Ok, so I decided to make my sweetie a nice oak bed (I snore something
awful). Almost done; the last little bit was to cut mortises and mount
the bed rail hardware (https://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=
3269) in the posts and ends of the side rails. The hardware is drilled
and countersunk for #8 screws. I drill pilot holes the length of the
screw, using a Stanley adjustable pilot-clearance-countersink bit, after
starting the holes using a self-centering bit through the hardware
itself. In the first attempt, to mount the bed rail hooks to the side
rail, two of three screws sheared at the top of the threads, leaving the
potential for the bed to be held together by one presumeably already
stressed screw. I *really* don't want to go back to the lumberyard and
get a 7 foot length of 5/4 x 8 oak to make another rail.

As I see it, I have (at least) two problems: First, if I want to
salvage the almost-completed side rail, I need to somehow extract about
an inch of wood screw that is buried a good 3/8 of an inch inside a
chunk of oak, preferably without doing so much damage that I can't re-
use the hole. I suppose I could just lengthen the mortise and
reposition the hardware, but I'm not real keen on that (fortunately, I
made the side rails an inch wider than the plans called for, so I have
some room to play with on the end of the rail. Any suggestions?

The second problem is what is stopping me right now: Any advice on how
do drive screws in oak without shearing them? I figured a full length
pilot hole in end grain, with the screw threads heavily waxed, would not
present so much friction that a #8 screw would shear, but apparently it
does. So far, I've sheared about 8 screws this afternoon, two in ind
grain and the rest in side grain, using both Crown Bolt screws from HD
and Hillcrest screws from my local lumberyard, all in pilot holes
drilled the length of the screw.

I appeal to the assembled wisdom of the group to help an admitted idiot
out of an embarassing jam (though not as embarassing as having the bed
fall apart would be). Thanks

Jim

"Jim Willemin" wrote in message
7.131...
Ok, so I decided to make my sweetie a nice oak bed (I snore something
awful). Almost done; the last little bit was to cut mortises and mount
the bed rail hardware (https://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=
3269) in the posts and ends of the side rails. The hardware is drilled
and countersunk for #8 screws. I drill pilot holes the length of the
screw, using a Stanley adjustable pilot-clearance-countersink bit, after
starting the holes using a self-centering bit through the hardware
itself. In the first attempt, to mount the bed rail hooks to the side
rail, two of three screws sheared at the top of the threads, leaving the
potential for the bed to be held together by one presumeably already
stressed screw. I *really* don't want to go back to the lumberyard and
get a 7 foot length of 5/4 x 8 oak to make another rail.

As I see it, I have (at least) two problems: First, if I want to
salvage the almost-completed side rail, I need to somehow extract about
an inch of wood screw that is buried a good 3/8 of an inch inside a
chunk of oak, preferably without doing so much damage that I can't re-
use the hole. I suppose I could just lengthen the mortise and
reposition the hardware, but I'm not real keen on that (fortunately, I
made the side rails an inch wider than the plans called for, so I have
some room to play with on the end of the rail. Any suggestions?

There is a special bit for a drill that appears to be a hollow hole saw.
You drill/saw the screw and the surrounding wood out, glue in a matching
dowel and start over.





The second problem is what is stopping me right now: Any advice on how
do drive screws in oak without shearing them? I figured a full length
pilot hole in end grain, with the screw threads heavily waxed, would not
present so much friction that a #8 screw would shear, but apparently it
does. So far, I've sheared about 8 screws this afternoon, two in ind
grain and the rest in side grain, using both Crown Bolt screws from HD
and Hillcrest screws from my local lumberyard, all in pilot holes
drilled the length of the screw.

Are you using "quality" square drive screws? I would advise using at least
#10 screws. Pilot holes should be large enough to accompany the unthreaded
portion of the screw, preferabley you use a tapered pilot hole bit. WAX the
screw before insertion.

This is not a solution. Are these China made screws? Bet 2 to 1 they are.
Hmmmmmm, think I started a post a few days back about this very problem.
This one probably proves my point. Use quality screws, not junk from China!

Wish you luck on this one. If screw broke at shank and below wood not sure
there is a solution. If you can move the bracket over an 1/16" drill new
one. Leon's solution may work. This is a tough one.

