I'm sure there's others on the wreck well-versed in mission-style furniture,
I just happen to remember Andy making many related posts.

While finishing last-minute Christmas shopping, strolling though Restoration
Hardware (roasting in a winter jacket.. arghhh), admiring their
mission-style furniture, one thing that surprised me: The tops on things
like dressers, coffee tables, side tables, etc. are glued up from very
narrow pieces. I didn't have a tape on me, but I'd say about 1.5 inches
wide. Is this true to authentic "Craftsman" style furniture by the likes of
Stickley? (Can't remember from pics I've seen).

The timeliness of this query is this: I'm just now lining up boards for a
coffee table top, and was planning on making the 28 inch wide top from 8
boards appx 3.5 in each. If I used narrower boards, it would make it easier
to choose nice-looking grain from the red oak I have available, although
more work in glue-up. I would like to keep it true to the traditional style
to the extent that I'm capable (won't be any ammonia fuming going on in my
house in the near future).

But, aside from that, I'm just curious how good a reproduction they have at
that store.

Thanks!
--


************************************************** **************************
***
"Dreaming permits each and every one of us to be quietly and safely
insane every night of our lives." -- William Dement
************************************************** **************************
***

"Keith Carlson" wrote in message

The timeliness of this query is this: I'm just now lining up boards for a
coffee table top, and was planning on making the 28 inch wide top from 8
boards appx 3.5 in each. If I used narrower boards, it would make it
easier
to choose nice-looking grain from the red oak I have available, although
more work in glue-up. I would like to keep it true to the traditional
style
to the extent that I'm capable (won't be any ammonia fuming going on in my
house in the near future).

But, aside from that, I'm just curious how good a reproduction they have
at
that store.

Most of the Mission/A&C/Craftsman style table tops I've seen from that
period, both in person and in books, were laminated from various width's,
even within the same top, with no particular rules that can be discerned.

Economy was one of the principles behind the movement, so whatever it takes
to get a combination of economy and aesthetics is pretty much fair game as
far as method. With regard to material, quarter sawn white oak is the wood
most characteristic of the style, at least in the US.

I personally prefer to mix the grain up a bit on table tops on the mission
pieces I make ... judging from pictures of earlier Gustav Stickley tables, I
am apparently not alone.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/23/03

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 03:35:09 GMT, "Keith Carlson"
wrote:

I'm sure there's others on the wreck well-versed in mission-style furniture,
I just happen to remember Andy making many related posts.

Do you know what time it is over here ? When's a kibozo (look it up)
supposed to get any sleep ?

The tops on things
like dressers, coffee tables, side tables, etc. are glued up from very
narrow pieces. I didn't have a tape on me, but I'd say about 1.5 inches
wide. Is this true to authentic "Craftsman" style furniture by the likes of
Stickley? (Can't remember from pics I've seen).

I've not seen that before.

Sounds like a cheap hack to emulate quartersawn stock from skinny
trees and cheap flatsawn timber. What's the figure like ? It doesn't
matter if it's narrow stock (from a stability point of view) or if
it's quartersawn (if it's narrow, it'll be stable enough any way you
cut it) but it sounds like the visuals are going to suffer badly,
especially any ray flake.

I know nothing of red oak, so don't know how that would end up
looking, however you sawed it.

--
Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.

In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:

Sounds like a cheap hack to emulate quartersawn stock from skinny
trees and cheap flatsawn timber. What's the figure like ? It doesn't
matter if it's narrow stock (from a stability point of view) or if
it's quartersawn (if it's narrow, it'll be stable enough any way you
cut it) but it sounds like the visuals are going to suffer badly,
especially any ray flake.

I know nothing of red oak, so don't know how that would end up
looking, however you sawed it.

Hey Andy. I agree - I believe mass produced furniture makers would have
an easier time just gluing up a bunch of smaller pieces to make "boards"
than pay for wider pieces. I believe we're looking at bean-counter
mentality.

The original American A&C pieces I've seen in person from Gus Stickley
as well as his brothers - L&JG - Limbert and Roycrofters all appear to
use wide pieces for tops and case sides. (It's been observed that oak
may have been the "chosen wood" for American A&C due to other hardwood
being overharvested prior to 1875-ish.)

There's a new book by Taunton Press on Arts & Crafts furniture, just
published this year. I rec'd a copy for Christmas and it's chock full of
pics of original pieces. I don't recall seeing any with what I would
consider unusually narrow glue-ups (less than 8" or so).

