How hard is this finish compared to just a straight polyurethane? I
love this stuff and I'm using it on my latest project but I'm not sure
if I need a topcoat of straight poly to enhance durability (it's a
bench that will have bags and what not placed on it)

"damian penney" wrote in message
ups.com...
How hard is this finish compared to just a straight polyurethane? I
love this stuff and I'm using it on my latest project but I'm not sure
if I need a topcoat of straight poly to enhance durability (it's a
bench that will have bags and what not placed on it)

Certainly it is softer than poly.
Just curious why you love it, and why you would put it under poly.

On May 14, 12:53 pm, "Toller" wrote:
"damian penney" wrote in message

ups.com... How hard is this finish compared to just a straight polyurethane? I
love this stuff and I'm using it on my latest project but I'm not sure
if I need a topcoat of straight poly to enhance durability (it's a
bench that will have bags and what not placed on it)

Certainly it is softer than poly.
Just curious why you love it, and why you would put it under poly.

Good question It's pretty much the only finish I've used and has
given me great results each time I've used it. It enhances the color
of the wood, makes it feel silky smooth and gives it a lot of depth. I
figured just using straight poly wouldn't pop the grain of the walnut
& birdseye maple as much as first using the oil/poly mix and then
using a protective coat of poly. Bad idea?

"damian penney" wrote in message
ups.com...
On May 14, 12:53 pm, "Toller" wrote:
"damian penney" wrote in message

ups.com... How hard is
this finish compared to just a straight polyurethane? I
love this stuff and I'm using it on my latest project but I'm not sure
if I need a topcoat of straight poly to enhance durability (it's a
bench that will have bags and what not placed on it)

Certainly it is softer than poly.
Just curious why you love it, and why you would put it under poly.

Good question It's pretty much the only finish I've used and has
given me great results each time I've used it. It enhances the color
of the wood, makes it feel silky smooth and gives it a lot of depth. I
figured just using straight poly wouldn't pop the grain of the walnut
& birdseye maple as much as first using the oil/poly mix and then
using a protective coat of poly. Bad idea?

Yes.
Poly/oil leaves a soft film; which you probably don't want under poly.
On some woods (butternut for instance) I use Linseed Oil under poly. Since
oil doesn't leave any film, it doesn't do any harm.

Walnut would probably be a bit darker with oil then poly, but I doubt you
would see any difference from just poly on maple.

"damian penney" wrote in message
How hard is this finish compared to just a straight polyurethane?

No comparison, IME ... it is a rather soft finish, even with many built up
layers, and not all that durable.

I love this stuff and I'm using it on my latest project but I'm not sure
if I need a topcoat of straight poly to enhance durability (it's a
bench that will have bags and what not placed on it)

I also love it, and it is generally my first choice on things of which I am
most proud. Those pieces that deserve the kind of care that it will take in
the future to keep the luster and finish up to par.

It is that kind of finish, relatively soft, not very durable, but one worthy
of a great deal of respect to my estimation, and not something I would want
to put a layer of straight poly on, although poly is one of the ingredients
of the finish.

That said, I've often wondered what doing that would result in (maybe even
shellac instead of poly), but thus far have resisted the temptation for the
above reasons, so let us know how it turns out if you do decide to go that
route.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Toller" wrote in message
news

"damian penney" wrote in message
ups.com...
On May 14, 12:53 pm, "Toller" wrote:
"damian penney" wrote in message

ups.com... How hard
is this finish compared to just a straight polyurethane? I
love this stuff and I'm using it on my latest project but I'm not sure
if I need a topcoat of straight poly to enhance durability (it's a
bench that will have bags and what not placed on it)

Certainly it is softer than poly.
Just curious why you love it, and why you would put it under poly.

Good question It's pretty much the only finish I've used and has
given me great results each time I've used it. It enhances the color
of the wood, makes it feel silky smooth and gives it a lot of depth. I
figured just using straight poly wouldn't pop the grain of the walnut
& birdseye maple as much as first using the oil/poly mix and then
using a protective coat of poly. Bad idea?

Yes.
Poly/oil leaves a soft film; which you probably don't want under poly.
On some woods (butternut for instance) I use Linseed Oil under poly.
Since oil doesn't leave any film, it doesn't do any harm.

Walnut would probably be a bit darker with oil then poly, but I doubt you
would see any difference from just poly on maple.


