Hiya Folks,
My latest projects aren't what you'd call fine woodworking but nevertheless,
involve wood! I'm building some log furniture and am currently working on
a queen sized bed.
I've got the head board and foot board built and am getting ready to get the
rails installed. I'm planning on putting a 3" diameter x 2" high tenon on
each end of the rails and mount these into 3" diameter mortises (holes!) in
the legs. Additionally, I plan to come from the other side of the legs
with a lag bolt to tighten it all up (need to keep it so I can break it
down....so no glue). This presents a situation where the lag bolt will be
going into the end grain of the log rail. The logs are about 7" in
diameter. A previous bed I built, I used 1/2" x 6" lags and it seems to
have worked ok although it does wobble a bit with a bit of effort. I must
say, I tightened the lags up somewhat gingerly as I was afraid I'd tear out
of the end grain. So I'm wondering a couple things. A) I could drill
out a hole in the bottom of the rail and fill it with a hard maple plug (2"
diameter x 2" h) for the lag to bite into. This would present edge grain
for the lag to bite into. Will this buy me anything or is end grain
plenty strong to hold the lags? B) I plan to put longer lags in, say 8"
instead of what I did previously (6"). Will this really buy me much?
Thanks much for the help!
Cheers,
cc

Teh short answer is yes, screwing through the side grain of a plug would be
preferable to end grain. However, using a bolt (machine threads) into a
captured nut is going to allow you to really torque things down. Google "bed
bolt".

-Steve


"Cubby" wrote in message
. ..
Hiya Folks,
My latest projects aren't what you'd call fine woodworking but
nevertheless, involve wood! I'm building some log furniture and am
currently working on a queen sized bed.
I've got the head board and foot board built and am getting ready to get
the rails installed. I'm planning on putting a 3" diameter x 2" high
tenon on each end of the rails and mount these into 3" diameter mortises
(holes!) in the legs. Additionally, I plan to come from the other side
of the legs with a lag bolt to tighten it all up (need to keep it so I can
break it down....so no glue). This presents a situation where the lag
bolt will be going into the end grain of the log rail. The logs are
about 7" in diameter. A previous bed I built, I used 1/2" x 6" lags and
it seems to have worked ok although it does wobble a bit with a bit of
effort. I must say, I tightened the lags up somewhat gingerly as I was
afraid I'd tear out of the end grain. So I'm wondering a couple things.
A) I could drill out a hole in the bottom of the rail and fill it with a
hard maple plug (2" diameter x 2" h) for the lag to bite into. This would
present edge grain for the lag to bite into. Will this buy me anything
or is end grain plenty strong to hold the lags? B) I plan to put longer
lags in, say 8" instead of what I did previously (6"). Will this really
buy me much? Thanks much for the help!
Cheers,
cc




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Jan 11, 11:18 am, "Cubby" wrote:
Hiya Folks,
My latest projects aren't what you'd call fine woodworking but nevertheless,
involve wood! I'm building some log furniture and am currently working on
a queen sized bed.
I've got the head board and foot board built and am getting ready to get the
rails installed. I'm planning on putting a 3" diameter x 2" high tenon on
each end of the rails and mount these into 3" diameter mortises (holes!) in
the legs. Additionally, I plan to come from the other side of the legs
with a lag bolt to tighten it all up (need to keep it so I can break it
down....so no glue). This presents a situation where the lag bolt will be
going into the end grain of the log rail. The logs are about 7" in
diameter. A previous bed I built, I used 1/2" x 6" lags and it seems to
have worked ok although it does wobble a bit with a bit of effort. I must
say, I tightened the lags up somewhat gingerly as I was afraid I'd tear out
of the end grain. So I'm wondering a couple things. A) I could drill
out a hole in the bottom of the rail and fill it with a hard maple plug (2"
diameter x 2" h) for the lag to bite into. This would present edge grain
for the lag to bite into. Will this buy me anything or is end grain
plenty strong to hold the lags? B) I plan to put longer lags in, say 8"
instead of what I did previously (6"). Will this really buy me much?
Thanks much for the help!
Cheers,
cc

Good idea about the maple plug, as end grain will loosen up over time,
or just install a nut and washer in the hole you drill and use a bolt?
I don't think 8 will buy much over what 6 inches will, into end grain.
Also, a lot of strength is aquired by the shoulders of the tenon, and
with your using logs, it makes it tougher to get that mechanical
advantage. Tom

You should learn about bed bolts. They are built specifically for this
operation and don't depend on threads holding in the wood. It is a
fool proof mechanical solution that can be tightened up to kill all of
he wobble.