--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586

Jim Willemin wrote:
Ok, so I decided to make my sweetie a nice oak bed (I snore
something
awful). Almost done; the last little bit was to cut mortises and
mount the bed rail hardware
(https://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid= 3269) in the posts
and ends of the side rails. The hardware is drilled and countersunk
for #8 screws. I drill pilot holes the length of the screw, using a
Stanley adjustable pilot-clearance-countersink bit, after starting
the holes using a self-centering bit through the hardware itself.
In
the first attempt, to mount the bed rail hooks to the side rail, two
of three screws sheared at the top of the threads, leaving the
potential for the bed to be held together by one presumeably already
stressed screw. I *really* don't want to go back to the lumberyard
and get a 7 foot length of 5/4 x 8 oak to make another rail.

As I see it, I have (at least) two problems: First, if I want to
salvage the almost-completed side rail, I need to somehow extract
about an inch of wood screw that is buried a good 3/8 of an inch
inside a chunk of oak, preferably without doing so much damage that
I
can't re- use the hole. I suppose I could just lengthen the mortise
and reposition the hardware, but I'm not real keen on that
(fortunately, I made the side rails an inch wider than the plans
called for, so I have some room to play with on the end of the rail.
Any suggestions?

The second problem is what is stopping me right now: Any advice on
how do drive screws in oak without shearing them? I figured a full
length pilot hole in end grain, with the screw threads heavily
waxed,
would not present so much friction that a #8 screw would shear, but
apparently it does. So far, I've sheared about 8 screws this
afternoon, two in ind grain and the rest in side grain, using both
Crown Bolt screws from HD and Hillcrest screws from my local
lumberyard, all in pilot holes drilled the length of the screw.

I appeal to the assembled wisdom of the group to help an admitted
idiot out of an embarassing jam (though not as embarassing as having
the bed fall apart would be). Thanks

Well, the first thing that comes to mind with the shearing is that you
might want to try going up a 64th on the pilot hole diameter. If the
pilot set you're using is intended for construction lumber (very
likely if it's a Stanley) then it's probably a bit undersized for oak.

Try SPAX screws--between the serrated thread and the Teflon coating
they drive real easy--you can get them from
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/i...S&Category=409
or from http://www.mcfeelys.com/spax.

As far as getting the busted screws out,
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=983 will do it but you
end up with an oversized hole that you'll have to fill with a dowel or
plug or (probably the best solution) a threaded insert such as
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=1048.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Jim Willemin" wrote:

As I see it, I have (at least) two problems: First, if I want to
salvage the almost-completed side rail, I need to somehow extract
about
an inch of wood screw that is buried a good 3/8 of an inch inside a
chunk of oak, preferably without doing so much damage that I can't
re-
use the hole.

Piece of cake.

Form a small hole saw from a steel tube, the drill out the material
around the screw.

This is not a time to be dainty.

Think of yourself as the mad dentist in pursuit of tooth decay.

When you have the hole cleaned out, mix up some epoxy putty
(epoxy/micro-balloons), pour it in the holes until just proud.

Allow 2-3 days to cure, then sand smooth and drill pilot holes for
some S/S, coarse thread, sheet metal, self tapping screws that you get
at a good hardware store.

Once assembled, a flying red horse won't see it from 1,000 ft.

Lew

I am guessing that the screws are probably lesser quality metal, so I
would drill them out and plug the hole with an oak dowel and redrill
slightly larger holes for a new higher quality stainless steel screw.

I had to repair some holes in the back of a guitar neck once when they
did not align with the backing plate. I drilled them out on the drill
press with a forstner bit and then filled the hole with a dowel and
redrilled the new holes. Worked like a champ.



Jim Willemin wrote:
Ok, so I decided to make my sweetie a nice oak bed (I snore something
awful). Almost done; the last little bit was to cut mortises and mount
the bed rail hardware (https://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=
3269) in the posts and ends of the side rails. The hardware is drilled
and countersunk for #8 screws. I drill pilot holes the length of the
screw, using a Stanley adjustable pilot-clearance-countersink bit, after
starting the holes using a self-centering bit through the hardware
itself. In the first attempt, to mount the bed rail hooks to the side
rail, two of three screws sheared at the top of the threads, leaving the
potential for the bed to be held together by one presumeably already
stressed screw. I *really* don't want to go back to the lumberyard and
get a 7 foot length of 5/4 x 8 oak to make another rail.