Urethane is a resin. It is mixed with an oil vehicle in greater or lesser
proportions to harden the finish. If Sam's is a long-oil varnish, which the
advertising seems to indicate, it will give a more flexible, though softer
film than a short-oil/urethane varnish. You can put oils over oils with
impunity, though they want a mechanical bond you create with sanding.

Since oil is the vehicle in any oil-based (poly)urethane, it's only a matter
of oil color which would make a difference in the tone of your walnut.
Minwax seems to be soy, which is lighter than linseed.

On May 14, 2:35 pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"damian penney" wrote in message
How hard is this finish compared to just a straight polyurethane?

No comparison, IME ... it is a rather soft finish, even with many built up
layers, and not all that durable.

I love this stuff and I'm using it on my latest project but I'm not sure
if I need a topcoat of straight poly to enhance durability (it's a
bench that will have bags and what not placed on it)

I also love it, and it is generally my first choice on things of which I am
most proud. Those pieces that deserve the kind of care that it will take in
the future to keep the luster and finish up to par.

It is that kind of finish, relatively soft, not very durable, but one worthy
of a great deal of respect to my estimation, and not something I would want
to put a layer of straight poly on, although poly is one of the ingredients
of the finish.

That said, I've often wondered what doing that would result in (maybe even
shellac instead of poly), but thus far have resisted the temptation for the
above reasons, so let us know how it turns out if you do decide to go that
route.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Curses I was hoping not to be a guinea pig...Time to do some
tests... Is there anything else anyone could recommend to promote
durability while retaining the good looks and silky smooth feel?

On May 14, 4:36 pm, damian penney wrote:
On May 14, 2:35 pm, "Swingman" wrote:



"damian penney" wrote in message
How hard is this finish compared to just a straight polyurethane?

No comparison, IME ... it is a rather soft finish, even with many built up
layers, and not all that durable.

I love this stuff and I'm using it on my latest project but I'm not sure
if I need a topcoat of straight poly to enhance durability (it's a
bench that will have bags and what not placed on it)

I also love it, and it is generally my first choice on things of which I am
most proud. Those pieces that deserve the kind of care that it will take in
the future to keep the luster and finish up to par.

It is that kind of finish, relatively soft, not very durable, but one worthy
of a great deal of respect to my estimation, and not something I would want
to put a layer of straight poly on, although poly is one of the ingredients
of the finish.

That said, I've often wondered what doing that would result in (maybe even
shellac instead of poly), but thus far have resisted the temptation for the
above reasons, so let us know how it turns out if you do decide to go that
route.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Curses I was hoping not to be a guinea pig...Time to do some
tests... Is there anything else anyone could recommend to promote
durability while retaining the good looks and silky smooth feel?


Here are some pics of the project so far

http://www.penney.org/benchgallery3/index.htm (if anything doesn't
work on this page please let me know)

Curses I was hoping not to be a guinea pig...Time to do some
tests... Is there anything else anyone could recommend to promote
durability while retaining the good looks and silky smooth feel?

Sure - I'd probably vote for some type of varnish or polyurethane
that's well-rubbed with 0000 steel wool. Or wet-sanded with 600 grit
wet-dry paper.
The project looks great so far!
Andy

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"George" wrote in message

Urethane is a resin. It is mixed with an oil vehicle in greater or
lesser
proportions to harden the finish. If Sam's is a long-oil varnish, which
the
advertising seems to indicate, it will give a more flexible, though
softer
film than a short-oil/urethane varnish. You can put oils over oils with
impunity, though they want a mechanical bond you create with sanding.

Since oil is the vehicle in any oil-based (poly)urethane, it's only a
matter
of oil color which would make a difference in the tone of your walnut.
Minwax seems to be soy, which is lighter than linseed.

George, what are your thoughts on using shellac on a well cured finish of
the Sam Maloof type?

I've heard both yes and no, but have never personally tried it.

Thanks ..

Why would you want to? What effect are you trying to obtain?

On Mon, 14 May 2007 23:08:09 GMT, "George" wrote:


Since oil is the vehicle in any oil-based (poly)urethane, it's only a matter
of oil color which would make a difference in the tone of your walnut.
Minwax seems to be soy, which is lighter than linseed.

Minwax is soy? Could be... The current gloss poly is pretty clear.

Varathane advertises that they use soy and are clearer than the rest.
I always thought they meant Minwax, but I've been wrong before.

"George" wrote in message

Urethane is a resin. It is mixed with an oil vehicle in greater or lesser
proportions to harden the finish. If Sam's is a long-oil varnish, which
the
advertising seems to indicate, it will give a more flexible, though softer
film than a short-oil/urethane varnish. You can put oils over oils with
impunity, though they want a mechanical bond you create with sanding.

