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#41
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Need table saw advice
And to me, a router for "edge" jointing seems very logical to use.
Methinks even cleaner cuts are possible than with a large, much slower jointer blade. I don't know how many RPMs the jointer runs at, but I'd hazard a guess that it can't safely run as fast as a 1/2" straight bit in a router. Hence, straighter cleaner edges. -- The software said it ran under Windows 98/NT/2000, or better. So I installed it on Linux... "Marc" wrote in message igy.com... It's a good point and one I have considered a lot. Probably the reason I am asking a group so I can separate and distinguish my wants from my needs. If all I have is a shop with a great table saw, I'm not going to be able to do much. There will be more funds in the near future but what will I do until then? I have some nice hand tools, Japanese chisels, LN 4 1/2 plane, and a few other items. but I am using a router table for a jointer which is not very suitable. I need some better squares and clamps etc. not to mention WOOD, it's not cheap. On the other hand maybe it is better to get this one big item out-of-the-way so I never have to consider it again, and slowly build a shop of only quality items over time. I've heard of people subsituting a quality band-saw and using it for a table-saw duty, that is what laguana seems to suggest on their band saw video. But I don't see how that could work, small table, no dado, table tilts instead of blade, lateral limitation by yoke of band saw, I just don't see that working out. It's a tough question, and it makes me realize how expensive this hobby is. Thanks for your input. Marc "Michael Baglio @nc.rr.com" mbaglioNOSPAM wrote in message ... On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:26:40 GMT, "Marc" wrote: ..... 5, and finally.) It will, (or should, anyway) cost you at least another several hundred dollars for the quality support tools you will need to reach the precision you say you demand. Squares, guages, markers, chisels, planes, etc., aren't cheap. Matter o' fact they're darned pricey. Are they in your budget? Can't do quality precision work without them. What about Jointers, Planers, etc.? Got Money? tm ...... |
#42
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Need table saw advice
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:33:01 +0000, David Binkowski wrote:
Can someone explain to me the fascination with dado blades on table saws? I use a router for all dados (it SEEMS easier). All woodworkers have at least one router, so why do people use table saws for dados ? 1) stacked dado can be set to exact width required (up to 13/16") and done in one pass. 2) full depth can be done in one pass. 3) faster setup against fence or on sled. 4) chips/dust can be somewhat more easily controlled. 5) tablesaws don't suffer from ARHA. (DAMHIKT) -Doug BTW, I use my stacked dado on my RAS as my TS is a weenie tabletop model with a short arbor. |
#43
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Need table saw advice
I think the problem may be that some people see the BS simply as
an overgrown scroll saw. At the wood shows I've gone to, both at the same place, the demos were all novelties done with the tiniest blades possible, showing tight, mazelike curves being cut in a block of wood. Not good advertizing for a BS. They should have shown resawing an 11" hard maple log into boards or something. The Laguna demos were a bit more inspirational, showing basic jointing on the BS, starting with an irregular block of wood, creating the first flat side, then moving on to joint the thing into a dimensional piece of wood. Since the table/blade/fence are all set at 90 degree and 0 degree angles to one another, its not hard to imagine how easy that is to do. -- The software said it ran under Windows 98/NT/2000, or better. So I installed it on Linux... "Michael Daly" wrote in message .cable.rogers.com... On 13-Nov-2003, Michael Baglio wrote: My $0.02, based on observation as a newbie, rather than experience. An awful lot of this world does just fine with a really good bandsaw as their weapon of choice. While a beginner without a table saw, I often think that folks overemphasize the TS. Sorta like the "if all you have is a hammer..." approach to life. Even router tables are made to look more like a TS than a router. Why should a RT fence be parallel to the edge of the table? The router is not a linear device like a TS - the fence can go at _any_ angle! Consider that with the exception of dadoing, This could be done with a router. And a decent router is comparable in cost to a decent dado blade kit for a TS. I got a bandsaw, based on my needs (mostly boatbuilding based). I can do most things that I can think of with this except cut really wide pieces of wood (like sheets of plywood/MDf/etc). Crosscuts I do with a hand saw. I also was infuenced by the FWW 1st annual Tools&Shops issue, where Gary Rogowski suggests that your first power tool should be a BS (unless your needs are cutting wide chunks of wood). It seems to me that a lot of folks could make good use of a BS and RT to do more than a TS could. I can cut thru 6" of wood more easily than with a TS - that would require me to cut, flip over and cut again. The BS is a substitute for a scroll saw, as long as curves aren't too tight. The router will allow plunge cut dadoes and grooves rather than the continuous versions that most TS users get. Much neater than having a groove sticking out the end of a hunk of wood. If I needed to cut plywood/MDF/etc (in the short term given my _very_ limited budget), I'd probably go for a decent straightedge and circ saw and use the BS for everything once the big sheets are down to size. But that would suit my needs, possibly not many others'. Anyway, if you need a TS, it's an excellent tool. But I wonder if some folks focus on the TS too much. Mike |
