Hi,

I've have mostly power woodworking tools, but I'd like to do a few
projects with handtools.

Would either of these planes be worthwhile:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170133545391
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170133512245

They both seem like a fair price so far. There's no mention of either
being pre-war, though.

Mike

wrote in news:1185669161.029264.194650
@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

Hi,

I've have mostly power woodworking tools, but I'd like to do a few
projects with handtools.

Would either of these planes be worthwhile:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170133545391
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170133512245

They both seem like a fair price so far. There's no mention of either
being pre-war, though.

Mike



You can deal with the 'bay, or find a dealer you can trust. I do dealers
better, because the terms are fair, they know what they are selling, and I
get to inspect or send back each item. I also get a pretty quick
turnaround, without auction competition. And I pay a higher price, often.

There's a number of folks selling planes over at sawmillcreek.com, on the
neander boards, with decent reputations. At least drop by there for a
look. Or look for the contacts for Pete Neiderberger on woodcentral.com.
Or check with Pat Leach at www.supertool.com.

That having been said, I haven't bought a vintage plane in the last 6 or 8
of them. LV or LN, because I'm into the specialty range now...

Patriarch,
acknowledging the slipperiness of the slope on which we tread...

Okay, thanks for the advice.

Mike

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi,

I've have mostly power woodworking tools, but I'd like to do a few
projects with handtools.

Would either of these planes be worthwhile:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170133545391
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170133512245

They both seem like a fair price so far. There's no mention of either
being pre-war, though.

Your post got me to thinking about some Baileys that have sat on a shelf in
my shop for several years without being touched.
I have a 3, 5, 5 1/4, and a 6 in better condition that the ones in the eBay
listings; except that the 6 is missing the top part of the rear handle.

If you are interested, I could take some pictures.

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:32:41 -0700, wrote:

I've have mostly power woodworking tools, but I'd like to do a few
projects with handtools.

Would either of these planes be worthwhile:

No

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170133545391

What are you going to do with an #8 ? You certainly don't need a #8C

I've have mostly power woodworking tools,

So don't start with the biggest and heaviest of the pack!

I've got a #8. Can't remember when I last used it - probably flattening
a huge table top. I usually use my #7, because it's a really nice plane,
and I've also got a #6 which is a more convenient size for most tasks.
The #8 just doesn't get out much -- it's far too big and heavy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170133512245

No. It's probably a great plane, but it's a terrible ad. If you can't
_see_ that the sole is in decent condition, you don't buy that one, you
wait for the next one where you can see it.

There's no mention of either being pre-war, though.

They're both clearly pre-war. Read "Patrick's Blood and Gore" at
supertool.com and any "Stanley plane dating flowchart" on the web.
They'll give you a good start.

I'd suggest a starter set of:

#5 as a main bench plane,

#4 1/2 set up as a smoother (fine mouth, squared iron),

rough old junkyard #4 as a scrub (crowned iron, filed wide-open
mouth, no more than $5 from the local dog pound) Or else a wooden horned
scrub plane (if you can get these outside Europe)

Sprinkle with a good quality modern iron (not Stanley!) if you can't
find original Sweethearts.

Also a brand new Lee Valley low-angle adjustable mouth block plane.
Stanley blocks are nothing like as good, even the best.

[..snip...]

There's a number of folks selling planes over at sawmillcreek.com, on the
neander boards, with decent reputations. At least drop by there for a
look.

[...snip...]
Correction ... www.sawmillcreek.org

On Aug 3, 4:21 pm, "Michael Faurot"
wrote:

If you don't have a lot of money or not sure if this is something
you really want to get involved in, buy the following two types of
planes new:

1) Get something like a #3 bench plane. Woodcraft has a Groz[1]
which goes for about $30. Or go to Amazon and get an Anant #3[2],
also for about $30. I have the #3 Groz.

2) Get some type of variant of the #9-1/2 block plane with
adjustable mouth. Woodcraft has the Groz[3] variant for about $28 and
you can get the Stanley[4] for about $37 online. I got my Stanley
from the local Lowe's, and it was only about $30 (plus tax).

For about the same money you can buy old Stanleys on eBay. The old
Stanleys are better than the new ones.

R

Thanks guys.

Mike

On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:21:05 -0500, "Michael Faurot"
wrote:

1) Get something like a #3 bench plane. Woodcraft has a Groz[1]
which goes for about $30. Or go to Amazon and get an Anant #3[2],
also for about $30. I have the #3 Groz.

