I hope everybody in here does not filter out all G-Mail users... )


My wife and I were thinking about installing a new kitchen. We are
procrastinators so, of course, it has taken us a long time to pull the
trigger. now all this *crap* has happened and I don't want to go
through the hassle of getting a home improvement loan, especially when
I am looking at a kid in college in less than two years and another
one on his heels. Now isn't the time to take out any sort of loan.

But the problem is that we *REALLY* need to do something with the
kitchen as it can't stay the way it is for much longer. We at least
need to buy some new appliances. The wife wants new cabinets as the
ones that are in the house are ugly and old and cheap and, well, plain
nasty. Most of our, ahem, discussions over the past year-and-a-half
have been over what we want in a cabinet: I want wooded ones that are
stained and sealed and she wants them to be painted white. The
easiest thing to do now would be to paint the stupid ones we have
white but I don’t think that is an option.

Did I mention these cabinets were cheap? Well, they are covered with
a thick laminate that makes it look like a real dark oak and it is
shiny and looks just like Formica (probably because it IS Formica). I
know of no paint that would stick to it so I have not even tried to
paint them.

But today I got a "Eureka!" moment that I think will work but I am not
100% sure...that is where I need help. What if I found decent 1/4"
plywood and skin the cabinets using small brads and paint the stupid
things white? I don't want a white kitchen but this seems like it
will save us a lot of money. I think I will need to buy new door and
drawer fronts as I am pretty sure I will not be able to removes the
molding that goes around the perimeter and everything is wrapped in
that awful Formica crap. Throw a new Formica countertop on, slap some
paint on the wall, and install a new light fixture and you have a new
look kitchen (sort of) that will last 8-10 years.

Not a permanent solution but it may take 8-10 years to get out of this
mess we are currently in economically. We almost need additional
cabinet space as well as countertop space but if we lived with what we
have this long, we can live a little longer with what we have.

I will have to buy twelve standard size doors, two smaller doors, five
small drawer fronts, and two larger drawer fronts. We will need a few
sheets of paint grade pine plywood (would luan work??). New hardware
for the doors and drawers. New appliances. A new countertop. And
some paint. I figure I can get away with only a fraction of what we
would spend if we did it right.

Will facing the cabinets in this way be worth it? Or am I just
kidding myself? I don't see that it would be that hard. Should I
oversize the pieces and then use a router to trim around all the
exterior sides and inside the openings? Or would I cut everything to
size correctly before I start?

My last problem may be a doozie. I am not 100% sure but I am
reasonably sure, that my countertop was connected to the cabinets
using Liquid Nails. I have always been afraid to really look hard
because I was afraid I may be right but I think I feel the stuff up
there and I am cringing thinking I may not be able to change that
countertop....

If they used Liquid Nails, is there a snowball's chance in hell that I
can remove the countertop??

TIA

wrote

But today I got a "Eureka!" moment that I think will work but I am not
100% sure...that is where I need help. What if I found decent 1/4"
plywood and skin the cabinets using small brads and paint the stupid
things white? I don't want a white kitchen but this seems like it
will save us a lot of money. I think I will need to buy new door and
drawer fronts as I am pretty sure I will not be able to removes the
molding that goes around the perimeter and everything is wrapped in
that awful Formica crap. Throw a new Formica countertop on, slap some
paint on the wall, and install a new light fixture and you have a new
look kitchen (sort of) that will last 8-10 years.

Might finally be a valid reason for that old saying of "putting lipstick on
a pig" that's got so much press lately.

CAUTION: no one here (although some will sure try) can give you a definitive
answer until the state of the underlying cabinets themselves is known. Read
the last half of that sentence, two or three times, carefully!

ONLY then can you begin to work on a solution. If the cabinets (we're
talking the actual boxes themselves) are truly "crap", they might not even
stand up to your proposed retrofit.

Your best option is to call in local cabinetmakers/refinishers for a
professional bid. It should not cost you anything, and by getting three or
four _written_ bids (specifying all the work to be accomplished, including
finishing and cleanup), you should have a better understanding of the real
state of your cabinets and what can realistically be done with them.

Caveat emptor: watch out for fly-by-night folks, look for longevity in the
business, and by all means check out _required_ references.

That is your first step. Let us know what you find out, then the advice you
get may actually have a chance of being something you can use.

Just my tuppence, as both a builder and kitchen cabinetmaker/installer ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/18/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

I also had some old cabinets. Mine were made of Philipine Mahagony. Not
only that, they were carpenter made on site.
I covered the sides with 1/8 ash. I removed the face frames and replaced
them with ash. I bought new doors to replace the old ones. The original
countertop was tile which I replaced.
It would have been cheaper to remove the old cabinets and replace them with
new. It would also have been quicker.
Jim

wrote in message
...
I hope everybody in here does not filter out all G-Mail users... )


My wife and I were thinking about installing a new kitchen. We are
procrastinators so, of course, it has taken us a long time to pull the
trigger. now all this *crap* has happened and I don't want to go
through the hassle of getting a home improvement loan, especially when
I am looking at a kid in college in less than two years and another
one on his heels. Now isn't the time to take out any sort of loan.

