently
see if the straight edge would rock at all. I'd do that at several points
along the length of the stone and along the diagonals. No rocking would mean
that the stone is fairly flat or concave.

The next step is to put the set things up so that there is a bright light
behind the straight edge and look for light coming between the stone and
the straight edge. If your straight edge is thick, you might need you
might need to put a small paper shim at each end of the straight edge to
make a gap. The narrower the gap is, the better as long as you can see
light coming through from the back. You're looking for a uniform gap.
With practice and a decent setup you could detect differences much smaller
than we're worried about (0.00005 of an inch is possible, though you almost
certainly don't have a straightedge that is that good). If I didn't have
a straight edge, I'd use a sheet of opaque paper.

The same sort of check-for-a-uniform-gap on the blade might be enlightening :-)
For the blade, I'd use a single edged razor blade as my straightedge. The
blade is pretty small, so it's hard to get a good setup. If the blade looks
flat, I wouldn't put much stock in it.

If your stones are flat, then there has to a technique issue.

I hold my blades by hand, so I can't comment much on the Veritas jig.
However, I could imagine that pressing too hard on the push stroke could
flex the jig a little and grind the heel of the blade more than the cutting
edge. I can imagine ways of pushing too hard on the jig that would grind
the cutting edge more than the heel, resulting in a convex surface on the
blade.

What happens to the scratch pattern when you move the blade side to side on
the coarser stone instead of back and forth? Does the scratch pattern change
uniformly? What happens to the scratch pattern if you go from the finer stone
back to the coarser stone?




Did you pick up some stray grit from either your stone flattening method
or
from a coarser stone? The Shapton site says that you can carry grit under
your fingernails.


I am very particular about cleaning off the blade, the jig, and my hands
...

As mentioned above, for the most part, I get rid of all the scratches from
previous steps, the problem is that the process takes a very long time and
instead of being uniform across the blade, usually starts in the middle and
grows outward as the sharpening process continues. Maybe this is
indicative of not having the stones as flat as I should have them?


The symptom of polishing from the center out is not what I'd expect if you
somehow got some coarser grit from a previous step. I'd check the stones
for flatness as described above.

Bob S

Nova wrote:

Mark & Juanita wrote:
.... snip
However, my frustration is the amount of time required to sharpen. The
first 3 grits go pretty quickly. However, starting at 1000 grit, the
process slows down to a crawl. I spent over 2 hours sharpening my #4
plane
blade this afternoon. It took a good 45 minutes to get all the scratch
marks from the 320 stone off at 1000. Same song, second verse going from
1000 to 3000. I spent some time making sure the stones were flat, so I
don't think that is causing the issue. Is this amount of time normal?
What does it take others to get to a shiny, shaving edge?


320 to 1000 is big jump.

That's been my opinion also. However, that is what Shapton sells. There
is nothing between 320 and 1000.


I use 3M wet/dry sandpaper (400, 600, 800 &
1200, 1500, 2000) in between to cut down on the time. I buy half sheets
in 5 packs from an automotive painting supply store.



--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Bob Summers wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 22:38:05 -0700, Mark & Juanita
wrote:

Bob Summers wrote:

A few possibilities come to mind. Maybe the scratches were from the 120
stone and didn't show up until you got to the 1000 stone?


What I am seeing is a pattern being established starting near the center
of the blade and radiating toward the edges as I complete the process on
the 1000 stone. I am seeing the courser scratch patterns disappear, but
slowly.

OK, let me try some diagnosis at a distance.

The symptom that you're having means that the surface of the blade and the
surface of the stone aren't mating. In particular, the center of the
blade
is rubbing more than the edges.

That's the conclusion I am coming up with, then at the finer grits, it
takes a very long time to remove the amount of material required to get
uniform scratch patterns across the tool.

The possible reasons that I can think of
a
- the surface of the stone is convex
- the surface of the previous stone is concave
- the surface of the blade is convex
- the Veritas jig isn't as stable as you think

a and b are probably the most likely. c is unlikely since the blade is
being well-shaped at the lower grits (assuming flatness on their part of
course). I don't think d is likely, the jig in use is:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=51868&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1
The setup gauge ensures repeatbility, the wide roller prevents tipping, and
the frame is sturdy enough that it holds the blade securely. Given that
the lower grits even up pretty quickly also makes me think this isn't the
issue.