Since oil is the vehicle in any oil-based (poly)urethane, it's only a
matter
of oil color which would make a difference in the tone of your walnut.
Minwax seems to be soy, which is lighter than linseed.

George, what are your thoughts on using shellac on a well cured finish of
the Sam Maloof type?

I've heard both yes and no, but have never personally tried it.

Thanks ..


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On May 14, 7:26 pm, "Swingman" wrote:
"Toller" wrote in message
Why would you want to? What effect are you trying to obtain?

Why, indeed ... re-read the original post.

This particular finishing method/technique imparts a unique luster/patina to
the wood that, thus far in my experience, can only be obtained by
handrubbing the oil/poly finish with loving care, then following up with the
oil/poly/wax mixture ... probably one of the reasons why Sam chose to use
it so often.

Keeping that fresh "hand rubbed" look is a "once a week for a month, once a
month for a year, once a year forever" proposition.

Despite the fact that the finish should match the intended use, vis a vis
durability, is it any wonder that someone would reasonably want to at least
explore the possibilities of a seal coat that keep the look, but result in a
bit more durability/less work?

Count me, as well as Damian, in that category ...

As I said, I have historically resisted the temptation for reasons already
stated, but wonder nonetheless.

Maybe it's time to do a little experimentation .. right, Damian?

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Exactly I have a piece in the shop right now with it's first test
coat of poly. I'll keep you posted

"Toller" wrote in message

Why would you want to? What effect are you trying to obtain?

Why, indeed ... re-read the original post.

This particular finishing method/technique imparts a unique luster/patina to
the wood that, thus far in my experience, can only be obtained by
handrubbing the oil/poly finish with loving care, then following up with the
oil/poly/wax mixture ... probably one of the reasons why Sam chose to use
it so often.

Keeping that fresh "hand rubbed" look is a "once a week for a month, once a
month for a year, once a year forever" proposition.

Despite the fact that the finish should match the intended use, vis a vis
durability, is it any wonder that someone would reasonably want to at least
explore the possibilities of a seal coat that keep the look, but result in a
bit more durability/less work?

Count me, as well as Damian, in that category ...

As I said, I have historically resisted the temptation for reasons already
stated, but wonder nonetheless.

Maybe it's time to do a little experimentation .. right, Damian?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"Toller" wrote in message

Why would you want to? What effect are you trying to obtain?

Why, indeed ... re-read the original post.

This particular finishing method/technique imparts a unique luster/patina
to
the wood that, thus far in my experience, can only be obtained by
handrubbing the oil/poly finish with loving care, then following up with
the
oil/poly/wax mixture ... probably one of the reasons why Sam chose to use
it so often.

Not after you put poly on top of it!

On May 14, 8:00 pm, "Swingman" wrote:

George, what are your thoughts on using shellac on a well cured finish of the Sam Maloof type?

I've heard both yes and no, but have never personally tried it.

Are you now talking about the original he uses on the chairs? This is
the stuff with wax, or are you talking about his long oil line?

I'd bet on the long oil there would be no problems. But if you did
the one-two punch and put the beeswax stuff on top as additional
finish, that would be something I wouldn't be a project on.

I'd bet that the key is how much beeswax there actually is in the
product. The beeswax mix seems to stay pretty soft, making me thing
that there is plenty in it to do some damage to a subsequent finishing
attempt.

I refinished a table top that had candle wax dripped on it, and
cleaned it with naptha. I could still see the wax, but not much. I
brused some blond dewaxed on it and it held on. I was never sure
though.. not 100% anyway as to whether the shellac just "bridged" the
droplets or if it actually adhered.

It seemed to adhere, and the finish that went over it went on fine as
well. But I would sure go the route you guys are though, and try it
out first on a piece of similar wood.

Robert

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
George, what are your thoughts on using shellac on a well cured finish of
the Sam Maloof type?

I've heard both yes and no, but have never personally tried it.


I don't use it on things subject to a lot of knocks. Lots of turnings,
shelves, things like that, but nothing big. Not sure why it wouldn't do, I
just don't.

You might run into a problem with adhesion if there's a full surface finish
already.

On May 15, 2:55 am, "George" wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message

...

George, what are your thoughts on using shellac on a well cured finish of
the Sam Maloof type?

I've heard both yes and no, but have never personally tried it.