But the problem is that we *REALLY* need to do something with the
kitchen as it can't stay the way it is for much longer. We at least
need to buy some new appliances. The wife wants new cabinets as the
ones that are in the house are ugly and old and cheap and, well, plain
nasty. Most of our, ahem, discussions over the past year-and-a-half
have been over what we want in a cabinet: I want wooded ones that are
stained and sealed and she wants them to be painted white. The
easiest thing to do now would be to paint the stupid ones we have
white but I don’t think that is an option.

Did I mention these cabinets were cheap? Well, they are covered with
a thick laminate that makes it look like a real dark oak and it is
shiny and looks just like Formica (probably because it IS Formica). I
know of no paint that would stick to it so I have not even tried to
paint them.

But today I got a "Eureka!" moment that I think will work but I am not
100% sure...that is where I need help. What if I found decent 1/4"
plywood and skin the cabinets using small brads and paint the stupid
things white? I don't want a white kitchen but this seems like it
will save us a lot of money. I think I will need to buy new door and
drawer fronts as I am pretty sure I will not be able to removes the
molding that goes around the perimeter and everything is wrapped in
that awful Formica crap. Throw a new Formica countertop on, slap some
paint on the wall, and install a new light fixture and you have a new
look kitchen (sort of) that will last 8-10 years.

Not a permanent solution but it may take 8-10 years to get out of this
mess we are currently in economically. We almost need additional
cabinet space as well as countertop space but if we lived with what we
have this long, we can live a little longer with what we have.

I will have to buy twelve standard size doors, two smaller doors, five
small drawer fronts, and two larger drawer fronts. We will need a few
sheets of paint grade pine plywood (would luan work??). New hardware
for the doors and drawers. New appliances. A new countertop. And
some paint. I figure I can get away with only a fraction of what we
would spend if we did it right.

Will facing the cabinets in this way be worth it? Or am I just
kidding myself? I don't see that it would be that hard. Should I
oversize the pieces and then use a router to trim around all the
exterior sides and inside the openings? Or would I cut everything to
size correctly before I start?

My last problem may be a doozie. I am not 100% sure but I am
reasonably sure, that my countertop was connected to the cabinets
using Liquid Nails. I have always been afraid to really look hard
because I was afraid I may be right but I think I feel the stuff up
there and I am cringing thinking I may not be able to change that
countertop....

If they used Liquid Nails, is there a snowball's chance in hell that I
can remove the countertop??

TIA

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:10:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I hope everybody in here does not filter out all G-Mail users... )


My wife and I were thinking about installing a new kitchen. We are
procrastinators so, of course, it has taken us a long time to pull the
trigger. now all this *crap* has happened and I don't want to go
through the hassle of getting a home improvement loan, especially when
I am looking at a kid in college in less than two years and another
one on his heels. Now isn't the time to take out any sort of loan.

But the problem is that we *REALLY* need to do something with the
kitchen as it can't stay the way it is for much longer. We at least
need to buy some new appliances. The wife wants new cabinets as the
ones that are in the house are ugly and old and cheap and, well, plain
nasty. Most of our, ahem, discussions over the past year-and-a-half
have been over what we want in a cabinet: I want wooded ones that are
stained and sealed and she wants them to be painted white. The
easiest thing to do now would be to paint the stupid ones we have
white but I don’t think that is an option.

Did I mention these cabinets were cheap? Well, they are covered with
a thick laminate that makes it look like a real dark oak and it is
shiny and looks just like Formica (probably because it IS Formica). I
know of no paint that would stick to it so I have not even tried to
paint them.

But today I got a "Eureka!" moment that I think will work but I am not
100% sure...that is where I need help. What if I found decent 1/4"
plywood and skin the cabinets using small brads and paint the stupid
things white? I don't want a white kitchen but this seems like it
will save us a lot of money. I think I will need to buy new door and
drawer fronts as I am pretty sure I will not be able to removes the
molding that goes around the perimeter and everything is wrapped in
that awful Formica crap. Throw a new Formica countertop on, slap some
paint on the wall, and install a new light fixture and you have a new
look kitchen (sort of) that will last 8-10 years.

I think you should compare replacing the existing with middle to low
end cabinets. It might actually cost less. And they would be new.

Not a permanent solution but it may take 8-10 years to get out of this
mess we are currently in economically. We almost need additional
cabinet space as well as countertop space but if we lived with what we
have this long, we can live a little longer with what we have.

I will have to buy twelve standard size doors, two smaller doors, five
small drawer fronts, and two larger drawer fronts. We will need a few
sheets of paint grade pine plywood (would luan work??). New hardware
for the doors and drawers. New appliances. A new countertop. And
some paint. I figure I can get away with only a fraction of what we
would spend if we did it right.

Will facing the cabinets in this way be worth it? Or am I just
kidding myself? I don't see that it would be that hard. Should I
oversize the pieces and then use a router to trim around all the
exterior sides and inside the openings? Or would I cut everything to
size correctly before I start?

Not necessarily possible (post router trim) with the cabinets
installed.

My last problem may be a doozie. I am not 100% sure but I am
reasonably sure, that my countertop was connected to the cabinets
using Liquid Nails. I have always been afraid to really look hard
because I was afraid I may be right but I think I feel the stuff up
there and I am cringing thinking I may not be able to change that
countertop....