Fine Woodworking magazine had a comprehensive article on this a whle
ago.

Look here http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product...fferings_id=12
look on the more info tab for a diagram.

On Jan 11, 10:18*am, "Cubby" wrote:
Hiya Folks,
My latest projects aren't what you'd call fine woodworking but nevertheless,
involve wood! * I'm building some log furniture and am currently working on
a queen sized bed.
I've got the head board and foot board built and am getting ready to get the
rails installed. * I'm planning on putting a 3" diameter x 2" high tenon on
each end of the rails and mount these into 3" diameter mortises (holes!) in
the legs. * Additionally, I plan to come from the other side of the legs
with a lag bolt to tighten it all up (need to keep it so I can break it
down....so no glue). * This presents a situation where the lag bolt will be
going into the end grain of the log rail. * The logs are about 7" in
diameter. * A previous bed I built, I used 1/2" x 6" lags and it seems to
have worked ok although it does wobble a bit with a bit of effort. * I must
say, I tightened the lags up somewhat gingerly as I was afraid I'd tear out
of the end grain. * So I'm wondering a couple things. * A) *I could drill
out a hole in the bottom of the rail and fill it with a hard maple plug (2"
diameter x 2" h) for the lag to bite into. *This would present edge grain
for the lag to bite into. * *Will this buy me anything or is end grain
plenty strong to hold the lags? * B) I plan to put longer lags in, say 8"
instead of what I did previously (6"). * Will this really buy me much?
Thanks much for the help!
Cheers,
cc

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
...
You should learn about bed bolts. They are built specifically for this
operation and don't depend on threads holding in the wood. It is a
fool proof mechanical solution that can be tightened up to kill all of
he wobble.

Fine Woodworking magazine had a comprehensive article on this a whle
ago.

Look here http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product...fferings_id=12
look on the more info tab for a diagram.

Hiya,
I'm aware of bed bolts. Was just looking for something a little stronger.
With lags, I can go 1/2" diameter. I may combine both and use 1/2" bolts
with nut/washers though. This is in Pine so I figure I'll have to get in
pretty far to avoid any sort of pullout down the road.
Cheers,
cc

"Cubby" wrote in message
. ..
I'm aware of bed bolts. Was just looking for something a little
stronger.
With lags, I can go 1/2" diameter. I may combine both and use 1/2" bolts
with nut/washers though. This is in Pine so I figure I'll have to get in
pretty far to avoid any sort of pullout down the road.
Cheers,

While lag screws have there uses, bolting together a bed is not one of them.

What you can do is to make a tapered blind mortise in the post and in the
rail drill a 1 inch hole to accept a metal rod that has a tapped hole in it.
Now you can use a cap screw with a washer to snug the rail to the post. As
the wood shrinks you can re-snug as needed. To disassemble remove the cap
screw and tap with a mallet.

By trying to do this with a lag screw into the wood you are asking for
failure.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

OK then if you want to make the lag work better you can do a cross
dowel similar as is done with bread board ends some times. Just bore a
2" round hole from the inside face of the of log rail 1 1/2 inches
from the end. drill 3/4 of the way through the log. Then pound in a 2"
round dowel into the hole. Now when you lag in from the end you'll cut
into the side of the dowel so you don't have an end grain situation.

On Jan 11, 7:03*pm, "Cubby" wrote:
"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message

...
You should learn about bed bolts. They are built specifically for this
operation and don't depend on threads holding in the wood. It is a
fool proof mechanical solution that can be tightened up to kill all of
he wobble.

