First off, I am nowhere near the league of most of you here. I've
puttered around since about 1970, made a couple of pieces of colonial
furniture out of pine, turned a few bowls, etc. I was transferred in
1984 to a house that didn't really have room for a shop, even though I
took the tools with me. Transferred again in '88 to a place with a
1,200 square foot 5 1/2 car garage. Beautiful.

Well, one thing led to another, I never set up the shop, I retired in
'92, started my own business, yada, yada, yada... Just in the last
couple of months I have cleaned out half the garage and set up my
shop.

All of which is just background to the subject of this post.

I've started doing very simple things to get back the feel of using
power tools and I've been reminded of how much trouble I have keeping
things square, plumb, and level.

I have the right tools. I understand the geometry. But sometimes
things just don't work out.

Case in point.

I have a 36" chalkboard in my shop. I made a pair of legs out of 6'
2.4s each of which forms a "T" with a short piece of 2x4. Under the Ts
I have casters so I can move the thing around. The chalkboard is
screwed to the legs flush to the top edge.

So far, so good.

Last night I realized I have a white board sitting around unused, so I
decided to mount it on the other side of the legs, giving me a
two-sided easel. The white board is shorter than the chalkboard, so I
mounted it a few inches lower than the top edge of the legs.

I clamped a 1x2 scab at the height I wanted the bottom of the board,
got out my shiny new Craftsman laser level with digital readout, and
leveled the scab to dead level. I set the white board on the scab and
screwed it into place. When I stepped back to look at it, it was
crooked. There was definitely more leg showing above one side than the
other.

Took it all down, did it again, same result.

To make a long story short, I finally realized that the entire
apparatus was sitting near a floor drain and the floor at that point
slopes toward the drain. I had leveled the board to the horizon, but
not to the frame it was attached to. I had never noticed with the
chalkboard because it was mounted flush with the top of the legs.

I'd have been better off just marking six inches down from the top and
mounting the white board accordingly. I'm leaving it crooked as a
reminder about making assumptions when working on projects.

Subject

Remember the 3-4-5 right triangle (3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2.).

It is a good way to insure a square 90 degree corner.

As an example:

Measure 30" along one edge and mark, 40" along the adjacent edge and mark,
then adjust edges until the measurement between the marks (along the
diagonal) is 50".

Another technique is to insure the diagonals of a retangular piecem are
equal.

Have fun.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

Subject

Remember the 3-4-5 right triangle (3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2.).

It is a good way to insure a square 90 degree corner.

As an example:

Measure 30" along one edge and mark, 40" along the adjacent edge and mark,
then adjust edges until the measurement between the marks (along the
diagonal) is 50".

Another technique is to insure the diagonals of a retangular piecem are
equal.

Have fun.

And if two lines are parallel, a line perpendicular to one must be
perpendicular to the other. If three corners are square, the fourth
must be square, etc.

Like I said, I know the geometry, but sometimes it seems like the laws
of the universe are temporarily suspended just to mess with me. The
source of the problem with the white board was more mundane, but there
have been times I've tried to square up a simple box and given up in
frustration.

Use a level when building a room or a permanent fixture, not a movable
object.

"Richard Evans" wrote:

And if two lines are parallel, a line perpendicular to one must be
perpendicular to the other. If three corners are square, the fourth
must be square, etc.

Like I said, I know the geometry, but sometimes it seems like the laws
of the universe are temporarily suspended just to mess with me. The
source of the problem with the white board was more mundane, but there
have been times I've tried to square up a simple box and given up in
frustration.

Repeating with a clean copy from previous post:

Another technique is to insure the diagonals of a retangular piece are
equal.

It definitely solves your problem.

Sorry for the previous spelling problem.


Lew

Richard Evans wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

Subject

Remember the 3-4-5 right triangle (3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2.).

It is a good way to insure a square 90 degree corner.

As an example:

Measure 30" along one edge and mark, 40" along the adjacent edge and mark,
then adjust edges until the measurement between the marks (along the
diagonal) is 50".

Another technique is to insure the diagonals of a retangular piecem are
equal.

Have fun.

And if two lines are parallel, a line perpendicular to one must be
perpendicular to the other. If three corners are square, the fourth
must be square, etc.

