I just built a new garshop and need electric service out to it. The city
here doesn't mind me doing the other work, but they require an actual
electrician to do the electric work. I had two guys set up to come out
sometime today to take a look. Of course, while I was finishing up with the
first guy, the second came along. He handed me his card and I told him that
I was just finishing up with another guy. He said he was real busy, mumbled
something else, and then said he didn't want the job and wanted his card
back. Do these guys think they're the only game in town? Don't they expect
that you'll be getting a few numbers? In retrospect, I'm glad because I
suspect that someone that unprofessional would not be someone I would want
to work with anyway.

todd

Yes, they do think that they are the only game in town.
Luckily, they are not all like that.
The name of the game is Intimidation. This approach works goods with older
retired people asking for a quote.
At time, they will blackmail you with your house insurance coverage and
charge you big bucks.
In your case you probably need a 220V Pony panel in your garage connected to
your house main supply.
The question is to find out if your house distribution panel has the spare
breakers and well suited to supply power to your pony panel.

The size of electrical cables and panels have to be determined as per your
local area code.
It would not be a bad thing to review the addition with your insurance
companies. It is best to talk to more than one companies
At the end of the day if you asked for about 4 to 5 quotes you will end up
with a fair one. Many people are doing the installation on the QT and
nothing bad happens. On the other hand if something happens in your
garageshop your insurance company may start to pick of some little things to
avoid or minimized damages payment. In theories some municipalities may
required some permit as per their by laws.



"todd" wrote in message
. ..
I just built a new garshop and need electric service out to it. The city
here doesn't mind me doing the other work, but they require an actual
electrician to do the electric work. I had two guys set up to come out
sometime today to take a look. Of course, while I was finishing up with
the first guy, the second came along. He handed me his card and I told him
that I was just finishing up with another guy. He said he was real busy,
mumbled something else, and then said he didn't want the job and wanted his
card back. Do these guys think they're the only game in town? Don't they
expect that you'll be getting a few numbers? In retrospect, I'm glad
because I suspect that someone that unprofessional would not be someone I
would want to work with anyway.

todd

"todd" wrote in message
. ..
I just built a new garshop and need electric service out to it. The city
here doesn't mind me doing the other work, but they require an actual
electrician to do the electric work. I had two guys set up to come out
sometime today to take a look. Of course, while I was finishing up with
the
first guy, the second came along. He handed me his card and I told him
that
I was just finishing up with another guy. He said he was real busy,
mumbled
something else, and then said he didn't want the job and wanted his card
back. Do these guys think they're the only game in town? Don't they
expect
that you'll be getting a few numbers? In retrospect, I'm glad because I
suspect that someone that unprofessional would not be someone I would want
to work with anyway.


It has nothing to do with electricians Todd, but everything to do with the
individual. Yup - he's got an ego problem. And yup... you should be glad
he took his card back and left. You're better off without that kind of guy.

--

-Mike-

wrote in message
...


The size of electrical cables and panels have to be determined as per your
local area code.
It would not be a bad thing to review the addition with your insurance
companies. It is best to talk to more than one companies
At the end of the day if you asked for about 4 to 5 quotes you will end up
with a fair one. Many people are doing the installation on the QT and
nothing bad happens. On the other hand if something happens in your
garageshop your insurance company may start to pick of some little things
to
avoid or minimized damages payment. In theories some municipalities may
required some permit as per their by laws.


This is an often spoken misunderstanding. Insurance companies pay out
everyday for house fires due to all sorts of negligent wiring - right down
to stupid things like light weight extension cords used in place of real
wiring. They pay out simply because they have to.