Common practice with HPL tops is to use screws into gusset plates in
the corner. Look under and see if that is not the case. You might be
surprised. It took me about ten minutes to remove mine.

If they used Liquid Nails, is there a snowball's chance in hell that I
can remove the countertop??

TIA

I agree with Senor Swing. Especially the part about the cabinets NOT
withstanding the work you propose. You should investigate exactly
what you have now, and then figure out exactly what the cost of
materials will be to get what you want to extend the life of the
cabinets.

To expand on his thoughts a bit, if you put a nicer door on the
carcass of old cabinets, it will probably be heavier. Heavier means
new hinges, which you no doubt considered. But will the stiles hold a
heavier hinge? I have worked on cabinets that have MDO and some kind
of HDF that was cut into styles and have been foiled (low pressure
laminate covered - probably what you have) and they won't hold larger
or more aggressive screws.

Most of the cabinets have been designed, and yes, actually engineered
so that all parts are no stronger than they have to be. If you "guild
the lilly" with nice new cosmetic like doors and drawers, or possibly
even just faces alone you might discover just how cheap they are if
the extra weight pulls the cabinets apart.

If I were you, I would consider a cheaper option. Find someone that
sprays coatings, not paint, coatings and have them come take a look.

Contrary to popular belief, coatings will stick to plastic (again, no
paints I know of). They make coatings that stick to anything. As
long as it isn't that HDPE or its cousins, you will be fine. BUT, you
will wind up with a solid color, no wood grain. But hey... white is
in again anyway!

As a sidebar, I am beginning a full kitchen cabinet refinish next
week. The cabinets are dark oak that are quite ugly. But the cost of
similar quality to these well made 20 year old cabinets was more than
the owner could bear. Her cheapest estimate for removal, rebuild,
finish and installation was 23K. Solid doors and drawer fronts, solid
oak rail and styles, all custom made just like the old stuff. With
that number in mind, we are refinishing them all.

Here's how:

- Wash all components clean
- Sand everything
- Spray one coat of primer
- Spray three coats of Coronado high resin industrial coating on each
component (this stuff can be used on wood, fiberglass, metal, just
about anything. Not badly priced for what you get, expect about $55 a
gallon)

With new quartz tops, removal of the old wall paper, updated cabinet
and door hardware to brushed nickel and a little crown molding, it
ought to look great.

To find someone that can apply industrial coatings if you don't want
to take a whack at it yourself, it is easier than you might think. If
you have a tub/ceramic tile refinishing company of repute in your
area, call them. Sand down the plastic as needed to suit them
yourself to save money.

They have the proper primers, surface prep materials, etc. to get it
done right. They may be able to apply their finish right over the top
of the cabs and components as their finish is no more than another
high resin epoxy coating. Sturdy enough to stand hot water, soaps,
cleaning, etc., it could be the ticket for a few years.

If they used Liquid Nails, is there a snowball's chance in hell that I
can remove the countertop??

Only you will know when you find out. If you are having the tops
replaced, you might want to have the top guys take a look at it for
you. They see anything you can imagine (including someone like me
that used to glue and screw multiple layers of plywood to cabinets and
THEN put the plastic on) almost every day.

As always, just my 0.02. Okay, maybe a nickel this time...

Good luck!

Robert

On Oct 2, 2:49*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
wrote

But today I got a "Eureka!" moment that I think will work but I am not
100% sure...that is where I need help. *What if I found decent 1/4"
plywood and skin the cabinets using small brads and paint the stupid
things white? *I don't want a white kitchen but this seems like it
will save us a lot of money. *I think I will need to buy new door and
drawer fronts as I am pretty sure I will not be able to removes the
molding that goes around the perimeter and everything is wrapped in
that awful Formica crap. *Throw a new Formica countertop on, slap some
paint on the wall, and install a new light fixture and you have a new
look kitchen (sort of) that will last 8-10 years.

Might finally be a valid reason for that old saying of "putting lipstick on
a pig" that's got so much press lately.


....now now.......

On Oct 2, 2:49*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
[ snipped good advice]

Caveat emptor: watch out for fly-by-night folks, look for longevity in the
business, and by all means check out _required_ references.

As most of my business is word-of-mouth, I still get the odd request
for a reference.
These days I'm cocky enough to ask them: "would you like a good
reference or a bad reference?"
When I see them mull that over, I usually see a light come on in their
head...and they 'get it'.

The requests I do take seriously, is when they ask to see my work.
Then I gladly send them to some of my customers. Most of the time, I
will have installed the same colour they are interested in.

I also send them to see any of a dozen displays at several local
kitchen and bath dealers. That is where I suggest they buy the taps,
or sinks if they don't like the undermount sinks that I have on
display in my showroom...such as it is..

The underlying message is that it is a good idea to ask for references
unless you run into a smartass. G

On Oct 2, 2:10*pm, wrote:
I hope everybody in here does not filter out all G-Mail users... *)

My wife and I were thinking about installing a new kitchen. *We are
procrastinators so, of course, it has taken us a long time to pull the
trigger. *now all this *crap* has happened and I don't want to go
through the hassle of getting a home improvement loan, especially when
I am looking at a kid in college in less than two years and another
one on his heels. *Now isn't the time to take out any sort of loan.