In woodworking, the closest we come to precision lapping is sharpening.
In doing precision lapping (i.e. sliding two surfaces against each other
with abrasive embedded in one), there are really only two types of
surfaces that will mate in all orientations: spherical and some sort of
saddle. I've never studied topology, so I can't comment on the saddle
shape but I know that if you are making a surface plate, you need to be a
little careful to avoid getting a saddle instead of a flat.

What about flat surfaces? Don't they mate? Well, they would but when you
lap a surface, it really wants to be a section of a sphere. That's just
the way the world works. When making something flat, say like an optical
flat, it still wants to be a section of a sphere. You just need to make
the radius of the sphere large enough so that it's close enough to flat
that the curvature doesn't matter.

So, what's that got to do with your problem? When you flatten your
sharpening stones, it would be easy to get a slight convexity or concavity
to the
stone. If the previous stone were concave, you could be grinding a
slightly
convex surface on the blade. With a sharpening jig that maintains the
angle precisely, then it's possible that the when you move to a finer
stone that is flat (or convex), you'd have to remove metal from the center
of the blade before the edge of the blade can touch the stone.


I'm beginning to think this may be the issue. The one thing I haven't
checked thoroughly is the flatness of the lapping plate. If it is not
flat, then I'm not going to be getting the stones as flat as they need to
be.


How to check for flatness? Well, I'd start by getting the stones wet and
rubbing them together. Pull them apart and look at the abrasive slurry.
Do both stones look like they are making uniform contact? Ideally, cross
compare using 3 stones. If all 3 meet evenly, the odds are very good
(but not 100%) that all three stones are flat.


I've used a straight edge on the dry stones, it may be that I have allowed
too much tolerance in what I should consider "flat".


Another way to check for flatness is with a good straight edge and
a very gentle touch. First I'd put the straight edge on the stone and
gently
see if the straight edge would rock at all. I'd do that at several points
along the length of the stone and along the diagonals. No rocking would
mean that the stone is fairly flat or concave.

Lengthwise I'm seeing some concavity (20 mils or so). I need to look
across the width to see what kind of flatness is there.

.... snip of some other good stuff

Your idea of using the stones against one another has merit. That is one
way to get a truly flat surface, the only way 3 surfaces will mate is
through a plane, so I may need to do something of that sort to get the
surfaces I need.

If your stones are flat, then there has to a technique issue.

I hold my blades by hand, so I can't comment much on the Veritas jig.
However, I could imagine that pressing too hard on the push stroke could
flex the jig a little and grind the heel of the blade more than the
cutting
edge. I can imagine ways of pushing too hard on the jig that would grind
the cutting edge more than the heel, resulting in a convex surface on the
blade.

I'll have to check that out also


What happens to the scratch pattern when you move the blade side to side
on
the coarser stone instead of back and forth?

Given the jigging, I can't really test that out

Does the scratch pattern
change
uniformly? What happens to the scratch pattern if you go from the finer
stone back to the coarser stone?


The scratch patterns get uniform very quickly stepping back down. I
attribute that to the fact that much more material is removed much faster
when stepping down.


....snip


The symptom of polishing from the center out is not what I'd expect if you
somehow got some coarser grit from a previous step. I'd check the stones
for flatness as described above.


Thanks for the recommendations, you've given me some food for thought and
avenues to investigate here. Much appreciated


Bob S

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Mark & Juanita wrote:

What I am seeing is a pattern being established starting near the center
of the blade and radiating toward the edges as I complete the process on
the 1000 stone. I am seeing the courser scratch patterns disappear, but
slowly.


Are you changing angles when you change grits? I'd way bump the angle
up a degree when going to the 1000-grit, and another degree when going
to the highest grit. Doing this means that you need to remove _much_
less metal to remove the scratches left from the previous grit.

Of course some people don't like the multi-bevel, but try it and see
what you think.

Chris

Chris Friesen wrote:

Mark & Juanita wrote:

What I am seeing is a pattern being established starting near the
center
of the blade and radiating toward the edges as I complete the process on
the 1000 stone. I am seeing the courser scratch patterns disappear, but
slowly.


