Or maybe someone can tell me how to use the two I have. The hook at
the end of the tape on both of mine (and every new one I picked up at
Lowes) has about a 1/16th inch of play. In other words, measuring a
board would be 1/16th longer than measuring the hole the board fits
into.

I have just recently got into woodworking and am building some built-in
bookshelves and facing in the shelves has been a pain due to this
1/16th. I doubt I've made a flush cut yet on the first try (not to
mention my miter saw fence needs to be adjusted. Anyways, the project
is proceeding, but for the drawers, I need to build them to fit each of
the holes I framed fairly accurately. I do my scribing and marking
with an exacto knife instead of a pencil, and for those cuts where I
mark the piece against the project, the cuts turn out fine.

So far, the most frusterating parts of this project have been:

1) Ripping plywood on my small table saw (no telling how many safety
violations I committed doing this).
2) Measuring for 1/16th inch accuracy.
3) Routering dados in opposing pieces of wood (i.e. for the shelves) as
my router, even with a guide on the workpieces, wants to jump away from
the guide.

Otherwise, I'm really enjoying woodworking and would like to get
better, and I think maybe a decent tape would be a start.

"jo_jo" writes:
Or maybe someone can tell me how to use the two I have. The hook at
the end of the tape on both of mine (and every new one I picked up at
Lowes) has about a 1/16th inch of play.

It's supposed to. The play in the hook should exactly match the
thickness of the hook, so that outside and inside measurements are
both accurate.

To check a tape measure, Find a straightedge that starts measuring at
the edge (2/3 of my rulers do this; the other 1/3 starts 1/8" from the
end). Hook the tape measure over the end of it, and ensure all the
inch marks line up. Now, push the tape measure against something and
put the straightedge NEXT to it (i.e. not touching the hook), again
verifying that the marks line up.

Alternately, you can use the 10" mark as a "zero" to measure against,
and ignore the hook completely (don't use 1", it's too easy to forget
to subtract the 1" but it's hard to ignore the extra 10" if you forget
that)

In other words, measuring a board would be 1/16th longer than
measuring the hole the board fits into.

Nope, doesn't work that way.

1) Ripping plywood on my small table saw (no telling how many safety
violations I committed doing this).

Clamp another piece of plywood to it as a guide for a circular saw or
router.

2) Measuring for 1/16th inch accuracy.

Learn to use your rulers correctly.

3) Routering dados in opposing pieces of wood (i.e. for the shelves) as
my router, even with a guide on the workpieces, wants to jump away from
the guide.

The guide is on the wrong side of the router, then, or your routing in
the wrong direction. The cutting action of the bit should be pushing
the router against the guide, not away from it.

Otherwise, I'm really enjoying woodworking and would like to get
better,

Find a local woodworking school and take a beginner's class. I think
that will ease many of your frustrations.

jo_jo wrote:
Or maybe someone can tell me how to use the two I have. The hook at
the end of the tape on both of mine (and every new one I picked up at
Lowes) has about a 1/16th inch of play.

I think the idea is that there's some play built in intentionally, to
account for the thickness of the hook. This way, if you measure an
inside length (i.e. push the end of the tape against something), or
measure the outside length (i.e. pull the hook against the end of a
board), the measurement SHOULD be the same. Sounds good in theory, at
least. My solutions to this problem generally involve trying to avoid
it: Use a combination square or drywall square or aluminum yardstick
when possible, measure the workpiece against the actual spot or other
workpiece where it needs to fit, or take all the tape measurements with
either a "push" or a "pull" on the hook end of the tape, so at least
they're consistent. I don't have one, but an old-fashoined folding
rule would solve your problem also - for example,
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,43513,43525
or http://tinyurl.com/ygf5fx

So far, the most frusterating parts of this project have been:

1) Ripping plywood on my small table saw (no telling how many safety
violations I committed doing this).

I'd rather use a circular saw - clamp a straightedge or plywood offcut
to your ply, and set it on the ground on a piece of styrofoam. No
trying to wrestle a whole sheet of ply over a little saw, just move a
different little saw over the sheet - easier and safer, therefore
probably more accurate. There are some good circ saw guides/jigs
available with a little googling.

2) Measuring for 1/16th inch accuracy.

As I mentioned above, I'd try a yardstick, or possibly a folding rule
or a storypole.

3) Routering dados in opposing pieces of wood (i.e. for the shelves) as
my router, even with a guide on the workpieces, wants to jump away from
the guide.

Try running your router the other direction along the guide - the
cutting of the bit on the wood should pull the router TOWARDS the
guide.

Otherwise, I'm really enjoying woodworking and would like to get
better, and I think maybe a decent tape would be a start.

