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#1
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Perfect Miters?
I'm gluing up some door casings prior to installation and while some
miters are perfect, some show small gaps on the visible side of the thicker portion of the profile. I'm curious as to the cause; seems like my miter saw should be cutting them perfectly. It's almost as if the ends being joined have edges slightly rounded over. Any thoughts? |
#2
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Perfect Miters?
On Sep 13, 7:10 pm, Greg Esres wrote:
I'm gluing up some door casings prior to installation and while some miters are perfect, some show small gaps on the visible side of the thicker portion of the profile. I'm curious as to the cause; seems like my miter saw should be cutting them perfectly. It's almost as if the ends being joined have edges slightly rounded over. Any thoughts? Hi Greg, I'm not sure that I can picture exactly what you are describing. But, I still might be able to help. Why do you think that your miter saw should be cutting miters perfectly? Have you gone through some extensive alignment and precision adjustment procedure or are you just trusting the scales on the machine? Here's an article that you may find helpful. It talks about the accuracy needed to produce tight miter joints. It also talks about different methods for achieving that accuracy. http://www.ts-aligner.com/accuratemiters.htm Even when machines are perfectly aligned and adjusted, it's still no guarantee that the results will be accurate. Skill is required, even when using machines. Proper technique and fixturing can make all the difference. Here is another article that you might find helpful. It talks about the sort of problems that you can encounter on a table saw but it shouldn't be a problem to relate the same sort of issues to the miter saw: http://www.ts-aligner.com/external.htm Let me know if you have any questions or need more help. Thanks, Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner |
#3
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Perfect Miters?
"Greg Esres" wrote in message ups.com... I'm gluing up some door casings prior to installation and while some miters are perfect, some show small gaps on the visible side of the thicker portion of the profile. I'm curious as to the cause; seems like my miter saw should be cutting them perfectly. It's almost as if the ends being joined have edges slightly rounded over. Any thoughts? Assuming that the saw is adjusted properly it could be that the wood is slipping slightly as you cut... some sandpaper glued to the fence and/or using the clamp that goes with the saw may solve the problem. John |
#4
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Perfect Miters?
Thanks Ed.
Why do you think that your miter saw should be cutting miters perfectly? Well, I guess "consistently" is a better word. Some of them are perfect; why aren't they all? Have you gone through some extensive alignment and precision adjustment procedure or are you just trusting the scales on the machine? I have measured the angles and they seem dead on; however, I'm not concerned about that. My doors jambs probably aren't perfectly square, so the miter angles will take some adjusting anyway. It just seems to me that if you slice two pieces of wood with the same blade, the cuts ought to join with no gap. Why not? Here's an article that you may find helpful. It talks about the accuracy needed to produce tight miter joints. It also talks about different methods for achieving that accuracy. I'll take a look, thanks. Skill is required, even when using machines. Dang! Here is another article that you might find helpful. It talks about the sort of problems that you can encounter on a table saw but it shouldn't be a problem to relate the same sort of issues to the miter saw: I've review that, too. Thank you sir! |
#5
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Perfect Miters?
Ed Bennett wrote:
Proper technique Ed, I think your website gave me the clue I needed. It mentioned possible blade warping on thin cuts. I noticed the edge of my cut that was rounded was where the blade withdrew *last* from the wood, where the damping of the blade would have been least with the thin cut. When I stopped the blade after the plunge and withdrew it while stopped, my cuts were clean again. Thanks! |
#6
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Perfect Miters?
John Grossbohlin wrote:
the wood is slipping slightly as you cut... some sandpaper glued to the fence and/or using the clamp that goes with the saw may solve the problem. I've had a hard time figuring out how to clamp stuff with this saw (DeWalt). It didn't come with a clamp and the fence isn't the ideal clamping surface. And these flat pieces of trim don't offer much to grip either. Still, I don't think it's moving. Looks like I had poor technique. Thank you |
#7
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Perfect Miters?
don't forget the most over looked thing....the pieces most be the exact same
length ie upper/lower..right side/left side "Greg Esres" wrote in message oups.com... John Grossbohlin wrote: the wood is slipping slightly as you cut... some sandpaper glued to the fence and/or using the clamp that goes with the saw may solve the problem. I've had a hard time figuring out how to clamp stuff with this saw (DeWalt). It didn't come with a clamp and the fence isn't the ideal clamping surface. And these flat pieces of trim don't offer much to grip either. Still, I don't think it's moving. Looks like I had poor technique. Thank you |
#8
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Perfect Miters?