As I see it, I have (at least) two problems: First, if I want to
salvage the almost-completed side rail, I need to somehow extract about
an inch of wood screw that is buried a good 3/8 of an inch inside a
chunk of oak, preferably without doing so much damage that I can't re-
use the hole. I suppose I could just lengthen the mortise and
reposition the hardware, but I'm not real keen on that (fortunately, I
made the side rails an inch wider than the plans called for, so I have
some room to play with on the end of the rail. Any suggestions?

The second problem is what is stopping me right now: Any advice on how
do drive screws in oak without shearing them? I figured a full length
pilot hole in end grain, with the screw threads heavily waxed, would not
present so much friction that a #8 screw would shear, but apparently it
does. So far, I've sheared about 8 screws this afternoon, two in ind
grain and the rest in side grain, using both Crown Bolt screws from HD
and Hillcrest screws from my local lumberyard, all in pilot holes
drilled the length of the screw.

I appeal to the assembled wisdom of the group to help an admitted idiot
out of an embarassing jam (though not as embarassing as having the bed
fall apart would be). Thanks

Jim

Garage_Woodworks wrote:
As some have mentioned already: WAX your screws. I use mostly paste wax.
You can also buy screw wax from Rockler that is a very soft wax.


As the poster mentioned in his original query, he already waxed them and it
didn't help.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"Jim Willemin" wrote in message snip
?

There is a special bit for a drill that appears to be a hollow hole saw.
You drill/saw the screw and the surrounding wood out, glue in a matching
dowel and start over.
Sounds good to me. Where do you buy such a bit?


The second problem is what is stopping me right now: Any advice on how
do drive screws in oak without shearing them? I figured a full length
pilot hole in end grain, with the screw threads heavily waxed, would not
present so much friction that a #8 screw would shear, but apparently it
does. So far, I've sheared about 8 screws this afternoon, two in ind
grain and the rest in side grain, using both Crown Bolt screws from HD
and Hillcrest screws from my local lumberyard, all in pilot holes
drilled the length of the screw.

I bought a set of tapered pilot hole drills from Lee Valley and use wood
screws from local hardware stores. This has solved my screw breaking
problem. I also wax the screws before they go in. These bits also counter
sink the hole.
The screws go easily until just before they grab and then moderate pressure
engages the all of the threads at once and applies remarkable clamping
pressure on the joint. Try it, works. :-)

J. Clarke wrote:

As far as getting the busted screws out,
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=983 will do it but you
end up with an oversized hole that you'll have to fill with a dowel or
plug or (probably the best solution) a threaded insert such as
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=1048.

I was at Lowe's a few days ago getting some stuff and a salesman asked
if I needed any help. Well, I did need some threaded inserts so I asked
if they had any, knowing pretty sure they didn't. Well the salesman
took me to a drawer full of tee nuts. I was impressed they had Tee nuts
but in the drawer below them, they had threaded inserts. I was
impressed Lowe's actually sold this stuff. Anyway, 4 threaded inserts
cost over $5 and they were cheap ass china junk.

Going to the the woodcraft.com place above, you could get 10 of them for
$6. Well, inspired, I went to Granger

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg...eMatches.shtml

and there you can get 100 of them for under $10.

They had a nice selection and really nice interface for getting what you
want. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/guideBrowse.shtml

I have to remember to buy some stock in Granger.

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

"Jack Stein" wrote

and there you can get 100 of them for under $10.

They had a nice selection and really nice interface for getting what you
want. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/guideBrowse.shtml

I have to remember to buy some stock in Granger.

Except that you're still buying Chinese:

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/tic...ymb ol=US:GWW


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/14/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Jack Stein" wrote in message
...
J. Clarke wrote:

As far as getting the busted screws out,
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=983 will do it but you end
up with an oversized hole that you'll have to fill with a dowel or plug
or (probably the best solution) a threaded insert such as
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=1048.

I was at Lowe's a few days ago getting some stuff and a salesman asked if
I needed any help. Well, I did need some threaded inserts so I asked if
they had any, knowing pretty sure they didn't. Well the salesman took me
to a drawer full of tee nuts. I was impressed they had Tee nuts but in
the drawer below them, they had threaded inserts. I was impressed Lowe's
actually sold this stuff. Anyway, 4 threaded inserts cost over $5 and
they were cheap ass china junk.

Going to the the woodcraft.com place above, you could get 10 of them for
$6. Well, inspired, I went to Granger

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg...eMatches.shtml

and there you can get 100 of them for under $10.

