Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
now I'm irritated again.

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take this
to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
basic tools and teach how to make things with them.

rant mode off -

Now I feel better,


Vic

--
There are 10 kinds of people - those who understand binary and those who
don't

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, "Vic Baron"
wrote:

Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
now I'm irritated again.

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take this
to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
basic tools and teach how to make things with them.

rant mode off -

Now I feel better,


Vic

Keep in mind that Morash supplies the funding of all those cool
dedicated machines. No wonder it takes me 2 weeks to build the same
project Norm makes in two days. At least my project is not filled
with brad nails.

Yes, getting annoyed but not so much as with your bug-a-boo rather, PBS fund
raising campaigns: "So we can continue bringing you New Yankee ..." . I
think I have seen every episode of "NEW" Yankee... atleast 5 times.

Stu


"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, "Vic Baron"
wrote:

Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
now I'm irritated again.

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
this
to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
basic tools and teach how to make things with them.

rant mode off -

Now I feel better,


Vic

Keep in mind that Morash supplies the funding of all those cool
dedicated machines. No wonder it takes me 2 weeks to build the same
project Norm makes in two days. At least my project is not filled
with brad nails.

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:14:40 -0400, Phisherman
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, "Vic Baron"
wrote:

Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
now I'm irritated again.

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take this
to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
basic tools and teach how to make things with them.

rant mode off -

Now I feel better,


Vic

Keep in mind that Morash supplies the funding of all those cool
dedicated machines.

Actually, having worked for an underwriter, I believe it is they who
supply all those nice machines. And since they are restricted in the
manner in which they can hawk same, the agreement is usually that they
will be used on the show for appropriate operations.

I don't mind that. If it were not for the underwriters, there would
be no show. There is often an alternative operation if you don't
happen to have the dedicated whatever, and more often and not I don't

Frank

No wonder it takes me 2 weeks to build the same
project Norm makes in two days. At least my project is not filled
with brad nails.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote

Actually, having worked for an underwriter, I believe it is they who
supply all those nice machines. And since they are restricted in the
manner in which they can hawk same, the agreement is usually that they
will be used on the show for appropriate operations.


Yabbut, blotting out the trademark will only fool the absolute novice. Most
people can recognize the brand of tool. Besides, isn't there a commercial
for the primary brand of tool on there anyway?

Sooo....., there may be some restrictions. But the the company (Delta) gets
pretty good exposure anyway, even with the restrictions.

Again, I am not complaining or implying anything improper. I just thinks it
smacks of the elitist, arrogant PBS culture. It just seems a little
hypocritical to me.

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:03:53 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote

Actually, having worked for an underwriter, I believe it is they who
supply all those nice machines. And since they are restricted in the
manner in which they can hawk same, the agreement is usually that they
will be used on the show for appropriate operations.


Yabbut, blotting out the trademark will only fool the absolute novice. Most
people can recognize the brand of tool. Besides, isn't there a commercial
for the primary brand of tool on there anyway?

Of course it is recognizable, there is nothing wrong with that. Trade
marks are not even covered. But the product can only be shown in
actual use in the context of the particular show and Norm cannot
mention the brand name. I believe that is honest at least compared to
commercials where all kinds of outlandish claims can be made with no
verification.

Yes the "underwriter" rules give you so many seconds to identify the
company, their primary business, and you can show as many shots of
products in use during that time.


Sooo....., there may be some restrictions. But the the company (Delta) gets
pretty good exposure anyway, even with the restrictions.

Yes, and they pay dearly for that exposure just as they would on a non
PBS ad. The difference is that they are not paying for ads by the
minutes they are paying a contract price to underwrite the show for
the season.

Again, I am not complaining or implying anything improper. I just thinks it
smacks of the elitist, arrogant PBS culture. It just seems a little
hypocritical to me.

Mixed feelings about PBS in general. But several of my favorite local
shows are there. Local being shows like Mississippi Outdoors and
others that I really enjoy. I don't like the begathons, strongly
believe the underwriting funding and limited public funding is best.
Underwriting brings quality, if no one watches, no underwriting.

Frank

Frank:


Sooo....., there may be some restrictions. But the the company (Delta) gets
pretty good exposure anyway, even with the restrictions.

Again, I am not complaining or implying anything improper. *I just thinks it
smacks of the elitist, arrogant PBS culture. *It just seems a little
hypocritical to me.