--

-Mike-



"todd" wrote in message
. ..
I just built a new garshop and need electric service out to it. The city
here doesn't mind me doing the other work, but they require an actual
electrician to do the electric work. I had two guys set up to come out
sometime today to take a look. Of course, while I was finishing up with
the first guy, the second came along. He handed me his card and I told
him
that I was just finishing up with another guy. He said he was real busy,
mumbled something else, and then said he didn't want the job and wanted
his
card back. Do these guys think they're the only game in town? Don't
they
expect that you'll be getting a few numbers? In retrospect, I'm glad
because I suspect that someone that unprofessional would not be someone I
would want to work with anyway.

todd

"todd" wrote in
:

I just built a new garshop and need electric service out to it. The
city here doesn't mind me doing the other work, but they require an
actual electrician to do the electric work. I had two guys set up to
come out sometime today to take a look. Of course, while I was
finishing up with the first guy, the second came along. He handed me
his card and I told him that I was just finishing up with another guy.
He said he was real busy, mumbled something else, and then said he
didn't want the job and wanted his card back. Do these guys think
they're the only game in town? Don't they expect that you'll be
getting a few numbers? In retrospect, I'm glad because I suspect that
someone that unprofessional would not be someone I would want to work
with anyway.

todd



It does pay to know a good electrician, and to pay what he asks. Knowing
him well on a social basis outside of the working relationship will help
get a fair price.

I could save a couple bucks doing certain things myself. Minor electrical
work is one of them. When it starts to pass minor, I call Bob. When my
son needs electrical work, I give him the Home Depot how to book, and Bob's
phone number.

Finding an expert, who is not an a##$o%#, is a really good thing. When you
do, treat him/her fairly, and with respect. You really don't want to find
out about your insurance coverage the hard way. For any reason.

Patriarch

todd wrote:
I just built a new garshop and need electric service out to it. The city
here doesn't mind me doing the other work, but they require an actual
electrician to do the electric work. I had two guys set up to come out
sometime today to take a look. Of course, while I was finishing up with the
first guy, the second came along. He handed me his card and I told him that
I was just finishing up with another guy. He said he was real busy, mumbled
something else, and then said he didn't want the job and wanted his card
back. Do these guys think they're the only game in town? Don't they expect
that you'll be getting a few numbers? In retrospect, I'm glad because I
suspect that someone that unprofessional would not be someone I would want
to work with anyway.

Open to a viewpoint from the other side of the fence? I'm not an
electrician, but I can tell you what went through the electrician's
mind. He's thinking that you're stacking up electical quotes in a
folder - price shopping. How much price shopping is the question.
When you have the electrician's coming in a revolving door (for all he
knows) then it's obvious to him that you're just shopping for the
lowest price and getting as many bids as you can until you're
satisfied. You know, wasting his time. If a guy has a healthy
business he usually doesn't want to be in a race to the bottom of the
barrel. The better electricians have brisk businesses and don't see a
reason to waste their time giving a bid to someone whose only concern
is price.

It's also uncomfortable for both electricians. Some people think that
having the guys giving estimates "accidentally" run into each other on
the way in/out of the house will give them both reason to sharpen their
pencils and give a lower estimate. It doesn't work that way. Usually
what will happen is one of the guys, if not both, won't even bother
getting back to you with a price. Think of it this way - say you're
dating and in a non-exclusive relationship with a couple of women. Are
you going to have one drop you at the house and have the other one
waiting there to pick you up - have them run into each other on
purpose? No. It would make both of them uncomfortable and the only
person that would end up losing would be you. It's disrespectful.

I'm not saying that is actually what you did, and I don't know whether
the two appointments were set up so closely or if one guy was delayed,
but that is definitely what the guy is thinking.

Asking for his business card back is odd. Maybe it was his last one.

The normal thing to do in that situation would have been to either
never get back to you (avoid confrontation), or to say he's not a good
fit for your project and recommend the worst electrician in town
(passive-aggressive). You should be happy that he told you up front.
Other than wanting his card back, it's actually a point in his favor.

R

"todd" wrote in message
. ..
I just built a new garshop and need electric service out to it. The city
here doesn't mind me doing the other work, but they require an actual
electrician to do the electric work.

Are you sure about that? Towns will frequently require licenses to work as
electricians, but not to actually do work. My town requires that of
plumbers, but not electricians; and only for plumbing water, not gas.