Are you changing angles when you change grits? I'd way bump the angle
up a degree when going to the 1000-grit, and another degree when going
to the highest grit. Doing this means that you need to remove _much_
less metal to remove the scratches left from the previous grit.


Haven't tried that. I'll have to try it

Of course some people don't like the multi-bevel, but try it and see
what you think.

Chris

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:20:25 -0700, Mark & Juanita
wrote:

Chris Friesen wrote:

Mark & Juanita wrote:

What I am seeing is a pattern being established starting near the
center
of the blade and radiating toward the edges as I complete the process on
the 1000 stone. I am seeing the courser scratch patterns disappear, but
slowly.


Are you changing angles when you change grits? I'd way bump the angle
up a degree when going to the 1000-grit, and another degree when going
to the highest grit. Doing this means that you need to remove _much_
less metal to remove the scratches left from the previous grit.


Haven't tried that. I'll have to try it

Of course some people don't like the multi-bevel, but try it and see
what you think.

Chris

If you aren't putting on a microbevel when you sharpen, it will
naturally take longer to get the entire bevel finely honed than if you
do add a microbevel. So that can be a part of what is taking so long.
It should still only take minutes however, without the microbevel.

Bob Summers wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 22:38:05 -0700, Mark & Juanita
wrote:

Bob Summers wrote:

A few possibilities come to mind. Maybe the scratches were from the 120
stone and didn't show up until you got to the 1000 stone?


What I am seeing is a pattern being established starting near the center
of the blade and radiating toward the edges as I complete the process on
the 1000 stone. I am seeing the courser scratch patterns disappear, but
slowly.

OK, let me try some diagnosis at a distance.

The symptom that you're having means that the surface of the blade and the
surface of the stone aren't mating. In particular, the center of the
blade
is rubbing more than the edges. The possible reasons that I can think of
a
- the surface of the stone is convex
- the surface of the previous stone is concave
- the surface of the blade is convex
- the Veritas jig isn't as stable as you think

OK, I had a chance to get out to the shop this afternoon and did some
checking. It looks like the 320 stone is concave across its width by about
3 to 4 mils. The other stones are flat to within 1.5 mils or less. This
explains the problem -- the 320 stone is shaping the front of the bevel
such that the successive grits have to lap down about 3 mils of material,
no wonder this is taking so long. I checked the lapping plate, it is flat
across the width, so it looks like some time on the plate will be needed to
get the 320 down to the flatness needed. One of the potential root causes
is that the slurry may have built up in the center of the lapping plate,
resulting in more stone being removed there than at the edges. Will also
need to watch that when lapping the stone next time.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Mark & Juanita writes:



320 to 1000 is big jump.

That's been my opinion also. However, that is what Shapton sells. There
is nothing between 320 and 1000.

The Shapton GlassStones have a better transition in that respect.

220
500
1000
2000
4000
8000
16000
32000

I see on http://shaptonstones.com/index.php?m...&cPath=164_166
then also have 3000 and 6000

Mark & Juanita wrote:


First, the good news -- I've been using Sharpton stones and the new
Veritas jig and get edges that cause the hair to fall off my arm when
testing an edge and 1.5 mil shavings from my #4 plane and 3 mil shavings
from my #5 1/2 plane. The Veritas jig makes sharpening repeatable so that
less re-shaping has to occur from sharpening to sharpening.
It does indeed do that. But so does learning to sharpen without a jig.
There is certainly nothing wrong with using a jig; they are invaluable
(for me) for blades with a very short bevel for which I can't get the
knack of feeling when the bevel is flat on the stone. But for the bulk
of plane irons and chisels, I find it SO much faster to sharpen
freehand that I do it more often.

One thing I
found is that one should not short the course stone inventory. I recently
added a #120 and #220 stone to my collection in order to reduce the amount
of effort and wear and tear on the #320. That turned out to be an
excellent decision; the two course stones quickly clean up edges and take
out nicks.