Hmm, well to let you know that PBS does NOT own NYW, TOH or Ask This
Old House.
Those shows are all produced by Time Warner. They are shown on PBS as
well
as DIY networks and local channels. Are they elitist?

Many seem to rail against Norm when he uses a brad nailer, that
wonderful
Timesaver belt sander, the Delta tablesaw, etc. But, few people have
them
but still watch. I'd bet more people took up or tried woodworking
because of
Norm. I haven't heard from anyone who gave it UP because of his tools!

I'm not sure how PBS comes across as elitist in accepting an
underwriter?
If you accept commercials, would that make it non-elitist?

MJM

wrote:
Frank:

Sooo....., there may be some restrictions. But the the company (Delta) gets
pretty good exposure anyway, even with the restrictions.

Again, I am not complaining or implying anything improper. I just thinks it
smacks of the elitist, arrogant PBS culture. It just seems a little
hypocritical to me.

Hmm, well to let you know that PBS does NOT own NYW, TOH or Ask This
Old House.
Those shows are all produced by Time Warner. They are shown on PBS as
well
as DIY networks and local channels. Are they elitist?

Many seem to rail against Norm when he uses a brad nailer, that
wonderful
Timesaver belt sander, the Delta tablesaw, etc. But, few people have
them
but still watch. I'd bet more people took up or tried woodworking
because of
Norm. I haven't heard from anyone who gave it UP because of his tools!


Nevertheless, it's still frustrating when, tuning in to see how to make
something, Norm uses tools most people will never have. For example,
using a mortising tool to cut a mortise instead of showing how to make a
mortise with a drill press, hammer and sharp chisel. And I cringe at
all the times he uses a brad nailer instead of clamps to hold pieces
together while the glue dries.

Stuart wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
Hmm, well to let you know that PBS does NOT own NYW, TOH or Ask This
Old House.
Those shows are all produced by Time Warner. They are shown on PBS as
well
as DIY networks and local channels. Are they elitist?

Being in the UK I know nothing of any of these channels and we don't
appear to have anything equivalent. Are any of them available over the net?

Hi Stuart,

I don't think they are available on the net, but there are a few short
segments on youtube. Just search for new yankee workshop. NYW has a nice
website at newyankee.com . There is always the newyankeecam on the
website if you are really bored and need to kill a few hours.
I ordered the video set on building a kitchen. While I don't do
everything as norm does, it was still a nice review on laying out and
building a kitchen.

Scott.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Stuart" wrote in message
...
In article
,
wrote:
Hmm, well to let you know that PBS does NOT own NYW, TOH or Ask This
Old House.
Those shows are all produced by Time Warner. They are shown on PBS as
well
as DIY networks and local channels. Are they elitist?

Being in the UK I know nothing of any of these channels and we don't
appear to have anything equivalent. Are any of them available over the
net?

--
Stuart Winsor

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

Hi Stuart,

This Old House and New Yankee Workshop are often able to be seen on the
Discovery Real-time and Discovery Real-time Extra channels on Sky and cable
TV, BUT be prepared to see only the 2003 & 2004 (for TOH) and 2004
(for NYW) season shows as Discovery in their wisdom hasn't deemed it fit for
us to see any of the later (or earlier) seasons. A real shame as I have
learned so much from them.

Yours (thoroughly disgusted with Discovery Real-time)

Micky

PS. Try "Flannelly's" in Coventry on 13th Sept for some Irish Country/Trad.
I'm playing there!

Lee Michaels wrote:
"Frank Boettcher" wrote
Actually, having worked for an underwriter, I believe it is they who
supply all those nice machines. And since they are restricted in the
manner in which they can hawk same, the agreement is usually that they
will be used on the show for appropriate operations.


Yabbut, blotting out the trademark will only fool the absolute novice. Most
people can recognize the brand of tool. Besides, isn't there a commercial
for the primary brand of tool on there anyway?

Sooo....., there may be some restrictions. But the the company (Delta) gets
pretty good exposure anyway, even with the restrictions.

Again, I am not complaining or implying anything improper. I just thinks it
smacks of the elitist, arrogant PBS culture. It just seems a little
hypocritical to me.






Not to mention painting out the green on the power hand tools.

Dave N

On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 19:26:51 -0500, "David G. Nagel"
wrote:

Not to mention painting out the green on the power hand tools.