#44
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Need table saw advice
David Binkowski wrote:
Can someone explain to me the fascination with dado blades on table saws? I use a router for all dados (it SEEMS easier). All woodworkers have at least one router, so why do people use table saws for dados ? I thought exactly the same thing. But when building a bookcase for my teenage daughter I needed to make a bunch of 3/4" dados. The ones on the ends of the up and down parts would be no problem on my router table, but the ones in the middle would have required demounting my DW 621 from the router table. So I took the time to set up my dado in the table saw. Wow! It cut much faster than the router! I didn't have to make two or three passes to get the cuts as deep as desired, one pass through the dado on my dado-enabled Grizzly contractor saw worked peachy keen. It was no more a problem to cut the dados in the middle of the 4' board than the ends! The fantasy shop of my dreams has (at least g) three table saws. My current Grizzly contractor saw is the permanent "just a shade under 3/4" dado" saw for cutting dados for plywood shelves. A fantasy right-tilt cabinet saw has a sliding table attachment. A fantasy left-tilt cabinet saw with a long fence lets me rip a 4x8' sheet anywhere I durn well please. Back in the real world of my single car garage shop and my single Griz saw, for certain cuts I take the time to mount the dado. -- Mark |
#45
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Need table saw advice
On 13-Nov-2003, "JackD" wrote:
I find it quite useful for ripping wood precisely. The blade doesn't wander like it would on a bandsaw. I'll take your word on this. It seems that many get good results with a good TS. However, the few bits I've seen done by folks I know are usually no better (often worse) than my BS. However, they are not woodworkers with considerable talent and/or use poor quality or poorly adjusted stuff. It has given me the preconceived notion that a TS makes a really rough cut. Ripping at an angle can be hairy on a bandsaw, but on a TS it is no problem because the work stays flat and the blade tilts. I've ripped a big chunk of quarter sawn oak at an angle and it was very hairy only because I couldn't use the fence. I was cutting to follow the grain and had to follow the curve of the trunk just below the bark. If cutting with one side straight, it's not so bad, since I rest it against the fence. If long, supporting the free end on edge is a PITA. I could see a TS being better. I'm not trying to rag the TS, just say that there seems to be such a strong emphasis on the tool at the expense of what might be a better tool for some tasks. Example - I'm fixing up an old oak dresser and instead of M&T joints at the back, they put a long groove down the vertical bits (stile?) and stuck tenons on the horizontal bits. The tenons were glued into the groove and the glue is now letting go - so gravity takes over. This is an example to me of someone choosing a TS over a morticer or router and creating a sloppy result. Mike |
#46
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Need table saw advice
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:30:58 -0700, Charles Jones
wrote: In article . com, says... I read a comparison and general rated very high, but I can't find much information on general. Does the manufacture have a website? http://www.general.ca/ CharlesJ Anybody have any comments about General's T-Square fence? Thanks, Barry |
#47
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Need table saw advice
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:10:14 GMT, "David Binkowski"
wrote: You know, I've debated this issue myself. And I'm almost to the conclusion that I can do any heavy ripping on my bandsaw anyway. Would I really need a 3 HP+ motor on a table saw since I'd mostly be using it for finish quality cuts and joints ? My 1.5 HP Delta would take care of any rips up to 6" thick, with no risk of burning. All I'd have to do is plane it afterwards, and some have to do that to wood cut on their table saws anyway. I still love the idea of buying myself a nice cabinet, but I'm thinking as far as a table saw goes, a beefy contractor (+two iron wings) would give me enough stability and power to do all I will need. I'm not terribly satisfied with the state of table saws and how they work right now either. Its counterintuitive to think I can actually use it without being injured or at least frightened to the point of soiling myself. A bandsaw is an amazing versatile machine. If I were limited on space, a bandsaw would be my choice. But, nothing rips better than a tablesaw. Sure you can get injured, but I know a guy that lost his finger on a bandsaw. Table saws have not changed much in the last 20 years, maybe people are less safety-minded. I feel less safe in a vehicle, than when using my table saw. |