However, my frustration is the amount of time required to sharpen. The
first 3 grits go pretty quickly. However, starting at 1000 grit, the
process slows down to a crawl. I spent over 2 hours sharpening my #4 plane
blade this afternoon. It took a good 45 minutes to get all the scratch
marks from the 320 stone off at 1000. Same song, second verse going from
1000 to 3000. I spent some time making sure the stones were flat, so I
don't think that is causing the issue. Is this amount of time normal?
I think not.
What does it take others to get to a shiny, shaving edge?
5-10 min including removing from the plane, reinstalling, and
resetting depth.

You post raises a question: What are you doing with your plane that
requires the level of sharpness you describe, but is usable down to
the level of sharpness that needs 120 grit to reestablish the edge?
For an application such as a smoother, where such a super-sharp iron
is desirable or needed (for me that means sharpening though 8000 on
Norton waterstones), the degree of sharpness achievable with a 1000
stone is not acceptable. So I stop using it and sharpen when it is
still sharper than the 1000-grit stone could get it, and I just need
to touch up on the 4000 and 8000. On the other hand, if I were using a
plane for rough work like dimensioning, I would probably only sharpen
up to 1000; any more would be a waste. Example: at the Woodworking in
America conference this weekend, Michael Dunbar said that he sharpens
his drawknives, used for rough shaping, to 330 grit (sandpaper, not
stones), but his smoothing plane to 1500 grit.

I think the "usability range" for a plane is probably only one or two
grits. I just don't see the need to go through a large range of grits
unless repairing a nick or reshaping an edge.

--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

Maxwell Lol wrote:

Mark & Juanita writes:



320 to 1000 is big jump.

That's been my opinion also. However, that is what Shapton sells.
There
is nothing between 320 and 1000.

The Shapton GlassStones have a better transition in that respect.

220
500
1000
2000
4000
8000
16000
32000

Yeah, I don't get that there's nothing between 320 and 1000, seems like
they need one more transition.


I see on http://shaptonstones.com/index.php?m...&cPath=164_166
then also have 3000 and 6000

My problem has been the transition from 320 to 1000, after that it hasn't
been so bad.

My selection from 1000 to 5000 was based upon the recommendations from
Shapton's web site.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

alexy wrote:

Mark & Juanita wrote:


First, the good news -- I've been using Sharpton stones and the new
Veritas jig and get edges that cause the hair to fall off my arm when
testing an edge and 1.5 mil shavings from my #4 plane and 3 mil shavings
from my #5 1/2 plane. The Veritas jig makes sharpening repeatable so that
less re-shaping has to occur from sharpening to sharpening.
It does indeed do that. But so does learning to sharpen without a jig.
There is certainly nothing wrong with using a jig; they are invaluable
(for me) for blades with a very short bevel for which I can't get the
knack of feeling when the bevel is flat on the stone. But for the bulk
of plane irons and chisels, I find it SO much faster to sharpen
freehand that I do it more often.


If it works for you, that's great. I've found that hand sharpening tends
to put a convex edge on the blade.


.... snip
plane
blade this afternoon. It took a good 45 minutes to get all the scratch
marks from the 320 stone off at 1000. Same song, second verse going from
1000 to 3000. I spent some time making sure the stones were flat, so I
don't think that is causing the issue. Is this amount of time normal?
I think not.
What does it take others to get to a shiny, shaving edge?
5-10 min including removing from the plane, reinstalling, and
resetting depth.


As mentioned in another post, I think the problem has been found -- it
rests on the 320 stone being concave laterally across the width of the
stone.


You post raises a question: What are you doing with your plane that
requires the level of sharpness you describe, but is usable down to
the level of sharpness that needs 120 grit to reestablish the edge?
For an application such as a smoother, where such a super-sharp iron
is desirable or needed (for me that means sharpening though 8000 on
Norton waterstones), the degree of sharpness achievable with a 1000
stone is not acceptable. So I stop using it and sharpen when it is
still sharper than the 1000-grit stone could get it, and I just need
to touch up on the 4000 and 8000. On the other hand, if I were using a
plane for rough work like dimensioning, I would probably only sharpen
up to 1000; any more would be a waste. Example: at the Woodworking in
America conference this weekend, Michael Dunbar said that he sharpens
his drawknives, used for rough shaping, to 330 grit (sandpaper, not
stones), but his smoothing plane to 1500 grit.