When did he do that and to what tool?



--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...
Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
now I'm irritated again.

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
basic tools and teach how to make things with them.

rant mode off -

Now I feel better,


I like it when he says that he needed to smooth something. So he runs it
through that enormous belt sander he has. Ya know, the one big enough to
run a table top through it.

I mean, it would be an incredible luxury to just have the space that monster
occupies, let alone the enormous sander.

"Lee Michaels" wrote:

I like it when he says that he needed to smooth something. So he
runs it through that enormous belt sander he has. Ya know, the one
big enough to run a table top through it.

I mean, it would be an incredible luxury to just have the space that
monster occupies, let alone the enormous sander.

Very straight forward, use the services of a local drum sander.

The guy I ue has a 48" wide, 75HP, 3-grit machine complete with a 20HP
bag house dust collector.

You get a lot of sanding done for $25.(About 20 minutes)

I blank out all my tops with 7/8" stock then sand to 3.4" after
glue-up.

Keeps life simple that way.

Lew

In article ,
says...

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...
Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
now I'm irritated again.

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
basic tools and teach how to make things with them.

rant mode off -

Now I feel better,


I like it when he says that he needed to smooth something. So he runs it
through that enormous belt sander he has. Ya know, the one big enough to
run a table top through it.

I mean, it would be an incredible luxury to just have the space that monster
occupies, let alone the enormous sander.

When he made a blanket chest, he used a belt sander
to flush the dovetail joints. I can't fault his results,
but his method was an eyebrow raiser.

S.

Not to mention the wallet to pay the utility bill for all that high
horsepower gear...

Lee Michaels wrote:
"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...
Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
now I'm irritated again.

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
basic tools and teach how to make things with them.

rant mode off -

Now I feel better,


I like it when he says that he needed to smooth something. So he runs it
through that enormous belt sander he has. Ya know, the one big enough to
run a table top through it.

I mean, it would be an incredible luxury to just have the space that monster
occupies, let alone the enormous sander.

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, Vic Baron wrote:

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take this
to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

That's why I watch the Woodwright's Shop :-).

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, Vic Baron wrote:

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
this
to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

That's why I watch the Woodwright's Shop :-).

That is like knowing and waiting for an accident to happen. ;~)

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:32:16 -0500, Leon wrote:


"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message

That's why I watch the Woodwright's Shop :-).

That is like knowing and waiting for an accident to happen. ;~)

Just because he baptizes all his projects in blood? I tend to do that too
- especially since the "aspirin a day" routine started :-).

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, Vic Baron wrote:

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
this
to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

That's why I watch the Woodwright's Shop :-).

That is like knowing and waiting for an accident to happen. ;~)

It's like Nascar for Woodworkers!

-MJ

"Mark Johnson" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, Vic Baron wrote:

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just
take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
this
to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

That's why I watch the Woodwright's Shop :-).

That is like knowing and waiting for an accident to happen. ;~)

It's like Nascar for Woodworkers!

So it's like wannabes buying Pontiacs and driving like idiots on the
highway? Not sure I see the connection. ;~)

John

"John Grossbohlin" wrote in message
m...

It's like Nascar for Woodworkers!

So it's like wannabes buying Pontiacs and driving like idiots on the
highway? Not sure I see the connection. ;~)


No it is like the 95% of NASCAR fans that watch a NASCAR race hoping for
their favorite driver to win and just itching to see the inevitable crashes.
You don't know exactly when but you do know you are going to see a NASCAR
crash/Woodwright guy cut his finger.

"Mark Johnson" wrote in message

It's like Nascar for Woodworkers!

-MJ

I get it . Norm uses tools just like we all have. NASCAR drivers drive
stock cars just like we buy at the local Chevy dealer.

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:47:14 -0700, Vic Baron wrote:

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
this
to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

That's why I watch the Woodwright's Shop :-).

That's going too far the other way, I don't have time to do everything the
hard way with crude tools. I like power where it can save some heavy labor
and some hand where they can do the fine work. By the way, have you noticed
his hands are covered with band-aids, bandages, blackened finger nails and
other wounds from his tools.

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...
Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
now I'm irritated again.

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated molding
machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay with
basic tools and teach how to make things with them.

rant mode off -

Now I feel better,


No kidding, have you seen that cordless drill that he uses on his show every
time? One day maybe I'll be able to get rid of this hand crank drill I have
been using. ;~)

Different strokes for different folks. Personally I would want to graduate
to the next level after a period of time.

