Have any of you with left tilt saws found the fact that the flange reference
is on the left side vs right side a problem?

I guess this would be an issue with using dado blades or when switching from
regular kerf to thin kerf. You'd have to dial in the fence for each blade.
In the case of dadoes maybe you just reference the left cutting edge---mmm..
but that's actually going to be an 1/8" off assuming your using a regular
kerf blade or 3/32nd for a thin kerf. That starts to get ugly.

I guess the tilting might also need to be taken into account, though I'm not
sure it makes any difference if it's right vs left tilt. I don't do enough
beveled cuts to remember if on my right tilt saw if either the short or long
edge of the cut is referenced to my fence reading.

It kinda seems to me with a right side extension table and fence
measurements, a right tilt saw is best (from a consistency of measure
perspective).

Kevin wrote:
Have any of you with left tilt saws found the fact that the flange
reference
is on the left side vs right side a problem?

I guess this would be an issue with using dado blades or when
switching from
regular kerf to thin kerf.

I almost never use thin-kerf blades, so it isn't really an issue. Dado
sets get measured to the fence or buried in a sacrificial fence.

I guess the tilting might also need to be taken into account, though
I'm not
sure it makes any difference if it's right vs left tilt. I don't do
enough
beveled cuts to remember if on my right tilt saw if either the short
or long
edge of the cut is referenced to my fence reading.

For bevel cuts you generally want the blade to tilt away from the fence
for safety, so you have the same measurement issue with either tilt
direction.

Chris

For bevel cuts you generally want the blade to tilt away from the fence
for safety, so you have the same measurement issue with either tilt
direction.

Chris

Regarding the safety point: As an example, imagine the kickback that could
be generated from the following:

Second bevel cut on a board on the opposite edge of the first bevel cut.
First bevel cut begins to slip under the rip fence
Now the board is trapped on three sides, left, right and top, as the blade
is tilted toward the fence, and to finish the cut, the back of the board
needs to move out from under the fence and toward the blade.

Nastiest case of kickback I could imagine and I wouldn't even want to be in
the room if it happened.

Kevin wrote:
Have any of you with left tilt saws found the fact that the flange reference
is on the left side vs right side a problem?
....

Why is it any different an issue at all?

Left tilt is the _one_true_way_, anyway, so any difference is solely
ascribed to the RT anomoly...

--

Kevin wrote:

It kinda seems to me with a right side extension table and fence
measurements, a right tilt saw is best (from a consistency of measure
perspective).


It is.

I've owned both, and you get used to it.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Kevin wrote:
Have any of you with left tilt saws found the fact that the flange
reference is on the left side vs right side a problem?
...

Why is it any different an issue at all?


With left tilt saws dado/thicker blades become wider in the direction
towards the fence. This throws off the fence measurement. Typically right
tilts stack away from the fence and do not affect the fence scale.

"Kevin" wrote in message
...
Have any of you with left tilt saws found the fact that the flange
reference is on the left side vs right side a problem?

I guess this would be an issue with using dado blades or when switching
from regular kerf to thin kerf. You'd have to dial in the fence for each
blade. In the case of dadoes maybe you just reference the left cutting
edge---mmm.. but that's actually going to be an 1/8" off assuming your
using a regular kerf blade or 3/32nd for a thin kerf. That starts to get
ugly.

I guess the tilting might also need to be taken into account, though I'm
not sure it makes any difference if it's right vs left tilt. I don't do
enough beveled cuts to remember if on my right tilt saw if either the
short or long edge of the cut is referenced to my fence reading.

It kinda seems to me with a right side extension table and fence
measurements, a right tilt saw is best (from a consistency of measure
perspective).


I have a left tilt and this measurement situation only comes in to play when
I use a dado set. I NEVER use thin kerf blades any more. The left tilts
have several small and big advantages that out weigh this situation IMHO,
especially if you are right handed.

What seems error prone on a LT w/ dado is the fact that your fence is
referencing the right side cutting edge of a regular kerf blade. 1/8" of
cut is to the left of that point. Now when you stack on the dado, you are
widening the cut to the right of there. So your fence reference point is
actually 1/8" from the left side of the groove/rabbet. Basically I guess
the rule to remember on a LT w/ dado is the cut line begins 1/8" to the left
of where the fence reads.

With a RT, you know the fence is reading true to the right-hand side of the
groove. In a LT situation you have to account for the 1/8" and thickness of
dado.

I guess if one does a lot of dadoes either 1) they opt for RT or 2) they
learn the procedure to adjust

Another poster resolved one issue by saying use only reg kerf blades. I
wonder if Forrest will swap a new reg. kerf blade for the thin kerf one I
still have in the box.



