I agree with almost everything you said, Dave, but want to point out that a
CAD program does *not* suggest that objects are static. It's a
representation of the real world, not the real world itself. Anyone who
doesn't realize that tools are capable of being moved around has no business
playing with them in the first place.

Here are some clues that the equipment is meant to be moved:

"...jointer is easily moved away from wall for use"
"...dust collector near door: easy to roll outside"
"...belt sander easily repositioned for long pieces"
"...router table ...can be moved away easily"
"...oscillating sander can use router table..."
"...thickness planer moves to the assembly table"
"...Sheet goods bin ...2" metal wheels allow it to swing away from the
lumber rack."
"...sharpening station (on wheels)"
"...mechanic's tool chest (on wheels)"

I disagree when you say that "The best way to arrange is in the shop; not on
the pc." Pushing many hundreds of pounds of equipment back and forth to find
the best location takes second place to a little intelligent forethought and
planning, and that's *exactly* what CAD programs are designed for. And this
particular program allows one to move stuff around in real time, just by
clicking and dragging, including in 3-D, all in exact scale. You really
should take a look at it. Hey, it beats sweating any time, and it darned
sure beats purchasing a piece of equipment only to find out later that you
don't really have the proper space for it. Probably if I was less that 2000
miles away from my shop, I would do a little pushing and shoving, but I'm
not, so I can't!

Sorry if I sound testy, Dave: maybe I am just misinterpreting the tone of
your message. It's just that you seem to be saying the exact same things in
your note that I said in my post, but with a scolding tone. Maybe it's just
me. I really do look for positive and constructive feedback, Dave, and hope
I haven't reacted to hastily.

DanD

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
y.com...
anyone considering putting lots of equipment in a 2 car garage, such as
you've listed will do well to put them all on mobile stands. Then there
really isn't a static setup as a CAD program would suggest. In use,
equipment gets re-arranged by the moment to fit the task at hand. i.e.,
to joint a long board, you aren't going to be able to use the jointer if
it's sitting alongside obstructions. The best way to arrange is in the
shop; not on the pc.

CAD is a wonderful tool. Souns as though you have really thought it
through. Good luck! Like everybody else, you'll find some things
you'll change when you actually start using it.

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 06:39:57 GMT, "Dan Dresner"
wrote:

I agree with almost everything you said, Dave, but want to point out that a
CAD program does *not* suggest that objects are static. It's a
representation of the real world, not the real world itself. Anyone who
doesn't realize that tools are capable of being moved around has no business
playing with them in the first place.

Here are some clues that the equipment is meant to be moved:

"...jointer is easily moved away from wall for use"
"...dust collector near door: easy to roll outside"
"...belt sander easily repositioned for long pieces"
"...router table ...can be moved away easily"
"...oscillating sander can use router table..."
"...thickness planer moves to the assembly table"
"...Sheet goods bin ...2" metal wheels allow it to swing away from the
lumber rack."
"...sharpening station (on wheels)"
"...mechanic's tool chest (on wheels)"

I disagree when you say that "The best way to arrange is in the shop; not on
the pc." Pushing many hundreds of pounds of equipment back and forth to find
the best location takes second place to a little intelligent forethought and
planning, and that's *exactly* what CAD programs are designed for. And this
particular program allows one to move stuff around in real time, just by
clicking and dragging, including in 3-D, all in exact scale. You really
should take a look at it. Hey, it beats sweating any time, and it darned
sure beats purchasing a piece of equipment only to find out later that you
don't really have the proper space for it. Probably if I was less that 2000
miles away from my shop, I would do a little pushing and shoving, but I'm
not, so I can't!

Sorry if I sound testy, Dave: maybe I am just misinterpreting the tone of
your message. It's just that you seem to be saying the exact same things in
your note that I said in my post, but with a scolding tone. Maybe it's just
me. I really do look for positive and constructive feedback, Dave, and hope
I haven't reacted to hastily.

DanD

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
gy.com...
anyone considering putting lots of equipment in a 2 car garage, such as
you've listed will do well to put them all on mobile stands. Then there
really isn't a static setup as a CAD program would suggest. In use,
equipment gets re-arranged by the moment to fit the task at hand. i.e.,
to joint a long board, you aren't going to be able to use the jointer if
it's sitting alongside obstructions. The best way to arrange is in the
shop; not on the pc.