He IS the "power tool junkie", isn't he?
There are occasional woodworking shows where the guy has fewer tools.

I enjoy watching Norm at lot more than Billy Mays!!!!

Pete Stanaitis
---------------

Vic Baron wrote:
Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in
- now I'm irritated again.

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll just take
this to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a dedicated
molding machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay
with basic tools and teach how to make things with them.

rant mode off -

Now I feel better,


Vic

spaco wrote:
He IS the "power tool junkie", isn't he?
There are occasional woodworking shows where the guy has fewer tools.

I enjoy watching Norm at lot more than Billy Mays!!!!

Pete Stanaitis
---------------

Vic Baron wrote:
Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned
in - now I'm irritated again.

I just get fed up when he starts a project and then " now I'll just
take this to my dedicated molding machine" followed by " now I'll
just take this to my dedicated mortising machine", etc. If I had a
dedicated molding machine, etc I certainly wouldn't need Nahm to help me.

IMHO, if the show is aimed at home woodworkers in general, then stay
with basic tools and teach how to make things with them.

rant mode off -

Now I feel better,


Vic


Before everyone gets to upset, please note that many of the hotshot
tools are donated to the program by the manufacturer/retail sales store.
That's how he got the BIG belt sander. The carved wood sign was donated
also.
What gets me is David Marks and his marvelous MULTI-ROUTER. He sells it
for something like $3,500. That and his favorite wood finish: TUNG Oil

Dave N

"David G. Nagel" wrote in message
...

Before everyone gets to upset, please note that many of the hotshot tools
are donated to the program by the manufacturer/retail sales store. That's
how he got the BIG belt sander. The carved wood sign was donated also.

Yeah - everybody knows the stuff is donated. That's what makes us all
jealous...

--

-Mike-

"Vic Baron" wrote

now I'm irritated again.

Simple solution for that ... hit the "next" button.

For me, as one whose interest in furniture design has developed and advanced
beyond simply copying a plan, it is the _project_ itself, followed by Norm's
take on the joinery/method of construction of each, that has become the
focus of my interest in his shows ... not the tools he chooses for each
step.

IOW, the more complicated the projects that I've designed and built _without
benefit of plans_, the more I have begun to appreciate Norm's take on the
methodology of constructing the project, whether it reaffirms, or differs
from, what I have already figured out on my own as the best way to do
something.

Then there was Bruce Johnson ... proving there are some you just can't learn
a damn thing from ... unless it's how not to.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/18/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Aug 29, 10:04*am, "Swingman" wrote:
"Vic Baron" wrote

now I'm irritated again.

Simple solution for that ... hit the "next" button.

I was thinking the same thing. I don't watch Oprah, I don't watch
Maury, nor any of the judge shows. I rarely watch anything with my
free time that irritates me.

For me, as one whose interest in furniture design has developed and advanced
beyond simply copying a plan, it is the _project_ itself, followed by Norm's
take on the joinery/method of construction of each, that has become the
focus of my interest in his shows ... not the tools he chooses for each
step.

I think few truly understand and actually appreciate the breadth of
Norm's experience and projects. Or his experience with tools and his
knowledge of how to creatively apply their uses. Or his huge variance
in project selections.

In all the years I have been on this group as well as a few others,
there have been Norm bashers. I don't know why as I have never heard
him set himself out as an ancient zen master of woodworking as say,
Krenov. He has never, ever, put himself on a pedestal. He has never
held himself up and anything more than a simple woodworker, which is
simply not true. He shows doable projects that can challenge the
neophyte as well as the experienced wood worker.

When I started, the best advice I ever received about woodworking came
from my boss. I didn't have the tool in the truck to do a specific
job that I was assigned to do. So, I went back and complained to him
that we didn't have the right tools to do the job, so we couldn't do
the work.

He blew up. "WTF do you think is going on here? Where do you think
you are, in a tool store? Do you think where ever you go to work you
will always have the perfect tool for the work? Either go over there
and get it done or you can go home because I don't need you".

It didn't sound like advice and guidance at the time, but it certainly
was. For those that think they cannot do some of the projects because
they don't have the tools Norm does, they need to rethink their
procedures. They need to rethink their methods.

