After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are 60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?

tell them that you want 1/32 accuracy

Just how many "Bittys and itty bittys" is that?


"Wwj2110" wrote in message
...
tell them that you want 1/32 accuracy

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice
that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are
60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?


Maybe you should re evaluate what you are paying the help.

JTMcC.

Give potential employees an IQ test. Ignorance can be cured...

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.



"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice
that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are
60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?

Every once in a while I get in a hurry and will the wrong side of the
tape.... you know there are two 48 1/2 inches on a tape measure!! I had a
night school shop instructor who ask his high school day students how many
64ths in an inch, he got answers from 5 to 10,000......

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 21:48:42 -0500, "Tom Gardner"
brought forth from the murky depths:

Just how many "Bittys and itty bittys" is that?

Ask Vern Nier. He knows about those things.


--------------------------------------------------------
Murphy was an Optimist
----------------------------
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

how far off did they miss by? you sure the tape measure they used was even
worth a crap? some tools like tape measures wear out and should be thrown
out. get some stock then give them a test using the tape measure they used,
if theirs shows a different measurement then toss them and let them use
yours.

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice
that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are
60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 21:28:18 -0500, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are 60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?

Yeah, hire me. No, wait a minute, I don't want to work. Forget I
said anything.


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

There are several tape measures made with the 1/16ths marked. I bought one
for one of my guys. Here is a site:
http://www.neboproducts.com/tools/vi...y=2&pid=120209

I have also had to say "one little mark under 3/4" .

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice
that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are
60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 21:28:18 -0500, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are 60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?

Make them supply their own digital tapemeasures. And send them to an
optometrist to get their eyes checked. If they already have glasses,
teach them how to clean them.

If after these three steps have been taken they still cannot read the
tapemeasures, I guess it's pension time.

Had an uncle build a 65ft steel hull boat in his back yard. To cut down
confusion he would say something like this: "cut it seventeen,eleven,seven"
That meant seventeen feet,eleven inches, and 7/8th of an inch.Worked pretty
good with few mistakes.

I would say to some one that didn't work in metal that tape measures are for
carpenters and the best you can expect is 1/8" accuracy.
That being said I use tape measures often to rough cut bar stock, so I have
given some thought to this.

Accurate tape measure lay out has two issues, accuracy and lay out
technique.

Accuracy
A tape measure is a step above a yard stick in accuracy. The tape measure
has a hook that defines the point that the measurement starts from but has
big fat lines that define the increments of measure.
The typical tape has as it's finest division 1/16" (0.0625).
You are asking for lay out at the absolute limit of accuracy of the gage
supplied.

Technique
Okay, so maybe you want +/- 1/16"
That is reasonable, 2x limit of accurate measure, but how do you mark the
measurement?
A pencil and by eye?
Where does the scale define the point from which the measure should be
marked?
If you use the scale on the tape, the division lines are ~.02" wide and use
a blunt marking instrument will be a problem.
An imprecise scale and an imprecise marking tool would be for me with my
eyes at my age ( 50 ) a problem if there was pressure to hurry up and get it
done.

My solution:

I am a big fan of the Starred digital tape measure.
It reads to .05" in inch and 1 mm (~.040") in metric.
It calibrates the point of measure, from the hook to the body of the
housing, well enough for me, I find it to be about accurate to .025" and .5
mm (~.02") ymmv.
That covers the issue of accuracy
As to how to lay it out...
The problem with a tape measure is marking the point of measurement.
I use a shop square to determine the point of measurement, defined as the
distance from the hook to the body and make the mark with a sharp point.
hope you don't fire anyone
Kent
Where in Ohio is Ohio Brush?


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice
that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are
60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?

Since we are on the subject of tape measures....what do the diamonds
reference on the tape?
Thanks
Dominick
--
Dominick Fiumare Email:
Facilities & Services Voice: 505-646-2529
New Mexico State Univ., Box 30001, MSC 3545 Fax: 505-646-1269
Las Cruces, NM 88003

A lady came in to my store one day and said, "I want this window shade cut
to two inches less than 27 inches." I said, "Do you mean 25 inches?" She
said, "No, I mean two of those LITTLE inches."

get metric tape measures
if you can see them you can read them
much easier than the old foot and inch system that you use


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice
that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are
60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?