Great! Have fun with it, and don't worry too much about a tape - in my
opinion, a tape is more of a construction tool, albiet one that's
sometimes useful for woodworking.
Good luck and stay safe,
Andy

"jo_jo" wrote in message
Or maybe someone can tell me how to use the two I have. The hook at
the end of the tape on both of mine (and every new one I picked up at
Lowes) has about a 1/16th inch of play. In other words, measuring a
board would be 1/16th longer than measuring the hole the board fits
into.

I have just recently got into woodworking and am building some built-in
bookshelves and facing in the shelves has been a pain due to this
1/16th.

The slack in the hook is there by design ... it automatically takes into
account the thickness of the hook when doing inside measurements.

1) Ripping plywood on my small table saw (no telling how many safety
violations I committed doing this).

2) Measuring for 1/16th inch accuracy.

Either don't use a tape measure at all, use a "story stick" (do a Google
search, preferably with the word "woodworking" in the search parameters), or
make sure you use the same tape for ALL measurements on the project.

Many old time woodworkers will use a "story stick" over a tape measure any
day. Here's a little bit about them, but there is much more, so do your own
googling:

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:... ct=clnk&cd=5

3) Routering dados in opposing pieces of wood (i.e. for the shelves) as
my router, even with a guide on the workpieces, wants to jump away from
the guide.

Get you to the store/library and find a good book on routing and learn the
proper direction to route in and this won't happen. A book would do you much
better than a longwinded explanation at this point.

Otherwise, I'm really enjoying woodworking and would like to get
better, and I think maybe a decent tape would be a start.

Use one tape measure and stick with it for all measurements on any single
project.

If you can, buy two identical ones from the same batch at the same time, and
double check that they are indeed identical as to measurement over their
entire length ... put one on your workbench and the other in your shop apron
pocket.

Welcome to the world of woodworking and enjoy yourself ... you've come to
the right place for tips and help.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/02/07

Andy wrote:
jo_jo wrote:
Or maybe someone can tell me how to use the two I have. The hook at
the end of the tape on both of mine (and every new one I picked up at
Lowes) has about a 1/16th inch of play.

I think the idea is that there's some play built in intentionally, to
account for the thickness of the hook. This way, if you measure an
inside length (i.e. push the end of the tape against something), or
measure the outside length (i.e. pull the hook against the end of a
board), the measurement SHOULD be the same. Sounds good in theory, at
least. My solutions to this problem generally involve trying to avoid
it: Use a combination square or drywall square or aluminum yardstick
when possible, measure the workpiece against the actual spot or other
workpiece where it needs to fit, or take all the tape measurements with
either a "push" or a "pull" on the hook end of the tape, so at least
they're consistent. I don't have one, but an old-fashoined folding
rule would solve your problem also - for example,
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,43513,43525
or http://tinyurl.com/ygf5fx

So far, the most frusterating parts of this project have been:

1) Ripping plywood on my small table saw (no telling how many safety
violations I committed doing this).

I'd rather use a circular saw - clamp a straightedge or plywood offcut
to your ply, and set it on the ground on a piece of styrofoam. No
trying to wrestle a whole sheet of ply over a little saw, just move a
different little saw over the sheet - easier and safer, therefore
probably more accurate. There are some good circ saw guides/jigs
available with a little googling.

2) Measuring for 1/16th inch accuracy.

As I mentioned above, I'd try a yardstick, or possibly a folding rule
or a storypole.

3) Routering dados in opposing pieces of wood (i.e. for the shelves) as
my router, even with a guide on the workpieces, wants to jump away from
the guide.

Try running your router the other direction along the guide - the
cutting of the bit on the wood should pull the router TOWARDS the
guide.

Otherwise, I'm really enjoying woodworking and would like to get
better, and I think maybe a decent tape would be a start.

Great! Have fun with it, and don't worry too much about a tape - in my
opinion, a tape is more of a construction tool, albiet one that's
sometimes useful for woodworking.
Good luck and stay safe,
Andy


Thanks for the tips. I understand the play in the tape now, but I am
still doing something wrong. I'll have to play around with it some
more (and yes I am taking into account the width of my saw blade when
making the cut). I know one error was measuring a hole at a slight
angle, but that should have resulted in my piece being a little longer,
not shorter. Anyways, thanks for the tips!

jo_jo wrote:
Or maybe someone can tell me how to use the two I have. The hook at
the end of the tape on both of mine (and every new one I picked up at
Lowes) has about a 1/16th inch of play. In other words, measuring a
board would be 1/16th longer than measuring the hole the board fits
into.