It's a field in which marginally qualified people can make more than they
could framing because of stupid "laws" like you mention and because almost
no one has any idea what they really do. Get as many bids as you reasonably
can and choose by competence (for YOUR job, you ain't building a factory),
personality, AND price.
With luck, you may even find someone to sign your papers after inspecting
your work and being paid a reasonable amount for the help/supervision. This
is handy if you know one, especially. I wouldn't ask a guy who is not
pretty busy to do this, however. There ARE good guys out there, like there
are good mechanics, but it's up to YOU to find them. I've seen bids vary by
a factor of nearly three! Take your time.
WL
"todd" wrote in message
. ..
I just built a new garshop and need electric service out to it. The city
here doesn't mind me doing the other work, but they require an actual
electrician to do the electric work. I had two guys set up to come out
sometime today to take a look. Of course, while I was finishing up with
the first guy, the second came along. He handed me his card and I told him
that I was just finishing up with another guy. He said he was real busy,
mumbled something else, and then said he didn't want the job and wanted his
card back. Do these guys think they're the only game in town? Don't they
expect that you'll be getting a few numbers? In retrospect, I'm glad
because I suspect that someone that unprofessional would not be someone I
would want to work with anyway.

todd

"RicodJour" wrote in message
ups.com...
todd wrote:
I just built a new garshop and need electric service out to it. The city
here doesn't mind me doing the other work, but they require an actual
electrician to do the electric work. I had two guys set up to come out
sometime today to take a look. Of course, while I was finishing up with
the
first guy, the second came along. He handed me his card and I told him
that
I was just finishing up with another guy. He said he was real busy,
mumbled
something else, and then said he didn't want the job and wanted his card
back. Do these guys think they're the only game in town? Don't they
expect
that you'll be getting a few numbers? In retrospect, I'm glad because I
suspect that someone that unprofessional would not be someone I would
want
to work with anyway.

Open to a viewpoint from the other side of the fence? I'm not an
electrician, but I can tell you what went through the electrician's
mind. He's thinking that you're stacking up electical quotes in a
folder - price shopping. How much price shopping is the question.
When you have the electrician's coming in a revolving door (for all he
knows) then it's obvious to him that you're just shopping for the
lowest price and getting as many bids as you can until you're
satisfied. You know, wasting his time. If a guy has a healthy
business he usually doesn't want to be in a race to the bottom of the
barrel. The better electricians have brisk businesses and don't see a
reason to waste their time giving a bid to someone whose only concern
is price.

I'd say that would be a big assumption on his part, if that was the case.
It's isn't like I had five electrians lined up outside the door. It gives
me the idea that he knows his prices are consistently high and he can't
compete. If that's the case, he should stick with the little old ladies who
don't bother getting a few estimates.

It's also uncomfortable for both electricians. Some people think that
having the guys giving estimates "accidentally" run into each other on
the way in/out of the house will give them both reason to sharpen their
pencils and give a lower estimate. It doesn't work that way. Usually
what will happen is one of the guys, if not both, won't even bother
getting back to you with a price. Think of it this way - say you're
dating and in a non-exclusive relationship with a couple of women. Are
you going to have one drop you at the house and have the other one
waiting there to pick you up - have them run into each other on
purpose? No. It would make both of them uncomfortable and the only
person that would end up losing would be you. It's disrespectful.

It wasn't my intention to have them there at the same time. One was
supposed to be there earlier in the morning and one closer to noon, but the
early guy got delayed. It works out better for everyone, IMO, if they come
separately.

I'm not saying that is actually what you did, and I don't know whether
the two appointments were set up so closely or if one guy was delayed,
but that is definitely what the guy is thinking.

Asking for his business card back is odd. Maybe it was his last one.


Not that I had it in my hand long enough to be sure, but I think it was one
of those magnet business cards. I kinda wish I had told hime he couldn't
have it back.

todd

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"todd" wrote in message
. ..
I just built a new garshop and need electric service out to it. The city
here doesn't mind me doing the other work, but they require an actual
electrician to do the electric work.

Are you sure about that? Towns will frequently require licenses to work
as electricians, but not to actually do work. My town requires that of
plumbers, but not electricians; and only for plumbing water, not gas.