Lee wrote:
don't forget the most over looked thing....the pieces most be the exact same length ie upper/lower..right side/left side You mean the diagonals? Yes, I noticed that because I had to adjust the miter angle of the leg, the diagonal is slightly less than the header, so the corner juts out a bit. I figure I can shave that off once the glue dries. Thanks |
#9
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Perfect Miters?
No I mean the length of the pieces you are joining together. Think of a pic
frame if the right vertical is slightly longer(or shorter) it throws off all the angles. If all is equal and your saw is tuned properly there shouldn't be a gap in any of the miter joints.....but then again it's not always a perfect world that's why they make wood filler lol "Greg Esres" wrote in message ups.com... Lee wrote: don't forget the most over looked thing....the pieces most be the exact same length ie upper/lower..right side/left side You mean the diagonals? Yes, I noticed that because I had to adjust the miter angle of the leg, the diagonal is slightly less than the header, so the corner juts out a bit. I figure I can shave that off once the glue dries. Thanks |
#10
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Perfect Miters?
Subject
The easiiest way to get perfect 45 miters is to build a sled using a factory corner from a sheet of 3/4 ply. See Fred Bingham's book, "Boat Joinery & Cabinet making", for details. Lew |
#11
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Perfect Miters?
Lee wrote:
No I mean the length of the pieces you are joining together. Think of a pic frame if the right vertical is slightly longer(or shorter) it throws off all the angles. Gotcha. Not an issue yet. I can only do one miter at a time, so there's just a leg and header. |
#12
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Perfect Miters?
Miters can lose their tight fit if you wait around to glue them.
Most chop saws that I have looked at don't hold "picture frame" miter accuracy when the table is clamped. The near side of the table climbs (squirms up) when the clamp is tightened taking the table surface out of square with the fence. That takes the cut out of glue-up precision. You can still frame a garage with it but . . . My old Porter-Cable stays pretty true and likewise the Delta version. I've seen some awful examples of this, though, with Bosch and DeWalt. The sliding miter saws son't necessarily cut so true, either. Ther're good for joist cutting, though. Tim "Greg Esres" wrote in message ups.com... I'm gluing up some door casings prior to installation and while some miters are perfect, some show small gaps on the visible side of the thicker portion of the profile. I'm curious as to the cause; seems like my miter saw should be cutting them perfectly. It's almost as if the ends being joined have edges slightly rounded over. Any thoughts? |
#13
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Perfect Miters?
Maybe I'm not understanding. Is the 45° accurate and it is just
not meeting on the finish surface? Most carpenters set a pencil or nail under the trim so that there is a slight back cut on the miter to allow the front face to meet. If the 45 is not making, you might glue a strip of sand paper to the back splash and/or table of your miter saw to prevent creep. -- ______________________________ Keep the whole world singing . . . . DanG (remove the sevens) "Greg Esres" wrote in message ups.com... I'm gluing up some door casings prior to installation and while some miters are perfect, some show small gaps on the visible side of the thicker portion of the profile. I'm curious as to the cause; seems like my miter saw should be cutting them perfectly. It's almost as if the ends being joined have edges slightly rounded over. Any thoughts? |
#14
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Perfect Miters?
DanG wrote:
Maybe I'm not understanding. Is the 45° accurate and it is just not meeting on the finish surface? Most carpenters set a pencil or nail under the trim so that there is a slight back cut on the miter to allow the front face to meet. You got it. But it was only on the thick part of the trim. Now it's perfect since I changed the cutting technique. However, I was wondering how to do the "back cut". Nice to know how professionals are doing it. Thanks |
#15
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Perfect Miters?
Dave in Houston wrote:
If they are off-the-rack, store-bought millwork then you can NEVER count on one piece being exactly the same dimension (on any plane) as the next. I bought them at a millwork shop, but yes, I've noticed that different batches seemed slightly "off" from the pieces I had. |
#16
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Perfect Miters?
Ellestad wrote:
Most chop saws that I have looked at don't hold "picture frame" miter accuracy when the table is clamped. With great foresight (i.e., laziness), my saw isn't clamped or bolted. :-) |
#17
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Perfect Miters?
Yes, I myself exhibit this kind of sloth quite often. :-)
"Greg Esres" wrote in message oups.com... Ellestad wrote: Most chop saws that I have looked at don't hold "picture frame" miter accuracy when the table is clamped. With great foresight (i.e., laziness), my saw isn't clamped or bolted. :-) |
#18
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Perfect Miters?