#48
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Need table saw advice
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 04:33:01 GMT, "David Binkowski"
wrote: Can someone explain to me the fascination with dado blades on table saws? I use a router for all dados (it SEEMS easier). All woodworkers have at least one router, so why do people use table saws for dados ? I've done it both ways, and I found the tablesaw to be more precise and faster setup. |
#49
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Need table saw advice
"David Binkowski" wrote in message om... | | I think the problem may be that some people see the BS | simply as an overgrown scroll saw. That's the pretext under which I bought mine. It wasn't until I'd owned it for a year or so that I figured out you could use the darned thing to cut in a straight line. It was another three years before I got adept enough at using all the guides and tuning all the adjustments to even start to use the thing in the way it's supposed to be used. And now that I feel more comfortable with it, I want a better one. Had I known what I'd be using it for, I'd have sprung for a better model. | They should have shown resawing an 11" hard maple log into | boards or something. I saw a guy cutting his own veneer with his bandsaw. He was just happily shaving off 1/16" thicknesses of birdseye maple. --Jay |
#50
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Need table saw advice
Really, I'm surprised. Is that just a strong brand preference or is the
powermatic contractor saw just plain better? "Phisherman" wrote in message ... I'd rather have a Powermatic contractor tablesaw than a Craftsman cabinet saw. |
#51
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Need table saw advice
The answer to both of your questions is easy: "no" and "no".
However, my question, I am still having difficulty answering. "Chris Merrill" wrote in message .com... Marc wrote: It boils down to the question: will I be able to tell the difference between a contractor or cabinet saw at a hobbyist level of use? IMO, it boils down to different questions: Are you good enough to work around the weakness of the tool? Or will you get angry and blame the tool for your failures? |
#52
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Need table saw advice
Bay Area Dave wrote:
Never tell SWMBO that you can build quality stuff with "middle of the road" tools. Any SWMBO with kids will readily tell you she did. Bill Ranck Blacksburg, Va. |
#53
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Need table saw advice
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#54
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Need table saw advice
"Michael Daly" wrote in message .cable.rogers.com... On 13-Nov-2003, "JackD" wrote: I find it quite useful for ripping wood precisely. The blade doesn't wander like it would on a bandsaw. I'll take your word on this. It seems that many get good results with a good TS. However, the few bits I've seen done by folks I know are usually no better (often worse) than my BS. However, they are not woodworkers with considerable talent and/or use poor quality or poorly adjusted stuff. It has given me the preconceived notion that a TS makes a really rough cut. Smooth as glass actually. My experience is the opposite of yours. Ripping at an angle can be hairy on a bandsaw, but on a TS it is no problem because the work stays flat and the blade tilts. I've ripped a big chunk of quarter sawn oak at an angle and it was very hairy only because I couldn't use the fence. I was cutting to follow the grain and had to follow the curve of the trunk just below the bark. I'm not saying it is not possible, but big pieces on a tilted table follow the laws of gravity. A table saw will never be able to follow the curve of the trunk (or any curve) though. That is why I'd like to have a bandsaw. Example - I'm fixing up an old oak dresser and instead of M&T joints at the back, they put a long groove down the vertical bits (stile?) and stuck tenons on the horizontal bits. The tenons were glued into the groove and the glue is now letting go - so gravity takes over. This is an example to me of someone choosing a TS over a morticer or router and creating a sloppy result. Sounds like poor design rather than a tool limitation. I cut real tenons on the table saw. It works great. A band saw would work just as well. Neither one of them does very well chopping mortises however... -Jack |
#55
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Need table saw advice
In article ,
David Binkowski wrote: And to me, a router for "edge" jointing seems very logical to use. Methinks even cleaner cuts are possible than with a large, much slower jointer blade. I don't know how many RPMs the jointer runs at, but I'd hazard a guess that it can't safely run as fast as a 1/2" straight bit in a router. Hence, straighter cleaner edges. ...rest snipped... Actually if my arithmetic is OK the speed at the tip of the cutting edge of a router bit and a jointer blade are in the same ballpark. -- Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland |
#56
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Need table saw advice
In article , wrote:
Bay Area Dave wrote: Never tell SWMBO that you can build quality stuff with "middle of the road" tools. Any SWMBO with kids will readily tell you she did. Bill Ranck Blacksburg, Va. Q. Why did the chicken go to the middle of the road? A. Because she wanted to lay it on the line. |
#57
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Need table saw advice
In article . com,
Marc wrote: Ok, I am know various permutations of this question have been asked before (I've done google searchs and read reviews), but I still need some more specific and up-to-date input. I am building a wood working shop,. Over the course of a year or so I have read books on woodworking, watched NYW on TV, and I have built chess boards, boxes, and a workbench, mostly simple stuff with relatively cheap tools. I have decided I like the hobby and want to invest in some quality tools. Currently I have a $200 portable craftsman table saw. Usually in a hobby I go as cheap as possible until I decide if I like it or not, then I try to go quality so I don't re-buy. So I am going to buy either a cabinet saw (unisaw, powermatic, grizzly, shop fox, etc.) or a contractor saw. If I go with a good contractor saw like deltaX 36-507x I'll have plenty of money for other things but I don't want to do that if I am putting myself in a situation where I need to upgrade in the future. It boils down to the question: will I be able to tell the difference between a contractor or cabinet saw at a hobbyist level of use? Are cabinet saws mostly just for production type work in a cabinet shop or are they more precise and better suited for a hobbyist who wants to only make a few fine pieces? Is a grizzly cabinet saw better buy than a deltaX contractor saw (they cost the same)? Right now I am leaning toward just putting about $2000 into a good cabinet saw, dado set, portable base, and tenon jig. I have the room and a 220 outlet. If you think there is a better way to go please give me your advice before I make an expensive mistake. I plan to use the saw for a lifetime and make everything from furniture to a doghouse with it, but it will only be in my spare time and weekends. I don't know if it makes a difference but I am very big on precision, I like things to fit perfect. Any advice would be appreciated. It is almost *never* a "mistake" to 'over buy' on tooling. If you buy a "better grade than you can make use of" you'll never be dissatisfied with the _tool_. There are really only about two _major_ differences between a good contractor saw, and a good cabinet saw. (There -is- a third one -- having to do with the efficiency of a dust-collector hook-up; cabinet saws *are* notably better at containing sawdust, but that is rarely a 'deal breaker' consideration.) Difference #1: "Power." Contractor saws tend to max out at around 2HP, while cabinet saws are often 3HP, or sometimes 5HP. The question to consider is "do you _need_ that extra horsepower?" Which depends utterly on what you'll be doing -- you can cut -anything- on a low-power saw, if you're willing to go 'slow enough'. If you're "only rarely" dealing with softwood stock thicker than nominal 2", or hardwoods over 1" to maybe 1-1/2", the 'extra power' available with the bigger HP saw is *not* likely to get called on. OTOH, if you -do- plan to spend significant amounts of time working 'thick' stock, the bigger motor *will* be helpful. Difference #2: trunnion 'architecture'. Without going into the 'gory details', let it suffice to say that this affects how well the saw 'holds' its set-up, and the ease with which one can tune it to the optimal settings. Again, cabinet saws are ahead on this one, But, on _any_ quality saw that doesn't get banged around, this is something you do "once in a blue moon" -- if that often. In 'normal', hobbiest, use, it will usually be many, *many* years before the blade set-up needs adjusting a 2nd time. Once you've got them set up, and 'tuned', there's little "functional" difference between the two types, *UNLESS* you're cutting big hard lumber. One last *possible* consideration -- I've never seen a contractor saw with a blade bigger than 10". Cabinet saws _are_ available with bigger blades (although at a considerable cost increment); my H.S. shop had two cabinet saws -- a 'normal' 10" one, and an "industrial size" monster, which had a 16" blade. |
#58
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Need table saw advice
Mark Jerde wrote:
The fantasy shop of my dreams has (at least g) three table saws. My Mine too. Or at least two. I don't even *have* a dado set yet, but I sure could use one. I'm all the time doing multi-pass, clean-up-with-a-chisel type stuff. One thing keeping me from buying a dado set (other than money) is the thought that while my current method is tedious, at least I don't have to screw with changing the blade. So... I'd like to have a dedicated dado saw. You can do so much with a table saw in that fashion. Even cut tenons without bothering to build a tenoning jig. I think a dado set would be very damn handy. Surely a lot easier than doing any of these jobs with a router. Especially with *my* anemic, inaccurate, screaming piece of crap. -- Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621 http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/ |
#59
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Need table saw advice
Yes, I put one on my 36-650 contractor saw... the 52" model.