That play in the end hook is carefully controlled and is put there on
purpose. The amount of play should be exactly the same as the
thickness of the hook. That way, your reference surface on the hook
should end up at zero whether you are pushing or pulling on the hook.
Admittedly, it doesn't always come out that way in practice, but 1/16
is more error than any good tape should have. I like 1/2" wide tapes
for shop use. They lie flatter on the board so you don't have to worry
so much about the cup in the tape. And they fit better in my apron
pocket. I've never found a tape to be inacurate enough to cause me any
trouble, but I would expect a tape from Lee Valley, Lufkin or Starrett
to be more accurate than the house brand at the home center.


I have just recently got into woodworking and am building some built-in
bookshelves and facing in the shelves has been a pain due to this
1/16th. I doubt I've made a flush cut yet on the first try (not to
mention my miter saw fence needs to be adjusted. Anyways, the project
is proceeding, but for the drawers, I need to build them to fit each of
the holes I framed fairly accurately. I do my scribing and marking
with an exacto knife instead of a pencil, and for those cuts where I
mark the piece against the project, the cuts turn out fine.

Instead of using a tape for all your measurements, make yourself a
"story stick". Get yourself a stick of wood of appropriate length for
the project. Lots of people like them to be square, but I prefer mine
flat like a yardstick, but maybe not quite so wide. Carefully mark
each critical dimension on your story stick with your exacto knife and
label it with a marker. Now you don't have to remember whether your
drawers need to be 15 and 3/16 or 15 and 5/16; you just measure to the
scribed line marked "drawer width".



So far, the most frusterating parts of this project have been:

1) Ripping plywood on my small table saw (no telling how many safety
violations I committed doing this).

I have a big table saw with extension tables on one side and in back.
I still cut my plywood to rough dimensions with a circular saw and
guide, then do the final cut on the table saw. I just don't like
wrestling full-size plywood sheets on a table saw.

2) Measuring for 1/16th inch accuracy.

See my comments above.

3) Routering dados in opposing pieces of wood (i.e. for the shelves) as
my router, even with a guide on the workpieces, wants to jump away from
the guide.

Try making two or more passes, setting the bit deeper each time until
you get to final depth. Or, with a little more trouble, you can put a
guide down on both sides of the router. Cut a couple of blocks exactly
the width of your router. Clamp one guide in place and use the two
blocks to accurately space the other guide so the router will slide
between them.


Otherwise, I'm really enjoying woodworking and would like to get
better, and I think maybe a decent tape would be a start.

Buy one of these, and you'll have to stop blaming it on the tape.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...62&cat=1,43513

DonkeyHody
"In theory, theory and practice should be the same. But in practice,
they're not."

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message

but I would expect a tape from Lee Valley, Lufkin or Starrett
to be more accurate than the house brand at the home center.

Actually, the worst three tape measures I own are from Lee Valley!

... and it must have been a bad batch because all three hooks have a
pronounced tendency to slip on the workpiece _on the pull_, which is death
on accuracy, and, as a consequence, you really do end up with a 1/16 +/-
error!

They work good for inside measurements, though!

(Don't get me wrong, I love LV and I know they would take them back/replace
them, but I've just never bothered with the hassle of doing the return ...
mainly because I have a pair of Stanley ten footers that I've used for years
that are identical in measurement along their entire length ... a rarity.)

I bought the LV because the shop dummy cut a 1/4" deep kerf in the second
inch of one of the treasured Stanley's (it's still useable) and I was hoping
to replace them with some spiffy new "right handed" ones ... not meant to
be.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/02/07

"jo_jo" wrote in message
I know one error was measuring a hole at a slight
angle, but that should have resulted in my piece being a little longer,
not shorter. Anyways, thanks for the tips!

Depth of a hole or the width of the opening?. One is longer , the other is
shorter

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"jo_jo" wrote in message
I know one error was measuring a hole at a slight
angle, but that should have resulted in my piece being a little longer,
not shorter. Anyways, thanks for the tips!

Depth of a hole or the width of the opening?. One is longer , the other is
shorter

It really was while measuring the rails between the top facing and the
bottom facing on a bookshelf. And actually, it's not the bookshelf
facing, it's drawer facing. The built-in bookshelf is 14'6" long with
a row of 10 drawers along the bottom for dvd's, paperback books, etc.,
that I don't want displayed on the bookshelves. So far it's turned out
really well, although my openings for the drawers aren't exactly the
same size (+/- 1/4" at the most variance in drawer width). This won't
matter since I'll measure for each individual drawer that I will build.
This section of the bookshelf is about 19" deep and about 18" high.
It is topped with 5" wide yellow pine laid like the wood flooring in
the living room and lightly stained and oiled to match the floor. It's
turning out nice so far. The drawers and facing and shelving will be
painted the same color as the trim in the room, so that the separation
between the lower drawer unit and the shelving will be a nice natural
looking divider, and maybe even a good place to sit since the shelves
will only be 12.25" deep including the facing.