"Leon" wrote in message
. net...

"Kevin" wrote in message
...
Have any of you with left tilt saws found the fact that the flange
reference is on the left side vs right side a problem?

I guess this would be an issue with using dado blades or when switching
from regular kerf to thin kerf. You'd have to dial in the fence for each
blade. In the case of dadoes maybe you just reference the left cutting
edge---mmm.. but that's actually going to be an 1/8" off assuming your
using a regular kerf blade or 3/32nd for a thin kerf. That starts to get
ugly.

I guess the tilting might also need to be taken into account, though I'm
not sure it makes any difference if it's right vs left tilt. I don't do
enough beveled cuts to remember if on my right tilt saw if either the
short or long edge of the cut is referenced to my fence reading.

It kinda seems to me with a right side extension table and fence
measurements, a right tilt saw is best (from a consistency of measure
perspective).


I have a left tilt and this measurement situation only comes in to play
when I use a dado set. I NEVER use thin kerf blades any more. The left
tilts have several small and big advantages that out weigh this situation
IMHO, especially if you are right handed.

"Kevin" wrote

With a RT, you know the fence is reading true to the right-hand side of
the
groove. In a LT situation you have to account for the 1/8" and thickness
of
dado.

Best not to do any"accounting" at all ... that would be error prone as all
get out, especially when you start adding shims to a dado stack.

Good habit to get into with any table saw cut, regardless of left or right
tilt, is to ALWAYS verify the blade to fence setting with your project tape
measure.

Besides verifying the correct width of cut, it also verifies that you indeed
set the fence correctly ... something the resident shop dummy here has been
known to do, without any help whatsoever.

.... funny how the air turns blue whenever that happens on that last piece of
figured, high dollar wood!

DAMHIKT

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Kevin" wrote in message
...
What seems error prone on a LT w/ dado is the fact that your fence is
referencing the right side cutting edge of a regular kerf blade. 1/8" of
cut is to the left of that point. Now when you stack on the dado, you are
widening the cut to the right of there. So your fence reference point is
actually 1/8" from the left side of the groove/rabbet. Basically I guess
the rule to remember on a LT w/ dado is the cut line begins 1/8" to the
left of where the fence reads.

HUH? The thing to remember when using a dado set on a LT is to simply
measure between the fence and the right most blade with a tape measure.





With a RT, you know the fence is reading true to the right-hand side of
the groove. In a LT situation you have to account for the 1/8" and
thickness of dado.

Not!

"Leon" wrote in message
et...

"Kevin" wrote in message
...
What seems error prone on a LT w/ dado is the fact that your fence is
referencing the right side cutting edge of a regular kerf blade. 1/8" of
cut is to the left of that point. Now when you stack on the dado, you
are widening the cut to the right of there. So your fence reference
point is actually 1/8" from the left side of the groove/rabbet.
Basically I guess the rule to remember on a LT w/ dado is the cut line
begins 1/8" to the left of where the fence reads.

HUH? The thing to remember when using a dado set on a LT is to simply
measure between the fence and the right most blade with a tape measure.





With a RT, you know the fence is reading true to the right-hand side of
the groove. In a LT situation you have to account for the 1/8" and
thickness of dado.

Not!


Not, as in , just use a tape measure. ;~)

Leon wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
Kevin wrote:
Have any of you with left tilt saws found the fact that the flange
reference is on the left side vs right side a problem?
...

Why is it any different an issue at all?


With left tilt saws dado/thicker blades become wider in the direction
towards the fence. ...

'Pends on which side the fence is on...

--

"Leon" wrote in message
. net...

HUH? The thing to remember when using a dado set on a LT is to simply
measure between the fence and the right most blade with a tape measure.





With a RT, you know the fence is reading true to the right-hand side of
the groove. In a LT situation you have to account for the 1/8" and
thickness of dado.

Not!


Not, as in , just use a tape measure. ;~)


Folding rule. Amazing how a convenience - having a tape on the fence - has
become a necessity, what? The most important thing to remember with either
tilt is to make sure your measurement to the inside is not identical to the
measurment on your drawing for the outside of the dado.

So why do we have tape measures on the fence guide?

I rarely use a tape measure on my tablesaw. That's the whole point of
having a Biesemeyer style fence with integrated rule. Set it once and
forget about it.

For the folks still using a rule to setup their saw, then this discussion
does not apply.