As to Red Oak, it's a more open grain than White Oak and, interestingly
enough, can display much more prominent and dramatic ray fleck. Ammonia
fuming can yield a green tint, so that has to be taken into account. For
my Arts & Crafts pieces, I prefer White Oak over Red; Mahogony over Red;
Black Walnut over Red; Cherry over Red - but other than that, I'd choose
Red in a heartbeat.

--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com
http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html

"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message

There's a new book by Taunton Press on Arts & Crafts furniture, just
published this year. I rec'd a copy for Christmas and it's chock full of
pics of original pieces. I don't recall seeing any with what I would
consider unusually narrow glue-ups (less than 8" or so).

... and many of my books show numerous examples of original tables with
many laminations in rather narrow tops.

Just have one on hand in my office, but on page 49 of Bavaro and Mossman's
book on Gustav are two tables with of 5 laminations in 22", and 5
laminations in 28". On page 52 is a Serving Table with 5 laminations in 22",
one board appearing to be less than 2". Page 54 shows a Library Table with 6
laminations in 30"

Just a quick perusal of last year's Stickley Mission catalog shows table
tops with many more laminations. A Harvey Ellis table with 6 laminations in
a 24" wide top, a desk with 8 laminations in 30", are clearly visible.

While times have changed, and with it, the availability of wide lumber,
Stickley also knew the dangers of too wide a wood on table tops. The only
_rule_ as to width of laminations appears to be a requirement that they be
random in width ...and attempts were obviously made to match the grain in a
pleasing manner.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/23/03

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 03:35:09 GMT, "Keith Carlson"
wrote:

Do you know what time it is over here ? When's a kibozo (look it up)
supposed to get any sleep ?
Lol. Ya got a digital pager set to signal you when a post is made with your
name in it?

I know nothing of red oak, so don't know how that would end up
looking, however you sawed it.
Would like to use white oak, QS even, but the red oak is what I have
available, and it looks pretty good after being stained. To me, anyway.

Keith Carlson notes:

I know nothing of red oak, so don't know how that would end up
looking, however you sawed it.
Would like to use white oak, QS even, but the red oak is what I have
available, and it looks pretty good after being stained. To me, anyway.

Well, that's what counts. And red oak is preferred by many over white oak for
appearance. Rays are sometimes even bolder when quartersawn. I've got some
parts of my staircase in this house in red oak with rays you wouldn't believe.

It does not fume well, by all reports. I'm not up for trying fuming until we're
back in a permanent location, so can't comment. I'll try both and some others
when that happens.

Charlie Self

"Man is a reasoning rather than a reasonable animal."
Alexander Hamilton

http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/m.../business.html

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:04:34 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

... and many of my books show numerous examples of original tables with
many laminations in rather narrow tops.

My last Stickley piece was a 603 round table
http://codesmiths.com/shed/furniture.../table_603.jpg
The top on that is 3 pieces in 20" diameter

1.5" is _skinny_ though. That's not stability, it's penny-pinching.
Sounds like buying in 8/4 stock and turning it sideways.


--
Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:04:34 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

... and many of my books show numerous examples of original tables with
many laminations in rather narrow tops.

My last Stickley piece was a 603 round table
http://codesmiths.com/shed/furniture.../table_603.jpg
The top on that is 3 pieces in 20" diameter

1.5" is _skinny_ though. That's not stability, it's penny-pinching.

Yep, that is too skinny, especially if they're all near the same width. I've
only personally handled one original piece with a lamination that narrow ...
it was on the front edge of an end table and likely that size because the
top was cut to dimension after being glued up. While the top grain matched
quite well, you could, as usual, see it clearly in the end grain ... but
that kind of stuff never bothered me in the least.

Your 603 round table is gorgeous.

I just bought a interesting chair yesterday at a garage sale for $10 ... one
chair only. The piece is intriguing to me. It appears to resemble Mission/A
& C style, almost a Frank Lloyd Wright look to it, Oak, obviously hand made
from the tool marks on it, heavy as hell, and has been refinished with some
type of brown faux crap. Whoever built it knew what he was doing as the
workmanship is top drawer stuff.

www.e-woodshop.net/images/MysteryChair1.jpg
www.e-woodshop.net/images/MysteryChair2.jpg
www.e-woodshop.net/images/MysteryChair3.jpg

I like the look of it and bought it to measure it up and reproduce one of
these days for a dining room table I have in mind ... let me know if you
see anything you recognize in it.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/23/03

In article ,
"Swingman" wrote:

... and many of my books show numerous examples of original tables with
many laminations in rather narrow tops.