According to the electrical inspector, that's the case. And if you have any
experience in these sort of things, that's the only opinion that matters.

todd

"Wilson" wrote in message
ink.net...
It's a field in which marginally qualified people can make more than they
could framing because of stupid "laws" like you mention and because almost
no one has any idea what they really do. Get as many bids as you
reasonably can and choose by competence (for YOUR job, you ain't building
a factory), personality, AND price.
With luck, you may even find someone to sign your papers after inspecting
your work and being paid a reasonable amount for the help/supervision.
This is handy if you know one, especially. I wouldn't ask a guy who is
not pretty busy to do this, however. There ARE good guys out there, like
there are good mechanics, but it's up to YOU to find them. I've seen bids
vary by a factor of nearly three! Take your time.
WL

I spoke with one gentleman that I suspect would have let me do some of my
own work and just checked it. Here's what happened with him. I called him
on a Wednesday. We set up to have him come out Friday afternoon. On
Friday morning, the first guy I had come out and look called to give me his
price. I thanked him and told him I was waiting for a couple of other
numbers. 30 minutes later, guy #2 called and told me he decided he didn't
want the job because he was too busy. Coincidence? Maybe. But it gave me
a bad feeling.

The other thing that gave me a bad feeling is that guy #1 wants $2200 to run
70' of 3/4" from the panel in the house into a disconnect panel in the
garage and pull #8 wire. The trench outside has already been dug. I say
fuggetaboutit.

todd

On Dec 2, 1:40 pm, "todd" wrote:
[snipped for brevity] In retrospect, I'm glad because I
suspect that someone that unprofessional would not be someone I would want
to work with anyway.

Who needs a schmuck like that? Sandbox kind of thinking.
He wanted to get his card back because he only had one.

When I used to tender electrical work, I asked for 3 quotes, if the job
was big, I would call for 5 estimates. (Of course, electrical estimates
which included design would be treated differently.)
If I got 3 estimates, I'd throw out the top and bottom. Keeps everybody
honest, because I would tell them that up front.
If I got 5 estimates, I'd still toss the high and low and have a
meeting with the middle three. Those who didn't show for that 'battle',
too bad.
Most were professional enough to make their case.... but there was
always some asshole who thought he was beyond that. Wouldn't (couldn't)
compete.
Guys like that usually pull a number out of the sky and hope you go for
it.
I often saw them working for another contractor soon thereafter.

Count your blessings, Todd.

r

"Robatoy" wrote in message
ups.com...


On Dec 2, 1:40 pm, "todd" wrote:
[snipped for brevity] In retrospect, I'm glad because I
suspect that someone that unprofessional would not be someone I would
want
to work with anyway.

Who needs a schmuck like that? Sandbox kind of thinking.
He wanted to get his card back because he only had one.

When I used to tender electrical work, I asked for 3 quotes, if the job
was big, I would call for 5 estimates. (Of course, electrical estimates
which included design would be treated differently.)
If I got 3 estimates, I'd throw out the top and bottom. Keeps everybody
honest, because I would tell them that up front.
If I got 5 estimates, I'd still toss the high and low and have a
meeting with the middle three. Those who didn't show for that 'battle',
too bad.

Telling them you will toss the bottom will discourage them from working
close because it will cost them the job.
Two years ago I got three bids on staining my house. Two were the same and
one was half of the others. He did just fine; glad I didn't toss it.

Sounds like things are starting to get a little edgy about this
subject, so just take this with a grain of salt. As a
remodeling/repair contractor I personally think you should count your
lucky stars that guy pulled out, for whatever reason.

Maybe his feelings were hurt that you put it out to bid. Maybe he was
having a bad day at home. Maybe he was too insecure with his own
processes to go toe to toe with another contractor in an open bid
process. Maybe it was more of job than he could handle and he didn't
know how to tell you. Maybe, just maybe.. he was indeed too busy, and
just went to your house as a sense of responsibility to his company; if
that is the case he wasted both of your afternoons as he should have
said so before agreeing to come out.

I get bids and award bids every week. I cannot tell you how
overwhelming thankful I am (almost on my knees thanking the big guy)
when someone will just be honest with me a pull out BEFORE they put me
in a crappy situation. One where they don't show up, fall far behind,
or plain just cannot deliver the finished project I need. If the guy
suffered from any of the problems listed above, he should have never
gone to your house in the first place. But... if he did suffer from
any of them and he let you see it, you DON'T want him working on your
project. I think he did you a huge favor by walking/running away.