On Sep 13, 10:05 pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
Subject The easiiest way to get perfect 45 miters is to build a sled using a factory corner from a sheet of 3/4 ply. See Fred Bingham's book, "Boat Joinery & Cabinet making", for details. Lew People put way too much stock in books and magazine articles. Just because it's in print doesn't mean it's right. You really shouldn't trust that the unskilled minimum wage sawdust jocky at the plywood factory managed to put an accurate corner on one of the 10,000 pieces of plywood he cut that day. If the corners of plywood have any spec at all, it's probably on the order of +/- 1/8". I'll have to add this one to the "Myths and Ledgends" section of the web site. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner |
#19
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Perfect Miters?
"Ed Bennett" wrote: People put way too much stock in books and magazine articles. Just because it's in print doesn't mean it's right. MIne works quite well. You really shouldn't trust that the unskilled minimum wage sawdust jocky at the plywood factory managed to put an accurate corner on one of the 10,000 pieces of plywood he cut that day. I don't; however, I do trust the automation used to trim 4x8 sheets to size since it is not a manual labor job these days. Lew |
#20
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Perfect Miters?
On Sep 14, 2:10 pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Ed Bennett" wrote: People put way too much stock in books and magazine articles. Just because it's in print doesn't mean it's right. MIne works quite well. You really shouldn't trust that the unskilled minimum wage sawdust jocky at the plywood factory managed to put an accurate corner on one of the 10,000 pieces of plywood he cut that day. I don't; however, I do trust the automation used to trim 4x8 sheets to size since it is not a manual labor job these days. As many subfloors as I've run, I can't say I've ever seen gaps at end joints where the plywood was off square. |
#21
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Perfect Miters?
Ed Bennett wrote:
You really shouldn't trust that the unskilled minimum wage sawdust jocky at the plywood factory managed to put an accurate corner on one of the 10,000 pieces of plywood he cut that day. If the corners of plywood have any spec at all, it's probably on the order of +/- 1/8". The factory edges are not cut by some guy with a circular saw. The whole process is automated using something called a "DD Saw". Among other reasons, plywood right out of the press is still pretty hot. Chris |
#22
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Perfect Miters?
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:36:53 -0700, Ed Bennett
wrote: On Sep 13, 10:05 pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote: Subject The easiiest way to get perfect 45 miters is to build a sled using a factory corner from a sheet of 3/4 ply. See Fred Bingham's book, "Boat Joinery & Cabinet making", for details. Lew People put way too much stock in books and magazine articles. Just because it's in print doesn't mean it's right. You really shouldn't trust that the unskilled minimum wage sawdust jocky at the plywood factory managed to put an accurate corner on one of the 10,000 pieces of plywood he cut that day. If the corners of plywood have any spec at all, it's probably on the order of +/- 1/8". I'll have to add this one to the "Myths and Ledgends" section of the web site. Oh come on Ed. You make it sound like there's some kid with a skill saw that makes the plywood at the factory. The first time that plywood gets touched by a person is when you buy it. If it's a typical hobbiest shop and their square says the factory corner is off then my money is on the $10 square from the Borg being off not the ply. I do double check when it's something critical like a miter sled though. -Leuf |
#23
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Perfect Miters?
On Sep 14, 12:27 pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
The factory edges are not cut by some guy with a circular saw. The whole process is automated using something called a "DD Saw". Among other reasons, plywood right out of the press is still pretty hot. Chris Yes, yes, yes, I know. I appreciate all of the comments about guys with skill saws vs the "perfection" of automation, etc. I've seen how plywood is made. The sheets are gang ripped to width and then cross cut while in motion. The feed rate of the cross cut saw (traveling at an angle) in conjunction with the feed rate of the board determines the squareness of the cut. The factory is staffed with unskilled workers. The person overseeing the crosscutting may never have even touched a circular saw in their entire life. I'm quite sure that they care more about length and width than they do about squareness. If they track these measurements as process parameters (a big IF), then these are likely to be checked on a random audit basis with simple instruments (i.e. tape measure) by more of the same unskilled minimum wage workers. A long time ago I heard this same folklore and tried to apply it in my woodworking. "Use a factory edge as a straight edge, use a factory corner as a square, etc." I probably read it in a magazine article written by some journalist who (while pretending to be an expert) had never touched a circular saw in his life. That's when I learned not to trust the factory edges (even on furniture grade plywood). They're good enough for construction purposes (sheathing, flooring, roofing, etc.). And, there are probably a lot of people who will never notice a problem in their own work. But, they are far from "perfect" (what Lew originally said) and don't suit my needs. I also learned not to take technical adivce from journalists - a lesson that has been reinforced countless times over the years. The original poster has related that his problem was being caused by deflection of the blade when making thin cuts. I could be wrong, but I suspect that the demands of his work exceed the accuracy of factory cut edges on plywood. I'm glad he was able to find his solution in one of my articles. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner |
#24
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Perfect Miters?