I don't use it on things subject to a lot of knocks. Lots of turnings,
shelves, things like that, but nothing big. Not sure why it wouldn't do, I
just don't.

You might run into a problem with adhesion if there's a full surface finish
already.

Someone over on the FineWoodworking boards brought up the point that
Maloof uses this finish on his chairs which I'd imagine would get
about as much abuse as I expect this bench to get (i.e sat on every
now and then and bags placed on) so perhaps the finish would be fine
as it stands. Thoughts?

wrote in message

Are you now talking about the original he uses on the chairs? This is
the stuff with wax, or are you talking about his long oil line?

The original is simply an oil/poly mixture, hand rubbed with multiple coats.

The oil/poly/wax mixture is considered an extra, final step (or an ongoing
future application to refresh the finish), which would not be necessary if a
seal coat, like shellac, could be applied.

I've never had the need to apply a seal coat on top of the oil/poly finish
(and it may never even come up), but have always been curious as to whether
it would work?

That's the question.

I'd bet on the long oil there would be no problems. But if you did
the one-two punch and put the beeswax stuff on top as additional
finish, that would be something I wouldn't be a project on.

I'd bet that the key is how much beeswax there actually is in the
product. The beeswax mix seems to stay pretty soft, making me thing
that there is plenty in it to do some damage to a subsequent finishing
attempt.

I would suspect that is the case also ... but that step could be left out
with no detriment to the oil/poly finish.


I refinished a table top that had candle wax dripped on it, and
cleaned it with naptha. I could still see the wax, but not much. I
brused some blond dewaxed on it and it held on. I was never sure
though.. not 100% anyway as to whether the shellac just "bridged" the
droplets or if it actually adhered.

It seemed to adhere, and the finish that went over it went on fine as
well. But I would sure go the route you guys are though, and try it
out first on a piece of similar wood.

That's certainly the prudent way to find out. I have never had the
opportunity to find out, but, it would nice to know if the need arose.

Thanks, Robert.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On May 15, 8:23 am, "Swingman" wrote:
"damian penney" wrote in message
Someone over on the FineWoodworking boards brought up the point that
Maloof uses this finish on his chairs which I'd imagine would get
about as much abuse as I expect this bench to get (i.e sat on every
now and then and bags placed on) so perhaps the finish would be fine
as it stands. Thoughts?

I've used it (either oil/poly, or the Sam Maloof canned) extensively on
tables (end/hall) that don't get much activity, which have all held up fine
for a number of years. I have also used it on two coffee tables, both of
which have been used extensively and the finish is holding up well after
three or four years use.

In addition, I recently applied a Sam Maloof finish to a hope chest that
sits at the end of a bed, gets occasional use as bench, with shopping bags,
suitcases, etc., injudiciously applied ... while it is still too early to
tell, so far so good.

When I build a piece with this finish for a client, I usually give them a
bottle of the oil/poly/wax mixture and tell them to apply it whenever they
feel the finish needs to be "refreshed", about every year or so.

Being that simple to maintain, my feeling is that you'll be fine.

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Now that's what I like to hear. Think I'll skip that poly coat after
all and leave it as is. How many coats of the oil/poly do you
typically use (and thanks to everyone for all the feedback, much
appreciated)

"damian penney" wrote in message

Someone over on the FineWoodworking boards brought up the point that
Maloof uses this finish on his chairs which I'd imagine would get
about as much abuse as I expect this bench to get (i.e sat on every
now and then and bags placed on) so perhaps the finish would be fine
as it stands. Thoughts?

I've used it (either oil/poly, or the Sam Maloof canned) extensively on
tables (end/hall) that don't get much activity, which have all held up fine
for a number of years. I have also used it on two coffee tables, both of
which have been used extensively and the finish is holding up well after
three or four years use.

In addition, I recently applied a Sam Maloof finish to a hope chest that
sits at the end of a bed, gets occasional use as bench, with shopping bags,
suitcases, etc., injudiciously applied ... while it is still too early to
tell, so far so good.

When I build a piece with this finish for a client, I usually give them a
bottle of the oil/poly/wax mixture and tell them to apply it whenever they
feel the finish needs to be "refreshed", about every year or so.

Being that simple to maintain, my feeling is that you'll be fine.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Toller" wrote in message

"Swingman" wrote in message


"Toller" wrote in message

Why would you want to? What effect are you trying to obtain?

Why, indeed ... re-read the original post.

