I'm making built-ins for an area that will still have usable space behind the
shelves (roof line and portico make this space otherwise unusable). I'm going
to make two units that are hinged and swing out to reveal the hidden area
(which will store my network gear etc). Conceputally this is a great use for
the space, but before I start building the units I'd like to run this by the
group:

1) Hinges vs. Pivots - The bookshelves will be approx 12"d x 24"w x 60"h,
smaller than a "full size" standalone unit. I'm concerned that the weight of
the unit plus books/etc may make traditional hinges a non-option. Should I
assume this and proceed with pivots, or am I being my normal anal-retentive
self and worrying too much?

2) Racking - Knowing that the units will indeed be suspended from one egde (or
very close to the edge if a pivot is used), what worries will I have with
racking? I was planing on a standard dado/rabbet case construction of 3/4" ply
(maybe solid maple - haven't decided yet), 1/4" ply dadoed for the back, and
adjustable shelves. Is this going to work in my case or should I beef up the
construction? I'm thinking that maybe 1/2 ply should be used for the back, but
then I'm adding another 10+ pounds to each unit.

Anyway, any guidance/suggestions are greatly appreciated - I want to do this
right the first time :-)

Thanks,

--Henry


__________________________________________________ ____________________________________
To reply use henry @t henrywebb d0t com

Big Al Dexter wrote:
I'm making built-ins for an area that will still have usable space behind the
shelves (roof line and portico make this space otherwise unusable). I'm going
to make two units that are hinged and swing out to reveal the hidden area
(which will store my network gear etc). Conceputally this is a great use for
the space, but before I start building the units I'd like to run this by the
group:

1) Hinges vs. Pivots - The bookshelves will be approx 12"d x 24"w x 60"h,

2) Racking - Knowing that the units will indeed be suspended from one egde (or

I have been thinking about doing something similar. My current
idea is to use casters on the bottom of the side opposite the
hinges. Maybe have a toe molding that flips up to reveal and
unlock the casters. This assume a hardwood or other smooth
surfaced floor, of course.

I'm still in the thinking-about-it stage, so post to the group
about what you decide to do, and how it goes for you.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

You might check out these japanese bookshelves for some inspiration.
They dont swing but instead have 2 or 3 "layers" of shelves that slide
back and forth infront of eachother to expose the rear shelves.

http://www.morisita.com/bookman/index.html
(page in japanese but lots of nice pictures)

My parents imported some and they are very handy but I have never seen
any like them in the US.
-Paul

Big Al Dexter wrote:
I'm making built-ins for an area that will still have usable space behind the
shelves (roof line and portico make this space otherwise unusable). I'm going
to make two units that are hinged and swing out to reveal the hidden area
(which will store my network gear etc). Conceputally this is a great use for
the space, but before I start building the units I'd like to run this by the
group:

1) Hinges vs. Pivots - The bookshelves will be approx 12"d x 24"w x 60"h,
smaller than a "full size" standalone unit. I'm concerned that the weight of
the unit plus books/etc may make traditional hinges a non-option. Should I
assume this and proceed with pivots, or am I being my normal anal-retentive
self and worrying too much?

2) Racking - Knowing that the units will indeed be suspended from one egde (or
very close to the edge if a pivot is used), what worries will I have with
racking? I was planing on a standard dado/rabbet case construction of 3/4" ply
(maybe solid maple - haven't decided yet), 1/4" ply dadoed for the back, and
adjustable shelves. Is this going to work in my case or should I beef up the
construction? I'm thinking that maybe 1/2 ply should be used for the back, but
then I'm adding another 10+ pounds to each unit.

Anyway, any guidance/suggestions are greatly appreciated - I want to do this
right the first time :-)

Thanks,

--Henry


__________________________________________________ ____________________________________
To reply use henry @t henrywebb d0t com

definitely put wheels or something on the "swing" side. They'll hold up the
shelves (so they don't rack), and will help prevent scratches in the floor
when you swing out the shelves.....

Let us all know how it works out..

--JD


"Big Al Dexter" wrote in message
om...
I'm making built-ins for an area that will still have usable space behind
the
shelves (roof line and portico make this space otherwise unusable). I'm
going
to make two units that are hinged and swing out to reveal the hidden area
(which will store my network gear etc). Conceputally this is a great use
for
the space, but before I start building the units I'd like to run this by
the
group:

1) Hinges vs. Pivots - The bookshelves will be approx 12"d x 24"w x 60"h,
smaller than a "full size" standalone unit. I'm concerned that the weight
of
the unit plus books/etc may make traditional hinges a non-option. Should I
assume this and proceed with pivots, or am I being my normal
anal-retentive
self and worrying too much?