Or just take 3 $10 bills and set fire to them

On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 19:57:30 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:


Or just take 3 $10 bills and set fire to them


Funny! But true...

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

On Jul 28, 8:32 pm, wrote:
Hi,

I've have mostly power woodworking tools, but I'd like to do a few
projects with handtools.

Would either of these planes be worthwhile:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170133545391

Priced a bit high, maybe because of the corrugated sole.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170133512245

More reasonably priced, but no lateral lever, essential on a
smoother if you intend to use it as a finishing tool.

Neither plane has a fore-aft frog adjuster screw. It'll take a while
to
get the throat set fine. Once you're there, don't change it. Ever.

They both seem like a fair price so far. There's no mention of either
being pre-war, though.

Shop flea markets, and you can get a #8 smooth sole for $30, a #3
or #4 smoother for $15, tops. You can inspect them first hand. Ebay
is a crapshoot.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:21:05 -0500, "Michael Faurot"
wrote:

1) Get something like a #3 bench plane. Woodcraft has a Groz[1]
which goes for about $30. Or go to Amazon and get an Anant #3[2],
also for about $30. I have the #3 Groz.

Or just take 3 $10 bills and set fire to them

Or just send them to me. I find your reaction puzzling, based
on my own experiences with these planes. I own both Lee Valley/Veritas
planes and these Groz planes. While the Groz planes are not as
good as the ones from Veritas, they're good enough. I can do real
work with them, more so than I could with the charred remains of
$30 worth of paper money. Properly tuned and sharpened, the Groz
planes can produce paper thin shavings. Yes, they do require some
work to get properly tuned and sharpened, before they're going to
be ready to go to work, but that'll be true for anything in this
price range.

--

If you want to reply via email, change the obvious words to numbers and
remove ".invalid".

RicodJour wrote:

For about the same money you can buy old Stanleys on eBay. The old
Stanleys are better than the new ones.

The problem with that is you usually can't just purchase stuff on
eBay. Instead there's the whole issue of dealing with auctions,
bidding, keeping track of the auction, when you've been out bid,
submitting a new bid, etc. Then there's the issue of having to
trust that the person selling the item is actually going to deliver
it to you. If you don't really need what you're bidding on, have
the time to play the whole bidding game, and have no problem trusting
whomever is selling the item, I suppose that's fine and you can
actually get a decent deal. For myself, I'd rather be out in the
shop making saw dust than trying to deal with all the vagaries of
eBay auctions.

Flea markets, on the other hand, do seem to be a good source of old
planes and if I see something I like, I can in fact "just buy it".
I also like the fact that I can actually look at and properly inspect
what's being offered for sale. I trust what I can see with my eyes
and feel with my hands more than I do a picture on a web site.

--

If you want to reply via email, change the obvious words to numbers and
remove ".invalid".

"Father Haskell" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 28, 8:32 pm, wrote:
Hi,

I've have mostly power woodworking tools, but I'd like to do a few
projects with handtools.

Would either of these planes be worthwhile:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170133545391

Priced a bit high, maybe because of the corrugated sole.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170133512245

More reasonably priced, but no lateral lever, essential on a
smoother if you intend to use it as a finishing tool.

Neither plane has a fore-aft frog adjuster screw. It'll take a while
to
get the throat set fine. Once you're there, don't change it. Ever.

They both seem like a fair price so far. There's no mention of either
being pre-war, though.

Shop flea markets, and you can get a #8 smooth sole for $30, a #3
or #4 smoother for $15, tops. You can inspect them first hand. Ebay
is a crapshoot.


I have a #5 Stanley that has no frog adjuster screw. It is a #7 and was made
around 1890. It is a pleasant plane to use and I promise you I would
require more than $30 for it. It is not for sale and is in a case in my
office. Some of the planes your kibitzing about may very well be good oldies
and worth the money. If you see a no. 8 for $30, jump on it. I've never seen
a bargain plane at a flea market, but I've had good luck with E-bay planes.
I have a #3, #5 1/2 (a favorite), a #5, #6, 604, 605, and a 607. They are
all E-bay planes and all are users. :-)

"Michael Faurot" wrote in news:iqqfo4-
:

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:21:05 -0500, "Michael Faurot"
wrote:

1) Get something like a #3 bench plane. Woodcraft has a Groz[1]
which goes for about $30. Or go to Amazon and get an Anant #3[2],
also for about $30. I have the #3 Groz.