This particular finishing method/technique imparts a unique
luster/patina
to
the wood that, thus far in my experience, can only be obtained by
handrubbing the oil/poly finish with loving care, then following up with
the
oil/poly/wax mixture ... probably one of the reasons why Sam chose to
use
it so often.

Not after you put poly on top of it!

I don't put poly "on top" of anything. The use of shellac on top of a
oil/poly finish, as a possible top coat if the need ever arose, was _my_
question.

I admit I don't know the answer ... and it appears I'm not the only one.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"damian penney" wrote in message

Now that's what I like to hear. Think I'll skip that poly coat after
all and leave it as is. How many coats of the oil/poly do you
typically use

I generally stop at five coats .... takes five days in good weather. A PITA,
but worth it for the final results.

Here's five coats of Sam Maloof oil/poly finish, and two coats of Sam
Maloof's oil/poly/wax on a cherry/walnut hope chest done last December ...
picture doesn't do the finish justice:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/HC24.jpg

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On May 15, 10:58 am, "Swingman" wrote:
"damian penney" wrote in message
Now that's what I like to hear. Think I'll skip that poly coat after
all and leave it as is. How many coats of the oil/poly do you
typically use

I generally stop at five coats .... takes five days in good weather. A PITA,
but worth it for the final results.

Here's five coats of Sam Maloof oil/poly finish, and two coats of Sam
Maloof's oil/poly/wax on a cherry/walnut hope chest done last December ...
picture doesn't do the finish justice:

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/HC24.jpg

--www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Looks great, and it really is difficult getting pictures that do these
finishes justice. Okay, another couple of poly/oil and then a couple
of oil/wax it is.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"Toller" wrote in message

"Swingman" wrote in message


"Toller" wrote in message

Why would you want to? What effect are you trying to obtain?

Why, indeed ... re-read the original post.

This particular finishing method/technique imparts a unique
luster/patina
to
the wood that, thus far in my experience, can only be obtained by
handrubbing the oil/poly finish with loving care, then following up
with
the
oil/poly/wax mixture ... probably one of the reasons why Sam chose to
use
it so often.

Not after you put poly on top of it!

I don't put poly "on top" of anything. The use of shellac on top of a
oil/poly finish, as a possible top coat if the need ever arose, was _my_
question.

I admit I don't know the answer ... and it appears I'm not the only one.


I think I do. It will look like whatever the top coat is. Why wouldn't it?

On May 15, 12:35 pm, "Toller" wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message

...

"Toller" wrote in message

"Swingman" wrote in message

"Toller" wrote in message

Why would you want to? What effect are you trying to obtain?

Why, indeed ... re-read the original post.

This particular finishing method/technique imparts a unique
luster/patina
to
the wood that, thus far in my experience, can only be obtained by
handrubbing the oil/poly finish with loving care, then following up
with
the
oil/poly/wax mixture ... probably one of the reasons why Sam chose to
use
it so often.

Not after you put poly on top of it!

I don't put poly "on top" of anything. The use of shellac on top of a
oil/poly finish, as a possible top coat if the need ever arose, was _my_
question.

I admit I don't know the answer ... and it appears I'm not the only one.


I think I do. It will look like whatever the top coat is. Why wouldn't it?

Because a piece of cellophane placed on top of sandpaper will look and
feel a lot different than that same piece of cellophane placed on top
of a grand piano.

"Toller" wrote in message

I think I do. It will look like whatever the top coat is. Why wouldn't
it?

You're missing the point ... the main issue in question is compatibility of
finishes.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On May 15, 9:11 am, damian penney wrote:
On May 15, 2:55 am, "George" wrote:

"Swingman" wrote in message

m...

George, what are your thoughts on using shellac on a well cured finish of
the Sam Maloof type?

I've heard both yes and no, but have never personally tried it.

I don't use it on things subject to a lot of knocks. Lots of turnings,
shelves, things like that, but nothing big. Not sure why it wouldn't do, I
just don't.

You might run into a problem with adhesion if there's a full surface finish
already.

Someone over on the FineWoodworking boards brought up the point that
Maloof uses this finish on his chairs which I'd imagine would get
about as much abuse as I expect this bench to get (i.e sat on every
now and then and bags placed on) so perhaps the finish would be fine
as it stands. Thoughts?

The Maloof finish isn't marred by abuse. It's patinated.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"Toller" wrote in message

I think I do. It will look like whatever the top coat is. Why wouldn't
it?

You're missing the point ... the main issue in question is compatibility
of
finishes.


Also missing the point if the undercoats are satin and the top not.