On Sep 14, 12:10 pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
MIne works quite well. Your sled? I'm sure it suits your needs. I don't; however, I do trust the automation used to trim 4x8 sheets to size since it is not a manual labor job these days. That would be another topic for the "Myths and Folklore" page. Just because its automated doesn't mean its perfect or accurate. I run a shop full of automated machines and I assure you that accurate results still depend on the skill and knowledge of the people using them. I've hired people to run the exact same programs on the exact same machines with the exact same fixturing and they still manage to screw up the parts. Heck, I've even screwed up a bunch of parts over the years. The machines used to trim plywood to size may be automated but "perfect" accuracy is not automatic. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner |
#25
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Perfect Miters?
On Sep 14, 12:22 pm, Ferd Farkel wrote:
As many subfloors as I've run, I can't say I've ever seen gaps at end joints where the plywood was off square. I haven't done so many subfloors (two or three) but I've noticed the gaps in each one. Not that it matters, it's just a subfloor. I thought we were talking about woodworking with slightly higher standards. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner |
#26
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Perfect Miters?
In about forty years of doing this I don't think I've ever found a sheet of
plywood of any kind that was reference square - you're not going to cut good cabinet quality joints basing them on the origingal corners. No supplier that I have ever dealt with would ever even suggest that their plywood of any type was "joint square". I find that often the sawn edges are even wavy. The automated sawing of 4x8's at the factory isn't concerned with making the edges and corners to joint standards - it is to simply get the sawing done very fast and cheap! I agree that you might have problems with cheap squares and straight-edges. Every time I see a magazine or book showing someone laying out cabinetry cuts with a framing or rafter square I immediately know that the author either didn't know what he was talking about or he was dishonest (most framing squares need some corner peening to reasonably square them up). I have a fair amount of money in my squares and rules. Tim "Leuf" wrote in message ... On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:36:53 -0700, Ed Bennett wrote: On Sep 13, 10:05 pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote: Subject The easiiest way to get perfect 45 miters is to build a sled using a factory corner from a sheet of 3/4 ply. See Fred Bingham's book, "Boat Joinery & Cabinet making", for details. Lew People put way too much stock in books and magazine articles. Just because it's in print doesn't mean it's right. You really shouldn't trust that the unskilled minimum wage sawdust jocky at the plywood factory managed to put an accurate corner on one of the 10,000 pieces of plywood he cut that day. If the corners of plywood have any spec at all, it's probably on the order of +/- 1/8". I'll have to add this one to the "Myths and Ledgends" section of the web site. Oh come on Ed. You make it sound like there's some kid with a skill saw that makes the plywood at the factory. The first time that plywood gets touched by a person is when you buy it. If it's a typical hobbiest shop and their square says the factory corner is off then my money is on the $10 square from the Borg being off not the ply. I do double check when it's something critical like a miter sled though. -Leuf |
#27
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Perfect Miters?
"Ellestad" wrote in message news:
In about forty years of doing this I don't think I've ever found a sheet of plywood of any kind that was reference square - Hmmm ... just walked out to the shop and the first three sheets I checked had all four factory corners that were "Starret square". In my 45 years of doing this I don't find that unusual/remarkable at all ... but then I build _lots_ of cabinets out of quality hardwood plywood. Go figure ... -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 8/08/07 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#28
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Perfect Miters?
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#29
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Perfect Miters?
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#30
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Perfect Miters?
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 18:48:44 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:
In about forty years of doing this I don't think I've ever found a sheet of plywood of any kind that was reference square - Hmmm ... just walked out to the shop and the first three sheets I checked had all four factory corners that were "Starret square". In my 45 years of doing this I don't find that unusual/remarkable at all ... but then I build _lots_ of cabinets out of quality hardwood plywood. Go fig We find a few sheets of 3/4" hardwood veneer core that are not square on occasion. It does seem to be related to certain vendors which I think is related to the quality of their products. Since most of the time our builders do the purchasing we try to "steer" them to better quality material which normally means a different vendor. Mike O. |
#31
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Perfect Miters?