"Ben Shank" wrote in message
link.net...
Every once in a while I get in a hurry and will the wrong side of the
tape.... you know there are two 48 1/2 inches on a tape measure!! I had a
night school shop instructor who ask his high school day students how many
64ths in an inch, he got answers from 5 to 10,000......

I do that, too, Ben, and I can read a scale (including 64th's) with no
trouble. Depends on how I'm holding my tape it seems. Sigh!

Harold

Tom,
Please consider that the fault may be in the procedure. It is common that
there can be in excess of .25" from tape measure to tape measure. If you
then add that to different individual techniques and marking methods, you
can have unacceptable error. To have one idiot in a group is plausible. To
have 3 idiots in a group is possible, but highly unlikely. Establish the
standard tool and the method of measurement.
Steve
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice
that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are
60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 21:28:18 -0500, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are 60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?


If they are about a 1/2" short then the tape is hanging up where the
tab is loosely rivited on. They need to double check that every time
, not half the time , every time they mark something.

Sometimes you need to start f-ing throwing the scraped parts around
the shop to get their attention , even if its just an act. That or
just tell them that they just might not get their check on Fri. and go
ahead and call the cops.

You could try this , some/alot of people don't understand this.

1/1 = 1 2/2=1 4/4=1 8/8=1 16/16=1

1/4 is only one of 4 to one. 2/4 is half way to one or can be reduced
down to see that its 1/2 or one half of one.

It might not be worth going into about say 5/8's is 1/2 + 1/8 if they
don't understand how to change fractions so they look like they see.
I would make up some huge one inch scales and give them 5 to take home
and study. And a number of examples of how to find say 13/16's
without counting thirteen itty bitties. Give them some home work so
they can manipulate the fractions like 8/16's , 4/16's , and 9/16's so
they can come back with different examples of how they can be
perceived. Like how many quarters plus how many eights and how many
sixteenths does it take to get X . After they get that then and only
then have them do the home work backwards , like how far under 3/4 is
X.

My problem is that I'm too cheap to toss my tapes and hunt all over
town to find one that is marked right. All the ones I run across have
the lines the same length which just drives me crazy while baking in
130 heat or freezing or windy and my hair getting in the way. I've
been reduced to marking the right spot with a sharpy and trying to
wipe it off when I'm done. Hey, it took me about 3 stores to find a
magic marker ! I had to bitch about how a hardware store doesn't
carry cement or magic markers to a hardware store to find out that
they are called sharpies now. Kinda like asking for real to real tape
, "real tape?" That took about 15 stores to find. That reminds me ,
I need to see if those old sealed tapes are good or not.

Good luck... There are alot of people that don't understand
fractions. Maybe they make mechanical scale tapes ? Metric,
I don't know , never really looked at that side. My wife always makes
too much to eat ( great cook BTW) cause she doesn't know what half of
2/3's is. )

I'll look and see if one of my books explains the scale in a neat way
, but I don't think they will.

In article ,
Dominick Fiumara "dominic"@ nmsu . edu wrote:

Since we are on the subject of tape measures....what do the diamonds
reference on the tape?
Thanks
Dominick

Probably 16" increments for stud spacing.

--
free men own guns - slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice
that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are
60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?


1. Convert everything to metric. You will still get mistakes, but they will
be different mistakes. A change is as good as a rest, right?
2. Threaten to convert everything to metric, unless they learn to read their
tapes properly. Most people intensely dislike change, even if it may be for
the better.
2. Do the buddy system. For critical measurements, on person marks it out,
then another person checks it. After the the second person checks it, the
first person pop marks it (if appropriate). All marks that are NOT popped,
are not to be trusted.
3. Better living through technology ELECTRONIC digital tape measure. As
to who pays for it, that's something I think you have to work out with your
own employees. Maybe, if they buy the tape, you supply the batteries?
4. For jobs where you can afford mistakes, the person who makes a certain
feature a certain size, records the actual measurement on a second drawing
supplied with the job, or an "inspection record".