Now Dave, let's not be silly. Does one go out and build a house by
having a load of lumber delivered and start assembling it without a
plan? Even without room layouts?
I realize a house is "static" but a shop is static to a point also.
One can "plan" for tool mobility in laying out the shop and allowing
space as necessary.

Renata

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 03:29:48 GMT, Bay Area Dave
wrote:
--snip--
The best way to arrange is in the
shop; not on the pc.

Dan Dresner wrote:

There have been a several requests recently from wreckers who are setting up
shop in garage-sized spaces. I have been away from my shop for several years
now and still don't know when I'll be able to get back to it, so to keep my
hands from shaking (still in withdrawal after all this time), I have been
CAD-ing a re-arrangement of my stuff. I've incorporated as much as I could
from magazines, from rec.woodworking, and from the web, and tried to build
an "ideal" shop, given my space limitations.
--snip--
(no stain for email)

Very nice layout, Dan. Someone has commented that their favorite tool is
their workbench. That's the first time I thought of a workbench as a tool
instead of furniture and I've concluded they are correct. Carrying the
comparison further, I guess my favorite tool would be my shop. ;) I have a
similar layout to what you propose, however, I've turned the assembly table
90 deg. and butted it up to the outfeed side of the saw and find it very
effective as an outfeed table, especially for 4x8 sheets. I'm sure a lot of
folks who will never say so will find your pictures and legend very helpful.
Congratulations on a very constructive post.

"Dan Dresner" wrote in message
news:sih%a.125819$Oz4.26043@rwcrnsc54...
There have been a several requests recently from wreckers who are setting
up
shop in garage-sized spaces. I have been away from my shop for several
years
now and still don't know when I'll be able to get back to it, so to keep
my
hands from shaking (still in withdrawal after all this time), I have been
CAD-ing a re-arrangement of my stuff. I've incorporated as much as I could
from magazines, from rec.woodworking, and from the web, and tried to build
an "ideal" shop, given my space limitations.

I just posted 4 scale drawings on rec.binaries.pictures.woodworking that
show what I'm planning. Several things should be kept in mind, especially
by
newbies: 1) I'm an amateur with limited experience; 2) I haven't set up
the
shop yet; and 3) I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, so I'd sure
appreciate any and all constructive input!!!

The following refers to the file on ABPW named "24x30 garage workshop -
plan
view [1/5]"

LEGEND

A. 4" belt sander
B. oscillating drum sander
C. 14" or 16" band saw
D. 6" jointer
E. 13" thickness planer
F. air compressor
G. cyclonic dust collector
H. table saw (poss. add router to extension later)
I. sheet goods storage
J. lumber and narrow stock storage (partially hidden behind sheet
goods)
K. large storage drawers; accessory drawers; hardware bins
L. open storage shelves; saw blades; books; sandpaper
M. work bench (poss. add miter saw in future)
N. storage for mortiser
O. mortiser location when in use (blank plate in opening other times)
P. hand tool chest
Q. mechanic's tool chest (on wheels) stored under workbench
R. assembly table; lunch counter
S. clamp cart (other clamps on walls in various locations)
T. twist, Forstner, masonry bits; drill press accessories
U. sharpening station (on wheels)
V. drill press
W. ladders
X. main workbench (no tail vice)
Y. storage shelves; cutoff bins
Z. router table


NOTES

1. 2-car garage is 24' x 30'

2. all dust collector drops connect to tools with flexible hose and
blast
gates

3. All major dust-producers except TS located along one wall, near dust
collector. TS duct connects to 1st drop west of DC.

4. dust collector is near the door: easy to roll outside to remove
lower
bag

5. belt sander is easily repositioned for long pieces and can use the
workbench for add'l support; in front of rarely-used side door

6. router table can use the workbench to support long pieces and v.v.;
can be moved away easily

7. oscillating sander can use the router table for support of large
pieces

8. band saw table is high enough to allow workpiece to miss oscillating
sander and jointer on either side

9. jointer is easily moved away from the wall for use

10 thickness planer moves to the assembly table for outfeed support

11 Sheet goods bin is hinged with U-bolts that pass through heavy-duty
eye
hooks secured to reinforced wall stud; 3" metal wheels allow it to swing
away from the lumber rack. (I stole this GREAT idea from Chris Merrill
(http://christophermerrill.net/ww/shop/storage1.html). Thanks, Chris.