Norm builds by procedure, each project step by step. He shows how to
use the tools he has. But I have seen enough of him to bet any money
that without many of the tools he uses in the show, he could still get
the job done without many of them.

IOW, the more complicated the projects that I've designed and built _without
benefit of plans_, the more I have begun to appreciate Norm's take on the
methodology of constructing the project, whether it reaffirms, or differs
from, what I have already figured out on my own as the best way to do
something.

Allow me to expand on that a bit. I think there is a curve of
appreciation on watching Norm's show.

When many are beginning woodworking, some folks lay the fact that he
can do all the neat things on the idea that he has all the tools to do
what he does. So the tools make things so easy, he has a huge
advantage.

Then skills pick up, you find yourself able to do more with the tools
you have, and you start to think you are "getting it". You understand
more of what you read about woodworking, and more of the concepts
involved.

You knock out a couple of book cases, maybe a project for the wife,
and of course a couple of heritage pieces for the kids.

Now you are a craftsman. You have tools, a few projects behind you,
and your family and friends love your work. You must be good at this
stuff, right? Everyone says so.

People ask you for advice from time to time on their projects. You
try to help, but sometimes working with a noob can be frustrating.
You do what you can.

You decide that you like doing something differently than the examples
of work you have seen on TV. Great! The more you participate in ANY
craft, the more you realize how many paths there are to reach the same
goal, so you should get that fact.

Then, the dreaded day comes; you think you are better than you are.

Yup; definitely a better craft person than your neighbor, your wife
tells you that the vanity you built for he bathroom is much better
than the ones she has seen in the store, and the kids pounding on
their toy boxes and step ups haven't broken them yet. And that
storage shed you built out back to look like a little barn is holding
up quite well.

(Note: Norm STILL hasn't hit this point. He talks with a great
amount of respect of people that are in all manner of trades, and
seems to get a real sense of appreciation of his fellow craftsmen.)

Back to the curve, you are now dismissive of Norm and his baseball bat
project, his shadow boxes, or his coffee tables. You toss in the heap
his blanket chests, his Federalist style furniture, etc., and let your
buddies know you aren't impressed. Hell ya, you could build any of
that stuff if you just had the time, right?

You quit watching Norm.

If you keep working on developing your skills, or start to work
professionally, you change your idea of where you are in the big
picture of woodworking skill sets. Probably not as far along as you
thought if you are around the right people.

Then one day it rains on Saturday and you are inside. Nothing on TV,
nothing to do outside, so between the cooking shows you decide to see
what Norm's up to.

You now have different eyes to see this work. Eyes that understand
that one little detail in design and execution can save hours of
work. These details don't have anything to do with the tools he
uses. But you missed the details the first time because he didn't
sound a horn when he is executing them, and since they didn't look
that important you missed them. But now you see.

Then you start to appreciate Norm. My style of building in my
business is different from Norm's. There was no Norm when I started,
and we didn't have a lot of tools. We were on site carpenters, and we
learned to use the tools we had. My old habits are sometimes hard to
break, and I don't.

But on the other hand (see, here comes the end of the curve, right
there at your post) I really appreciate a good look at alternatives to
all kinds of carpentry work. I like Norm's pragmatic organization/
detailing/procedures in building his work as that is the way my mind
works.

So in the end, I think you have to learn more to appreciate old Norm
for what he really is; a good teacher and a fearless woodworker.
Pretty damn good craftsman, too.

Just don't get me going about his finishing...

Robert

wrote

Allow me to expand on that a bit. I think there is a curve of
appreciation on watching Norm's show.

Well said ... what I meant, but didn't get across.

Just don't get me going about his finishing...

LOL I can sympathize with him on that ... we all have our Achilles heel!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/18/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Aug 29, 11:57*am, "Swingman" wrote:

LOL I can sympathize with him on that ... we all have our Achilles heel!

No kidding. Sometimes I feel like both of mine are!

Robert

wrote

Just don't get me going about his finishing...

That used to drive me nuts. He is better now though.

I remember years ago when my wife saw him paint over a beautiful wood
project with green milk paint. She screamed, "Why is he doing that"?

I tried to explain Norm Abrams to her. She didn't get it.

On Aug 29, 12:22*pm, "Lee Michaels" wrote:
I remember years ago when my wife saw him paint over a beautiful wood
project with green milk paint. *She screamed, "Why is he doing that"?