What next? Should I check the front and rear measurements of the fence?
C'mon.. There's only 2 reasons to have a t-square type fence:
1) parallel to the blade at all times
2) integrated ruler

With a RT, you know the fence is reading true to the right-hand side of
the
groove. In a LT situation you have to account for the 1/8" and thickness
of
dado.

Best not to do any"accounting" at all ... that would be error prone as all
get out, especially when you start adding shims to a dado stack.

Good habit to get into with any table saw cut, regardless of left or right
tilt, is to ALWAYS verify the blade to fence setting with your project
tape
measure.

Besides verifying the correct width of cut, it also verifies that you
indeed
set the fence correctly ... something the resident shop dummy here has
been
known to do, without any help whatsoever.

... funny how the air turns blue whenever that happens on that last piece
of
figured, high dollar wood!

DAMHIKT

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)



DINGDINGDINGDING!!!!!!!!!!!

Ladies and Gentlemen, We have a winner!

I ___NEVER___ use the scale for anything other than getting
sorta-kinda-inakissin'cousin-kinda way close. Then I actually measure from
the blade to the fence.

I got into this habit as a kid because the saw that my father had had about
the worst POS fence that sears ever put on a saw...but dad never figured he
needed more...or that there was better out there, so I couldn't trust the
scale at all.

In fact, couldn't trust the thing to clamp straight, either.

Mike

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:08:33 -0700, "Kevin"
wrote:

So why do we have tape measures on the fence guide?

I rarely use a tape measure on my tablesaw. That's the whole point of
having a Biesemeyer style fence with integrated rule. Set it once and
forget about it.

For the folks still using a rule to setup their saw, then this discussion
does not apply.

What next? Should I check the front and rear measurements of the fence?
C'mon.. There's only 2 reasons to have a t-square type fence:
1) parallel to the blade at all times
2) integrated ruler

I always have considered the tape on the fence rail to be a
convenience, not a precision measurement.

I don't consider using a tape measure to check the distance to be a
precision measurement either, but generally better than reading from
the scale on the table saw.

I always have considered the tape on the fence rail to be a
convenience, not a precision measurement.

I don't consider using a tape measure to check the distance to be a
precision measurement either, but generally better than reading from
the scale on the table saw.

I felt that way too until I got a Biesemeyer fence. Its tape and
hairline cursor are MUCH more precise than a tape or rule, and faster
& easier to read too. I've checked the width of ripped pieces with a
dial caliper and consistently found them to be within 0.01 inch of the
intended width. Maybe you can do that with a tape, but I can't.

DonkeyHody
"I'd rather expect the best of people and be wrong than expect the
worst and be right."

DonkeyHody wrote:

I felt that way too until I got a Biesemeyer fence. Its tape and
hairline cursor are MUCH more precise than a tape or rule, and faster
& easier to read too. I've checked the width of ripped pieces with a
dial caliper and consistently found them to be within 0.01 inch of the
intended width. Maybe you can do that with a tape, but I can't.

I've found the same to be true even on my Ridgid TS3650 stock fence.

"Kevin" wrote

What next? Should I check the front and rear measurements of the fence?
C'mon.. There's only 2 reasons to have a t-square type fence:
1) parallel to the blade at all times
2) integrated ruler

Mine is a Uni-fence on a Unisaw ... it is precision personified, and the
fence ruler happens to correspond _perfectly_ to my two favorite Stanley 12'
rulers, a rare and happy circumstance in the shop and one to take every
advantage of, and to cherish til death do us part.

HOWEVER, the operator is often NOT precision personified ... he has been
known to set the fence to 23 3/8" instead of the required 23 5/8", or
somesuch ... and on more than one occasion.

Therefore, and when working with expen$ive wood, the requirement to verify,
verify ... and verify again.

.... nuff said.

(Maybe you just haven't reached that "certain" age?)


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"The Davenport's" wrote in message
...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)



DINGDINGDINGDING!!!!!!!!!!!

Ladies and Gentlemen, We have a winner!

I ___NEVER___ use the scale for anything other than getting
sorta-kinda-inakissin'cousin-kinda way close. Then I actually measure from
the blade to the fence.

I got into this habit as a kid because the saw that my father had had
about the worst POS fence that sears ever put on a saw...but dad never
figured he needed more...or that there was better out there, so I couldn't
trust the scale at all.

In fact, couldn't trust the thing to clamp straight, either.