They had a nice selection and really nice interface for getting what you
want. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/guideBrowse.shtml

I have to remember to buy some stock in Granger.

I guess it depends which town you are in. If I need something quick, I will
try a big box store. But if I want the job done right, with quality
fasteners, I go to an industrial fastener store. Any kind of planning on
the project, includes a trip to the right kind of store.

Swingman wrote:
"Jack Stein" wrote

and there you can get 100 of them for under $10.

They had a nice selection and really nice interface for getting what you
want. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/guideBrowse.shtml

I have to remember to buy some stock in Granger.

Except that you're still buying Chinese:

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/tic...ymb ol=US:GWW

I don't doubt that for a minute. Thing is, if you buy Chinese junk, you
should at least pay cheap Chinese junk prices. Over $1.25 a piece vs
less than 10 cents a piece is the point.

I liked the article though. To stay on topic in this group I might
comment of interest is the government agrees to a Grainger fixed markup
of 26%, yet Obama ben laden and Obama Momma want to charge Oil companies
a windfall profit tax when they only make about 9% profit.
I guess the government paying an automatic 26% markup to Granger makes
it possible for Grainger to charge 12 times LESS than Lowe's for the
exact same product...

Also of interest is where in the hell can anyone buy screws not made in
China? Heck, even McFeely's were getting their screws from China before
Grainger bought them.

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

Jack Stein wrote:


I don't doubt that for a minute. Thing is, if you buy Chinese junk, you
should at least pay cheap Chinese junk prices. Over $1.25 a piece vs
less than 10 cents a piece is the point.

I liked the article though. To stay on topic in this group I might
comment of interest is the government agrees to a Grainger fixed markup
of 26%, yet Obama ben laden and Obama Momma want to charge Oil companies
a windfall profit tax when they only make about 9% profit.
I guess the government paying an automatic 26% markup to Granger makes
it possible for Grainger to charge 12 times LESS than Lowe's for the
exact same product...

amazing dichotomy, isn't it? Just goes to show you the hypocrisy.


Also of interest is where in the hell can anyone buy screws not made in
China? Heck, even McFeely's were getting their screws from China before
Grainger bought them.


I don't think it is possible. Wondering how will we defend ourselves if God
forbid we ever have another WWll? We have no manufacturing base any longer.

--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586

Lee Michaels wrote:
"Jack Stein" wrote in message

Going to the the woodcraft.com place above, you could get 10 of them for
$6. Well, inspired, I went to Grainger

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg...eMatches.shtml

and there you can get 100 of them for under $10.

I guess it depends which town you are in. If I need something quick, I will
try a big box store.

Yes, that's what I did. I hadn't even thought about buying threaded
inserts at a big box store. I didn't think there was a chance they even
sold the things, or knew what they were. I was shocked they had the
things.

But if I want the job done right, with quality
fasteners, I go to an industrial fastener store. Any kind of planning on
the project, includes a trip to the right kind of store.

Sure, thats how you get burnt by paying 12 times more than you should.
I know for a hobbyist, it can be next to impossible to find quality
products at a reasonable price. All the big box and most of the
remaining hardware stores sell junk, pre packaged like 4 to a package,
and charge an arm and a leg. Just finding a box of 100 for an item like
screw inserts is a treat,particularly when they cost almost the same as
FOUR.

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

Jim Willemin wrote:
Ok, so I decided to make my sweetie a nice oak bed (I snore
something
awful). Almost done; the last little bit was to cut mortises and
mount the bed rail hardware
(https://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid= 3269) in the posts
and ends of the side rails. The hardware is drilled and countersunk
for #8 screws. I drill pilot holes the length of the screw, using a
Stanley adjustable pilot-clearance-countersink bit, after starting
the holes using a self-centering bit through the hardware itself.
In
the first attempt, to mount the bed rail hooks to the side rail, two
of three screws sheared at the top of the threads, leaving the
potential for the bed to be held together by one presumeably already
stressed screw. I *really* don't want to go back to the lumberyard
and get a 7 foot length of 5/4 x 8 oak to make another rail.

As I see it, I have (at least) two problems: First, if I want to
salvage the almost-completed side rail, I need to somehow extract
about an inch of wood screw that is buried a good 3/8 of an inch
inside a chunk of oak, preferably without doing so much damage that
I
can't re- use the hole. I suppose I could just lengthen the mortise
and reposition the hardware, but I'm not real keen on that
(fortunately, I made the side rails an inch wider than the plans
called for, so I have some room to play with on the end of the rail.
Any suggestions?