Just have one on hand in my office, but on page 49 of Bavaro and Mossman's
book on Gustav are two tables with of 5 laminations in 22", and 5
laminations in 28". On page 52 is a Serving Table with 5 laminations in 22",
one board appearing to be less than 2". Page 54 shows a Library Table with 6
laminations in 30"

Just a quick perusal of last year's Stickley Mission catalog shows table
tops with many more laminations. A Harvey Ellis table with 6 laminations in
a 24" wide top, a desk with 8 laminations in 30", are clearly visible.

Stopped me in my tracks... I sit corrected.

I will offer my opinion, that the pieces I've seen and what I design for
myself, look better with a limited glueups rather than many. i.e. 3, 8"
boards to make 24" rather than 6, 4"'ers.

--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com
http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html

"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message

Just a quick perusal of last year's Stickley Mission catalog shows table
tops with many more laminations. A Harvey Ellis table with 6 laminations
in
a 24" wide top, a desk with 8 laminations in 30", are clearly visible.

Stopped me in my tracks... I sit corrected.

I will offer my opinion, that the pieces I've seen and what I design for
myself, look better with a limited glueups rather than many. i.e. 3, 8"
boards to make 24" rather than 6, 4"'ers.

And I agree with you they are overall more pleasing. It wasn't my intention
to "stop you in your tracks", sorry if it came off that way. Just trying to
point out to the OP that some narrow boards in original table top
laminations from that period are not necessarily a bad thing, but that he
should definitely be shooting for random widths.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/23/03

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 03:35:09 GMT, "Keith Carlson"
brought forth from the murky depths:

I'm sure there's others on the wreck well-versed in mission-style furniture,
I just happen to remember Andy making many related posts.

I'm an afficionado but haven't yet built any. Next year, though!


The timeliness of this query is this: I'm just now lining up boards for a
coffee table top, and was planning on making the 28 inch wide top from 8
boards appx 3.5 in each. If I used narrower boards, it would make it easier
to choose nice-looking grain from the red oak I have available, although

Traditional is white oak, and they typically used wider boards back
then because they were available. I'll guess that the width is from
8/4 thickness lumber which was available to them, cut for the qsawn
grain.


more work in glue-up. I would like to keep it true to the traditional style
to the extent that I'm capable (won't be any ammonia fuming going on in my
house in the near future).

Let's hope not. That belongs in the driveway or garage.


But, aside from that, I'm just curious how good a reproduction they have at
that store.

I haven't seen anything that narrow in any picture from the
twenty or so books I've read on A&C furniture.

The 1909-1912 copy of Popular Mechanics' "Mission Furnitu
How To Make It" shows a parts list for the library table top
as "1 top, 1-1/8 by 30 by 42 in., S4S". For the tabouret top,
"from the planing mill, secure one piece 7/8 in. thick and 17
in. square", so really wide qsawn oak was readily available
back then. (Gawd, if only that were still true!)


================================================== ========
I drank WHAT? + http://www.diversify.com
--Socrates + Web Application Programming

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 21:30:19 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC
brought forth from the murky depths:

The original American A&C pieces I've seen in person from Gus Stickley
as well as his brothers - L&JG - Limbert and Roycrofters all appear to
use wide pieces for tops and case sides. (It's been observed that oak
may have been the "chosen wood" for American A&C due to other hardwood
being overharvested prior to 1875-ish.)

And they had mills on every corner back then, so it was much more
available qsawn at less of a premium than it now is (when available).


There's a new book by Taunton Press on Arts & Crafts furniture, just
published this year. I rec'd a copy for Christmas and it's chock full of
pics of original pieces. I don't recall seeing any with what I would
consider unusually narrow glue-ups (less than 8" or so).

Ooh, ooh, is that Rodel's book? I have an Amazon gift certificate
burning a hole in my virtual pocket. Is it really good?

I got an email from Robert Lang about his new book being available
now, too. "Shop Drawings for Craftsman Interiors; Cabinets, Moldings
& Built-ins of Every Room in the Home" (Amazon $17.47)

Hmmm, decisions, decisions...
(I'd get both but Griz is delivering a Shop Fox mortiser next week
so I can stop dragging my heels.)

P.S: Conan, start holding your breath.


================================================== ========
I drank WHAT? + http://www.diversify.com
--Socrates + Web Application Programming

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:11:30 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

Your 603 round table is gorgeous.

Thanks. There's a nice story behind it too.