Swingman wrote:


Actually, the worst three tape measures I own are from Lee Valley!

I'm gonna have to stop recommending tools I haven't personally tried.
I've come to expect first quality from Lee Valley, but I don't have one
of their tapes. I did notice that the price didn't seem to be high
enough.

DonkeyHody
"In theory, theory and practice should be the same. But in practice,
they're not."

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message

Swingman wrote:


Actually, the worst three tape measures I own are from Lee Valley!

I'm gonna have to stop recommending tools I haven't personally tried.
I've come to expect first quality from Lee Valley, but I don't have one
of their tapes. I did notice that the price didn't seem to be high
enough.

I'm pretty sure that they're not all like that, otherwise we would of heard
more about it.

Like I said, I'm just thinking it was just a bad batch/run ... it happens to
the best, amongst which I firmly put LV.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/02/07

Swingman wrote:
"DonkeyHody" wrote in message

Swingman wrote:


Actually, the worst three tape measures I own are from Lee Valley!

I'm gonna have to stop recommending tools I haven't personally tried.
I've come to expect first quality from Lee Valley, but I don't have one
of their tapes. I did notice that the price didn't seem to be high
enough.

I'm pretty sure that they're not all like that, otherwise we would of heard
more about it.

Like I said, I'm just thinking it was just a bad batch/run ... it happens to
the best, amongst which I firmly put LV.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/02/07

They sure do look like Stanley tapes with a Lee Valley sticker.

jo_jo wrote:
Or maybe someone can tell me how to use the two I have.

Hide one of them. Doesn't matter that much how accurate your measure
is, so long as it's the only one you use. Most of your real practical
trouble begins when you measure the mortice on one rule and the tenon
on another.

OK, so this is an approximation. Accurate tapes aren't that hard to
find, certainly for "carpentry accuracy". However if you do have
inaccuracies to work around, it's still a good technique to only use
one measure.

Andy Dingley wrote:
Doesn't matter that much how accurate your measure
is, so long as it's the only one you use.


While I've never had an error I could blame on the inaccuracy of my
tape, I'll play Devil's advocate. I've read a couple of reviews and
posts where people claim two tapes agree at certain points, but
disagree at some points between. If you had a tape that was inaccurate
in that way, and you needed to cut three pieces 15 inches long to add
up to 45 inches, the inaccuracy would show up in the work. But I
suspect that the OP had problems other than an inaccurate tape.


DonkeyHody
"In theory, theory and practice should be the same. But in practice,
they're not."

"jo_jo" wrote in message

They sure do look like Stanley tapes with a Lee Valley sticker.

Not the same "feel" though ... they're actually lighter in heft than the
Stanley's by my judgment.

I'm not a big fan of current Stanley products, but one tape measure is as
good as another providing you use just the one on a project.

That said, it's very convenient in the shop to have two identical ones along
their entire lengths if you can find them, particularly when the agree with
your table saw fence, so the search is worth the while, IMO.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/02/07

While we are on the subject . . .
I was snooping around looking for tapes to satisfy my curiosity and
came across this tape that lies flat.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?O...Select=Details

It has no "standout", but that shouldn't be a problem for my use. You
know how annoying it is to try to get the cupped tape to roll down to
the wood so you can place your mark accurately. I use steel rules when
possible to avoid the problem. But a lie-flat tape has possibilities.
Then I read a review on Amazon that said his wasn't accurate by 3/32.
I couldn't live with that.

Has anybody used one?
Know where to get one in a name brand?

DonkeyHody
"Even an old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then."

In article ,
says...
"DonkeyHody" wrote in message

Swingman wrote:


Actually, the worst three tape measures I own are from Lee Valley!

I'm gonna have to stop recommending tools I haven't personally tried.
I've come to expect first quality from Lee Valley, but I don't have one
of their tapes. I did notice that the price didn't seem to be high
enough.

I'm pretty sure that they're not all like that, otherwise we would of heard
more about it.

Like I said, I'm just thinking it was just a bad batch/run ... it happens to
the best, amongst which I firmly put LV.


I picked up a Lee Valley tape a couple of years ago. I too have come
to expect such high quality from Lee Valley that I figured I could get
a good tape from them as well. I didn't care for the tape and it
immediately went into a drawer and it has never emerged since. The
markings were inaccurate and the overall feel was crappy. It felt very
low quality and cheap, and like another poster mentioned it was very
light.

I didn't bother to return it because I didn't feel like paying the
return shipping and sinking any more money in the thing.