I tried to explain Norm Abrams to her. She didn't get it.
Truthfully, neither do I. :-)

At the first Woodcraft Parking Lot Show I went to in Madison, they had
Scott Phillips from American woodshop doing some demos. That was fun.
Especially the part where he talks about Norm's Belt Sander. "It's a
great machine except it takes up more space than a car and when he
turns it on he browns out Boston!"

But I still watch the show. He's like family. He exasperates me at
times but his heart's in the right place.

Lee Michaels wrote:


I remember years ago when my wife saw him paint over a beautiful wood
project with green milk paint.

I've seen Adam Cherubini do the same, for entirely different reasons.

wrote:
On Aug 29, 10:04 am, "Swingman" wrote:
"Vic Baron" wrote

now I'm irritated again.
Simple solution for that ... hit the "next" button.

I was thinking the same thing. I don't watch Oprah, I don't watch
Maury, nor any of the judge shows. I rarely watch anything with my
free time that irritates me.

For me, as one whose interest in furniture design has developed and advanced
beyond simply copying a plan, it is the _project_ itself, followed by Norm's
take on the joinery/method of construction of each, that has become the
focus of my interest in his shows ... not the tools he chooses for each
step.

I think few truly understand and actually appreciate the breadth of
Norm's experience and projects. Or his experience with tools and his
knowledge of how to creatively apply their uses. Or his huge variance
in project selections.

In all the years I have been on this group as well as a few others,
there have been Norm bashers. I don't know why as I have never heard
him set himself out as an ancient zen master of woodworking as say,
Krenov. He has never, ever, put himself on a pedestal. He has never
held himself up and anything more than a simple woodworker, which is
simply not true. He shows doable projects that can challenge the
neophyte as well as the experienced wood worker.

When I started, the best advice I ever received about woodworking came
from my boss. I didn't have the tool in the truck to do a specific
job that I was assigned to do. So, I went back and complained to him
that we didn't have the right tools to do the job, so we couldn't do
the work.

He blew up. "WTF do you think is going on here? Where do you think
you are, in a tool store? Do you think where ever you go to work you
will always have the perfect tool for the work? Either go over there
and get it done or you can go home because I don't need you".

It didn't sound like advice and guidance at the time, but it certainly
was. For those that think they cannot do some of the projects because
they don't have the tools Norm does, they need to rethink their
procedures. They need to rethink their methods.

Norm builds by procedure, each project step by step. He shows how to
use the tools he has. But I have seen enough of him to bet any money
that without many of the tools he uses in the show, he could still get
the job done without many of them.

IOW, the more complicated the projects that I've designed and built _without
benefit of plans_, the more I have begun to appreciate Norm's take on the
methodology of constructing the project, whether it reaffirms, or differs
from, what I have already figured out on my own as the best way to do
something.

Allow me to expand on that a bit. I think there is a curve of
appreciation on watching Norm's show.

When many are beginning woodworking, some folks lay the fact that he
can do all the neat things on the idea that he has all the tools to do
what he does. So the tools make things so easy, he has a huge
advantage.

Then skills pick up, you find yourself able to do more with the tools
you have, and you start to think you are "getting it". You understand
more of what you read about woodworking, and more of the concepts
involved.

You knock out a couple of book cases, maybe a project for the wife,
and of course a couple of heritage pieces for the kids.

Now you are a craftsman. You have tools, a few projects behind you,
and your family and friends love your work. You must be good at this
stuff, right? Everyone says so.

People ask you for advice from time to time on their projects. You
try to help, but sometimes working with a noob can be frustrating.
You do what you can.

You decide that you like doing something differently than the examples
of work you have seen on TV. Great! The more you participate in ANY
craft, the more you realize how many paths there are to reach the same
goal, so you should get that fact.

Then, the dreaded day comes; you think you are better than you are.

Yup; definitely a better craft person than your neighbor, your wife
tells you that the vanity you built for he bathroom is much better
than the ones she has seen in the store, and the kids pounding on
their toy boxes and step ups haven't broken them yet. And that
storage shed you built out back to look like a little barn is holding
up quite well.

(Note: Norm STILL hasn't hit this point. He talks with a great
amount of respect of people that are in all manner of trades, and
seems to get a real sense of appreciation of his fellow craftsmen.)