Sounds to me like you were a little snubbed because he wasn't greatful
for the opportunity to get the work (boy do I get that attitude in my
line of work), or the chance to give you a free estimate.

Just my 0.02, nothing more.

Robert

PS: As above though, I don't understand taking the card back unless
there is more to the story here. That's just plain weird.

On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 17:36:57 -0600, "todd" wrote:

"RicodJour" wrote in message
oups.com...
todd wrote:
I just built a new garshop and need electric service out to it. The city
here doesn't mind me doing the other work, but they require an actual
electrician to do the electric work. I had two guys set up to come out
sometime today to take a look. Of course, while I was finishing up with
the
first guy, the second came along. He handed me his card and I told him
that
I was just finishing up with another guy. He said he was real busy,
mumbled
something else, and then said he didn't want the job and wanted his card
back. Do these guys think they're the only game in town? Don't they
expect
that you'll be getting a few numbers? In retrospect, I'm glad because I
suspect that someone that unprofessional would not be someone I would
want
to work with anyway.

Open to a viewpoint from the other side of the fence? I'm not an
electrician, but I can tell you what went through the electrician's
mind. He's thinking that you're stacking up electical quotes in a
folder - price shopping. How much price shopping is the question.
When you have the electrician's coming in a revolving door (for all he
knows) then it's obvious to him that you're just shopping for the
lowest price and getting as many bids as you can until you're
satisfied. You know, wasting his time. If a guy has a healthy
business he usually doesn't want to be in a race to the bottom of the
barrel. The better electricians have brisk businesses and don't see a
reason to waste their time giving a bid to someone whose only concern
is price.

I'd say that would be a big assumption on his part, if that was the case.
It's isn't like I had five electrians lined up outside the door. It gives
me the idea that he knows his prices are consistently high and he can't
compete. If that's the case, he should stick with the little old ladies who
don't bother getting a few estimates.

Old joke among contractors is the first thing the winning bidder says
is what did I forget to put in my bid. Some contractors base their
bid on whats the least that they have to do to satisfy the contract
while others quote on what it takes to actually satisfy the customer.
You're some times ahead to pick the contractor you are comfortable
with dealing with, as he may pick customers the same way. Nice part
of contracting is the price is alway subject to change according to
the customers attitude.

Mike M



It's also uncomfortable for both electricians. Some people think that
having the guys giving estimates "accidentally" run into each other on
the way in/out of the house will give them both reason to sharpen their
pencils and give a lower estimate. It doesn't work that way. Usually
what will happen is one of the guys, if not both, won't even bother
getting back to you with a price. Think of it this way - say you're
dating and in a non-exclusive relationship with a couple of women. Are
you going to have one drop you at the house and have the other one
waiting there to pick you up - have them run into each other on
purpose? No. It would make both of them uncomfortable and the only
person that would end up losing would be you. It's disrespectful.

It wasn't my intention to have them there at the same time. One was
supposed to be there earlier in the morning and one closer to noon, but the
early guy got delayed. It works out better for everyone, IMO, if they come
separately.

I'm not saying that is actually what you did, and I don't know whether
the two appointments were set up so closely or if one guy was delayed,
but that is definitely what the guy is thinking.

Asking for his business card back is odd. Maybe it was his last one.


Not that I had it in my hand long enough to be sure, but I think it was one
of those magnet business cards. I kinda wish I had told hime he couldn't
have it back.

todd

todd wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message

Open to a viewpoint from the other side of the fence? I'm not an
electrician, but I can tell you what went through the electrician's
mind. He's thinking that you're stacking up electical quotes in a
folder - price shopping. How much price shopping is the question.
When you have the electrician's coming in a revolving door (for all he
knows) then it's obvious to him that you're just shopping for the
lowest price and getting as many bids as you can until you're
satisfied. You know, wasting his time. If a guy has a healthy
business he usually doesn't want to be in a race to the bottom of the
barrel. The better electricians have brisk businesses and don't see a
reason to waste their time giving a bid to someone whose only concern
is price.

I'd say that would be a big assumption on his part, if that was the case.
It's isn't like I had five electrians lined up outside the door. It gives
me the idea that he knows his prices are consistently high and he can't
compete. If that's the case, he should stick with the little old ladies who
don't bother getting a few estimates.