I LOVE it... accurate repeatable cuts, and well built. Highly recommended. No affiliation, just a happy customer. Dave. B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:30:58 -0700, Charles Jones wrote: In article . com, says... I read a comparison and general rated very high, but I can't find much information on general. Does the manufacture have a website? http://www.general.ca/ CharlesJ Anybody have any comments about General's T-Square fence? Thanks, Barry |
#60
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Need table saw advice
I was building some vertical storage bins for framing fillet
recently and had to cut 1/4" dados in FULL sheets of MDF for the backing... 3" apart. I cut 4 sheets in an hour and a half. Could you do that with a router as quickly??? ;-) Oh, yah, no dust! Dave. David Binkowski wrote: Can someone explain to me the fascination with dado blades on table saws? I use a router for all dados (it SEEMS easier). All woodworkers have at least one router, so why do people use table saws for dados ? "Marc" wrote in message igy.com... It's a good point and one I have considered a lot. Probably the reason I am asking a group so I can separate and distinguish my wants from my needs. If all I have is a shop with a great table saw, I'm not going to be able to do much. There will be more funds in the near future but what will I do until then? I have some nice hand tools, Japanese chisels, LN 4 1/2 plane, and a few other items. but I am using a router table for a jointer which is not very suitable. I need some better squares and clamps etc. not to mention WOOD, it's not cheap. On the other hand maybe it is better to get this one big item out-of-the-way so I never have to consider it again, and slowly build a shop of only quality items over time. I've heard of people subsituting a quality band-saw and using it for a table-saw duty, that is what laguana seems to suggest on their band saw video. But I don't see how that could work, small table, no dado, table tilts instead of blade, lateral limitation by yoke of band saw, I just don't see that working out. It's a tough question, and it makes me realize how expensive this hobby is. Thanks for your input. Marc "Michael Baglio @nc.rr.com" mbaglioNOSPAM wrote in message . .. On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:26:40 GMT, "Marc" wrote: ..... 5, and finally.) It will, (or should, anyway) cost you at least another several hundred dollars for the quality support tools you will need to reach the precision you say you demand. Squares, guages, markers, chisels, planes, etc., aren't cheap. Matter o' fact they're darned pricey. Are they in your budget? Can't do quality precision work without them. What about Jointers, Planers, etc.? Got Money? tm ...... |
#61
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Need table saw advice
Dave wrote:
I was building some vertical storage bins for framing fillet recently and had to cut 1/4" dados in FULL sheets of MDF for the backing... 3" apart. I cut 4 sheets in an hour and a half. Could you do that with a router as quickly??? ;-) Oh, yah, no dust! FULL 4x8' sheets? You must have a great outfeed / infeed / side support system. Or do you have one of those European monsters with the sliding table attached? -- Mark |
#62
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Need table saw advice
:-) Yep, a full 4X8 sheet of 3/4 MDF on a 2X6 frame for
outfeed, and a workbench ahead of the saw at the same height. The 52" fence required a LONG table extension that does the rest! I have a 36-650 CS in the middle of all that! :-) Does a great job. Dave. Mark Jerde wrote: Dave wrote: I was building some vertical storage bins for framing fillet recently and had to cut 1/4" dados in FULL sheets of MDF for the backing... 3" apart. I cut 4 sheets in an hour and a half. Could you do that with a router as quickly??? ;-) Oh, yah, no dust! FULL 4x8' sheets? You must have a great outfeed / infeed / side support system. Or do you have one of those European monsters with the sliding table attached? -- Mark |
#63
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Need table saw advice
Thanks for everyones advice and comments. I bought a right-tilt Delta