Like I said, I know the geometry, but sometimes it seems like the laws
of the universe are temporarily suspended just to mess with me. The
source of the problem with the white board was more mundane, but there
have been times I've tried to square up a simple box and given up in
frustration.

I'm feeling your pain, Richard. There was a time when I couldn't get
anything level if my life depended on it, and your trick with the drain
is something I haven't done - yet. No drains in my shop.

I'm not sure what happened that makes things level now. Old age, maybe.
I know it's likely happened but I've never witnessed a level that isn't.
Each time I use one, things end up level. Each time I don't, neither do
they.

These days, most boxes turn out square. For YEARS, I used squares on
each corner to ensure that the thing would never be square. 4 readings
on the box would show different levels of unsquareness. Tweaking would
give me 4 different readings of unsquareness. Tweaking yet
again....well, you get the idea. One time, I said to hell with it and
banged the whole thing together. Damn ..it was square!. How I did that I
have no idea, and spent years trying to repeat it. Eventually geometry
caught up with me and somebody took pity on me, showing me the even
diagonals trick. Life started to make sense.

Of course, that year the truck died and the dog ran off....

2 outa three ain't bad. Plumb has been solved, however, by the discovery
after years of research. The solution is that it simply does not exist.

It's analagous to the lack of fish in my lake. Sure, some guys pull
4.5 lb bass out of the lake and bring them to show me. They bought the
fish in the city and drove all the way up here to do that. It's the same
thing with plumb. Plumbobs were invented by the Jihadists. If you buy
one, and use it, the terrorists have won.

If things were meant to be plumb, God woulda made straight trees.

Nuff said.

--

Tanus

http://www.home.mycybernet.net/~waugh/shop/

Tanus wrote:


These days, most boxes turn out square. For YEARS, I used squares on
each corner to ensure that the thing would never be square. 4 readings
on the box would show different levels of unsquareness. Tweaking would
give me 4 different readings of unsquareness. Tweaking yet
again....well, you get the idea.

YES! YES! That's exactly what I'm talking about.

"Tanus" wrote in message
If things were meant to be plumb, God woulda made straight trees.

He does. They're called bamboo and they masquerade under the illusion that
they're a type of grass.

On Jul 11, 11:35*am, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
Subject

Remember the 3-4-5 right triangle (3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2.).

Another set of numbers 5 12 13

On Jul 11, 1:12*pm, Richard Evans wrote:
First off, I am nowhere near the league of most of you here. I've
puttered around since about 1970, made a couple of pieces of colonial
furniture out of pine, turned a few bowls, etc. I was transferred in
1984 to a house that didn't really have room for a shop, even though I
took the tools with me. Transferred again in '88 to a place with a
1,200 square foot 5 1/2 car garage. Beautiful.

Well, one thing led to another, I never set up the shop, I retired in
'92, started my own business, yada, yada, yada... Just in the last
couple of months I have cleaned out half the garage and set up my
shop.

All of which is just background to the subject of this post.

I've started doing very simple things to get back the feel of using
power tools and I've been reminded of how much trouble I have keeping
things square, plumb, and level.

I have the right tools. I understand the geometry. But sometimes
things just don't work out.

Case in point.

I have a 36" chalkboard in my shop. I made a pair of legs out of 6'
2.4s each of which forms a "T" with a short piece of 2x4. Under the Ts
I have casters so I can move the thing around. The chalkboard is
screwed to the legs flush to the top edge.

So far, so good.

Last night I realized I have a white board sitting around unused, so I
decided to mount it on the other side of the legs, giving me a
two-sided easel. The white board is shorter than the chalkboard, so I
mounted it a few inches lower than the top edge of the legs.

I clamped a 1x2 scab at the height I wanted the bottom of the board,
got out my shiny new Craftsman laser level with digital readout, and
leveled the scab to dead level. I set the white board on the scab and
screwed it into place. When I stepped back to look at it, it was
crooked. There was definitely more leg showing above one side than the
other.

Took it all down, did it again, same result.

To make a long story short, I finally realized that the entire
apparatus was sitting near a floor drain and the floor at that point
slopes toward the drain. I had leveled the board to the horizon, but
not to the frame it was attached to. I had never noticed with the
chalkboard because it was mounted flush with the top of the legs.