2) Racking - Knowing that the units will indeed be suspended from one egde
(or
very close to the edge if a pivot is used), what worries will I have with
racking? I was planing on a standard dado/rabbet case construction of 3/4"
ply
(maybe solid maple - haven't decided yet), 1/4" ply dadoed for the back,
and
adjustable shelves. Is this going to work in my case or should I beef up
the
construction? I'm thinking that maybe 1/2 ply should be used for the back,
but
then I'm adding another 10+ pounds to each unit.

Anyway, any guidance/suggestions are greatly appreciated - I want to do
this
right the first time :-)

Thanks,

--Henry



__________________________________________________ __________________________
__________
To reply use henry @t henrywebb d0t com

Good ideas from all. The one thing I failed to mention is that the units will
be about 3 FEET off the floor (it's a REAL strange area that I have to work
with - imagine a 9'6" wall that has a "hole" 3' off the floor and that's
close) so the caster idea is out. I'll have to rely on the king studs or sill
to carry the load totally... But, as mentioned, I think that hinges just may
work (my front door is solid mahogany and I know it's well over 200 lbs -
should've thought of that ;-))

Also, I think that since the objective is for this to appear hidden as well
(forgot to mention that too!) that the pivots would be easier to hide from
plain view (as they are mortised into the bottom of each unit).

Decisions, decisions... I'll take some pics and post them to a.b.p.w of the
existing area tonight, and thenas I move forward will keep the wreck updated
as to how it works. Fingers crossed, please!

:-)

--Henry

"jduprie" wrote:
definitely put wheels or something on the "swing" side. They'll hold up the
shelves (so they don't rack), and will help prevent scratches in the floor
when you swing out the shelves.....

Let us all know how it works out..

--JD


"Big Al Dexter" wrote in message
om...
I'm making built-ins for an area that will still have usable space behind
the
shelves (roof line and portico make this space otherwise unusable). I'm
going
to make two units that are hinged and swing out to reveal the hidden area
(which will store my network gear etc). Conceputally this is a great use
for
the space, but before I start building the units I'd like to run this by
the
group:

1) Hinges vs. Pivots - The bookshelves will be approx 12"d x 24"w x 60"h,
smaller than a "full size" standalone unit. I'm concerned that the weight
of
the unit plus books/etc may make traditional hinges a non-option. Should I
assume this and proceed with pivots, or am I being my normal
anal-retentive
self and worrying too much?

2) Racking - Knowing that the units will indeed be suspended from one egde
(or
very close to the edge if a pivot is used), what worries will I have with
racking? I was planing on a standard dado/rabbet case construction of 3/4"
ply
(maybe solid maple - haven't decided yet), 1/4" ply dadoed for the back,
and
adjustable shelves. Is this going to work in my case or should I beef up
the
construction? I'm thinking that maybe 1/2 ply should be used for the back,
but
then I'm adding another 10+ pounds to each unit.

Anyway, any guidance/suggestions are greatly appreciated - I want to do
this
right the first time :-)

How about some piano hinges, they even use them(of proper quality) on aircraft.
I think that they would be plenty strong, maybe a wire rope w/turnbuckle on the
back to prevent racking, constant tension. Just an idea.
Jesse M

How about a slide out bookcase? Slides mounted at the top, that would let
you pivot the unit up and support it on a folding or telescoping support
that would swing down from the lower back?
Joe
who can see it in his mind's eye, but not the hardware to make it happen

wrote:
Big Al Dexter wrote:


Decisions, decisions... I'll take some pics and post them to a.b.p.w of the
existing area tonight, and thenas I move forward will keep the wreck updated
as to how it works. Fingers crossed, please!


I looked at your picture of the opening. So, hinges or pivots it is with
no outboard casters for support. In that case, reinforce the corners
and cross brace the case. Someone suggested a turnbuckle style, though
I think I would use something else like a piece of wood or metal.

I will be interested to see how you get swinging clearance.
The shelves will have some depth, so the opening has to
be a bit bigger than the case. I suppose a face frame could
hide the gap. You did say you wanted to have two shelf units
that swing out from the center, right? In the picture it
appears to me you might have a clearance problem opening
the right hand shelf unit.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

Interesting.... I can't quite picture that, but I think that it may not work
with a live load of books (and the swinging lets me get behind the units very
easily). Good thought though - I'd love to see a sketch to understand your
idea better...