Fine Woodworking magazine had a comprehensive article on this a whle
ago.

Look herehttp://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?offerings_id=12
look on the more info tab for a diagram.

Hiya,
I'm aware of bed bolts. * Was just looking for something a little stronger.
With lags, I can go 1/2" diameter. * I may combine both and use 1/2" bolts
with nut/washers though. * This is in Pine so I figure I'll have to get in
pretty far to avoid any sort of pullout down the road.
Cheers,
cc

"
While lag screws have there uses, bolting together a bed is not one of
them.

What you can do is to make a tapered blind mortise in the post and in the
rail drill a 1 inch hole to accept a metal rod that has a tapped hole in
it.
Now you can use a cap screw with a washer to snug the rail to the post.
As
the wood shrinks you can re-snug as needed. To disassemble remove the cap
screw and tap with a mallet.

By trying to do this with a lag screw into the wood you are asking for
failure.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube,
then
they come up with this striped stuff.



I got the idea for lags from a Log furniture book I bought a few years back.
I have one bed already built this way with no additional
support for the lags (ie. inserts etc...). So far so good......5 years and
no worries. But I understand the concerns with lags....they're certainly
not
ideal.
Cheers,
cc

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
...
OK then if you want to make the lag work better you can do a cross
dowel similar as is done with bread board ends some times. Just bore a
2" round hole from the inside face of the of log rail 1 1/2 inches
from the end. drill 3/4 of the way through the log. Then pound in a 2"
round dowel into the hole. Now when you lag in from the end you'll cut
into the side of the dowel so you don't have an end grain situation.

Thanks. That's what I just finished doing as a matter of fact. About to
go bore my pilot holes and bolt it together. Far from fine furniture but
it'll be functional!
Thanks for the help.
Cheers,
cc

Cubby wrote:
"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
...
You should learn about bed bolts. They are built specifically for
this
operation and don't depend on threads holding in the wood. It is a
fool proof mechanical solution that can be tightened up to kill all
of
he wobble.

Fine Woodworking magazine had a comprehensive article on this a whle
ago.

Look here
http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product...fferings_id=12
look
on the more info tab for a diagram.

Hiya,
I'm aware of bed bolts. Was just looking for something a little
stronger. With lags, I can go 1/2" diameter. I may combine both
and
use 1/2" bolts with nut/washers though. This is in Pine so I
figure
I'll have to get in pretty far to avoid any sort of pullout down the
road.

Not sure why you'd need heavier than 3/8" but if you do, then how
about timber bolts and the appropriate sized dock washers? For
examples of each go to http://www.jamestowndistributors.com and search
on "Timber bolts" and "Dock washers"--I started to do the links but
they came out about ten lines long.


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
..

Not sure why you'd need heavier than 3/8" but if you do, then how
about timber bolts and the appropriate sized dock washers? For
examples of each go to http://www.jamestowndistributors.com and search
on "Timber bolts" and "Dock washers"--I started to do the links but
they came out about ten lines long.


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)



The biggest reason for not wanting to do a bolt/nut setup is I really didn't
want to try to mortise out a slot for the bolt
that was 4" deep (logs are about 8" diameter). Maybe I didn't mention it
earlier but the logs are mortised and tenon'ed together with
3" diameter tenons. I just need something to hold it tight as I'm not
glueing these. I've gone ahead and installed inserts of wood into the
logs so the lags will engage non-end grain. This should be plenty strong I
believe. I'm about to go out to the garage, er shop, and put it together
so we'll see.
Thanks much. I handn't heard of "timber bolts" before.
Cheers,
cc

For those interested, here's a follow-on to my original post. I ended up
putting in inserts into the bed rails and used 1/2" x 10" lags. I ended up
using the longer lags to allow for placing the inserts off the end by about
2". Anyway, I put it all together and I have to say, this is the most
solid bed I think I have ever seen. Doesn't move an iota when rocked. So
now I'm thinking of retrofitting the one I built a few years ago to be
similar. Are lag bolts ideal? No, but they worked for this application.
Thanks much for everyone who gave thier ideas.
Cheers,
cc