Or just take 3 $10 bills and set fire to them

Or just send them to me. I find your reaction puzzling, based
on my own experiences with these planes. I own both Lee Valley/Veritas
planes and these Groz planes. While the Groz planes are not as
good as the ones from Veritas, they're good enough. I can do real
work with them, more so than I could with the charred remains of
$30 worth of paper money. Properly tuned and sharpened, the Groz
planes can produce paper thin shavings. Yes, they do require some
work to get properly tuned and sharpened, before they're going to
be ready to go to work, but that'll be true for anything in this
price range.


Maybe they've gotten better. A couple of years ago, dug through all of the
ones that the local Rockler had gotten, trying to find one that fit the
definition of a kit. A total waste of time.

Life's too short.

Patriarch

On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 22:20:16 -0500, "Michael Faurot"
wrote:

Flea markets, on the other hand, do seem to be a good source of old
planes and if I see something I like, I can in fact "just buy it".
I also like the fact that I can actually look at and properly inspect
what's being offered for sale. I trust what I can see with my eyes
and feel with my hands more than I do a picture on a web site.

That's if you still have that opportunity in your area.

In my area, flea markets have gone way downhill, to the point of being
useless. Need a Harley shirt? Fake designer purse? The flea market
is the place to go! The likelyhood of being busted for selling
knock-offs is way less in a parking lot than on-line. For reputable
sellers, with the most basic computer knowledge, eBay has changed the
business forever. The non-computer literate vendors often get cleaned
out by those who are, and in turn the tools get sold on-line.

eBay has revolutionized the antique and flea business model to the
point that more and more vendors are unwilling to go sit there all
weekend and quibble over nickels. In some cases, eBay put on live
seminars and provided mentors to get these folks selling. I've
been to "eBay University" via Interbike (bicycle industry), and the
instructor-led courses are very well done.

I used to like flea markets as well, but for at least 3-4 years my
local markets totally suck. The same goes for my local pawn shops.

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

Michael Faurot wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

For about the same money you can buy old Stanleys on eBay. The old
Stanleys are better than the new ones.

The problem with that is you usually can't just purchase stuff on
eBay. Instead there's the whole issue of dealing with auctions,
bidding, keeping track of the auction, when you've been out bid,
submitting a new bid, etc. Then there's the issue of having to
trust that the person selling the item is actually going to deliver
it to you. If you don't really need what you're bidding on, have
the time to play the whole bidding game, and have no problem trusting
whomever is selling the item, I suppose that's fine and you can
actually get a decent deal. For myself, I'd rather be out in the
shop making saw dust than trying to deal with all the vagaries of
eBay auctions.
....

Other than the time and critical need thing, I've not found it a problem
in general (eBay auction mecahnics, that is).

The trust issue I've not had a problem with -- I do look to see the
seller's ratings and avoid those w/ any significant number of complaints
at all -- for a suitable definition of "significant" that is somewhat
variable.

The inspection thing can be a hassle if there's a chance of an item
being visually ok but not really ok, granted. I tend to avoid those
items and planes or other vintage tools would be an area of less than
ideal "shopping experience". I've bought a couple of Stanley/Bailey's
that way (nothing exotic) and been satisfied. But, I have been willing
to let several go by that auctions got out of hand on, too.

If you really need something, flea markets have problems as well as
there's no guarantee of them having what you're looking for at any given
time unless you happen to be in the one or two places left that have a
specific dealer -- where I am there's _no_ chance of finding anything
useful as another poster has said -- I might as well go to the guy in
the tractor-trailer parking lot tool sale...

--

On Aug 4, 11:20 pm, "Michael Faurot"
wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

For about the same money you can buy old Stanleys on eBay. The old
Stanleys are better than the new ones.

The problem with that is you usually can't just purchase stuff on
eBay.

Yes you can. There are eBay stores and Buy It Now auctions that let
you buy the item immediately.

Instead there's the whole issue of dealing with auctions,
bidding, keeping track of the auction, when you've been out bid,
submitting a new bid, etc.

I can locate a plane far more quickly on eBay than making the rounds
of flea markets and garage sales. eBay or any one of a number of web
sites or programs can keep track of the auctions for you, notify you
if you've been outbid, and submit bids for you at a pre-designated
time.

Then there's the issue of having to
trust that the person selling the item is actually going to deliver
it to you.