But the problem is that we *REALLY* need to do something with the
kitchen as it can't stay the way it is for much longer. *We at least
need to buy some new appliances. *The wife wants new cabinets as the
ones that are in the house are ugly and old and cheap and, well, plain
nasty. *Most of our, ahem, discussions over the past year-and-a-half
have been over what we want in a cabinet: I want wooded ones that are
stained and sealed and she wants them to be painted white. *The
easiest thing to do now would be to paint the stupid ones we have
white but I don’t think that is an option.

Did I mention these cabinets were cheap? *Well, they are covered with
a thick laminate that makes it look like a real dark oak and it is
shiny and looks just like Formica (probably because it IS Formica). *I
know of no paint that would stick to it so I have not even tried to
paint them.

But today I got a "Eureka!" moment that I think will work but I am not
100% sure...that is where I need help. *What if I found decent 1/4"
plywood and skin the cabinets using small brads and paint the stupid
things white? *I don't want a white kitchen but this seems like it
will save us a lot of money. *I think I will need to buy new door and
drawer fronts as I am pretty sure I will not be able to removes the
molding that goes around the perimeter and everything is wrapped in
that awful Formica crap. *Throw a new Formica countertop on, slap some
paint on the wall, and install a new light fixture and you have a new
look kitchen (sort of) that will last 8-10 years.

Not a permanent solution but it may take 8-10 years to get out of this
mess we are currently in economically. *We almost need additional
cabinet space as well as countertop space but if we lived with what we
have this long, we can live a little longer with what we have.

I will have to buy twelve standard size doors, two smaller doors, five
small drawer fronts, and two larger drawer fronts. *We will need a few
sheets of paint grade pine plywood (would luan work??). *New hardware
for the doors and drawers. *New appliances. *A new countertop. *And
some paint. *I figure I can get away with only a fraction of what we
would spend if we did it right.

Will facing the cabinets in this way be worth it? *Or am I just
kidding myself? *I don't see that it would be that hard. *Should I
oversize the pieces and then use a router to trim around all the
exterior sides and inside the openings? *Or would I cut everything to
size correctly before I start?

My last problem may be a doozie. *I am not 100% sure but I am
reasonably sure, that my countertop was connected to the cabinets
using Liquid Nails. *I have always been afraid to really look hard
because I was afraid I may be right but I think I feel the stuff up
there and I am cringing thinking I may not be able to change that
countertop....

If they used Liquid Nails, is there a snowball's chance in hell that I
can remove the countertop??

TIA

Swing and Nail give good advice. Lately, I have been doing some
countertops for customers who took the plunge and bought some Ikea
kitchen cabinets. It surprised me to see that, if installed properly,
the quality is certainly good value... aka a lot of bang for your
buck.
You can do the design right on line and they'll ship it all flat, to
your door.
They are not (and how could they be) the same quality as many of our
Wreckers could build, but if your time is worth anything, take a close
look at Ikea. (I shudder at the thought of suggesting Mill's Pride
from Home Despot, but even that product can look good if installed
properly.)

Lipstick on a pig, gilding the lily, and my favourite (translated from
Dutch) a flag on a manure barge.

On Oct 2, 3:27*pm, "
wrote:
I agree with Senor Swing.

AS do I.

With new quartz tops, removal of the old wall paper, updated cabinet
and door hardware to brushed nickel and a little crown molding, it
ought to look great.

The trick is to make a kitchen look like a $ 23,000.00 kitchen for
under $ 10K rather than spending $ 23K for a kitchen that looks like a
$ 10K kitchen, which seems to be the case lately.
If you're diligent, and ask around, you can do miracles for under $
10K. $ 5K for cabinets, $ 5K for a top... and a bit of sweat equity.

"Robatoy" wrote:
On Oct 2, 3:27 pm, "
wrote:
I agree with Senor Swing.

AS do I.

With new quartz tops, removal of the old wall paper, updated cabinet
and door hardware to brushed nickel and a little crown molding, it
ought to look great.

The trick is to make a kitchen look like a $ 23,000.00 kitchen for
under $ 10K rather than spending $ 23K for a kitchen that looks like a
$ 10K kitchen, which seems to be the case lately.
If you're diligent, and ask around, you can do miracles for under $
10K. $ 5K for cabinets, $ 5K for a top... and a bit of sweat equity.

The OP should try hard to find someone like Royce Stanton locally. Royce is
local to us here in Houston and the miracle he performs on kitchens just by
refinishing/painting has to be seen to be fully appreciated:

http://brightkitchen.com/splash.htm

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/18/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Lipstick on a pig. I actually never thought of it in that sense but
you are exactly right.

Somebody said to look at the state of the underlying cabinet. They
are structurally sound and even the laminate is not peeling in all but
one door under the sink which probably gets used more than any other
door in the kitchen.

But whenever somebody else said that a lot of stuff is built to only
hold whatever door is already there and that hit me right between the
eye. I was thinking about replacing the doors but now I am not so
sure anymore. I do believe he is right and my lipsticked pig would
fall flat on its face in the mud.