The second problem is what is stopping me right now: Any advice on
how do drive screws in oak without shearing them? I figured a full
length pilot hole in end grain, with the screw threads heavily
waxed,
would not present so much friction that a #8 screw would shear, but
apparently it does. So far, I've sheared about 8 screws this
afternoon, two in ind grain and the rest in side grain, using both
Crown Bolt screws from HD and Hillcrest screws from my local
lumberyard, all in pilot holes drilled the length of the screw.

I appeal to the assembled wisdom of the group to help an admitted
idiot out of an embarassing jam (though not as embarassing as having
the bed fall apart would be). Thanks

FWIW, I was in Sears today and noticed that their "micro drill out"
screw extractor kit is supposed to work on screws down to #5. Item
number is 952158 and order page is
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...0P?vName=Tools.

I would be very surprised if it actually worked (there are no reviews
on the Sears site), but it might be worth a try.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

evodawg wrote:

Also of interest is where in the hell can anyone buy screws not made in
China? Heck, even McFeely's were getting their screws from China before
Grainger bought them.

I don't think it is possible. Wondering how will we defend ourselves if God
forbid we ever have another WWll? We have no manufacturing base any longer.

....and we can't buy from China so unless we fight with wooden sticks,
assuming someone knows how to make a stick, we be out of luck...

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

Jack Stein wrote:
evodawg wrote:

Also of interest is where in the hell can anyone buy screws not
made in China? Heck, even McFeely's were getting their screws
from
China before Grainger bought them.

I don't think it is possible. Wondering how will we defend
ourselves
if God forbid we ever have another WWll? We have no manufacturing
base any longer.

...and we can't buy from China so unless we fight with wooden
sticks,
assuming someone knows how to make a stick, we be out of luck...

So exactly which weapons and military vehicles does the US buy from
China?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Myxylplyk wrote:
http://www.amazon.com/Grabit-Broken-.../dp/B000H6NU1I

Sears carries those as well. The manufacturer recommends them for
screws with damaged heads and for _free_ _spinning_ broken screws.
http://www.aldn.com/prograbit/

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Also of interest is where in the hell can anyone buy screws not
made in China? Heck, even McFeely's were getting their screws
from
China before Grainger bought them.

I don't think it is possible. Wondering how will we defend
ourselves
if God forbid we ever have another WWll? We have no manufacturing
base any longer.

...and we can't buy from China so unless we fight with wooden
sticks,
assuming someone knows how to make a stick, we be out of luck...

So exactly which weapons and military vehicles does the US buy from
China?

--
--
--John

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that Jack was making a more
generalized statement as to the manufacturng base(or lack thereof) that
seems to remain here in the US. We might not be buying weapons from the
Chinese, but we sure as hell are buying raw material from just about
everyone! Raw steel production in the US is a very faint shadow of what it
was after WWII...depending on the study you read, it's anywhere from 25%
down to as little as 2% of WWII capacity.

Mike

"The Davenport's" wrote:

Raw steel production in the US is a very faint shadow of what it was
after WWII...depending on the study you read, it's anywhere from 25%
down to as little as 2% of WWII capacity.

With good reason, the day of a fully integrated steel mill are
history.

You can put beams rolled in Brazil on the dock in SoCal, for less
money than the cost of a heat.

Demand is down from the auto industry, in large part, due to the
reduced amount of steel used to built today's automobile.

An electric melt shop, using a large percentage of scrap, can turn
around in a fraction of the time that an integrated mill can respond.

The steel industry ate it's own seed corn, so to speak.

There was no reinvestment in capital improvements by the steel
industry in the last 50 years.

I can think of at least a dozen integrated steel mills that I've been
into, in the US, that simply don't exist any more.

Entire steel companies that don't exist (Bethlehem, etc).

The indsustry has itself to blame for it's demise.


Lew

The Davenport's wrote:
Also of interest is where in the hell can anyone buy screws not
made in China? Heck, even McFeely's were getting their screws
from
China before Grainger bought them.

I don't think it is possible. Wondering how will we defend
ourselves
if God forbid we ever have another WWll? We have no manufacturing
base any longer.