Mike


ding dong? You need a better fence. I measured for some 13 or so years
and could not wait to simply depend on the fence scale. For the last 10
years I have been using 2 different Jet fences, Bies clones. Both were
repeatable accurate. I only use the tape measure when using something that
cuts wider than 1/8" or when cutting bevel cuts.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

Mine is a Uni-fence on a Unisaw ... it is precision personified, and the
fence ruler happens to correspond _perfectly_ to my two favorite Stanley
12'
rulers, a rare and happy circumstance in the shop and one to take every
advantage of, and to cherish til death do us part.


And as testament to the accuracy of your Unifence and some one else's Jet
Bies clone fence is that they both cut parts on 2 different saws and they
all fit together. ;~)

"Swingman" wrote:

Therefore, and when working with expen$ive wood, the requirement to
verify,
verify ... and verify again.

... nuff said.

"Measure twice, cut once" or whatever floats your boat.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Swingman" wrote:

Therefore, and when working with expen$ive wood, the requirement to
verify,
verify ... and verify again.

... nuff said.

"Measure twice, cut once" or whatever floats your boat.


Exactly, that is the reason to use a tape. Some times a measurement looks
totally different when the fraction of an inch is on the other side of the
whole number. ;~)

With an upside down backward tape measure I was often known to adjust 23 and
1/4" to actually cut 22 and 3/4".

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in news:13s747p2ulhpe37
@corp.supernews.com:


"Measure twice, cut once" or whatever floats your boat.

Lew


If I stopped at the second measurement, nothing would fit!

I like the saying "you can always remove more wood, but you can't add
any." (There's also "Cut it twice and it's still too short!!!")

Puckdropper
--
Marching to the beat of a different drum is great... unless you're in
marching band.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

DINGDINGDINGDING!!!!!!!!!!!

Ladies and Gentlemen, We have a winner!

I ___NEVER___ use the scale for anything other than getting
sorta-kinda-inakissin'cousin-kinda way close. Then I actually measure
from the blade to the fence.

I got into this habit as a kid because the saw that my father had had
about the worst POS fence that sears ever put on a saw...but dad never
figured he needed more...or that there was better out there, so I
couldn't trust the scale at all.

In fact, couldn't trust the thing to clamp straight, either.

Mike


ding dong? You need a better fence. I measured for some 13 or so years
and could not wait to simply depend on the fence scale. For the last 10
years I have been using 2 different Jet fences, Bies clones. Both were
repeatable accurate. I only use the tape measure when using something
that cuts wider than 1/8" or when cutting bevel cuts.

I HAVE a better fence now...it was Dad that was too cheap to buy a different
one.

I don't have a Tee-square fence, but the one I have now is good and the
price was right. The fact that I still measure each cut is a habit I've
tried to get away from, but I just can't seem to do it...a little bit OCD
about it, I guess.

Mike

"Leon" wrote in message

With an upside down backward tape measure I was often known to adjust 23
and 1/4" to actually cut 22 and 3/4".

Then you have to turn it over and cut the other side to get it right.

"The Davenport's" wrote in message
...

I don't have a Tee-square fence, but the one I have now is good and the
price was right. The fact that I still measure each cut is a habit I've
tried to get away from, but I just can't seem to do it...a little bit OCD
about it, I guess.

Mike


LOL, after using a tape measure with a lousy fence I had no problems not
using one when I got a good fence. :~)

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

"Leon" wrote in message

With an upside down backward tape measure I was often known to adjust 23
and 1/4" to actually cut 22 and 3/4".

Then you have to turn it over and cut the other side to get it right.


Ohhhh..

"Jones" wrote in message

You mean people actually *USE* those goofy stick-on rules glued to the
fence rail?

I don't!

Goofy? Not mine, it is extremely precise with the Beis fence. Shame yours
is not reliable.

"Jones" wrote in message
news:2008022906431977923-at@yourhousenet...
On 2008-02-28 22:52:00 -0500, "Edwin Pawlowski" said:


"Jones" wrote in message

You mean people actually *USE* those goofy stick-on rules glued to the
fence rail?

I don't!

Goofy? Not mine, it is extremely precise with the Beis fence. Shame
yours
is not reliable.

I suppose I could loosen the screws and move the pointer, but I just don't
trust it.

My default is to use the rule between the fence and the blade...or use bar
stock for setting height, etc.

Then you don't have to worry about whether the pointer or the fence rail
or the part of the fence that holds the pointer moved, or the plastic lens
that holds the reticle bent, or had its refractive index change, or the
lines of the planet's magnetic flux shifted, or whatever.

The fewer links in the chain, and simpler the sequence of events the
better, I figure. YMMV.


That is probably the best approach with your quality tool phobia.

