After 19 years in our home, the insurance company has decided we need a
railing on our front porch. Nobody had ever fallen off, but I guess they're
getting a little more picky after the recent disasters they've been paying
for - or paying the lawyers to avoid paying for :-).


Anyway, I'm going to make the posts from 4x4s, notched to fit over the edge of
the porch. Two inches thickness on the porch leaving 1.5" thickness for
attaching to the joists.

The notched joists are common in our area and look a lot better than a full
4x4 on the edge. But it seems to me that leaning on the rail with sufficient
weight would tend to start a split at the end of the notch. I'm thinking of
running a 3" screw or lag bolt into the post, or maybe a through bolt, just
above the notch to guard against this. Will this work as I think it will?

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Larry Blanchard wrote:
After 19 years in our home, the insurance company has decided we need a
railing on our front porch. Nobody had ever fallen off, but I guess they're
getting a little more picky after the recent disasters they've been paying
for - or paying the lawyers to avoid paying for :-).


Anyway, I'm going to make the posts from 4x4s, notched to fit over the edge of
the porch. Two inches thickness on the porch leaving 1.5" thickness for
attaching to the joists.

The notched joists are common in our area and look a lot better than a full
4x4 on the edge. But it seems to me that leaning on the rail with sufficient
weight would tend to start a split at the end of the notch. I'm thinking of
running a 3" screw or lag bolt into the post, or maybe a through bolt, just
above the notch to guard against this. Will this work as I think it will?

--
It's turtles, all the way down

I'd find a way to use the full4x4, perhaps by pulling a deck board,
installing the post inside the rim joist, and cutting the deck board
to clear the post.
Phil Brown

In addition to the insuranceman's lawyer your locality's building code
may or may not have something to say about the railing's construction.

On my back porch there are notched 4x4 posts as you've described.
However, the "tails" are on the *inside* of the rim joist, not the
outside. That way, when leaning against the rail the 2" thick portion of
the cutout bears the weight - and it's resting on the rim joist. The
tail, being screwed to the inside of the rim joist, holds it all in
place. (I'd check if they're just screws or lag bolts but it's raining
just now....)

This is a much better and safer arrangement than putting the tails on
the outside of the rim joist. Eventually that will cause the splitting
you're concerned about.

J.


Larry Blanchard wrote:
After 19 years in our home, the insurance company has decided we need a
railing on our front porch. Nobody had ever fallen off, but I guess they're
getting a little more picky after the recent disasters they've been paying
for - or paying the lawyers to avoid paying for :-).


Anyway, I'm going to make the posts from 4x4s, notched to fit over the edge of
the porch. Two inches thickness on the porch leaving 1.5" thickness for
attaching to the joists.

The notched joists are common in our area and look a lot better than a full
4x4 on the edge. But it seems to me that leaning on the rail with sufficient
weight would tend to start a split at the end of the notch. I'm thinking of
running a 3" screw or lag bolt into the post, or maybe a through bolt, just
above the notch to guard against this. Will this work as I think it will?

I really can't see what the problem is, other than aesthetics. Even with
the notch as described, and the upright fastened (either lag bolted or
screwed) to the rim joist, you still have a full 2" thick post supporting
your railing. This is even if the 4X4 splits. I am not certain how much
force would be required to cause a 2" thick post to fail across the grain
but I suspect it would be more than mere leaning against the railing or
post.

This is just my opinion and I will admit I am not an engineer, archetecht or
other professional. I have, however, had a decl woth a railing as described
for almost 30 years with no problems or other failure.

I will also admit that it would be preferable to mount full 4X4s to the
inside of the deck structure and notch the deck boards around them.

"J." wrote in message
...
In addition to the insuranceman's lawyer your locality's building code may
or may not have something to say about the railing's construction.

On my back porch there are notched 4x4 posts as you've described. However,
the "tails" are on the *inside* of the rim joist, not the outside. That
way, when leaning against the rail the 2" thick portion of the cutout
bears the weight - and it's resting on the rim joist. The tail, being
screwed to the inside of the rim joist, holds it all in place. (I'd check
if they're just screws or lag bolts but it's raining just now....)

This is a much better and safer arrangement than putting the tails on the
outside of the rim joist. Eventually that will cause the splitting you're
concerned about.