I'm sure there were assumptions made, and I'm sure that you didn't try
to stack the guys up. Nevertheless, you were probably made to pay for
the behavior of some customers that the electrician had run into over
the years. Not much you can do about it in that case.

I had one years back where a potential customer gave me a mimeographed
(remember those?) sheet that started off, Dear Mr. Contractor, and
included an itemized list of all aspects of the project that I was
supposed to estimate, fill in the blanks and mail back to him. I've
never been the lowest bidder on anything, most of my projects are
negotiated contracts, and I don't sell by price alone. There was no
point in me taking the time to fill out a "test" to see if I would
pass.

It's also uncomfortable for both electricians. Some people think that
having the guys giving estimates "accidentally" run into each other on
the way in/out of the house will give them both reason to sharpen their
pencils and give a lower estimate. It doesn't work that way. Usually
what will happen is one of the guys, if not both, won't even bother
getting back to you with a price. Think of it this way - say you're
dating and in a non-exclusive relationship with a couple of women. Are
you going to have one drop you at the house and have the other one
waiting there to pick you up - have them run into each other on
purpose? No. It would make both of them uncomfortable and the only
person that would end up losing would be you. It's disrespectful.

It wasn't my intention to have them there at the same time. One was
supposed to be there earlier in the morning and one closer to noon, but the
early guy got delayed. It works out better for everyone, IMO, if they come
separately.

Of course. Like I said, I'm sure he made assumptions. Generally in
such situations where there's a little awkwardness it pays to have a
sense of humor about it, make a little joke and apologize. If the guy
doesn't give you the benefit of the doubt in such a situation, you're
probably better off not dealing with the guy.

I'm not saying that is actually what you did, and I don't know whether
the two appointments were set up so closely or if one guy was delayed,
but that is definitely what the guy is thinking.

Asking for his business card back is odd. Maybe it was his last one.


Not that I had it in my hand long enough to be sure, but I think it was one
of those magnet business cards. I kinda wish I had told him he couldn't
have it back.

Nah, you should have sold it back to him for a buck.

R

"todd" wrote in message
. ..


I'd say that would be a big assumption on his part, if that was the case.
It's isn't like I had five electrians lined up outside the door. It gives
me the idea that he knows his prices are consistently high and he can't
compete. If that's the case, he should stick with the little old ladies
who
don't bother getting a few estimates.

It's not really a big assumption on his part at all Todd. Remember - he
does not know you from Adam, but he does run into this sort of thing every
day, more times a day than he'd like. I did agree largely with you in an
earlier post, and I still do, but with this particular point, I think you're
taking the incident too personally. You're really reading too much into his
reaction.



--

-Mike-

"todd" wrote in message
. ..


I spoke with one gentleman that I suspect would have let me do some of my
own work and just checked it. Here's what happened with him. I called
him
on a Wednesday. We set up to have him come out Friday afternoon. On
Friday morning, the first guy I had come out and look called to give me
his
price. I thanked him and told him I was waiting for a couple of other
numbers. 30 minutes later, guy #2 called and told me he decided he didn't
want the job because he was too busy. Coincidence? Maybe. But it gave
me
a bad feeling.

Why? You've got a lot of good thinking going for you Todd - why the "bad
feeling" stuff? You'll certainly see lots of boogy men lurking in shadows
if that's what you're looking for. Life's way too short for that. Besides,
that's what the wimmin folks are for.


The other thing that gave me a bad feeling is that guy #1 wants $2200 to
run
70' of 3/4" from the panel in the house into a disconnect panel in the
garage and pull #8 wire. The trench outside has already been dug. I say
fuggetaboutit.


No kiddin', Fuggetaboutit. It's an easy job to do at this point. Do it
yourself for a couple hunnert bucks in materials and salute it from the
coffee pot.

--

-Mike-

Sounds to me like you were a little snubbed because he wasn't greatful
for the opportunity to get the work (boy do I get that attitude in my
line of work), or the chance to give you a free estimate.

Just my 0.02, nothing more.

Robert

PS: As above though, I don't understand taking the card back unless
there is more to the story here. That's just plain weird.