Joe Gorman wrote:
How about a slide out bookcase? Slides mounted at the top, that would let
you pivot the unit up and support it on a folding or telescoping support
that would swing down from the lower back?
Joe
who can see it in his mind's eye, but not the hardware to make it happen

wrote:
Big Al Dexter wrote:


Decisions, decisions... I'll take some pics and post them to a.b.p.w of the
existing area tonight, and thenas I move forward will keep the wreck updated
as to how it works. Fingers crossed, please!


I looked at your picture of the opening. So, hinges or pivots it is with
no outboard casters for support. In that case, reinforce the corners
and cross brace the case. Someone suggested a turnbuckle style, though
I think I would use something else like a piece of wood or metal.

I will be interested to see how you get swinging clearance.
The shelves will have some depth, so the opening has to
be a bit bigger than the case. I suppose a face frame could
hide the gap. You did say you wanted to have two shelf units
that swing out from the center, right? In the picture it
appears to me you might have a clearance problem opening
the right hand shelf unit.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:19:27 GMT, lid (Big
Al Dexter) wrote:

I'm making built-ins for an area that will still have usable space behind the
shelves (roof line and portico make this space otherwise unusable). I'm going
to make two units that are hinged and swing out to reveal the hidden area
(which will store my network gear etc). Conceputally this is a great use for
the space, but before I start building the units I'd like to run this by the
group:
[snip]

I happened to visit a friend's house -- on Monday, about 2500 miles away,
so I am always thinking of the problems posed here -- that has a full-sized
door bookcase, fully loaded, on hinges. Not only does the unit hold books,
but also a bronze bust and some trophies. Even empty, I bet the thing
weighs a lot.

House was started in the 20s and finished after prohibition started. Built
by wealthy "porcelin king" -- there are so many bathrooms in the house that
even after staying there for years I found another one recently.
Incredible tile work. 10 baths so far, I think.

Anyway, the door/bookshelf opens to the back of the bar. A 10" deep
counterbalanced bookshelf drops down like a vertical pocket door to hide
the bar itself. The wall it is in is about 40" thick. (That is, bar
counter opens to one room; the door that lets you get behind the bar is
accessed from another room.) Anyway, the "door" is built entirely with 1x
oak; no 1/4" ply for the back. I did not get a chance to study the
joinery. For clearance, the corner edge of the "door" that is on the latch
side is actually rounded -- you can only see that feature when you open the
door. Does that make sense? You know how you cannot, looking down from
above, have a square corner for the latch-side rear corner or the door
could not open; normally, that would be angled, but they rounded it. From
the room-side, by using wide pieces of molding, they could make the inside
of that same corner appear square. Beautiful work. BTW, the bookshelf
side of the door and all the adjoining shelves in that room are painted
white; you can only see the oak on the bar/in- side.

The hinges are hidden but not invisible -- it is not truly a hidden door.
My guess is that this was the type of house that during prohibition did not
have to worry about a raid -- well-connected owner. Then again, maybe
there was something else used to hide the hinges back then. OTOH, the
drop-down pocket-bookshelf on the other side does make the bar counter
invisible.

The door is held with 3 large, but certainly not huge mortised-in hinges --
and it swings with no effort. The hinges are maybe 4" high and maybe 3"
wide -- there are 2 columns of 3 screws on each hinge plate.

HTH. -- Igor

Thanks for the info, Igor. This is exactly what I was hoping to hear. This may
be a long shot, but is there any chance of getting a few digital pics of the
door and it's molding details? I'm actually looking at that problem (having to
bevel or round the hinged side) right now and would like to see what has
actually worked in the real world. Any further details would be GREATLY
appreciated!

Thanks again,

--Henry
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________
To reply use henry @t henrywebb d0t com

Igor wrote:

I happened to visit a friend's house -- on Monday, about 2500 miles away,
so I am always thinking of the problems posed here -- that has a full-sized
door bookcase, fully loaded, on hinges. Not only does the unit hold books,
but also a bronze bust and some trophies. Even empty, I bet the thing
weighs a lot.

House was started in the 20s and finished after prohibition started. Built
by wealthy "porcelin king" -- there are so many bathrooms in the house that
even after staying there for years I found another one recently.
Incredible tile work. 10 baths so far, I think.