Most Stanley tapes are too bulky for my tastes, and I don't need a 25'+
tape for woodworking use anyway. Their shorter tapes use a very narrow
tape that I don't care for either. I am currently using one I picked
up at the blue Borg that has a nice automatic locking mechanism,
although I don't know the brand. When I buy a new tape I bring the
rule from my Mitutoyo combination square and verify the accuracy of the
tape.

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message

Then I read a review on Amazon that said his wasn't accurate by 3/32.
I couldn't live with that.

As compared to what?

Relative "accuracy" makes no difference whatsoever as long as you use the
_one_ tape/measuring apparatus/story stick/marks on a board, for a project.

Has anybody used one?
Know where to get one in a name brand?

I use Rockler's for precision layouts marks of a "story stick" natu

http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/CrftsManCh4.JPG

... IOW, once the marks are made on the "story stick" (in this case the
chair leg template), it becomes "the judge" for those locations for the rest
of the project and the flat tape goes back in the drawer.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/02/07

On 4 Jan 2007 10:52:18 -0800, "jo_jo" wrote:

Or maybe someone can tell me how to use the two I have. The hook at
the end of the tape on both of mine (and every new one I picked up at
Lowes) has about a 1/16th inch of play. In other words, measuring a
board would be 1/16th longer than measuring the hole the board fits
into.

I have just recently got into woodworking and am building some built-in
bookshelves and facing in the shelves has been a pain due to this
1/16th. I doubt I've made a flush cut yet on the first try (not to
mention my miter saw fence needs to be adjusted. Anyways, the project
is proceeding, but for the drawers, I need to build them to fit each of
the holes I framed fairly accurately. I do my scribing and marking
with an exacto knife instead of a pencil, and for those cuts where I
mark the piece against the project, the cuts turn out fine.

So far, the most frusterating parts of this project have been:

1) Ripping plywood on my small table saw (no telling how many safety
violations I committed doing this).
2) Measuring for 1/16th inch accuracy.
3) Routering dados in opposing pieces of wood (i.e. for the shelves) as
my router, even with a guide on the workpieces, wants to jump away from
the guide.

Otherwise, I'm really enjoying woodworking and would like to get
better, and I think maybe a decent tape would be a start.


The slop in the hook is equal to the thickness of the hook, so that
you can use the tape to measure inside and outside measurements.

Too many guys forget this and let their tape snap into the housing
when bringing it into the case from its extended position. First the
tape gets less accurate and then the hook snaps off. You need to
feather it down as it retracts.

If you are working by yourself and always use the same measuring
device, it doesn't matter how accurate the device is because it is
self referent.

If you are working with other guys, like on a trim crew, it's up to
the lead to take the tapes and tweak the hooks so that all the tapes
measure the same.

A more accurate measuring tool is a folding rule, if it is a good one.
I still have a couple of six foot and one eight foot Lufkins that are
as on as they were thirty years ago when I bought them.

The best idea in making items that have repeating parts is to measure
as little as possible. Set your cutting device to cut one dimension
and cut every part that uses that dimension with the same setup. This
is part of the beauty of a cutting list. It will help you organize
your project into objects that are dimensionally equivalent and, once
these are identified, you will get the repeatability that you need for
your boxes to fit together right. Work from the largest pieces to the
smallest and you will have a second chance to use the pieces that you
butch.






Regards,

Tom Watson (Fairly Unbalanced)

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Tom Watson" wrote in message

The best idea in making items that have repeating parts is to measure
as little as possible. Set your cutting device to cut one dimension
and cut every part that uses that dimension with the same setup. This
is part of the beauty of a cutting list. It will help you organize
your project into objects that are dimensionally equivalent and, once
these are identified, you will get the repeatability that you need for
your boxes to fit together right. Work from the largest pieces to the
smallest and you will have a second chance to use the pieces that you
butch.

The holy grail of woodworking (SQUARE) ... encapsulated in the above. Cast
it in stone, ye non-believers, for they are words from the Mount!!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 1/02/07

On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 13:46:15 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message

but I would expect a tape from Lee Valley, Lufkin or Starrett
to be more accurate than the house brand at the home center.

Actually, the worst three tape measures I own are from Lee Valley!

... and it must have been a bad batch because all three hooks have a
pronounced tendency to slip on the workpiece _on the pull_, which is death
on accuracy, and, as a consequence, you really do end up with a 1/16 +/-
error!