I have been looking at alternatives like having somebody spray them
but then I would be getting into money that would be better off being
used to buy new cabinets.

I tried to talk the wife into letting me make them because it can't be
that hard to build a box. I was going to buy all the doors and drawer
fronts because I am nowhere near good enough to build that stuff. But
she was adamant that I don't make them. She doesn't think I cannot do
it but, it's, a, because I start all projects like a house on fire and
then I am the world's greatest procrastinator. Plus I don't have
enough room in the house to store the wood or, orse, the cabinets as I
build them.

I sort of like the Ikea idea. I jsut want it to be "good enough" for
the time being (if I can talk her into it). She sort of, kind of,
would let me paint the existing ones but buying cheap Ikea ones would
make her hair stand on end. But maybe...maybe... I like the Ikea
idea because they have to be cheaper if they all come in pieces and I
put them together. And I like Ikea crap better than Home Depot crap
any day of the week.

As for the counter top, there is a smallish butcher block on top of
one of the cabinets right now instead of the counter. I am 112% sure
that thing is glued all the way around with freaking Liquid Nails. I
know counters are supposed to be screwed to the blocks in the corners
but from many others things I have seen in this house over the years I
wouldn't be surprised if this guy used liquid nails all the way around
the tops of the cabinets. I have never had any experience in ripping
off something that has been glued down with that stuff....

I am going to look at Ikea now. Thanks for the suggestion. Somebody
else said it right: The new cabinets will still be cheap but they will
be new.

Thanks a lot!!!

busbus


On Oct 2, 4:02*pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Oct 2, 2:10*pm, wrote:



I hope everybody in here does not filter out all G-Mail users... *)

My wife and I were thinking about installing a new kitchen. *We are
procrastinators so, of course, it has taken us a long time to pull the
trigger. *now all this *crap* has happened and I don't want to go
through the hassle of getting a home improvement loan, especially when
I am looking at a kid in college in less than two years and another
one on his heels. *Now isn't the time to take out any sort of loan.

But the problem is that we *REALLY* need to do something with the
kitchen as it can't stay the way it is for much longer. *We at least
need to buy some new appliances. *The wife wants new cabinets as the
ones that are in the house are ugly and old and cheap and, well, plain
nasty. *Most of our, ahem, discussions over the past year-and-a-half
have been over what we want in a cabinet: I want wooded ones that are
stained and sealed and she wants them to be painted white. *The
easiest thing to do now would be to paint the stupid ones we have
white but I don’t think that is an option.

Did I mention these cabinets were cheap? *Well, they are covered with
a thick laminate that makes it look like a real dark oak and it is
shiny and looks just like Formica (probably because it IS Formica). *I
know of no paint that would stick to it so I have not even tried to
paint them.

But today I got a "Eureka!" moment that I think will work but I am not
100% sure...that is where I need help. *What if I found decent 1/4"
plywood and skin the cabinets using small brads and paint the stupid
things white? *I don't want a white kitchen but this seems like it
will save us a lot of money. *I think I will need to buy new door and
drawer fronts as I am pretty sure I will not be able to removes the
molding that goes around the perimeter and everything is wrapped in
that awful Formica crap. *Throw a new Formica countertop on, slap some
paint on the wall, and install a new light fixture and you have a new
look kitchen (sort of) that will last 8-10 years.

Not a permanent solution but it may take 8-10 years to get out of this
mess we are currently in economically. *We almost need additional
cabinet space as well as countertop space but if we lived with what we
have this long, we can live a little longer with what we have.

I will have to buy twelve standard size doors, two smaller doors, five
small drawer fronts, and two larger drawer fronts. *We will need a few
sheets of paint grade pine plywood (would luan work??). *New hardware
for the doors and drawers. *New appliances. *A new countertop. *And
some paint. *I figure I can get away with only a fraction of what we
would spend if we did it right.

Will facing the cabinets in this way be worth it? *Or am I just
kidding myself? *I don't see that it would be that hard. *Should I
oversize the pieces and then use a router to trim around all the
exterior sides and inside the openings? *Or would I cut everything to
size correctly before I start?

My last problem may be a doozie. *I am not 100% sure but I am
reasonably sure, that my countertop was connected to the cabinets
using Liquid Nails. *I have always been afraid to really look hard
because I was afraid I may be right but I think I feel the stuff up
there and I am cringing thinking I may not be able to change that
countertop....

If they used Liquid Nails, is there a snowball's chance in hell that I
can remove the countertop??

TIA

Swing and Nail give good advice. Lately, I have been doing some
countertops for customers who took the plunge and bought some Ikea
kitchen cabinets. It surprised me to see that, if installed properly,
the quality is certainly good value... aka a lot of bang for your
buck.
You can do the design right on line and they'll ship it all flat, to
your door.
They are not (and how could they be) the same quality as many of our
Wreckers could build, but if your time is worth anything, take a close
look at Ikea. (I shudder at the thought of suggesting Mill's Pride
from Home Despot, but even that product can look good if installed
properly.)