...and we can't buy from China so unless we fight with wooden
sticks,
assuming someone knows how to make a stick, we be out of luck...

So exactly which weapons and military vehicles does the US buy from
China?

--
--
--John

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that Jack was making a
more generalized statement as to the manufacturng base(or lack
thereof) that seems to remain here in the US. We might not be buying
weapons from the Chinese, but we sure as hell are buying raw
material
from just about everyone! Raw steel production in the US is a very
faint shadow of what it was after WWII...depending on the study you
read, it's anywhere from 25% down to as little as 2% of WWII
capacity.

Resources run out. Get used to it. Making "raw steel" requires iron
ore. Even if all the steel in the world was produced in the US, if
the ore is cut off then the production stops.

All the whining in the world won't put more ore in the ground.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote:


Resources run out. Get used to it. Making "raw steel" requires iron
ore. Even if all the steel in the world was produced in the US, if
the ore is cut off then the production stops.

All the whining in the world won't put more ore in the ground.


Still plenty of iron ore in the U/P of Michigan.

Still have lots of coal for coke in Ohio and Illinois.

Limestone is readily available.

What doesn't exist is demand for US metal.

Electric melt shops have a real economic advantage over integrated
mills so they have grabbed a major share of US supplied steel.

Lew



Lew

The Davenport's wrote:
Also of interest is where in the hell can anyone buy screws not
made in China? Heck, even McFeely's were getting their screws
from
China before Grainger bought them.

I don't think it is possible. Wondering how will we defend
ourselves
if God forbid we ever have another WWll? We have no manufacturing
base any longer.

...and we can't buy from China so unless we fight with wooden
sticks,
assuming someone knows how to make a stick, we be out of luck...

So exactly which weapons and military vehicles does the US buy from
China?

--
--
--John

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that Jack was making a
more generalized statement as to the manufacturng base(or lack
thereof) that seems to remain here in the US. We might not be buying
weapons from the Chinese, but we sure as hell are buying raw
material
from just about everyone! Raw steel production in the US is a very
faint shadow of what it was after WWII...depending on the study you
read, it's anywhere from 25% down to as little as 2% of WWII
capacity.

Resources run out. Get used to it. Making "raw steel" requires iron
ore. Even if all the steel in the world was produced in the US, if
the ore is cut off then the production stops.

All the whining in the world won't put more ore in the ground.

--
--
--John


First point...I wasn't whining, merely making a statement.

Second point...We, the United States, are NOT running out of resources to
produce iron...Lots of taconite still to be had in the north range...in
fact, we EXPORT a lot of it to Israel, Germany and China...who then turn it
into iron and steel and then sell it to US rolling mills.

Third point...You need to lighten the *^%& up! Not all comments are made to
be read literally...sometimes, there is a parable or an analogy being made.
Jack makes a comment about not being able to fight WWII again because of the
loss of a manufacturing base and YOU take it to be that he said we are
buying weapons from the Chinese. I make a statement about raw steel
production...just as one piece of american manufacturing...and YOU assume
that I'm whining about running out of iron ore.

Mike

Funny you should ask this question now. I just left a Glen Huey seminar
sponsored by my local WW Guild. We talked about screws. Glen tested
drywall screws, home depot screws (e.g., Crown), McFeeley and Spaxx. Drove
25 screws of each into red oak with no pilot. 5 of the drywall screws
twisted off. None of the McFeeley and Spaxx screws twisted off. Guess how
many of the Home Depot screws twisted off? ALL of them. His advice -
NEVER buy furniture screws from the Borg. Go with McFeeley and Spaxx. They
cost less than the Borg (excluding the shipping) and are far superior.
Drywall screws have a #6 shank on a #8 head. They are not designed for use
in furniture. Surprised more of them did not snap.

Bob

"Jim Willemin" wrote in message
7.131...
Ok, so I decided to make my sweetie a nice oak bed (I snore something
awful). Almost done; the last little bit was to cut mortises and mount
the bed rail hardware (https://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=
3269) in the posts and ends of the side rails. The hardware is drilled
and countersunk for #8 screws. I drill pilot holes the length of the
screw, using a Stanley adjustable pilot-clearance-countersink bit, after
starting the holes using a self-centering bit through the hardware
itself. In the first attempt, to mount the bed rail hooks to the side
rail, two of three screws sheared at the top of the threads, leaving the
potential for the bed to be held together by one presumeably already
stressed screw. I *really* don't want to go back to the lumberyard and
get a 7 foot length of 5/4 x 8 oak to make another rail.