Hmm, well you made me run down and check mine. Probably something I
shoulda done before I started measuring with them. I got two 10'ers,
one for the shop and one for in the house. One of them goes out a
1/64th or so between the 2" and 3" marks, the other is good at least
up to 24". Of course I had the one that was off in the shop. They do
have a smaller hook than I'm used to and do tend to slip off if you
pull with the tape not down flat. I still reach for my stanley 16'
anyway unless some idiot left it at the other end of the shop again,
but it has metric on one side which is inconvenient sometimes.


-Leuf

well, you're wrong and you're right. you already go brought up to speed
on why the hook is loose, so I'll leave that alone.

tape measures are not high precision instruments, and they can be out
enough to matter in some critical applications. pretty much the best
ones on the market for most kinds of wood trades are the ones made by
stanley, though most of the ones you'll find for sale for above about
$8 are gonna be pretty much the same. so if you need better accuracy
that a tape measure can give you, go down to the machinist's supply
house and buy a nice hardened steel rule. and bring lots of cash-
you'll need it.otherwise, give up on using numbers to represent
distances and start using story poles. then you can be exactly as
accurate as you need to be in any given situation.... and best of all,
for free.

DonkeyHody wrote:
jo_jo wrote:
Or maybe someone can tell me how to use the two I have. The hook at
the end of the tape on both of mine (and every new one I picked up at
Lowes) has about a 1/16th inch of play. In other words, measuring a
board would be 1/16th longer than measuring the hole the board fits
into.


That play in the end hook is carefully controlled and is put there on
purpose. The amount of play should be exactly the same as the
thickness of the hook. That way, your reference surface on the hook
should end up at zero whether you are pushing or pulling on the hook.
Admittedly, it doesn't always come out that way in practice, but 1/16
is more error than any good tape should have. I like 1/2" wide tapes
for shop use. They lie flatter on the board so you don't have to worry
so much about the cup in the tape. And they fit better in my apron
pocket. I've never found a tape to be inacurate enough to cause me any
trouble, but I would expect a tape from Lee Valley, Lufkin or Starrett
to be more accurate than the house brand at the home center.


I have just recently got into woodworking and am building some built-in
bookshelves and facing in the shelves has been a pain due to this
1/16th. I doubt I've made a flush cut yet on the first try (not to
mention my miter saw fence needs to be adjusted. Anyways, the project
is proceeding, but for the drawers, I need to build them to fit each of
the holes I framed fairly accurately. I do my scribing and marking
with an exacto knife instead of a pencil, and for those cuts where I
mark the piece against the project, the cuts turn out fine.

Instead of using a tape for all your measurements, make yourself a
"story stick". Get yourself a stick of wood of appropriate length for
the project. Lots of people like them to be square, but I prefer mine
flat like a yardstick, but maybe not quite so wide. Carefully mark
each critical dimension on your story stick with your exacto knife and
label it with a marker. Now you don't have to remember whether your
drawers need to be 15 and 3/16 or 15 and 5/16; you just measure to the
scribed line marked "drawer width".



So far, the most frusterating parts of this project have been:

1) Ripping plywood on my small table saw (no telling how many safety
violations I committed doing this).

I have a big table saw with extension tables on one side and in back.
I still cut my plywood to rough dimensions with a circular saw and
guide, then do the final cut on the table saw. I just don't like
wrestling full-size plywood sheets on a table saw.

2) Measuring for 1/16th inch accuracy.

See my comments above.

3) Routering dados in opposing pieces of wood (i.e. for the shelves) as
my router, even with a guide on the workpieces, wants to jump away from
the guide.

Try making two or more passes, setting the bit deeper each time until
you get to final depth. Or, with a little more trouble, you can put a
guide down on both sides of the router. Cut a couple of blocks exactly
the width of your router. Clamp one guide in place and use the two
blocks to accurately space the other guide so the router will slide
between them.


Otherwise, I'm really enjoying woodworking and would like to get
better, and I think maybe a decent tape would be a start.

Buy one of these, and you'll have to stop blaming it on the tape.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...62&cat=1,43513

DonkeyHody
"In theory, theory and practice should be the same. But in practice,
they're not."

Well, now that I get home, I pulled both the tape measures. Both of
the ends move by an amount that is easily greater than the thickness of
the hook. One is very old, so I might expect that, but the other is
practially brand new, a "TaskForce" tape. The TaskForce moves about
twice as much as the thickness of the hook.

In any case, I just marked the styles against the actual hole to make
the mark. Those turned out better, and I'll take the advice several of
you offered and find a metal yard stick or something similar.

On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 15:57:59 -0800, DonkeyHody wrote:

While we are on the subject . . .
I was snooping around looking for tapes to satisfy my curiosity and
came across this tape that lies flat.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?O...Select=Details

It has no "standout", but that shouldn't be a problem for my use. You
know how annoying it is to try to get the cupped tape to roll down to
the wood so you can place your mark accurately. I use steel rules when
possible to avoid the problem. But a lie-flat tape has possibilities.
Then I read a review on Amazon that said his wasn't accurate by 3/32.
I couldn't live with that.