Lipstick on a pig, gilding the lily, and my favourite (translated from
Dutch) a flag on a manure barge.

wrote

I sort of like the Ikea idea. I jsut want it to be "good enough" for
the time being (if I can talk her into it). She sort of, kind of,
would let me paint the existing ones but buying cheap Ikea ones would
make her hair stand on end. But maybe...maybe... I like the Ikea
idea because they have to be cheaper if they all come in pieces and I
put them together. And I like Ikea crap better than Home Depot crap
any day of the week.

********************************

Something to think about...

I have been asked (many times) over the years to repair/reinforce some kinda
cheapie furniture/cabinets/etc.

I got quite good at it. Although I don't like that kind of construction, it
is often the only viable financial option. As such, I will do my best to
make it work by making it strong.

The first rule of making cheap stuff strong is NO RACKING!! It can't wobble
or move in any way. I will put in diagonal bracing, nail and glue some
doorskins to the back, install corner braces, etc.

I admit that I have not done this with kitchen cabinets, but I did do with
garage cabinets. Whatever the level of engineering is on a particular
cabinet, ir it is a cheapie, it can't hurt to make it stronger.

Many of the projects that I did twenty years or so ago are still going
strong. And this is the cheap disposable stuff with a expected life of five
years or less.

It is not my first choice of doing things. But it works.

On Oct 2, 7:12*pm, wrote:
[snipped informative reply]

... *I like the Ikea
idea because they have to be cheaper if they all come in pieces and I
put them together. *And I like Ikea crap better than Home Depot crap
any day of the week.

It is not all crap from Ikea. Sure, it is made to hit a price point,
but the stuff I have been seeing has been totally credible. The finish
on the doors was as good as the finish I have been seeing from so-
called kitchen outfits like Merillat, KitchenCraft etc. ( That is not
to say that KitchenCraft does have a line of products where it looks
like somebody actually gave a damn .. but at a premium)

[snip countertop dilemma]

I am going to look at Ikea now. *Thanks for the suggestion. *Somebody
else said it right: The new cabinets will still be cheap but they will
be new.

Ikea makes designing and ordering really easy.
Rip out the old, assemble and install the cabinets one by one. No
cluttering up your work space.

On Oct 2, 3:02*pm, Robatoy wrote:

Snip

They are not (and how could they be) the same quality as many of our
Wreckers could build, but if your time is worth anything, take a close
look at Ikea.

Besides that, how many homeowners want to pay for that kind of
quality? Truthfully, how many would actually appreciate it?

Years ago, I gave up. I try to educate the clients on their proposed
services and goods to be provided by my company, and give them a clear
look at the differences in what they can get from me.

I would love to be the craftsman that hand selected every stick of
wood, cut every joint by hand, selected the best plywood, and only
used hand rubbed finishes that required multiple coats.

That's not the market I serve. Folks want a good job for a good
price. And more often than not, they are concerned about getting the
job finished on time. Maybe more so than just about anything else.

I have a doctor that has me do work around his house, and for some
time was doing work at a country club. They asked me for "ballparks"
up front, and that was that.

All of my business is referral, but with money being what it is and
many customers that watch those HGTV shows I still wind up in
competitive situations. I certainly have an edge, but never take the
business for granted.

And I learned along time ago to adjust my personal expectations and
pricing. I have a responsibility to myself, my company, my vendors
and sometimes employees to make sure I get work that will pay all the
bills. As many here know, that stream needs to flow continuously. I
always try to remember an old contractor buddy of years ago that used
to chastise me with "quit trying to sell Cadillacs in a Chevrolet
market".

His point was well taken. Sometimes people actually know what they
want and have their mind set on a budget, quality, experience,
reputation be damned!


(I shudder at the thought of suggesting Mill's Pride
from Home Despot, but even that product can look good if installed
properly.)

Couldn't agree more. About ten years ago I stepped in to finish a
home that was being built by a homeowner. He was doing the "sweat
equity" approach and trying to do everything he could himself. With a
garage full of tools at home, he thought he was set.

He got the wall up and rocked and ran out of gas. We were hired by
his lender to trim the house out and finish odds and ends of woodwork.

Part of that included hanging and finishing the cabinets he had
purchased. These were straight from Home Depot, and they were some
kind of oak mix, actually well built and solid, but raw and
unfinished.

I shot a light undercoat of dark mahogany toner on the cabinets, then
topped it with a slightly heavier coat of dark walnut toner (greatly
thinned stain). I shot a coat of shellac on them, then two coats of
poly.

They really looked great. They had a nice warm hue to them that was
kind of a chocolate/brick red color. You couldn't tell they were oak
unless you got close enough to see the grain. I don't know exactly
what wood they looked like (chernut?), but they looked really nice.

Good finishing can make up a lot of ground in appearance if you have
something to start with, even if it isn't much.

Robert

I personally like Ikea. I have discovered that not all furniture
needs to heirloom quality, some just needs to hold my fanny off the
floor.

If you are thinking about them, be sure to go to a store. Their
displays are very imaginative, and they always give me ideas about
things that I can do on my own, not necessarily with their stuff.

I think you are wise to hold off on spending money you don't have
right now. No one else seems to have it either, and those few that do
are thinking several times about lending it.