You mean people actually *USE* those goofy stick-on rules glued to the
fence rail?

I don't!

Goofy? *Not mine, it is extremely precise with the Beis fence. *Shame yours
is not reliable.

I suppose I could loosen the screws and move the pointer, but I just
don't trust it.

My default is to use the rule between the fence and the blade...or use
bar stock for setting height, etc.

Then you don't have to worry about whether the pointer or the fence
rail or the part of the fence that holds the pointer moved, or the
plastic lens that holds the reticle bent, or had its refractive index
change, or the lines of the planet's magnetic flux shifted, or whatever.

The fewer links in the chain, and simpler the sequence of events the
better, I figure. YMMV.

A few years ago, my nephew was in the high school marching band. When
it was time for the local Christmas parade, my sister - proud parent
that she was - videotaped the band as they passed by. Christmas Day
we were all gathered around the television to re-live his moment of
glory. As we all watched the video, my nephew exclaimed, "Hey look,
everybody's out of step but me!"

Keep doing it your way Jones, everybody's out of step but you.

DonkeyHody
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits
down
on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
one anymore." - Mark Twain

"Jones" wrote in message
news:2008022815563116807-at@yourhousenet...
On 2008-02-25 12:50:30 -0500, "Kevin"
said:


You mean people actually *USE* those goofy stick-on rules glued to the
fence rail?

I don't!


Absolutely, but you can't have a goofey saw and or fence.

"Jones" wrote in message
news:2008022906431977923-at@yourhousenet...
On 2008-02-28 22:52:00 -0500, "Edwin Pawlowski" said:

I suppose I could loosen the screws and move the pointer, but I just don't
trust it.

If you had a good fence you would not give it a second thought.


My default is to use the rule between the fence and the blade...or use bar
stock for setting height, etc.

I usta do that when I had a **** poor fence.



Then you don't have to worry about whether the pointer or the fence rail
or the part of the fence that holds the pointer moved, or the plastic lens
that holds the reticle bent, or had its refractive index change, or the
lines of the planet's magnetic flux shifted, or whatever.

The fewer links in the chain, and simpler the sequence of events the
better, I figure. YMMV.


Measuring between the blade and the fence increases those links and chance
for error. If you don't hold the rule perpendicular to the blade or fence
you can end up with a cut that is too narrow. Most all modern fences these
days offer repeatable accuracy.

"Jones" wrote in message
news:2008022918280975249-at@yourhousenet...
On 2008-02-29 12:19:32 -0500, "Leon" said:

(Yep, everybody knows those Powermatic 66s are a POS.)

Rock on.



Yeah, If you have a PM 66. Not likely you have one and cannot depend on the
fence to give you good readings.

"Jones" wrote in message
I suppose I could loosen the screws and move the pointer, but I just don't
trust it.

My default is to use the rule between the fence and the blade...or use bar
stock for setting height, etc.

Then you don't have to worry about whether the pointer or the fence rail
or the part of the fence that holds the pointer moved, or the plastic lens
that holds the reticle bent, or had its refractive index change, or the
lines of the planet's magnetic flux shifted, or whatever.

The fewer links in the chain, and simpler the sequence of events the
better, I figure. YMMV.

You worry too much. With my old saw, I'd agree. With my Delta and
Beisemeyer fence, the shortest and fewest links is to trust the fence as it
is accurate and repeatable and firmly locks to where the line is pointing on
the scale. More accurate than a shifting fence when you lock it after
measuring.

Sorry you have an inadequate tool.

Sorry you have an inadequate tool.

Be nice, Edwin. He already has issues, and now you want to give him
fence envy.

DonkeyHody
"If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a
nail." - Abraham Maslow

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Jones" wrote in message
I suppose I could loosen the screws and move the pointer, but I just don't
trust it.

My default is to use the rule between the fence and the blade...or use bar
stock for setting height, etc.

Then you don't have to worry about whether the pointer or the fence rail
or the part of the fence that holds the pointer moved, or the plastic lens
that holds the reticle bent, or had its refractive index change, or the
lines of the planet's magnetic flux shifted, or whatever.

The fewer links in the chain, and simpler the sequence of events the
better, I figure. YMMV.

You worry too much. With my old saw, I'd agree. With my Delta and
Beisemeyer fence, the shortest and fewest links is to trust the fence as it
is accurate and repeatable and firmly locks to where the line is pointing on
the scale. More accurate than a shifting fence when you lock it after
measuring.

Sorry you have an inadequate tool.



LOL.

--

Tanus

http://www.home.mycybernet.net/~waugh/shop/