http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/ma...nted=1&_r=1&hp


Interesting - and so are the comments posted on the blog about the
article.



Regards, Tom.

Thos. J. Watson - Cabinetmaker
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/ma...nted=1&_r=1&hp


Interesting - and so are the comments posted on the blog about the
article.

You gotta love the "wired world" ... instead of being on the cusp of an age
of enlightenment, we're actually drowning in a sea of ignorance, based on
the phenomenon that the more "facts" available from which to draw wrong
conclusions, the more wrong conclusions there are available as "facts".

.... and sick puppies abound.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Aug 1, 10:26 am, Tom Watson wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/ma...tml?pagewanted...

Interesting - and so are the comments posted on the blog about the
article.

Regards, Tom.

Thos. J. Watson - Cabinetmakerhttp://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet

Talk about thought provoking.

This is kinda of a hot bed subject with me. These kids stand for
pretty much everything I find distasteful; lack of respect for their
fellow man, lack of manners, lack of personal substance, and worse
just loving starting trouble at other's expense.

But where do these kids come from? This is what normally gets me in
trouble with my comrades. They are the children and grandchildren or
our generation, right? So how did these kids and grandkids wind up
with such a pathetic mindset? Who didn't do their job as parents?

It is an easy cop to say "well, my kids aren't that way" and see it as
an aberration. Yet how many parents are surprised by the "trouble"
their kids seem to find themselves in? Grandparents seem even more
bewildered as to why the just a couple of generations down the kids
are not only meaner to each other, but mean just for the fun of it to
people they don't even know.

Where did this last two generations of kids get their values? No one
seems to know and no one wants to claim them. All they know is THEIR
kids and grandkids aren't that way.

Yet more and more, as the ugly side of internet anonymity is uncovered
and makes itself more well known, we see even the "parents" (note the
now famous suicide of the girl from cyberbullying) getting involved in
this nasty, mean spirited behavior.

As with forums and newgroups, anonymity seems to generate a
radioactive field that creates giant egos, big mouths, and the need to
be the baddest guy on the group. And the know it alls... wow. It
doesn't matter the subject of interest or the venue, they are their in
droves with the cliques in place.

For a bored kid with nothing to do (I can hear the scratchy, raspy
voices saying "Why in my day, we had three summer jobs as opposed to
the two full time jobs we had during the school year")
this is a target rich environment. They can come over here and
announce they are a woodworker with thirty years experience in
woodworking, and they always love HD and their products, Norm is
better than Krenov, brad nails rule, you should always paint cherry,
declare any position on any political topic, etc, and ghen go to do
something else for a few hours.

When they come back, they have to be gleeful. All the chest thumping
here from the guys "that have been doing something for 30 years so
don't tell me" and "I was in the same city at the time so I am an
expert on that", or "everyone knows this is the correct way to think
except you (a variant of 'you can't be stupid enough to believe what
you just typed')". This is not as bad as other venues, but it does
get ugly very quickly. Tempers flare, nasty things are said,
boundaries of respect for the opinions of others are crossed.

Yet in my mind, I see some keyboard badass (middle aged or better,
thinning gray hair, glasses, kids that don't listen to him, a wife
that has travails of her own so no time for his, out-of-shape-but-
working-on-it-I-can-still-kick-your-ass,
kinda guy bragging to his kids how he had to use his vast intellectual
knowledge to put some wiseguy in their place.
Right proud of himself for launching a tirade against someone that may
have more trouble typing than he would admit, making it harder still
to express himself.

But all that is important to our keyboard cowboy is that he bested
that "idiot", he followed the herd mentality of like minded thinking
and just for a moment was the head of the pack. He was popular! As
the kids say, "he owned that MF!".

Yup. Sitting there typing this, I'd even bet that 16 year old snot in
the picture didn't buy his computer... someone gave to him; he didn't
buy it himself. So where o where does someone think he picked up his
attitude and cowardly way of trouble making and lack of respect for
others? What example was set for that young idiot to follow that
lead him to believe that in ANY way his behavior is/was acceptable.
Who could have set that bad example?

Of course, no one we know, no one we are related to, and ditto the
exculpatory language for any of our friends.

I have no kids, as nature took a different course for me. So it is
odd for me to see and talk to my friends that have kids and grandkids
that cannot figure out one whit of why the progeny act a certain way
(they damn sure didn't learn that here!) or to listen to the laments
of the grandfathers that have grandkids in their early teens now.
Many of these folks that are my friends and co-workers now are good
guys in late middle age. But I sure wouldn't have wanted any of them
for a father.

But yet, no one seems to have a clue how all the bad behavior starts
or how it became so prevalent.

Hmmm.... just thinking out loud here.

Robert

On Aug 1, 1:16*pm, "
wrote:
On Aug 1, 10:26 am, Tom Watson wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/ma...tml?pagewanted...

Interesting - and so are the comments posted on the blog about the
article.