As I see it, I have (at least) two problems: First, if I want to
salvage the almost-completed side rail, I need to somehow extract about
an inch of wood screw that is buried a good 3/8 of an inch inside a
chunk of oak, preferably without doing so much damage that I can't re-
use the hole. I suppose I could just lengthen the mortise and
reposition the hardware, but I'm not real keen on that (fortunately, I
made the side rails an inch wider than the plans called for, so I have
some room to play with on the end of the rail. Any suggestions?

The second problem is what is stopping me right now: Any advice on how
do drive screws in oak without shearing them? I figured a full length
pilot hole in end grain, with the screw threads heavily waxed, would not
present so much friction that a #8 screw would shear, but apparently it
does. So far, I've sheared about 8 screws this afternoon, two in ind
grain and the rest in side grain, using both Crown Bolt screws from HD
and Hillcrest screws from my local lumberyard, all in pilot holes
drilled the length of the screw.

I appeal to the assembled wisdom of the group to help an admitted idiot
out of an embarassing jam (though not as embarassing as having the bed
fall apart would be). Thanks

Jim

In article ,
says...
ALL of them. His advice -
NEVER buy furniture screws from the Borg. Go with McFeeley and Spaxx. They
cost less than the Borg (excluding the shipping) and are far superior.
Drywall screws have a #6 shank on a #8 head. They are not designed for use
in furniture. Surprised more of them did not snap.

Bob

Not living on your continent things look a little different
from my p.o.v. but yeah - Chinese potmetal screws have started
replacing other makes off the shelves here, too. 8-(

Funny thing is, some of the best screws I have at the moment
are 'Gib' branded drywall screws. (Unfortunately) these are
'waferhead' screws - so they look like they have a washer
integrated into the screw head. They were sold to me to attach
sound-proofing grade drywall to profiled sheetmetal rails and
they are so hard that I have not yet managed to munge a single
head with my phillips bits nor have I managed to twist one off
yet. Used about 1/2 the box of 1000 so far. There seem to be
different grades of drywall screws out there.

Agree on Spaxx, so far as I can get them they at least have
hardened heads.

I've mostly worked around the issue by using s/s screws nearly
exclusively these days but even there there are huge
differences in quality. Some s/s screws are very soft and do
twist off in hard woods as well.

-P.

--
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com

The Davenport's wrote:
The Davenport's wrote:
Also of interest is where in the hell can anyone buy screws
not
made in China? Heck, even McFeely's were getting their screws
from
China before Grainger bought them.

I don't think it is possible. Wondering how will we defend
ourselves
if God forbid we ever have another WWll? We have no
manufacturing
base any longer.

...and we can't buy from China so unless we fight with wooden
sticks,
assuming someone knows how to make a stick, we be out of luck...

So exactly which weapons and military vehicles does the US buy
from
China?

--
--
--John

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that Jack was making a
more generalized statement as to the manufacturng base(or lack
thereof) that seems to remain here in the US. We might not be
buying
weapons from the Chinese, but we sure as hell are buying raw
material
from just about everyone! Raw steel production in the US is a very
faint shadow of what it was after WWII...depending on the study
you
read, it's anywhere from 25% down to as little as 2% of WWII
capacity.

Resources run out. Get used to it. Making "raw steel" requires
iron
ore. Even if all the steel in the world was produced in the US, if
the ore is cut off then the production stops.

All the whining in the world won't put more ore in the ground.

--
--
--John


First point...I wasn't whining, merely making a statement.

Second point...We, the United States, are NOT running out of
resources to produce iron...Lots of taconite still to be had in the
north range...in fact, we EXPORT a lot of it to Israel, Germany and
China...who then turn it into iron and steel and then sell it to US
rolling mills.

Third point...You need to lighten the *^%& up! Not all comments are
made to be read literally...sometimes, there is a parable or an
analogy being made. Jack makes a comment about not being able to
fight WWII again because of the loss of a manufacturing base and YOU
take it to be that he said we are buying weapons from the Chinese.

So where _are_ we buying them from since according to Jack we no
longer have the capability to make them ourselves? If not from China
then from where? Mexico? Zimbabwe?

make a statement about raw steel production...just as one piece of
american manufacturing...and YOU assume that I'm whining about
running out of iron ore.