I'd have been better off just marking six inches down from the top and
mounting the white board accordingly. I'm leaving it crooked as a
reminder about making assumptions when working on projects.

Here's a rule of thumb that may help. Things that are permanently
fastended to the world are built level and/or plumb. Things that move
around are built square using only itself as a reference. Several
years ago, a contractor was erecting a steel building on a river barge
for us. This barge was roughly 195' X 35', so it's sort of easy to
forget your're floating. As each vertical post was installed, he
carefully plumbed it. But when he tried to connect the horizontal
members, they wouldn't fit. All of his posts were out of plumb
because the forklift he used to set the posts upright caused the barge
to list - first to one side, then the other. Only when he started
building square to the barge instead of level and plumb was he able to
make things work.

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him". - Thomas
Carlyle

Richard Evans wrote:

I'd have been better off just marking six inches down from the top and
mounting the white board accordingly. I'm leaving it crooked as a
reminder about making assumptions when working on projects.

Last fall I built a large builtin storage cabinet, in our sunroom, previous
owner had enclosed a back deck, which sloped to let the rain run off. I
hired out getting new windows and siding put on for the exterior, but
wanted to do the interior myself. Anyway...

As the floor sloped, I just used a level for the top pieces, adjusted clamps
for the supporting pieces for the pre-squared top rectangle until it showed
level, then made my marks and cuts. It turned out perfect
--
Froz...

FrozenNorth wrote:

Richard Evans wrote:

I'd have been better off just marking six inches down from the top and
mounting the white board accordingly. I'm leaving it crooked as a
reminder about making assumptions when working on projects.

Last fall I built a large builtin storage cabinet, in our sunroom, previous
owner had enclosed a back deck, which sloped to let the rain run off. I
hired out getting new windows and siding put on for the exterior, but
wanted to do the interior myself. Anyway...

As the floor sloped, I just used a level for the top pieces, adjusted clamps
for the supporting pieces for the pre-squared top rectangle until it showed
level, then made my marks and cuts. It turned out perfect

Yabbut you knew it sloped and planned accordingly. I was assuming I
was working on the level and couldnt figure out why the end result was
crooked.

"Richard Evans" wrote in message
...
"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

Subject

Remember the 3-4-5 right triangle (3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2.).

It is a good way to insure a square 90 degree corner.

As an example:

Measure 30" along one edge and mark, 40" along the adjacent edge and mark,
then adjust edges until the measurement between the marks (along the
diagonal) is 50".

Another technique is to insure the diagonals of a retangular piecem are
equal.

Have fun.

And if two lines are parallel, a line perpendicular to one must be
perpendicular to the other. If three corners are square, the fourth
must be square, etc.

Like I said, I know the geometry, but sometimes it seems like the laws
of the universe are temporarily suspended just to mess with me. The
source of the problem with the white board was more mundane, but there
have been times I've tried to square up a simple box and given up in
frustration.


Richard, did the time of day (i.e. late evening, just about or slightly
after bedtime) have anything to do with the laws of the known universe going
slightly askew??

Real woodworkers wouldn't consume anything stronger than buttermilk. . . . .
.. .




Flash

Richard Evans wrote:
FrozenNorth wrote:


Richard Evans wrote:

I'd have been better off just marking six inches down from the top and
mounting the white board accordingly. I'm leaving it crooked as a
reminder about making assumptions when working on projects.

Last fall I built a large builtin storage cabinet, in our sunroom, previous
owner had enclosed a back deck, which sloped to let the rain run off. I
hired out getting new windows and siding put on for the exterior, but
wanted to do the interior myself. Anyway...

As the floor sloped, I just used a level for the top pieces, adjusted clamps
for the supporting pieces for the pre-squared top rectangle until it showed
level, then made my marks and cuts. It turned out perfect


Yabbut you knew it sloped and planned accordingly. I was assuming I
was working on the level and couldnt figure out why the end result was
crooked.

That is where your assumptions were wrong. A floor is never flat
or level. Walls are never plumb and nothing is square. If that
is your initial assumption, then you would have been working in
the right direction to begin with.