Has anybody used one?
Know where to get one in a name brand?

The "name brand" is "Fastcap", Woodcraft, McFeelys, and just about
everybody stocks them. I haven't noticed any more inaccuracy in mine than
in any other tape. Note that the lie-flat tape can get bent easily for
some reason.

The one guy on Amazon seems to have gotten a bad one.


DonkeyHody
"Even an old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then."

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

wrote:

well, you're wrong and you're right. you already go brought up to speed
on why the hook is loose, so I'll leave that alone.

tape measures are not high precision instruments, and they can be out
enough to matter in some critical applications.

snip

This accuracy discussion brings to mind my class in surveying a long
time ago.

Back then accuracy was defined to 3 decimal accuracy.

Making a 100 ft measurement with a partner, a couple of plumb bobs and
a tape was a very interesting exercise.

Included with all the other variables was tape tension.

Too much tension, the tape could be made to stretch.

Too little tension, the tape would sag.

Both represented errors.

And then there were the gals would would sun bathe on the roof of the
building across the street from the surveying lot, but we won't go there.



Lew

In article , Tom Watson
wrote:

The best idea in making items that have repeating parts is to measure
as little as possible. Set your cutting device to cut one dimension
and cut every part that uses that dimension with the same setup. This
is part of the beauty of a cutting list. It will help you organize
your project into objects that are dimensionally equivalent and, once
these are identified, you will get the repeatability that you need for
your boxes to fit together right. Work from the largest pieces to the
smallest and you will have a second chance to use the pieces that you
butch.

TESTIFY!

jo_jo wrote:

Or maybe someone can tell me how to use the two I have.**The*hook*at
the end of the tape on both of mine (and every new one I picked up at
Lowes) has about a 1/16th inch of play.**In*other*words,*measuring*a
board would be 1/16th longer than measuring the hole the board fits
into.

Since a lot of other folks have explained inside/outside measurements to you,
I'll merely ask if anyone on this group feels like researching how many times
this question has come up. I can remember at least twice before, and I think
both were fairly recently, but since my aging brain is creeping towards
senility I'm not sure of that - my wife says it's more like running than
creeping :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

On Thu, 04 Jan 2007 21:57:21 -0800, Larry Blanchard
wrote:

jo_jo wrote:

Or maybe someone can tell me how to use the two I have.**The*hook*at
the end of the tape on both of mine (and every new one I picked up at
Lowes) has about a 1/16th inch of play.**In*other*words,*measuring*a
board would be 1/16th longer than measuring the hole the board fits
into.

Since a lot of other folks have explained inside/outside measurements to you,
I'll merely ask if anyone on this group feels like researching how many times
this question has come up. I can remember at least twice before, and I think
both were fairly recently, but since my aging brain is creeping towards
senility I'm not sure of that - my wife says it's more like running than
creeping :-).

I don't recall it recently, but I do recall it coming up on the show
"While you were out" where the carpenter was trying to explain it to
the host, who wouldn't believe a word of it. The carpenter eventually
gave up and went back to work. I think we all had to have it
explained to us at some point, and we all went "duh" once we got it.
But this guy was just having none of it.


-Leuf

J. Clarke wrote:

The "name brand" is "Fastcap"

I have a few versions of those, and I really like them.

I have a 16 ft. "Lie Flat", a 16 ft. "Story Pole,a nd a 25 footer. They
were ~ $7, and I'd buy 'em again when these break.

I also a "CenterPoint" 16 ft. center finding tape that I really liked.

Fastcap...excellent...very limp but is great for layouts on
a flat surface. They also have a few more flavors...

http://www.fastcap.com/prod2.asp?page=procarp_flat

Crummy web site but excellent products...


DonkeyHody wrote:

While we are on the subject . . .
I was snooping around looking for tapes to satisfy my curiosity and
came across this tape that lies flat.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?O...Select=Details

Pat Barber wrote:
Fastcap...excellent...very limp but is great for layouts on
a flat surface. They also have a few more flavors...

http://www.fastcap.com/prod2.asp?page=procarp_flat

Crummy web site but excellent products...



Thanks guys, I think I'll give it a try.

DonkeyHody
"Even an old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then."

I put very little stock in Amazon reviews. An inordinately high percentage
of the reviewers seem to be deserving of the nickname "Bozo".

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...

The one guy on Amazon seems to have gotten a bad one.

In article . net,
says...
I put very little stock in Amazon reviews. An inordinately high percentage
of the reviewers seem to be deserving of the nickname "Bozo".