Feedback. If someone has a 99.8% positive feedback rating and a
couple of hundred transactions or more, it's extremely unlikely that
they're going to screw you. If you buy from a seller that deals in
tools and planes, then they'll know what they have and its condition
and list it accordingly. If the seller doesn't know tools at all,
maybe even misspells or misnames the item, you'd probably spend less
but it's more of a risk.

If you don't really need what you're bidding on, have
the time to play the whole bidding game, and have no problem trusting
whomever is selling the item, I suppose that's fine and you can
actually get a decent deal. For myself, I'd rather be out in the
shop making saw dust than trying to deal with all the vagaries of
eBay auctions.

If you really don't need what you're bidding on than it's really no
different than killing some time watching TV and ordering a pizza.

Flea markets, on the other hand, do seem to be a good source of old
planes and if I see something I like, I can in fact "just buy it".
I also like the fact that I can actually look at and properly inspect
what's being offered for sale. I trust what I can see with my eyes
and feel with my hands more than I do a picture on a web site.

I understand the sentiment. You'll never be 100% sure until you get
your hands on it. As in most things in life, there are no guarantees,
and 95% sure at a lower price with little effort is good enough. YMMV

R

On Aug 4, 11:27 pm, "Lowell Holmes" wrote:
"Father Haskell" wrote in message

ups.com...



On Jul 28, 8:32 pm, wrote:
Hi,

I've have mostly power woodworking tools, but I'd like to do a few
projects with handtools.

Would either of these planes be worthwhile:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170133545391

Priced a bit high, maybe because of the corrugated sole.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170133512245

More reasonably priced, but no lateral lever, essential on a
smoother if you intend to use it as a finishing tool.

Neither plane has a fore-aft frog adjuster screw. It'll take a while
to
get the throat set fine. Once you're there, don't change it. Ever.

They both seem like a fair price so far. There's no mention of either
being pre-war, though.

Shop flea markets, and you can get a #8 smooth sole for $30, a #3
or #4 smoother for $15, tops. You can inspect them first hand. Ebay
is a crapshoot.

I have a #5 Stanley that has no frog adjuster screw. It is a #7 and was made
around 1890. It is a pleasant plane to use and I promise you I would
require more than $30 for it. It is not for sale and is in a case in my
office. Some of the planes your kibitzing about may very well be good oldies
and worth the money. If you see a no. 8 for $30, jump on it. I've never seen
a bargain plane at a flea market, but I've had good luck with E-bay planes.
I have a #3, #5 1/2 (a favorite), a #5, #6, 604, 605, and a 607. They are
all E-bay planes and all are users. :-)

My two most used planes are a patent 1905 #5, no frog adjuster screw,
and
a VERY worn looking patent 1913 #18 knuckle cap block. The #18, I
paid $3.00 for at a flea market in 1978. The 5, I was given.

What did you pay for the Bedrocks?

On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 13:20:15 -0700, Father Haskell
wrote:



My two most used planes are a patent 1905 #5, no frog adjuster screw,
and
a VERY worn looking patent 1913 #18 knuckle cap block. The #18, I
paid $3.00 for at a flea market in 1978. The 5, I was given.

What's a #18? When I Google it, all I get are bevel gauges.

---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------

"Father Haskell" wrote in message
ups.com...
snip

On Jul 28, 8:32 pm, wrote:
Hi,

My two most used planes are a patent 1905 #5, no frog adjuster screw,
and
a VERY worn looking patent 1913 #18 knuckle cap block. The #18, I
paid $3.00 for at a flea market in 1978. The 5, I was given.

What did you pay for the Bedrocks?

Many times the amount you paid for the # 18.

I don't know what numbers they are, maybe a 9, but I have some knuckle cap
block planes I never use. I don't have much regard for them. The old 60 1/2
planes are good to go most of the time.

The Bedrocks are high dollar planes and on top of that, I added Hock irons
with Clifton breakers. These planes are treasured and they certainly do what
they are called upon to do. I don't apologize for having them.

My issue with your earlier comments is that the tools I've seen at flea
markets have mostly been junk, certainly not users. I would rather make
things from wood than fiddle with junk tools. I think that if you find a #8
for $30, it is probably junk or the seller doesn't know the value of the
tool. The few flea market tools that I would be interested in have been
grossly over priced.

But, the great thing about wood working is that we can make what we want out
of the wood we want, finish it like we want to, and we can use the tools we
want to use.