I think the "usability range" for a plane is probably only one or two
grits. I just don't see the need to go through a large range of grits
unless repairing a nick or reshaping an edge.


Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! [sorry 'bout that]. Yep, the reason
for going down to 120 was to take out a couple of unfortunate nicks that
were sustained. The rest of the blade was fine, I was getting some ridges
due to those nicks.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
m...

I think the "usability range" for a plane is probably only one or two
grits. I just don't see the need to go through a large range of grits
unless repairing a nick or reshaping an edge.


Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! [sorry 'bout that]. Yep, the
reason
for going down to 120 was to take out a couple of unfortunate nicks that
were sustained. The rest of the blade was fine, I was getting some ridges
due to those nicks.

A hollow ground edge is not entirely without merit or benefit. The thunk you
might have heard earlier was my forehead meeting the desk edge on reading
your thoughts about convex edges and hand sharpening. Not being able to
raise a burr quickly is a clear signal that it's time to regrind that tool.
A ding large enough to be felt in the work is about the same. Is it a matter
of purity in the way you work?

MikeWhy wrote:

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
m...

I think the "usability range" for a plane is probably only one or two
grits. I just don't see the need to go through a large range of grits
unless repairing a nick or reshaping an edge.


Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! [sorry 'bout that]. Yep, the
reason
for going down to 120 was to take out a couple of unfortunate nicks that
were sustained. The rest of the blade was fine, I was getting some
ridges due to those nicks.

A hollow ground edge is not entirely without merit or benefit. The thunk
you might have heard earlier was my forehead meeting the desk edge on
reading your thoughts about convex edges and hand sharpening. Not being
able to raise a burr quickly is a clear signal that it's time to regrind
that tool. A ding large enough to be felt in the work is about the same.
Is it a matter of purity in the way you work?

In this case, yes because I am using that finishing plane to get the final
finish on the work so those ridges were quite esthetically unpleasing. I
really like to be able to get as much of the finishing completed with the
plane rather than a scraper -- I just really like that shiny, glass-smooth
look from a plane finish.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
...
really like to be able to get as much of the finishing completed with the
plane rather than a scraper -- I just really like that shiny, glass-smooth
look from a plane finish.

Yup. I never seem to get the same slick finish on a sanded surfcae that
comes so easily after planing.

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 11:44:34 -0700, Mark & Juanita
wrote:

Nova wrote:

Mark & Juanita wrote:
... snip
However, my frustration is the amount of time required to sharpen. The
first 3 grits go pretty quickly. However, starting at 1000 grit, the
process slows down to a crawl. I spent over 2 hours sharpening my #4
plane
blade this afternoon. It took a good 45 minutes to get all the scratch
marks from the 320 stone off at 1000. Same song, second verse going from
1000 to 3000. I spent some time making sure the stones were flat, so I
don't think that is causing the issue. Is this amount of time normal?
What does it take others to get to a shiny, shaving edge?


320 to 1000 is big jump.

That's been my opinion also. However, that is what Shapton sells. There
is nothing between 320 and 1000.


I use 3M wet/dry sandpaper (400, 600, 800 &
1200, 1500, 2000) in between to cut down on the time. I buy half sheets
in 5 packs from an automotive painting supply store.



Remember that 1000 grit sandpaper is a different size in microns than
1000 grit on waterstones. I generally start at 1000 with my Norton's
for the primary bevel and then use 4000 & 8000 for the microbevel.

I use more coarse stones when I need to take out a chip or something.

And I only do the primary bevel again when the microbevel has gotten
too big. Most of the time I just hone the microbevel a bit to renew
the edge.

Jim Weisgram wrote:

And I only do the primary bevel again when the microbevel has gotten
too big. Most of the time I just hone the microbevel a bit to renew
the edge.

You may not be saving any time, assuming you've got a jig that does
microbevel adjustments easily.

If you hone the primary bevel on the coarse (basically removing the
microbevel), it will take much less time on the finer stones to renew
the microbevel because less metal will need to be removed.

Brent Beach has a good writeup of this with a diagram:

http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sha...004.html#touch


Chris