Back to the curve, you are now dismissive of Norm and his baseball bat
project, his shadow boxes, or his coffee tables. You toss in the heap
his blanket chests, his Federalist style furniture, etc., and let your
buddies know you aren't impressed. Hell ya, you could build any of
that stuff if you just had the time, right?

You quit watching Norm.

If you keep working on developing your skills, or start to work
professionally, you change your idea of where you are in the big
picture of woodworking skill sets. Probably not as far along as you
thought if you are around the right people.

Then one day it rains on Saturday and you are inside. Nothing on TV,
nothing to do outside, so between the cooking shows you decide to see
what Norm's up to.

You now have different eyes to see this work. Eyes that understand
that one little detail in design and execution can save hours of
work. These details don't have anything to do with the tools he
uses. But you missed the details the first time because he didn't
sound a horn when he is executing them, and since they didn't look
that important you missed them. But now you see.

Then you start to appreciate Norm. My style of building in my
business is different from Norm's. There was no Norm when I started,
and we didn't have a lot of tools. We were on site carpenters, and we
learned to use the tools we had. My old habits are sometimes hard to
break, and I don't.

But on the other hand (see, here comes the end of the curve, right
there at your post) I really appreciate a good look at alternatives to
all kinds of carpentry work. I like Norm's pragmatic organization/
detailing/procedures in building his work as that is the way my mind
works.

So in the end, I think you have to learn more to appreciate old Norm
for what he really is; a good teacher and a fearless woodworker.
Pretty damn good craftsman, too.

Just don't get me going about his finishing...

Robert

Robert;

It should also be noted that Norm isn't above commenting that he just
learned a new trick or new technique from someone.
I know that I learn something from every show I watch, even one that I
have seen a dozen times.
Norm is a TEACHER as well as a CRAFTSMAN.
He's just luckier than you and I.

Dave N

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Vic Baron" wrote

now I'm irritated again.

Simple solution for that ... hit the "next" button.

The full line was:
Haven't watched the NYWS in a while and had some free time and tuned in -
now I'm irritated again.

I HAVE been using the next button, just not the last time!



For me, as one whose interest in furniture design has developed and
advanced beyond simply copying a plan, it is the _project_ itself,
followed by Norm's take on the joinery/method of construction of each,
that has become the focus of my interest in his shows ... not the tools he
chooses for each step.

Actually, I agree, I would just like to see him do it the "old" way. As far
as the broadcast is concerned it takes no more time than using the dedicated
whatever.

I would venture a guess that IF you own a dedicated molder then you pretty
well know how to use it. If Ihad to make that multiple curved foot he made
on the show I watched, I would have to use either the bandsaw or multiple
passes with a router. I would have preferred his technique on doing that
rather than running a chunk through a molder and voila! a curved foot.

I think that he can scare away as many new woodworkers as he attracts - at
least with this type of show.


Just MHO








IOW, the more complicated the projects that I've designed and built
_without benefit of plans_, the more I have begun to appreciate Norm's
take on the methodology of constructing the project, whether it reaffirms,
or differs from, what I have already figured out on my own as the best way
to do something.

Then there was Bruce Johnson ... proving there are some you just can't
learn a damn thing from ... unless it's how not to.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/18/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...


I think that he can scare away as many new woodworkers as he attracts - at
least with this type of show.


So what? Do you really believe those beloved "old ways" would be more
enticing to those scores of new woodworkers that you suspect he scares away?

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"Vic Baron" wrote in message
...


I think that he can scare away as many new woodworkers as he attracts -
at least with this type of show.


So what? Do you really believe those beloved "old ways" would be more
enticing to those scores of new woodworkers that you suspect he scares
away?

--

-Mike-



"So what" could be said about any post in any thread - it's my opinion and
I'm sticking to it.

And who the heck said anything about beloved old ways? I don't really give a
rat's ass. I am being totally selfish. I do not use a dedicated molding
machine and I want to see how he would do it without. I am not interested in
seeing him use tools that are beyond the average *home* woodworker. If I
wanted to see how a major woodworking company might tackle a project, I'd
look elsewhere.

Vic Baron wrote:


I am not
interested in seeing him use tools that are beyond the average *home*
woodworker.

There are molding machines that cost less than a cabinet saw.

http://www.southern-tool.com/store/WilliamHusseyOriginalMolder.html
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyId=2058
http://grizzly.com/products/G1037Z

There's always Bruce Johnson...