Regards, Tom.

Thos. J. Watson - Cabinetmakerhttp://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet

Talk about thought provoking.

This is kinda of a hot bed subject with me. *These kids stand for
pretty much everything I find distasteful; lack of respect for their
fellow man, lack of manners, lack of personal substance, and worse
just loving starting trouble at other's expense.

But where do these kids come from? *This is what normally gets me in
trouble with my comrades. *They are the children and grandchildren or
our generation, right? *So how did these kids and grandkids wind up
with such a pathetic mindset? *Who didn't do their job as parents?

It is an easy cop to say "well, my kids aren't that way" and see it as
an aberration. *Yet how many parents are surprised by the "trouble"
their kids seem to find themselves in? *Grandparents seem even more
bewildered as to why the just a couple of generations down the kids
are not only meaner to each other, but mean just for the fun of it to
people they don't even know.

Where did this last two generations of kids get their values? *No one
seems to know and no one wants to claim them. *All they know is THEIR
kids and grandkids aren't that way.

Yet more and more, as the ugly side of internet anonymity is uncovered
and makes itself more well known, we see even the "parents" (note the
now famous suicide of the girl from cyberbullying) getting involved in
this nasty, mean spirited behavior.

As with forums and newgroups, anonymity seems to generate a
radioactive field that creates giant egos, big mouths, and the need to
be the baddest guy on the group. *And the know it alls... wow. *It
doesn't matter the subject of interest or the venue, they are their in
droves with the cliques in place.

For a bored kid with nothing to do (I can hear the scratchy, raspy
voices saying "Why in my day, we had three summer jobs as opposed to
the two full time jobs we had during the school year")
this is a target rich environment. *They can come over here and
announce they are a woodworker with thirty years experience in
woodworking, and they always love HD and their products, Norm is
better than Krenov, brad nails rule, you should always paint cherry,
declare any position on any political topic, etc, and ghen go to do
something else for a few hours.

When they come back, they have to be gleeful. *All the chest thumping
here from the guys "that have been doing something for 30 years so
don't tell me" and "I was in the same city at the time so I am an
expert on that", or "everyone knows this is the correct way to think
except you (a variant of 'you can't be stupid enough to believe what
you just typed')". *This is not as bad as other venues, but it does
get ugly very quickly. *Tempers flare, nasty things are said,
boundaries of respect for the opinions of others are crossed.

Yet in my mind, I see some keyboard badass (middle aged or better,
thinning gray hair, glasses, kids that don't listen to him, a wife
that has travails of her own so no time for his, out-of-shape-but-
working-on-it-I-can-still-kick-your-ass,
kinda guy bragging to his kids how he had to use his vast intellectual
knowledge to put some wiseguy in their place.
Right proud of himself for launching a tirade against someone that may
have more trouble typing than he would admit, making it harder still
to express himself.

But all that is important to our keyboard cowboy is that he bested
that "idiot", he followed the herd mentality of like minded thinking
and just for a moment was the head of the pack. *He was popular! *As
the kids say, "he owned that MF!".

Yup. *Sitting there typing this, I'd even bet that 16 year old snot in
the picture didn't buy his computer... someone gave to him; he didn't
buy it himself. * So where o where does someone think he picked up his
attitude and cowardly way of trouble making and lack of respect for
others? * What example was set for that young idiot to follow that
lead him to believe that in ANY way his behavior is/was acceptable.
Who could have set that bad example?

Of course, no one we know, no one we are related to, and ditto the
exculpatory language for any of our friends.

I have no kids, as nature took a different course for me. *So it is
odd for me to see and talk to my friends that have kids and grandkids
that cannot figure out one whit of why the progeny act a certain way
(they damn sure didn't learn that here!) or to listen to the laments
of the grandfathers that have grandkids in their early teens now.
Many of these folks that are my friends and co-workers now are good
guys in late middle age. * But I sure wouldn't have wanted any of them
for a father.

But yet, no one seems to have a clue how all the bad behavior starts
or how it became so prevalent.

Hmmm.... *just thinking out loud here.

Robert

Thought provoking indeed. Rebellious punks will always BE rebellious
punks. It's a phase most kids try on for size. They fart
*giggles*..the big difference is that now they fart into a megaphone
called the internet. It's the same ****, only louder with a MUCH wider
audience.

Then there is that ol' fashioned one-up-man-ship.

more later.

On Aug 1, 1:16 pm, "
wrote:
On Aug 1, 10:26 am, Tom Watson wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/ma...tml?pagewanted...

Interesting - and so are the comments posted on the blog about the
article.

Regards, Tom.

Thos. J. Watson - Cabinetmakerhttp://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet

Talk about thought provoking.

This is kinda of a hot bed subject with me. These kids stand for
pretty much everything I find distasteful; lack of respect for their
fellow man, lack of manners, lack of personal substance, and worse
just loving starting trouble at other's expense.