12. workflow: sheet goods and lumber enter through main garage door, move
to TS, jointer, and planer; all of which are nearby

13. workflow: cut pieces are then placed on the assembly bench, easy to
take to band saw, sanders, router table, and work bench

14. metalwork is all in one corner to minimize metal dust particles;
drill
bits and hand tools near sharpening station and main workbench

15. To make working with the CAD program easier, I created half-walls
rather than full-height to show the boundaries of the garage.

16. The drawing was done with Design Workshop Classic, the best
inexpensive
3-D modeler I've been able to find (after MUCH looking!). The learning
curve
isn't too steep, although there are some quite serious shortcomings in the
program and the documentation leaves much to be desired. Even so, it's a
heckuva program and well-worth trying out: you can download a free,
unlimited-use copy of the program from
http://www.artifice.com/free/dw_lite.html. The freebie is essentially the
same as the Classic, with a fairly generous limitation on the number of
objects you can create. And their support is outstanding: send them an
email
and you'll either get a quick email in return - or a timely phone call
from
a truly knowledgeable and courteous tech who will stay with you until your
questions are resolved. This endorsement, in fact, is my way of thanking
them for their professionalism and courtesy.

and I agree with using a pc as a starting point. my point was that
EVENTUALLY you have to USE your tools, and the ONLY definitive layout is
achieved in real life. There's absolutely nothing wrong with getting a
leg up by trial and error by shifting things around on screen, but I'm
sure even you know that "the proof is in the pudding". in this case,
the pudding is "the real world". I wasn't saying NOT to start with CAD.
what I said was what was "best". I certainly wasn't scolding you g

and what is with the comment about moving heavy stuff around? don't you
have heavy items on mobile carts? g

dave

Dan Dresner wrote:

I agree with almost everything you said, Dave, but want to point out that a
CAD program does *not* suggest that objects are static. It's a
representation of the real world, not the real world itself. Anyone who
doesn't realize that tools are capable of being moved around has no business
playing with them in the first place.

Here are some clues that the equipment is meant to be moved:

"...jointer is easily moved away from wall for use"
"...dust collector near door: easy to roll outside"
"...belt sander easily repositioned for long pieces"
"...router table ...can be moved away easily"
"...oscillating sander can use router table..."
"...thickness planer moves to the assembly table"
"...Sheet goods bin ...2" metal wheels allow it to swing away from the
lumber rack."
"...sharpening station (on wheels)"
"...mechanic's tool chest (on wheels)"

I disagree when you say that "The best way to arrange is in the shop; not on
the pc." Pushing many hundreds of pounds of equipment back and forth to find
the best location takes second place to a little intelligent forethought and
planning, and that's *exactly* what CAD programs are designed for. And this
particular program allows one to move stuff around in real time, just by
clicking and dragging, including in 3-D, all in exact scale. You really
should take a look at it. Hey, it beats sweating any time, and it darned
sure beats purchasing a piece of equipment only to find out later that you
don't really have the proper space for it. Probably if I was less that 2000
miles away from my shop, I would do a little pushing and shoving, but I'm
not, so I can't!

Sorry if I sound testy, Dave: maybe I am just misinterpreting the tone of
your message. It's just that you seem to be saying the exact same things in
your note that I said in my post, but with a scolding tone. Maybe it's just
me. I really do look for positive and constructive feedback, Dave, and hope
I haven't reacted to hastily.

DanD

"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
y.com...

anyone considering putting lots of equipment in a 2 car garage, such as
you've listed will do well to put them all on mobile stands. Then there
really isn't a static setup as a CAD program would suggest. In use,
equipment gets re-arranged by the moment to fit the task at hand. i.e.,
to joint a long board, you aren't going to be able to use the jointer if
it's sitting alongside obstructions. The best way to arrange is in the
shop; not on the pc.