x-unisaw with a 50 inch Beis at the Arlington TX woodworking show this last weekend. I'm satisfied with my decision and look forward to using the saw. Marc "Marc" wrote in message igy.com... Ok, I am know various permutations of this question have been asked before (I've done google searchs and read reviews), but I still need some more specific and up-to-date input. I am building a wood working shop,. Over the course of a year or so I have read books on woodworking, watched NYW on TV, and I have built chess boards, boxes, and a workbench, mostly simple stuff with relatively cheap tools. I have decided I like the hobby and want to invest in some quality tools. Currently I have a $200 portable craftsman table saw. Usually in a hobby I go as cheap as possible until I decide if I like it or not, then I try to go quality so I don't re-buy. So I am going to buy either a cabinet saw (unisaw, powermatic, grizzly, shop fox, etc.) or a contractor saw. If I go with a good contractor saw like deltaX 36-507x I'll have plenty of money for other things but I don't want to do that if I am putting myself in a situation where I need to upgrade in the future. It boils down to the question: will I be able to tell the difference between a contractor or cabinet saw at a hobbyist level of use? Are cabinet saws mostly just for production type work in a cabinet shop or are they more precise and better suited for a hobbyist who wants to only make a few fine pieces? Is a grizzly cabinet saw better buy than a deltaX contractor saw (they cost the same)? Right now I am leaning toward just putting about $2000 into a good cabinet saw, dado set, portable base, and tenon jig. I have the room and a 220 outlet. If you think there is a better way to go please give me your advice before I make an expensive mistake. I plan to use the saw for a lifetime and make everything from furniture to a doghouse with it, but it will only be in my spare time and weekends. I don't know if it makes a difference but I am very big on precision, I like things to fit perfect. Any advice would be appreciated. |
#64
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Need table saw advice
It's been 2 whole days...48 hours...and you haven't made sawdust yet? Don't
tell us you took time out to sleep in the last 2 days. lol "Marc" wrote in message . .. Thanks for everyones advice and comments. I bought a right-tilt Delta x-unisaw with a 50 inch Beis at the Arlington TX woodworking show this last weekend. I'm satisfied with my decision and look forward to using the saw. Marc "Marc" wrote in message igy.com... Ok, I am know various permutations of this question have been asked before (I've done google searchs and read reviews), but I still need some more specific and up-to-date input. I am building a wood working shop,. Over the course of a year or so I have read books on woodworking, watched NYW on TV, and I have built chess boards, boxes, and a workbench, mostly simple stuff with relatively cheap tools. I have decided I like the hobby and want to invest in some quality tools. Currently I have a $200 portable craftsman table saw. Usually in a hobby I go as cheap as possible until I decide if I like it or not, then I try to go quality so I don't re-buy. So I am going to buy either a cabinet saw (unisaw, powermatic, grizzly, shop fox, etc.) or a contractor saw. If I go with a good contractor saw like deltaX 36-507x I'll have plenty of money for other things but I don't want to do that if I am putting myself in a situation where I need to upgrade in the future. It boils down to the question: will I be able to tell the difference between a contractor or cabinet saw at a hobbyist level of use? Are cabinet saws mostly just for production type work in a cabinet shop or are they more precise and better suited for a hobbyist who wants to only make a few fine pieces? Is a grizzly cabinet saw better buy than a deltaX contractor saw (they cost the same)? Right now I am leaning toward just putting about $2000 into a good cabinet saw, dado set, portable base, and tenon jig. I have the room and a 220 outlet. If you think there is a better way to go please give me your advice before I make an expensive mistake. I plan to use the saw for a lifetime and make everything from furniture to a doghouse with it, but it will only be in my spare time and weekends. I don't know if it makes a difference but I am very big on precision, I like things to fit perfect. Any advice would be appreciated. |
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