FWIW, we had a high school physics teacher, who managed to waffle on for an
hour, on the proper technique for using a yardstick.

Sometimes the diamonds also denote door and window rough opening sizes.

the small black diamonds give 19.2" centers. A little used layout that
gives 4 bays in 8'. Used most often for roof trusses.


"Dominick Fiumara" "dominic"@ nmsu . edu wrote in message
...
Since we are on the subject of tape measures....what do the diamonds
reference on the tape?
Thanks
Dominick
--
Dominick Fiumare Email:
Facilities & Services Voice: 505-646-2529
New Mexico State Univ., Box 30001, MSC 3545 Fax: 505-646-1269
Las Cruces, NM 88003

no...those are marked in red. Maybe I'll post this question to the
woodworking NG.
Thanks
Dominick
--
Dominick Fiumare Email:
Facilities & Services Voice: 505-646-2529
New Mexico State Univ., Box 30001, MSC 3545 Fax: 505-646-1269
Las Cruces, NM 88003

Feet, inches and eights is the traditional method of marking distance on
the table of offsets that describes the hull shape. In the lofting
floor a reader would call out "Plus Ten, three,five,plus " and the
lofters crawl to the next station and measure up 10' 3 11/16" from the
waterline marking the point. Now days the computers spit out
instructions to plotters in some unknown language to turn out mylars.

Mike wrote:
Had an uncle build a 65ft steel hull boat in his back yard. To cut down
confusion he would say something like this: "cut it seventeen,eleven,seven"
That meant seventeen feet,eleven inches, and 7/8th of an inch.Worked pretty
good with few mistakes.




--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on
notice that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They
are 60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me.
I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill
is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this
path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach
this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I
only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?

I feel your pain. Can't help with the problem, but I do have a good
story that's barely related..... ;-)

Told to me by an 80 plus year old machinist --- seems many years ago he
was given a drawing with exact specifications for a very important part.
Spent a bunch of time making it just right. The part fit in a socket on
something near the ceiling in a high-tech installation. Since he'd built
the part, he was carried by crane way up to put it in. Men in white lab
coats gathered below in anticipation. But the part was a half-inch too
big and wouldn't fit in the socket. The machinist yells down to the
ground with the bad news, causing a white-coat huddle to discuss the
problem. They finally reach their decision, and holler up their plan
........ TRY IT AGAIN!

The old guy told the story a lot better than I did here, and I was in
tears when he got to the end.

Wayne

Since we are on the subject of tape measures....what do the diamonds
reference on the tape?

Dominick,
The diamonds are for framing walls. Standard walls are on 16" centers.
You can use the 19" 3/16 diamonds on non structral walls.16" = 6 studs
per 8' wall 19" 3/16 = 5 studs per wall. If you are framing 1000's of
feet of walls large savings


Remember the early bird gets the worm, BUT it's the second mouse that
gets the cheese

George

"Sunworshiper" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 21:28:18 -0500, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice
that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are
60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach
this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I
only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?


If they are about a 1/2" short then the tape is hanging up where the
tab is loosely rivited on. They need to double check that every time
, not half the time , every time they mark something.

Typically a framing crew will cross check tapes at least once. If it's a
problem with the tape measures, have a steel ruler that they can check the
tape against where ever the tapes are stored.

I could have sworn there is a 1/16" marked tape or ruler out there. After
some digging, I found Woodcraft has a steel ruler marked with 1/16 but most
are marked 1/64ths. And before anyone says they're all marked with 1/16s I
mean it actually has the 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14. Then you could tell the
guys 4" and 12 or such.
www.woodcraft.com
But I looked at the photos and they're too small to make out the detail like
the catalog.

Ok, here's a tape measure that has fractions printed on it:
http://www.asktooltalk.com/home/general/ultimate.html
Ok, that might only have 1/8s I found a better pictu
http://www.brucemedical.com/eastoreadlar1.html

I found several sewing tape measures which only have the 1/16" lines on it.
(yahoo search on "tape measure" large numbers)

You might try a teaching store I believe ruler was taught 2nd or 3rd grade.
They should have materials.