Case in point; I was installing cabinets at one of my jobs and
while checking to see how square and plumb a corner was, I
discovered that it was square! A first at this site. I went and
got the homeowner, showed him the square corner and asked him if
he wanted to leave it that way or should I make it like all the
rest? We all had a good laugh and then went back to work.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

On Aug 1, 11:06*am, Robert Allison wrote:
Richard Evans wrote:
FrozenNorth wrote:

Richard Evans wrote:

I'd have been better off just marking six inches down from the top and
mounting the white board accordingly. I'm leaving it crooked as a
reminder about making assumptions when working on projects.

Last fall I built a large builtin storage cabinet, in our sunroom, previous
owner had enclosed a back deck, which sloped to let the rain run off. *I
hired out getting new windows and siding put on for the exterior, but
wanted to do the interior myself. *Anyway...

As the floor sloped, I just used a level for the top pieces, adjusted clamps
for the supporting pieces for the pre-squared top rectangle until it showed
level, then made my marks and cuts. *It turned out perfect

Yabbut you knew it sloped and planned accordingly. I was assuming I
was working on the level and couldnt figure out why the end result was
crooked.

That is where your assumptions were wrong. *A floor is never flat
or level. *Walls are never plumb and nothing is square. *If that
is your initial assumption, then you would have been working in
the right direction to begin with.

Case in point; *I was installing cabinets at one of my jobs and
while checking to see how square and plumb a corner was, I
discovered that it was square! *A first at this site. *I went and
got the homeowner, showed him the square corner and asked him if
he wanted to leave it that way or should I make it like all the
rest? *We all had a good laugh and then went back to work.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

LOL.. that's funny. But, I did a check for squareness at countertop
level once.. and it was right on. At baseboard level it was out 3
degrees- and at ceiling height, it was 5 degrees+. They HAD to have
TRIED to do that.

Robert Allison wrote:

That is where your assumptions were wrong. A floor is never flat or
level. Walls are never plumb and nothing is square. If that is your
initial assumption, then you would have been working in the right
direction to begin with.

It's right up there with landing an airplane in perfect conditions.

Every landing is unique, just like every installation and scribe...

I remember years ago installing shelves along the full length of a wall in
my first house. This was an old brick rowhouse built shortly after
the civil war, and both the floors and ceilings sagged quite a bit
though they were still sound. I used a level to install the shelves and
theylooked like crap when finished. I took off all the brackets and
reinstalled by eye, splitting the difference between the "natural"
curvature of the floor and ceiling, and they looked just right!

So, sometimes, even "square, level, and plumb" is not the right answer.

--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org

Larry W wrote:
I remember years ago installing shelves along the full length of a wall in
my first house. This was an old brick rowhouse built shortly after
the civil war, and both the floors and ceilings sagged quite a bit
though they were still sound. I used a level to install the shelves and
theylooked like crap when finished. I took off all the brackets and
reinstalled by eye, splitting the difference between the "natural"
curvature of the floor and ceiling, and they looked just right!

So, sometimes, even "square, level, and plumb" is not the right answer.


My personal favorite is doors. Take a door at the end of a
hallway where the trim is almost touching the adjacent wall. If
it is an inch away from the wall at the top and almost touching
at the bottom, I just hate it. I have done all sorts of tricks
to minimize the difference without setting the door out of level
(much).

You have to work with what you got.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

B A R R Y wrote:

Robert Allison wrote:


That is where your assumptions were wrong. A floor is never flat or
level. Walls are never plumb and nothing is square. If that is your
initial assumption, then you would have been working in the right
direction to begin with.


It's right up there with landing an airplane in perfect conditions.

Every landing is unique, just like every installation and scribe...

That is what I try to explain to people when they ask me if it is
boring work. It is never boring. Frustrating sometimes, but
never boring.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

Robert Allison wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:

Robert Allison wrote:


That is where your assumptions were wrong. A floor is never flat or
level. Walls are never plumb and nothing is square. If that is your
initial assumption, then you would have been working in the right
direction to begin with.


It's right up there with landing an airplane in perfect conditions.

Every landing is unique, just like every installation and scribe...

That is what I try to explain to people when they ask me if it is boring
work. It is never boring. Frustrating sometimes, but never boring.



_You_ understand! G