No I assume you were whining about no US steel production, which you
were. Incidentally the US produces about 8 million tons a month of
raw steel and imports about 2.5 million tons a month of steel products
of all kinds, so what exactly are you whining about anyway? During
WWII the US produced about 400 million tons of iron _ore_ that would
have yielded about 120 million tons of iron. Currently in 4 years the
US produces approximately 400 million tons of raw steel alone, plus
cast iron, wrought iron, and other iron products, a level considerably
higher than that during WWII.

You really need to find some better sources of information before you
start bitching and you also need to learn not to take disagreement so
personally.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:
Jack Stein wrote:
evodawg wrote:

Also of interest is where in the hell can anyone buy screws not
made in China? Heck, even McFeely's were getting their screws
from
China before Grainger bought them.
I don't think it is possible. Wondering how will we defend
ourselves
if God forbid we ever have another WWll? We have no manufacturing
base any longer.
...and we can't buy from China so unless we fight with wooden
sticks,
assuming someone knows how to make a stick, we be out of luck...

So exactly which weapons and military vehicles does the US buy from
China?

I guess any that use screws and bolts bought from McFeely's or Grainger
at 26% markup... about triple the markup on oil... Perhaps we need a
windfall profits tax on screws. Oh, wait, the article said the
automatic government agreed mark up was 26% but that wasn't enough so
they paid 50% instead... I can't wait until Uncle Sam starts buying me
my medical care....

Anyway, I was really just poking fun at all the crap we get from China,
and the fact the article said Grainger was in trouble for selling stuff
to the military that was made in China. Seems everything is made in
China these days so if a US tank has a screw or bolt holding it
together, it probably came from China, whether Grainger re-packaged it
or not...

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

bob wrote:
Funny you should ask this question now. I just left a Glen Huey seminar
sponsored by my local WW Guild. We talked about screws. Glen tested
drywall screws, home depot screws (e.g., Crown), McFeeley and Spaxx. Drove
25 screws of each into red oak with no pilot. 5 of the drywall screws
twisted off. None of the McFeeley and Spaxx screws twisted off.

Proof that even China can make good screws if they want. My guess is
when McFeeley's contracts with China they specify a higher quality than
the Borg

Guess how
many of the Home Depot screws twisted off? ALL of them. His advice -
NEVER buy furniture screws from the Borg. Go with McFeeley and Spaxx. They
cost less than the Borg (excluding the shipping) and are far superior.
Drywall screws have a #6 shank on a #8 head. They are not designed for use
in furniture. Surprised more of them did not snap.

I agree that lots of stuff at the Borg is way, way, way over priced.
Just like all other discount places, some things are given away, while
others are next to stealing. Paying over $5 for 4 threaded inserts
(made in China) at Lowe's vs paying TWELVE TIMES LESS at Grainger is a
perfect example.

--
Jack
http://jbstein.com

Jack Stein wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Jack Stein wrote:
evodawg wrote:

Also of interest is where in the hell can anyone buy screws not
made in China? Heck, even McFeely's were getting their screws
from
China before Grainger bought them.
I don't think it is possible. Wondering how will we defend
ourselves
if God forbid we ever have another WWll? We have no manufacturing
base any longer.
...and we can't buy from China so unless we fight with wooden
sticks,
assuming someone knows how to make a stick, we be out of luck...

So exactly which weapons and military vehicles does the US buy from
China?

I guess any that use screws and bolts bought from McFeely's or
Grainger at 26% markup...

So do McFeelys and Grainger sell MS or NAS hardware?

about triple the markup on oil... Perhaps
we need a windfall profits tax on screws. Oh, wait, the article
said
the automatic government agreed mark up was 26% but that wasn't
enough so they paid 50% instead... I can't wait until Uncle Sam
starts buying me my medical care....

Anyway, I was really just poking fun at all the crap we get from
China, and the fact the article said Grainger was in trouble for
selling stuff to the military that was made in China. Seems
everything is made in China these days so if a US tank has a screw
or
bolt holding it together, it probably came from China, whether
Grainger re-packaged it or not...

I doubt that tanks are held together with fasteners from Grainger.
Anything of that nature would made either to a custom design by the
tank manufacturer or to an MS or NAS drawing, and Grainger wouldn't be
stocking either.

Grainger stuff would typically be used for facilities
maintenance--that means keeping the air conditioning in the office
working for example.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)