If you like inexpensive flea market tools, more power to you. :-)

On Aug 5, 5:40 pm, B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 13:20:15 -0700, Father Haskell

wrote:

My two most used planes are a patent 1905 #5, no frog adjuster screw,
and
a VERY worn looking patent 1913 #18 knuckle cap block. The #18, I
paid $3.00 for at a flea market in 1978. The 5, I was given.

What's a #18? When I Google it, all I get are bevel gauges.

Block plane. Cap was built in a very cool 2 piece "hinge" design
that snaps closed, allowing fast iron installation and removal.

On Aug 5, 6:50 pm, "Lowell Holmes" wrote:
"Father Haskell" wrote in message

ups.com...

snip

On Jul 28, 8:32 pm, wrote:
Hi,

My two most used planes are a patent 1905 #5, no frog adjuster screw,
and
a VERY worn looking patent 1913 #18 knuckle cap block. The #18, I
paid $3.00 for at a flea market in 1978. The 5, I was given.

What did you pay for the Bedrocks?

Many times the amount you paid for the # 18.

I don't know what numbers they are, maybe a 9, but I have some knuckle cap
block planes I never use. I don't have much regard for them. The old 60 1/2
planes are good to go most of the time.

My 18 required nothing more than derusting, oiling, and sharpening,
and
it was back in working order. Trickiest part was adjusting the cap
screw
so it wouldn't pop open, but it's been a great user since. OTOH, I
have a
couple of Sargent knuckle planes that are real junk, hand injuries
waiting
to bite. Uglier than an Irish hangover, too.

The Bedrocks are high dollar planes and on top of that, I added Hock irons
with Clifton breakers. These planes are treasured and they certainly do what
they are called upon to do. I don't apologize for having them.

Get a couple of Norris smoothers, and your life will be complete.

My issue with your earlier comments is that the tools I've seen at flea
markets have mostly been junk, certainly not users. I would rather make
things from wood than fiddle with junk tools. I think that if you find a #8
for $30, it is probably junk or the seller doesn't know the value of the
tool. The few flea market tools that I would be interested in have been
grossly over priced.

$25 for my 1910 #6, down from $30.

I've walked away from a few. The intact, restorable ones are fun to
take
from rust to shiny hand scraped, flat to within 0.000000001 micron,
gems.

But, the great thing about wood working is that we can make what we want out
of the wood we want, finish it like we want to, and we can use the tools we
want to use.

If you like inexpensive flea market tools, more power to you. :-)

It's an excuse to get out and exercise.

"Father Haskell" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 5, 6:50 pm, "Lowell Holmes" wrote:
"Father Haskell" wrote in message

ups.com...

snip

On Jul 28, 8:32 pm, wrote:
Hi,

My two most used planes are a patent 1905 #5, no frog adjuster screw,
and
a VERY worn looking patent 1913 #18 knuckle cap block. The #18, I
paid $3.00 for at a flea market in 1978. The 5, I was given.

What did you pay for the Bedrocks?

Many times the amount you paid for the # 18.

I don't know what numbers they are, maybe a 9, but I have some knuckle
cap
block planes I never use. I don't have much regard for them. The old 60
1/2
planes are good to go most of the time.

My 18 required nothing more than derusting, oiling, and sharpening,
and
it was back in working order. Trickiest part was adjusting the cap
screw
so it wouldn't pop open, but it's been a great user since. OTOH, I
have a
couple of Sargent knuckle planes that are real junk, hand injuries
waiting
to bite. Uglier than an Irish hangover, too.

The Bedrocks are high dollar planes and on top of that, I added Hock
irons
with Clifton breakers. These planes are treasured and they certainly do
what
they are called upon to do. I don't apologize for having them.

Get a couple of Norris smoothers, and your life will be complete.

My issue with your earlier comments is that the tools I've seen at flea
markets have mostly been junk, certainly not users. I would rather make
things from wood than fiddle with junk tools. I think that if you find a
#8
for $30, it is probably junk or the seller doesn't know the value of the
tool. The few flea market tools that I would be interested in have been
grossly over priced.

$25 for my 1910 #6, down from $30.

I've walked away from a few. The intact, restorable ones are fun to
take
from rust to shiny hand scraped, flat to within 0.000000001 micron,
gems.

But, the great thing about wood working is that we can make what we want
out
of the wood we want, finish it like we want to, and we can use the tools
we
want to use.

If you like inexpensive flea market tools, more power to you. :-)

It's an excuse to get out and exercise.

I think we are in agreement! :-)