But where do these kids come from? This is what normally gets me in
trouble with my comrades. They are the children and grandchildren or
our generation, right? So how did these kids and grandkids wind up
with such a pathetic mindset? Who didn't do their job as parents?

It is an easy cop to say "well, my kids aren't that way" and see it as
an aberration. Yet how many parents are surprised by the "trouble"
their kids seem to find themselves in? Grandparents seem even more
bewildered as to why the just a couple of generations down the kids
are not only meaner to each other, but mean just for the fun of it to
people they don't even know.

Where did this last two generations of kids get their values? No one
seems to know and no one wants to claim them. All they know is THEIR
kids and grandkids aren't that way.

Yet more and more, as the ugly side of internet anonymity is uncovered
and makes itself more well known, we see even the "parents" (note the
now famous suicide of the girl from cyberbullying) getting involved in
this nasty, mean spirited behavior.

As with forums and newgroups, anonymity seems to generate a
radioactive field that creates giant egos, big mouths, and the need to
be the baddest guy on the group. And the know it alls... wow. It
doesn't matter the subject of interest or the venue, they are their in
droves with the cliques in place.

For a bored kid with nothing to do (I can hear the scratchy, raspy
voices saying "Why in my day, we had three summer jobs as opposed to
the two full time jobs we had during the school year")
this is a target rich environment. They can come over here and
announce they are a woodworker with thirty years experience in
woodworking, and they always love HD and their products, Norm is
better than Krenov, brad nails rule, you should always paint cherry,
declare any position on any political topic, etc, and ghen go to do
something else for a few hours.

When they come back, they have to be gleeful. All the chest thumping
here from the guys "that have been doing something for 30 years so
don't tell me" and "I was in the same city at the time so I am an
expert on that", or "everyone knows this is the correct way to think
except you (a variant of 'you can't be stupid enough to believe what
you just typed')". This is not as bad as other venues, but it does
get ugly very quickly. Tempers flare, nasty things are said,
boundaries of respect for the opinions of others are crossed.

Yet in my mind, I see some keyboard badass (middle aged or better,
thinning gray hair, glasses, kids that don't listen to him, a wife
that has travails of her own so no time for his, out-of-shape-but-
working-on-it-I-can-still-kick-your-ass,
kinda guy bragging to his kids how he had to use his vast intellectual
knowledge to put some wiseguy in their place.
Right proud of himself for launching a tirade against someone that may
have more trouble typing than he would admit, making it harder still
to express himself.

But all that is important to our keyboard cowboy is that he bested
that "idiot", he followed the herd mentality of like minded thinking
and just for a moment was the head of the pack. He was popular! As
the kids say, "he owned that MF!".

Yup. Sitting there typing this, I'd even bet that 16 year old snot in
the picture didn't buy his computer... someone gave to him; he didn't
buy it himself. So where o where does someone think he picked up his
attitude and cowardly way of trouble making and lack of respect for
others? What example was set for that young idiot to follow that
lead him to believe that in ANY way his behavior is/was acceptable.
Who could have set that bad example?

Of course, no one we know, no one we are related to, and ditto the
exculpatory language for any of our friends.

I have no kids, as nature took a different course for me. So it is
odd for me to see and talk to my friends that have kids and grandkids
that cannot figure out one whit of why the progeny act a certain way
(they damn sure didn't learn that here!) or to listen to the laments
of the grandfathers that have grandkids in their early teens now.
Many of these folks that are my friends and co-workers now are good
guys in late middle age. But I sure wouldn't have wanted any of them
for a father.

But yet, no one seems to have a clue how all the bad behavior starts
or how it became so prevalent.

Hmmm.... just thinking out loud here.

Robert

Two excesses, both allowed by, and promoted by, parents: excess and
self-esteem. An excess of material things, because the parents both
work and don't have time to otherwise pay attention; self-esteem from
the simple fact of being born in the U.S., too often to parents who
can provide the material things, but have no knowledge, personal or
otherwise, about discipline and hugs as rewards for actually doing
something pleasant, constructive or useful.

Parental guidance is lacking, the load is transferred to schools, and
then the parents bitch about the schools being lousy because little
Sally and Willy spend their time doing things other than learning
their subjects...like the good, little church-going girl around here
who was disciplined, if you can call it that, for giving a boy a BJ in
the hallway of the high school, while the other kids were in class. 15
years old. She claimed he threatened her, but three weeks later was
caught doing the same thing, to another boy, behind her church.
Overall, she got three days' detention from the school and a scolding
from her parents who also chastised the schools for not providing
appropriate guidance...probably wanted the kid taught to do her work
in the janitor's closet.

Add to it all the fact that the lack of any realistic punishment is
encouragement both for that child and for others.

"Robatoy" wrote

the big difference is that now they fart into a megaphone
called the internet. It's the same ****, only louder with a MUCH wider
audience.


.... the bucks are bigger!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)