(yahoo search on 'reading a ruler')
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/58333.html
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/58439.html
('how to read a ruler')
http://www.woodzone.com/articles/Read_A_Ruler.htm
http://www.rickyspears.com/rulergame/

If it's fractions they're having trouble with I'm sure some searching would
turn up some good sites.

Joel. phx

It's been a real learing experiance with kids in gradeschool. Wait till
your kid asks about grammar. I had to go online to look up what
independent/depend clauses were. 4th grade stuff. Spelling words that are
usually caught by 'spell check'....


Sometimes you need to start f-ing throwing the scraped parts around
the shop to get their attention , even if its just an act. That or
just tell them that they just might not get their check on Fri. and go
ahead and call the cops.

You could try this , some/alot of people don't understand this.

1/1 = 1 2/2=1 4/4=1 8/8=1 16/16=1

1/4 is only one of 4 to one. 2/4 is half way to one or can be reduced
down to see that its 1/2 or one half of one.

It might not be worth going into about say 5/8's is 1/2 + 1/8 if they
don't understand how to change fractions so they look like they see.
I would make up some huge one inch scales and give them 5 to take home
and study. And a number of examples of how to find say 13/16's
without counting thirteen itty bitties. Give them some home work so
they can manipulate the fractions like 8/16's , 4/16's , and 9/16's so
they can come back with different examples of how they can be
perceived. Like how many quarters plus how many eights and how many
sixteenths does it take to get X . After they get that then and only
then have them do the home work backwards , like how far under 3/4 is
X.

My problem is that I'm too cheap to toss my tapes and hunt all over
town to find one that is marked right. All the ones I run across have
the lines the same length which just drives me crazy while baking in
130 heat or freezing or windy and my hair getting in the way. I've
been reduced to marking the right spot with a sharpy and trying to
wipe it off when I'm done. Hey, it took me about 3 stores to find a
magic marker ! I had to bitch about how a hardware store doesn't
carry cement or magic markers to a hardware store to find out that
they are called sharpies now. Kinda like asking for real to real tape
, "real tape?" That took about 15 stores to find. That reminds me ,
I need to see if those old sealed tapes are good or not.

Reel?


Good luck... There are alot of people that don't understand
fractions. Maybe they make mechanical scale tapes ? Metric,
I don't know , never really looked at that side. My wife always makes
too much to eat ( great cook BTW) cause she doesn't know what half of
2/3's is. )

I'll look and see if one of my books explains the scale in a neat way
, but I don't think they will.

Don't wait a month. And test the new-hires first day.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 21:28:18 -0500, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are 60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?

In article , Wayne Bengtsson
says...

1. Convert everything to metric. You will still get mistakes, but they will
be different mistakes. A change is as good as a rest, right?
2. Threaten to convert everything to metric, unless they learn to read their
tapes properly. Most people intensely dislike change, even if it may be for
the better.
2. Do the buddy system. For critical measurements, on person marks it out,
then another person checks it. After the the second person checks it, the
first person pop marks it (if appropriate). All marks that are NOT popped,
are not to be trusted.
3. Better living through technology ELECTRONIC digital tape measure. As
to who pays for it, that's something I think you have to work out with your
own employees. Maybe, if they buy the tape, you supply the batteries?
4. For jobs where you can afford mistakes, the person who makes a certain
feature a certain size, records the actual measurement on a second drawing
supplied with the job, or an "inspection record".

Yes. All of these (well, with the possible exception of the
'metric threat') are excellent ideas.

Most shop require critical dimensions on finished parts to
be personally accountable to one operator. Where I used
to work at night, each part had five or ten dimensions that
were toleranced, and every ten parts every one of those
had to be measured, and written down, and initialed.
Some of this stuff was +/- 0.005 mm btw. In nylon)

Because most of the jobs were long enough, they outlasted
a shift, and the new shift coming on would immediately
double check the outgoing shift's measurements.