It's not all my own work -- The top was glued up and roughed out by a
friend of mine's grandfather, some decades ago and shortly before he
died. Then it languished with a few other half-projects in the back of
the family's garden shed. Early this year I was visiting while they
were tidying up and I came home with this pile of odd bits of timber.

A glued-up tabletop is too wide to sit tidily in the woodrack and it
kept annoying me. It's lovely figured piece of timber and I couldn't
bring myself to re-work it into anything else, so obviously I had to
finish it into something. I'm quite fond of old Gustav and the simple
603 tables had no apron to make so I could knock one up quickly out of
not much other timber. Finish is ammonia fuming and shellac over oil.

I still haven't found a home for it. I might see if the original
owners would like it back as a finished piece.
--
Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

Ooh, ooh, is that Rodel's book? I have an Amazon gift certificate
burning a hole in my virtual pocket. Is it really good?

Yep, that's the one. Bought it a few weeks before Christmas, put a
PostIt on it saying, "Gift for Dad", along with a stack of other
bookstore items similarly marked for relatives awaiting my wife and
daughter's wrapping party.

I've read a couple chapters into it so far and have been pleased with
it. I really wanted it for the picture of an original piece I want to
make (Limbert gothic arch side table) - Taunton's reproduction quality
is very good - plus the history and samples of the Movement from the
beginning of Ruskin & Morris on to Germany, Scotland, and the US. It's
really quite striking - the progression and the cultural differences of
the various countries and how that affected the look of their pieces.
Also the instances of other styles, like Art Nouveau or Bauhaus, showing
up in A&C pieces a decade or more before that style really became
defined.

Get it Larry, you won't be disappointed if A&C is your bent.

--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com
http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html

In article ,
"Swingman" wrote:

It wasn't my intention
to "stop you in your tracks", sorry if it came off that way.

Not at all - I guess I was a bit too terse in my comment... shoulda put
a or somthin in there.

--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com
http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html

SWMBO says I gotta ask....in the first pic, why are the numbers on
that door at the bottom??
TIA


My last Stickley piece was a 603 round table
http://codesmiths.com/shed/furniture.../table_603.jpg
The top on that is 3 pieces in 20" diameter

1.5" is _skinny_ though. That's not stability, it's penny-pinching.

Yep, that is too skinny, especially if they're all near the same width. I've
only personally handled one original piece with a lamination that narrow ...
it was on the front edge of an end table and likely that size because the
top was cut to dimension after being glued up. While the top grain matched
quite well, you could, as usual, see it clearly in the end grain ... but
that kind of stuff never bothered me in the least.

Your 603 round table is gorgeous.

I just bought a interesting chair yesterday at a garage sale for $10 ... one
chair only. The piece is intriguing to me. It appears to resemble Mission/A
& C style, almost a Frank Lloyd Wright look to it, Oak, obviously hand made
from the tool marks on it, heavy as hell, and has been refinished with some
type of brown faux crap. Whoever built it knew what he was doing as the
workmanship is top drawer stuff.

www.e-woodshop.net/images/MysteryChair1.jpg
www.e-woodshop.net/images/MysteryChair2.jpg
www.e-woodshop.net/images/MysteryChair3.jpg

I like the look of it and bought it to measure it up and reproduce one of
these days for a dining room table I have in mind ... let me know if you
see anything you recognize in it.

It is the common practice around here for houses with 8-36 doors to put the
numbers at the bottom ... that would be 98% of the houses in this city
within a city. Size of the numbers is local code. Also, in this case, the
finished floor is almost four feet above grade, so when you're on the
street, the numbers are at eye level.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/23/03


"Bri" wrote in message
SWMBO says I gotta ask....in the first pic, why are the numbers on
that door at the bottom??
TIA

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:11:11 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC
brought forth from the murky depths:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

Ooh, ooh, is that Rodel's book? I have an Amazon gift certificate
burning a hole in my virtual pocket. Is it really good?

Yep, that's the one. Bought it a few weeks before Christmas, put a
PostIt on it saying, "Gift for Dad", along with a stack of other
bookstore items similarly marked for relatives awaiting my wife and
daughter's wrapping party.

It's smart to alert your gift givers to your wants/needs/tastes
so you're -always- pleased with gifts.


I've read a couple chapters into it so far and have been pleased with
it. I really wanted it for the picture of an original piece I want to
make (Limbert gothic arch side table) - Taunton's reproduction quality
is very good - plus the history and samples of the Movement from the

I liked the thought of 500+ -more- pics to view, too.