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...

The one guy on Amazon seems to have gotten a bad one.




I love when one of those 'bozos' says "This is a fantastic tool, but it
was missing a minor piece, so I had the company send me a replacement,
and so I give it 2 stars".

Sure it's annoying to have some minor problem that needs to be
resolved, but to give a tool a low overall rating based on that is
misleading.

On 4 Jan 2007 12:24:09 -0800, "jo_jo" scribed:


Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"jo_jo" wrote in message
I know one error was measuring a hole at a slight
angle, but that should have resulted in my piece being a little longer,
not shorter. Anyways, thanks for the tips!

Depth of a hole or the width of the opening?. One is longer , the other is
shorter

It really was while measuring the rails between the top facing and the
bottom facing on a bookshelf. And actually, it's not the bookshelf
facing, it's drawer facing. The built-in bookshelf is 14'6" long with
a row of 10 drawers along the bottom for dvd's, paperback books, etc.,
that I don't want displayed on the bookshelves. So far it's turned out
really well, although my openings for the drawers aren't exactly the
same size (+/- 1/4" at the most variance in drawer width). This won't
matter since I'll measure for each individual drawer that I will build.
This section of the bookshelf is about 19" deep and about 18" high.
It is topped with 5" wide yellow pine laid like the wood flooring in
the living room and lightly stained and oiled to match the floor. It's
turning out nice so far. The drawers and facing and shelving will be
painted the same color as the trim in the room, so that the separation
between the lower drawer unit and the shelving will be a nice natural
looking divider, and maybe even a good place to sit since the shelves
will only be 12.25" deep including the facing.

Jesbus! If you just got into woodworking, a 14 foot wide project would
be a bit more to chew than maybe a shelf or small cabinet... That's
half the size of my bloody living room! No wonder your asking for
tips.

I have some pretty good tools and would shake my head at that project,
especially with drawers where you need alignment and at least some
basic joinery skills. Cutting dados ain't fun without the right tools.

As far as the tape question is... Use it for rough cuts like building
a roof or something with 2x4. Not for joinery or cabinet work. I use
a nice 48" aluminum square for long rips and a small (18") combination
square for precision stuff like cabinetry work.

Also, make sure your mitre saw is aligned and sharp.

Best,

Phred

"jo_jo" wrote in message
oups.com...
Or maybe someone can tell me how to use the two I have. The hook at
the end of the tape on both of mine (and every new one I picked up at
Lowes) has about a 1/16th inch of play. In other words, measuring a
board would be 1/16th longer than measuring the hole the board fits
into.

You could make one...
http://www.colonialwilliamsburg.org/...ay06/tools.cfm

Alternatively and easier would be to not measure with a ruler. Use a story
stick. Or, use two sticks that can be laid next to each other with one end
of each stick touching the inside of the sides of your case, and then place
a mark across both sticks. The sticks can be laid on your stock in the same
relationship to each other and the length marked on your stock...

John

I have a nice Starrett tape measure that I trust for
accuracy. But a tape measure is inherently not an accurate
measuring device. I use a solid rule and something butted
against the end so I know it's precisely placed,
or a square.

jo_jo wrote:
Or maybe someone can tell me how to use the two I have. The hook at
the end of the tape on both of mine (and every new one I picked up at
Lowes) has about a 1/16th inch of play. In other words, measuring a
board would be 1/16th longer than measuring the hole the board fits
into.

jo_jo wrote:

Or maybe someone can tell me how to use the two I have. The hook at
the end of the tape on both of mine (and every new one I picked up at
Lowes) has about a 1/16th inch of play. In other words, measuring a
board would be 1/16th longer than measuring the hole the board fits
into.

You can always make the problem go away, use the "10" mark as "0".

Not nearly as convenient, but it has worked for me for a lot of years.

Lew

In article ,
says...

There's the old saying "burn an inch" to avoid using the hook. It's
very easy to cut parts one inch short when burning an inch.

Been there, done that.

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 19:18:19 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:


You can always make the problem go away, use the "10" mark as "0".

Great point!

There's the old saying "burn an inch" to avoid using the hook. It's
very easy to cut parts one inch short when burning an inch.

Burning 10 makes the errors very apparent before the cut!

I have a bunch of tapes, but always use just *one* for each project. It's
usually the orange one, but not always. No problems. Am I missing
something? g

-- Mark

B A R R Y wrote:

Great point!

There's the old saying "burn an inch" to avoid using the hook. It's
very easy to cut parts one inch short when burning an inch.

Burning 10 makes the errors very apparent before the cut!

Keeps the math simple, I don't have a problem doing a mental calculation
that involves adding "10".

Lew