The most important thing for managment to do when dealing
with metrology issues of any kind is:

1) provide accurate, calibrated measuring tools that are
2) easy to use and simple to read.
3) identify those who cannot use them and either
4) train them, or
5) remove them from jobs requiring measuring.

and most important, foster the concept that the
MOST important thing is not ship out-of-tolerance
parts. There has to be an enviroment where anyone
can call out wrong-sized parts, and be sure they
won't get yelled at.

Where I used to work, even if a guy worked all night
long making parts, and on the *last* one, realized
he did the previous 500 parts with an incorrect
dimentions, he KNEW that it's better to call the
foreman and leave a note, rather than try to cover
it up somehow.

Call and say, 'hey I screwed up' was met with a
much better reaction than if the outgoing inspection
revealed the problem, or heaven forbid, they missed
it, and the *customer* called and said - "hey this
stuff don't FIT!!"

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 06:27:54 -0700, Dominick Fiumara "dominic"@ nmsu
.. edu brought forth from the murky depths:

no...those are marked in red. Maybe I'll post this question to the
woodworking NG.

http://www.asktooltalk.com/home/qand...apemeasure.htm


--------------------------------------------------------
Murphy was an Optimist
----------------------------
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 09:54:16 -0800, Roy
brought forth from the murky depths:

Been there, done that. How about the new guy hired to run the
main cut off saw. A week later we discovered that he did not know
the difference between eights and sixteenths. We lucked out, he
only cut a couple orders short, those were rough cuts for blanks
and we could salvage all of it. Whew!!

Anyway, my suggestions:
1) Go through the shop and replace ALL the tape inserts (yours
and employees) with new ones with sixteenths marked. The inserts
are cheap, buy them by the dozen, replace every 3 to 6 months.
Forbid any non standard tapes to be in the place.

Also, check each tape against the rest. One of the woodworking mags
had an article a couple years ago about the nasty inaccuracies of
tapes, even within a given line. I couldn't find it this morning.


2) Since it was the older guys that screwed up, send them to the
optomistrist for new glasses. You might also have to put brighter
lights in their work areas. Ask me how I know this!

Having just bought 2 new pairs of eyes, I can totally relate.



--------------------------------------------------------
Murphy was an Optimist
----------------------------
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

Been there, done that. How about the new guy hired to run the
main cut off saw. A week later we discovered that he did not know
the difference between eights and sixteenths. We lucked out, he
only cut a couple orders short, those were rough cuts for blanks
and we could salvage all of it. Whew!!

Anyway, my suggestions:
1) Go through the shop and replace ALL the tape inserts (yours
and employees) with new ones with sixteenths marked. The inserts
are cheap, buy them by the dozen, replace every 3 to 6 months.
Forbid any non standard tapes to be in the place.
2) Since it was the older guys that screwed up, send them to the
optomistrist for new glasses. You might also have to put brighter
lights in their work areas. Ask me how I know this!
3) Get a good graphic of a tape measure with the same sixteenths
that the tapes have. Post a big one on the wall, smaller ones
above the cutoff saw and other critical spots. The graphic should
have ALL 16 marks shown as eg 3/16, 5/8, etc. Even better would
be to have all the major ones specified as 3/4"= 6/8" = 12/16"
4) Be prepared to downgrade (not fire) someone who does not try
to improve.
5) Peer pressure also works. I had a major screwup that was only
noticed after plating and shipment to the customer. Flaw was not
reworkable. Had the parts sent back, dropped off in the CENTER of
the shop, near the break room. Assigned the guy who drilled the
parts wrong to unpack the crate, unwrap the shiny parts, and
pitch them in the scrap dumpster. Took him a couple of hours. No
yelling, no screaming, just a 'standard' assignment. Only
mangement comment was "parts had to be scrapped because they were
drilled wrong" You better believe everyone in the shop knew what
was going on. And the offender did not get much flack in the
break room, no one wanted to be next on that list!

Good luck, you just have to keep on it.

Cheers.

Tom Gardner wrote:
After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are 60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?