Good Luck!

Old Guy



On Oct 2, 1:10*pm, wrote:
I hope everybody in here does not filter out all G-Mail users... *)

My wife and I were thinking about installing a new kitchen. *We are
procrastinators so, of course, it has taken us a long time to pull the
trigger. *now all this *crap* has happened and I don't want to go
through the hassle of getting a home improvement loan, especially when
I am looking at a kid in college in less than two years and another
one on his heels. *Now isn't the time to take out any sort of loan.

But the problem is that we *REALLY* need to do something with the
kitchen as it can't stay the way it is for much longer. *We at least
need to buy some new appliances. *The wife wants new cabinets as the
ones that are in the house are ugly and old and cheap and, well, plain
nasty. *Most of our, ahem, discussions over the past year-and-a-half
have been over what we want in a cabinet: I want wooded ones that are
stained and sealed and she wants them to be painted white. *The
easiest thing to do now would be to paint the stupid ones we have
white but I don’t think that is an option.

Did I mention these cabinets were cheap? *Well, they are covered with
a thick laminate that makes it look like a real dark oak and it is
shiny and looks just like Formica (probably because it IS Formica). *I
know of no paint that would stick to it so I have not even tried to
paint them.

But today I got a "Eureka!" moment that I think will work but I am not
100% sure...that is where I need help. *What if I found decent 1/4"
plywood and skin the cabinets using small brads and paint the stupid
things white? *I don't want a white kitchen but this seems like it
will save us a lot of money. *I think I will need to buy new door and
drawer fronts as I am pretty sure I will not be able to removes the
molding that goes around the perimeter and everything is wrapped in
that awful Formica crap. *Throw a new Formica countertop on, slap some
paint on the wall, and install a new light fixture and you have a new
look kitchen (sort of) that will last 8-10 years.

Not a permanent solution but it may take 8-10 years to get out of this
mess we are currently in economically. *We almost need additional
cabinet space as well as countertop space but if we lived with what we
have this long, we can live a little longer with what we have.

I will have to buy twelve standard size doors, two smaller doors, five
small drawer fronts, and two larger drawer fronts. *We will need a few
sheets of paint grade pine plywood (would luan work??). *New hardware
for the doors and drawers. *New appliances. *A new countertop. *And
some paint. *I figure I can get away with only a fraction of what we
would spend if we did it right.

Will facing the cabinets in this way be worth it? *Or am I just
kidding myself? *I don't see that it would be that hard. *Should I
oversize the pieces and then use a router to trim around all the
exterior sides and inside the openings? *Or would I cut everything to
size correctly before I start?

My last problem may be a doozie. *I am not 100% sure but I am
reasonably sure, that my countertop was connected to the cabinets
using Liquid Nails. *I have always been afraid to really look hard
because I was afraid I may be right but I think I feel the stuff up
there and I am cringing thinking I may not be able to change that
countertop....

If they used Liquid Nails, is there a snowball's chance in hell that I
can remove the countertop??

TIA

On Oct 2, 8:31*pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:
[snipped for brevity]

It is not my first choice of doing things. *But it works.

Preeeeecisely. A faithful client of mine asked me once what she'd have
to pay for a garden-style bench for her foyer. I quoted her: "between
200 and 1200."
She immediately understood and asked me to do the best I could with $
400.00. It ended up being $ 200.00 worth of cedar and an afternoon of
my time. Simple, straight forward, no time invested in finishing.
Done. A Chevy in a Cadillac market, because that is all she wanted.

Had another one the other day: "How much for a 30" wide bookcase with
5 shelves?"
Me: "What is the price of a car?"
Him: "Nothing fancy, but solid oak."
Me: "about 1200 to 1500"
Him: "OVER A THOUSAND??? I can get one at The Brick (Canadian brown
box chain) for $ 300.00!!!"
Me: " GO to The Brick!!" (then, under my breath, "arshole")
Him: "What was that?"
Me: (louder) "Have a nice day!"

"*The easiest thing to do now would be to paint the stupid ones we
have white but I don’t think that is an option. *I know of no paint
that would stick to it so I have not even tried to paint them. "

HomeDepot sells a white paint product designed as a base coat for your
cabinets - spray it on and you can get an "automotive" finish.

*"What if I found decent 1/4" plywood and skin the cabinets using
small brads and paint the stupid things white? "

Wouldn't do it, not prudent. Existing surface would be better base
than plywood for paint.

"throw a new Formica countertop on, slap some paint on the wall, and
install a new light fixture "

Have HD come out and measure - pay the $20 fee for this to get the
top right the first time. Mine turned a corner so I bult my top myself
ratherthan have that joint at the mitre - gets wet, swells and
seperates.

"I will have to buy twelve standard size doors, two smaller doors,
five small drawer fronts, and two larger drawer fronts.

The prices on these will shock the hell out of you. You can actually
buy those white KD cabintes from HD/LOWES for less than the cost of
doors and refinishing skin (also sold at HD/Lowes) which is much
better than (God no!) using Luan!

"*I figure I can get away with only a fraction of what we would spend
if we did it right."