J.


Larry Blanchard wrote:
After 19 years in our home, the insurance company has decided we need a
railing on our front porch. Nobody had ever fallen off, but I guess
they're
getting a little more picky after the recent disasters they've been
paying
for - or paying the lawyers to avoid paying for :-).


Anyway, I'm going to make the posts from 4x4s, notched to fit over the
edge of
the porch. Two inches thickness on the porch leaving 1.5" thickness for
attaching to the joists.

The notched joists are common in our area and look a lot better than a
full
4x4 on the edge. But it seems to me that leaning on the rail with
sufficient
weight would tend to start a split at the end of the notch. I'm thinking
of
running a 3" screw or lag bolt into the post, or maybe a through bolt,
just
above the notch to guard against this. Will this work as I think it
will?

An inlaw's porch rail had the tails on the outside. While no one got
injured, there was a loud crack once and a big outward sag in the
railing at a family gathering as several of the collected family members
all leaned against it, beers in hand.

J.

Doug Brown wrote:
I really can't see what the problem is, other than aesthetics. Even with
the notch as described, and the upright fastened (either lag bolted or
screwed) to the rim joist, you still have a full 2" thick post supporting
your railing. This is even if the 4X4 splits. I am not certain how much
force would be required to cause a 2" thick post to fail across the grain
but I suspect it would be more than mere leaning against the railing or
post.

This is just my opinion and I will admit I am not an engineer, archetecht or
other professional. I have, however, had a decl woth a railing as described
for almost 30 years with no problems or other failure.

I will also admit that it would be preferable to mount full 4X4s to the
inside of the deck structure and notch the deck boards around them.

They posts are thru bolted with carriage bolts.

J. wrote:

(I'd check if they're just screws or lag bolts but it's raining
just now....)

Doug Brown wrote:

I will also admit that it would be preferable to mount full 4X4s to the
inside of the deck structure and notch the deck boards around them.

And indeed, if I were building the porch, that is what I'd do. But it's an
existing structure (porch, not deck) and I'd have to do considerably more
work to rebuild it in that manner.

Since the porch will be occupied only by 2 seniors and the occasional guest, I
think I'll just go with the notched posts, reinforced as described.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Doug Brown wrote:

I really can't see what the problem is, other than aesthetics.**Even*with
the notch as described, and the upright fastened (either lag bolted or
screwed) to the rim joist, you**still*have*a*full*2"*thick*post*supporting
your railing.**This*is*even*if*the*4X4*splits.**I*am*no t*certain*how*much
force would be required to cause a 2" thick post to fail across the grain
but I suspect it would be more than mere leaning against the railing or
post.

It wouldn't be across the grain. it would be with the grain. IOW, the post
might split upwards from the notch.

My original question remains unanswered. Would a bolt/screw/lagbolt through
the post just above the notch resist such splitting? I think it would, but
wondered if others agreed.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

I don't know. But I'm going to guess that it won't add anything to a
sound, pressure treated post and it might actually weaken an untreated
cedar one. And given the gentle use it's going to get from you anyway,
it's probably not worth the extra work.

J.

Larry Blanchard wrote:

My original question remains unanswered. Would a bolt/screw/lagbolt through
the post just above the notch resist such splitting? I think it would, but
wondered if others agreed.

Reducing the depth of the notch would likely do more to resist splitting
than adding extra bolts. Make the notch 1" or 1 1/2" deep, leaving more
than half the thickness of the post to fasten through. Like J. said, extra
fasteners might weaken the post in other ways.

-MJ

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...
Doug Brown wrote:

I really can't see what the problem is, other than aesthetics. Even with
the notch as described, and the upright fastened (either lag bolted or
screwed) to the rim joist, you still have a full 2" thick post supporting
your railing. This is even if the 4X4 splits. I am not certain how much
force would be required to cause a 2" thick post to fail across the grain
but I suspect it would be more than mere leaning against the railing or
post.

It wouldn't be across the grain. it would be with the grain. IOW, the post
might split upwards from the notch.

My original question remains unanswered. Would a bolt/screw/lagbolt through
the post just above the notch resist such splitting? I think it would, but
wondered if others agreed.

--
It's turtles, all the way down