Anyway, the door/bookshelf opens to the back of the bar. A 10" deep
counterbalanced bookshelf drops down like a vertical pocket door to hide
the bar itself. The wall it is in is about 40" thick. (That is, bar
counter opens to one room; the door that lets you get behind the bar is
accessed from another room.) Anyway, the "door" is built entirely with 1x
oak; no 1/4" ply for the back. I did not get a chance to study the
joinery. For clearance, the corner edge of the "door" that is on the latch
side is actually rounded -- you can only see that feature when you open the
door. Does that make sense? You know how you cannot, looking down from
above, have a square corner for the latch-side rear corner or the door
could not open; normally, that would be angled, but they rounded it. From
the room-side, by using wide pieces of molding, they could make the inside
of that same corner appear square. Beautiful work. BTW, the bookshelf
side of the door and all the adjoining shelves in that room are painted
white; you can only see the oak on the bar/in- side.

The hinges are hidden but not invisible -- it is not truly a hidden door.
My guess is that this was the type of house that during prohibition did not
have to worry about a raid -- well-connected owner. Then again, maybe
there was something else used to hide the hinges back then. OTOH, the
drop-down pocket-bookshelf on the other side does make the bar counter
invisible.

The door is held with 3 large, but certainly not huge mortised-in hinges --
and it swings with no effort. The hinges are maybe 4" high and maybe 3"
wide -- there are 2 columns of 3 screws on each hinge plate.

HTH. -- Igor

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:10:03 GMT, lid (Big
Al Dexter) wrote:

Thanks for the info, Igor. This is exactly what I was hoping to hear. This may
be a long shot, but is there any chance of getting a few digital pics of the
door and it's molding details? I'm actually looking at that problem (having to
bevel or round the hinged side) right now and would like to see what has
actually worked in the real world. Any further details would be GREATLY
appreciated!

Thanks again,

--Henry
No photos. I did do up some 3d graphics for the concepts and posted them
at alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking. Note that the bevel/rounding is at
the _latch_ side.

Thanks, Igor - I'll have a look shortly... Appreciate all of the help!

--Henry

Igor wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:10:03 GMT, lid
(Big`Al Dexter)
wrote:___________________________________________ ___________________________________________
To reply use henry @t henrywebb d0t com

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:45:10 GMT, lid
(Big Al Dexter) wrote:

Interesting.... I can't quite picture that, but I think that it may not work
with a live load of books (and the swinging lets me get behind the units very
easily). Good thought though - I'd love to see a sketch to understand your
idea better...

Joe Gorman wrote:
How about a slide out bookcase? Slides mounted at the top, that would let
you pivot the unit up and support it on a folding or telescoping support
that would swing down from the lower back?
Joe
who can see it in his mind's eye, but not the hardware to make it happen

wrote:
Big Al Dexter wrote:


Decisions, decisions... I'll take some pics and post them to a.b.p.w of the
existing area tonight, and thenas I move forward will keep the wreck updated
as to how it works. Fingers crossed, please!


I looked at your picture of the opening. So, hinges or pivots it is with
no outboard casters for support. In that case, reinforce the corners
and cross brace the case. Someone suggested a turnbuckle style, though
I think I would use something else like a piece of wood or metal.

I will be interested to see how you get swinging clearance.
The shelves will have some depth, so the opening has to
be a bit bigger than the case. I suppose a face frame could
hide the gap. You did say you wanted to have two shelf units
that swing out from the center, right? In the picture it
appears to me you might have a clearance problem opening
the right hand shelf unit.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.


I didnt see the original post but if you want a hidden room with book
case its not that difficult to do. I just did this very thing in my
home last year. I used a 3'0" 6'8" solid core door for the back of the
book case. Then i built the book case on the outside of the door. I
built up the wall that was to hinge the monster using 6 studs laged
together in the wall. THen i built the jamb complete with stop bead
and hung the door using 5 4 1/2 "by 4 1/2 " comercial hinges and
used 6" lags in each of the hinges on the jamb side and 3 1/2 screws
on the door side. I built the kick and attached it dirrectly to the
floor so that it looked like it was all one peice. Its has been there
over a year and NO SETTLING has occured yet. I used shoe molding to
trim out the sides and attached this to the book case. This hides the
latch for the lock that i installed and i glued up a half dozen old
books to hide the lock. the whole thing probly weighs in at around 500
pounds or more loaded with books. you cant tell its there so it makes
a great place to hide stuff. skeez
'