It must be my back luck as to typical supplies available in my area then. I
know that my experience is common with most of the collegues that I have mentioned this with over the years in my area. I do find that the short base of a machinist square is too small to reveal many of the problem pieces that I've encountered (in fact I had a problem with this on some Baltic Birch two weeks ago - and its getting to be a challenge for my old gray-beard mind). A 24 inch blade helps but . . . I've found sheets with square corners that were'nt square to each other due to swoops in between. Years ago a couple friends who worked for the Forest Products Laboratory told me that there was no particular concern on the part of industry to deliver clean, square-dressed product assuming that typical handling may likely ding the edges a little anyway. Certainly, though, as per your experience I would presume that some manufacturers, suppliers and yards do better than others. When I bought the Baltic Birch that I mentioned I asked the kid filling the order if we could find a few sheets that were "reasonably flat" with a good straight edge ot two. He said something to the effect of, "We'll see what we've got but it is what it is, you know." This yard supplies a lot of the area cabinet shops that aren't big enough to get supplier-direct purchasing. I envy your resource. Tim "Swingman" wrote in message ... "Ellestad" wrote in message news: In about forty years of doing this I don't think I've ever found a sheet of plywood of any kind that was reference square - Hmmm ... just walked out to the shop and the first three sheets I checked had all four factory corners that were "Starret square". In my 45 years of doing this I don't find that unusual/remarkable at all .... but then I build _lots_ of cabinets out of quality hardwood plywood. Go figure ... -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 8/08/07 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#32
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Perfect Miters?
"Ellestad" wrote in message
mentioned this with over the years in my area. I do find that the short base of a machinist square is too small to reveal many of the problem pieces that I've encountered Granted, that's an important point. However, the underlying point that Lew was making with his "factory plywood corner" suggestion is valid, IME. One of the best "miter jig" concepts for making frames is the one using a factory corner from a sheet of plywood and the concept of complementary angles to alternate the cutting of adjacent parts to insure 90 degree angle joins. It is not that difficult to find a corner _square enough for woodworking purposes_ on a sheet of quality plywood these days, and for miter jig purposes you generally need a relatively short distance, say 8 - 12 " on each axis, so the square you use on your actual woodworking projects is going to be your limiting factor in any event. That said, I agree that you certainly want to measure with the best available tool, and not just take it on faith, that a factory plywood corner is square enough for your purposes. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 8/08/07 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#33
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Perfect Miters?
Yes, no arguement. I guess that my main point was that I haven't had the
good fortune to find all that many good corners on the product that I've had available here - even on supposed high-grade hardwood plywood (although the price would imply - no pun - that the corners should be pretty good). One of my good friends was a furniture maker and he ran a hardwood operation along with his shop. He carried high grade hardwood plywood and Baltic Birch and I purchased wood from him from time to time. He never felt that his supplies would predictably have reliable corners and his stuff was generally better than I would get from the main dealer in my area. I really think from your experience that quality standards may vary depending on product chanels in your area. As I said before, I really do envy anyone who can count on the corners and edges of their raw materials to be square and true. Tim "Swingman" wrote in message ... "Ellestad" wrote in message mentioned this with over the years in my area. I do find that the short base of a machinist square is too small to reveal many of the problem pieces that I've encountered Granted, that's an important point. However, the underlying point that Lew was making with his "factory plywood corner" suggestion is valid, IME. One of the best "miter jig" concepts for making frames is the one using a factory corner from a sheet of plywood and the concept of complementary angles to alternate the cutting of adjacent parts to insure 90 degree angle joins. It is not that difficult to find a corner _square enough for woodworking purposes_ on a sheet of quality plywood these days, and for miter jig purposes you generally need a relatively short distance, say 8 - 12 " on each axis, so the square you use on your actual woodworking projects is going to be your limiting factor in any event. That said, I agree that you certainly want to measure with the best available tool, and not just take it on faith, that a factory plywood corner is square enough for your purposes. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 8/08/07 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#34
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Perfect Miters?
Yes, I'm sure that the quality of the edges and the accuracy of the
corners varies considerably. Not just from sheet to sheet but it's not unreasonable to believe that some facilities produce better quality than others. Maybe one factory has an OCD guy like me who checks the machinery at the beginning of every shift. Maybe another factory doesn't bother with it unless it breaks down (or needs a blade change). I strive to make recommendations that will work for anyone who applies them correctly. So, I just can't recommend trusting the accuracy of edges and corners of plywood sheets. If you can verify that the corner is square, then it certainly would work well on a sled. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner |
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