Go re-figure! Go down to Lowes or HD Kitchen Design Center and get an
estimate on new cabinets and some design help - you may find a few
good ideas in the process (maybe a 30 or 36" Pan Drawer Base Cabinet
will fit and may the wife fall in loove all over again - mine did!

Will facing the cabinets in this way be worth it? *Or am I just kidding myself?

Asked and answered.

"*I don't see that it would be that hard. * I cut everything to size
correctly before I start?"

Oh yee of little experience.

" reasonably sure, that my countertop was connected to the cabinets
using Liquid Nails. If they used Liquid Nails, is there a snowball's
chance in hell that I can remove the countertop??

If a homeowner did the job, Glue is as likely as not. If pro's did it,
it is more likely that they screwed up from gussets in the cabinets
into the bottom of the counter top.

Use Piano wire like a garot to cut through liquid nails - or one of
thise wire saws if it was glued down. Either way, you can remove the
top - be careful, of course.

wrote:
Lipstick on a pig, gilding the lily, and my favourite (translated from
Dutch) a flag on a manure barge.


....and toward more colorful speech: spit shining a turd.

nyuk,
jo4hn

Robatoy wrote:

: Swing and Nail give good advice. Lately, I have been doing some
: countertops for customers who took the plunge and bought some Ikea
: kitchen cabinets. It surprised me to see that, if installed properly,
: the quality is certainly good value... aka a lot of bang for your
: buck.
: You can do the design right on line and they'll ship it all flat, to
: your door.



Second that. We are redoing our kitchen with Ikea cabinets, and I am really
impressed with their quality. Hardware, finishes, everything is very good,
much better than I've seen on more expensive cabinets.

-- Andy Barss

Snip

Besides that, how many homeowners want to pay for that kind of
quality? Truthfully, how many would actually appreciate it?

Well, I for one DO appreciate the quality. Problem is that I now got
the wife understanding the differrence and she is willing to pay for
it. Well, truth be told, I would, too, but not with a kid going to
colled in less than two years and another on his heels.

Not to mention the fact that the Average Joe is gong to have a hard
time prying money out of the local banker. )

So now I am backing off. I have to if I want to eat. And I am angry
yet relieved that I didn't pull the trigger on this project sooner.
Both of us are procratinators and sometimes that is good. We also get
every last mile out of everything we own and now we are at a point
that the fridge and dishwasher are almost unusable because of the
state they are in, despite all the patches I have made to them.

Bottom line is that there is one doggone thing that has really held us
back and that is the fact she wants a white kitchen and I want lightly
stained wood because, to me, painting wood is a cardinal sin. But
maybe I will succumbto her wishes for a white kitchen and maybe I can
talk her into cheaper cabinets again. She was there at one time but
dummy me showed her the real difference between the junk in Home Depot
versus what a local cabinet shop can do.

Correct me if I am wrong but white kitchens will not stand up as well
as plain wood, right?

wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong but white kitchens will not stand up as well
as plain wood, right?

Depends upon what is underneath the white paint, but one thing should be
glaringly obvious, every little cooking splatter will stand out like a sore
thumb.

Not to say we have a dirty kitchen, but a couple bits of last nights dinner
might still be on the cabinets today, and it isn't a big deal, if we had
white, however....

--
Froz...

On Oct 3, 1:35*pm, jo4hn wrote:
wrote:
Lipstick on a pig, gilding the lily, and my favourite (translated from
Dutch) a flag on a manure barge.

...and toward more colorful speech: spit shining a turd.

* * * * nyuk,
* * * * jo4hn

FRom here it looks like the Nazis have shut down the news group

FrozenNorth wrote:
wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong but white kitchens will not stand up as
well
as plain wood, right?

Depends upon what is underneath the white paint, but one thing
should
be glaringly obvious, every little cooking splatter will stand out
like a sore thumb.

Not to say we have a dirty kitchen, but a couple bits of last nights
dinner might still be on the cabinets today, and it isn't a big
deal,
if we had white, however....

Also depends on what kind of "white". White melamine will take a
beating. So will white 2K polyurethane or white catalyzed lacquer.
Yeah, it will show dirt, but the dirt generally cleans off pretty
easily. White Home Depot latex, not so much.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sat, 4 Oct 2008 08:39:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong but white kitchens will not stand up as well
as plain wood, right?

Maybe, maybe not. White shows dirt more, but it has been used in
countless kitchens and has held up very well. My personal experience
with clear finishes on wood kitchen cabinets is that most shops use a
rather thin layer that doesn't hold up for more than a year or so near
wear point (knobs, by the sink, etc.). A *good* finish of any type
will hold up fine.

For painting bookshelves (not quite the same thing, I know, but I've
not finished a kitchen cabinet in 25+ years) I strongly recommend a
high-end oil-based alkyd enamel paint. I use Benjamin-Moore. You have
to allow it to dry for at least a week and is best to let it cure for
a month before using it, but it produces a high-gloss, very durable
and washable finish.

Just a quick check back on your project - are these manufactured home
cabinets? If so, you probably can't do anything to improve them. Most
of them are absolute minimal junk and not worth even a coat of paint.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

Definition of a teenager: God's punishment for enjoying sex.