Also the instances of other styles, like Art Nouveau or Bauhaus, showing
up in A&C pieces a decade or more before that style really became
defined.

Cool.


Get it Larry, you won't be disappointed if A&C is your bent.

Done! Thanks. If you want something lighter, pick up a copy of
the book my sister gave to me this Christmas. I'm going to get all
of Christopher Moore's books from the library after reading "The
Lust Lizard of Melancholy Cove". I think I've lost a quart of tears
from laughing so hard while reading the first half of the book. One
of his other titles is "Practical Demonkeeping".

================================================== ========
I drank WHAT? + http://www.diversify.com
--Socrates + Web Application Programming

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

If you want something lighter, pick up a copy of
the book my sister gave to me this Christmas. I'm going to get all
of Christopher Moore's books from the library after reading "The
Lust Lizard of Melancholy Cove". I think I've lost a quart of tears
from laughing so hard while reading the first half of the book. One
of his other titles is "Practical Demonkeeping".

Will do. Last book I recall laughing out loud with was "A Fools
Progress" by Edward Abbey - the character (perhaps Abbey hisself) shoots
his wheezing fridge before departing on a roadtrip to his boyhood home
in WV.

--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com
http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html

QS WO moves about half as much as plain sawn stock, so Michael's Furniture
(in-house Resto domestic manufacturer) is using plain-sawn 8/4 flipped 90
degrees for both lower cost and reducing warranty claims due to wood
movement.

Even if I could find 17" wide QS white oak, I doubt more than a 6-7 inch
section would be true QS stock, so narrower pieces - five to eight inches
wide - are pretty much the limit these days. My library table is about the
same size as the Resto desk, and uses 5 sticks for the 28 x 60 top. Over
the last year, it's been pretty stable, losing just under a 1/4" in width
between seasonal extremes.

FYI - Resto is a great place to get the SWMBO interested in A&C stuff.
Although the designs are derivative, the scale is about right and seeing
these pieces in the flesh really helps. My cost of about $500 for the
library table versus $1800 for Resto's was also a selling point (although
the hand-hammered pulls I'd like to put on would jack things up by another
$240).

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

"The
Lust Lizard of Melancholy Cove". I think I've lost a quart of tears
from laughing so hard while reading the first half of the book. One
of his other titles is "Practical Demonkeeping".

Just finished Lust Lizard - I'm movin' to Pine Cove to live amongst
these folks. I can picture these same goings on - with the people, not
the lizard - in the tiny coastal towns of Oregon.

So, which character is Larry Jaques most like? Hmmm. Burton? That why
you moved to the backwoods-garden-growing-Grass Pants? Nah, prolly not.
I don't think your a scientist, head shrinker or other UCx'er. I'm
thinkin' maybe that ol' Catfish? Seen it all, talks smooth with the
ladies and sings the blues? I think I identified most with Skinner -
where's that Food Guy when ya need 'im?

--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
http://www.flybynightcoppercompany.com
http://www.easystreet.com/~onlnlowe/index.html

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 03:39:10 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC
brought forth from the murky depths:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

"The
Lust Lizard of Melancholy Cove". I think I've lost a quart of tears
from laughing so hard while reading the first half of the book. One
of his other titles is "Practical Demonkeeping".

Just finished Lust Lizard - I'm movin' to Pine Cove to live amongst
these folks. I can picture these same goings on - with the people, not
the lizard - in the tiny coastal towns of Oregon.

I'm looking for it, too. I want copies of all of Molly's movies.


So, which character is Larry Jaques most like? Hmmm. Burton? That why
you moved to the backwoods-garden-growing-Grass Pants? Nah, prolly not.

No, I ingest only organic and legal herbs nowadays, thanks.
I'd really rather be the lizard and have girls with weedeaters
all around me, riding my looooooong tongue.


I don't think your a scientist, head shrinker or other UCx'er. I'm
thinkin' maybe that ol' Catfish? Seen it all, talks smooth with the
ladies and sings the blues?

Well, I gots de blues but I'm the wrong color for a bluesman (though
that Jeff Healy dude proves it can be done, and done right.)


I think I identified most with Skinner -
where's that Food Guy when ya need 'im?

And I a dogless Theo. Y'know, single, girlfriendless, living
alone in a dogforsaken area, head in a computer most of the time,
surrounded by electronics and strange things to do. But, well, I
just don't do rats, thanks. But I do exude mediocrity.

--
Vidi, Vici, Veni
---
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development