Along these lines a funny thing happened to me one time. I was cutting
some plywood for lids on some woodenboxes. Measured the boxes with tape
at 16". As I was going to free hand these on a table saw I needed lines
to cut to thus a straight edge. Grabed an old scale that had been
hanging in the outbuilding when I bought the place. Used the scale to
measure and draw the lines and proceeded to make the cuts. Put one on
the box to see how the fit was. It was 1/2" too long. Anyone except a
few old timers know what happened? The answer is below.












































The scale was a patternmakers scale with a 3/8" shrinkage allowance
built in.

Chuck

In article 091120031107350638%pilgrim6__spamfree__@mindsprin g.com, Pilgrim
says...

The scale was a patternmakers scale with a 3/8" shrinkage allowance
built in.

The same effect was documented in a book called "On High
Steel" where an apprentice (all apprentices are required
to carry *some* kind of measuring device with them on
the job) always cut stuff the wrong size. Finally one
of the old hands said "Let me *see* that thing" and it
turned out to be a shrink rule!

Great book BTW.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Pilgrim" wrote in message
news:091120031107350638%pilgrim6__spamfree__@minds pring.com...

The scale was a patternmakers scale with a 3/8" shrinkage allowance
built in.



I have had that happen to me. I worked at a plastic forming plant that used
to be a pattern shop. We finally took all the shrink rulers and wrapped
them in tape to warn folks about this.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

Tom,

I'd suggest making their pay proportional to their accuracy :-) 10%
for every 16th off.

Bwooohaaaaaahhhaaaa (evil laugh)

1) make sure they're properly equipped with good tools first
2) If your stuff is repetative make a "story stick" and work off that


It's hard to find good help



Tom


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message ...
After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are 60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?

It sounds as if you are being very fair and perhaps too lenient.
Rickover had a policy that everyone working for him had to be taking
classes. That might be more than you can justify, but I certainly
think you can require employees to take some classes.

You might also require all prospective employees take a basic skills
test. Many years ago I interviewed a young lad for a job that did not
require much skill. He had a high school diploma and I gave him a
tour of the plant and asked if he would have any problems doing
various things. His answer was always that he could do it. But
somehow I got suspicious and started asking questions that needed an
exact answer. I found out he could not add fractions, and then that
he could not read a tape measure. And as low tech as we were, we just
could not afford to hire him.

Dan


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message ...
After 3 major measuring screw-ups this week I put 3 employees on notice that
they had one month to learn to read a tape measure or...else. They are 60,
55, and 45 years old. How they got through life so far is beyond me. I
have tried to make go/no-go gauges for everything but this basic skill is
still needed and I can't be everywhere. I know I've been down this path
before and I'm so embarrassed that I still haven't been able to teach this
on this level. I have yet to find instructions for tape measures. I only
want 1/16" accuracy. Any thoughts?

Kent,
I remember seeing it in Cleveland, close (on the way) to the Cleveland
Clinic.
Fred
--
Drop TROU to email

"Kent Frazier" wrote in message
...

snip
Kent
Where in Ohio is Ohio Brush?

On Sat, 8 Nov 2003 21:48:42 -0500, "Tom Gardner"
brought forth from the murky depths:

Just how many "Bittys and itty bittys" is that?

Ask Vern Nier. He knows about those things.




Tom:

Larry's on the right track here. Send them all to classes to learn how to read
a vernier scale. If they can get through that, they should be able to handle a
tape.

Not to say they won't ever make stupid mistakes, though. We all do. I do,
anyway. "Measure twice, cut once" usually works, if you add, in between the
measurements, "go to the bathroom, have a smoke, go out and look at the sky,
tell somebody a joke or read the newspaper, then go back and measure it again
from scratch".

You could always take the hardass approach. Make 'em buy their own tapes.
After a mistake, ask to see the tape. Say something like "Gee, Bill, here's
the problem. It's not your fault. Your damn tape is no good. Hell of a thing
when a bad $15 dollar tape screws up a $500 job." Then pick up a pair of
snips, cut the tape, and tell him he should get a new one.

John Martin