It sounds like you're addressing me, but replying to Toller's post.
Personally, I don't care if he was grateful or not. If he didn't need the
work, he didn't have to come out. I'd say it was more the other way around.
He seemed to be upset that he wasn't the only guy I called. He can go pound
sand. The guy I talked to while he threw his fit was very pleasant and we
had a good exchange.

todd

"RicodJour" wrote in message
oups.com...
todd wrote:
Not that I had it in my hand long enough to be sure, but I think it was
one
of those magnet business cards. I kinda wish I had told him he couldn't
have it back.

Nah, you should have sold it back to him for a buck.

Now that would have been funny.

todd

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"todd" wrote in message
. ..


I spoke with one gentleman that I suspect would have let me do some of my
own work and just checked it. Here's what happened with him. I called
him
on a Wednesday. We set up to have him come out Friday afternoon. On
Friday morning, the first guy I had come out and look called to give me
his
price. I thanked him and told him I was waiting for a couple of other
numbers. 30 minutes later, guy #2 called and told me he decided he
didn't
want the job because he was too busy. Coincidence? Maybe. But it gave
me
a bad feeling.

Why? You've got a lot of good thinking going for you Todd - why the "bad
feeling" stuff? You'll certainly see lots of boogy men lurking in shadows
if that's what you're looking for. Life's way too short for that.
Besides,
that's what the wimmin folks are for.

It's just odd that the day before the guy was gung ho and two hours before
he's supposed to arrive he's too busy to take the job. Hey, I'm not
sayin....I'm just sayin.

The other thing that gave me a bad feeling is that guy #1 wants $2200 to
run
70' of 3/4" from the panel in the house into a disconnect panel in the
garage and pull #8 wire. The trench outside has already been dug. I say
fuggetaboutit.


No kiddin', Fuggetaboutit. It's an easy job to do at this point. Do it
yourself for a couple hunnert bucks in materials and salute it from the
coffee pot.

If I could, it would already be done. Sadly, the electrical inspector
doesn't share my opinion of my electrical skills. The city requires a
licensed electrician complete the work or no final inspection. No final
inspection, no final C of O.

todd

todd wrote:
I just built a new garshop and need electric service out to it. The city
here doesn't mind me doing the other work, but they require an actual
electrician to do the electric work. I had two guys set up to come out
sometime today to take a look. Of course, while I was finishing up with the
first guy, the second came along. He handed me his card and I told him that
I was just finishing up with another guy. He said he was real busy, mumbled
something else, and then said he didn't want the job and wanted his card
back. Do these guys think they're the only game in town? Don't they expect
that you'll be getting a few numbers? In retrospect, I'm glad because I
suspect that someone that unprofessional would not be someone I would want
to work with anyway.

todd


I would guess that you not only returned his card (what are -you- going
to do with it?) but were kind enough to point him in the general
direction of the door.

Bill

--

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker,
that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own
self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their
self-love, and never talk to them of our own neccessities but of their
advantages.

Adam Smith

On Dec 2, 7:10 pm, "Toller" wrote:
Telling them you will toss the bottom will discourage them from working
close because it will cost them the job.

Give that some more thought. The process of them KNOWING that is how I
operate forces them to do some thinking. The high bid goes because he's
either too expensive, tries to take advantage or is using gold when
silver will do.

The low bid goes because he may not be employing professionals, uses
inferior materials or plays the old game of 'getting the job and trying
for extras later.

In most cases, the quotes are very close. Mostly because these
particular types of contractors have been well-established and it is
not their first rodeo.

The professionals are always close. It is the fly-by-nights that are
all over the map.

Recently I quoted a job at a car dealership for a reception counter.
I came in at $ 4400.00. Another fabricator, one I know well, came in at
$ 4300.00. Fabricator # 3, an upstart from waaaay out of town, came in
at $ 1850.00
Fabricator # 2 and I both knew that it was over $ 2000.00 in materials.
We just chuckled. The dealership also knew there was a problem. You,
Toller, probably would have gone ahead with that low quote.

My method of gathering quotes, eliminates undesirables on both ends of
the spectrum.


Two years ago I got three bids on staining my house. Two were the same and
one was half of the others. He did just fine; glad I didn't toss it.

You got lucky. The guy who did all the work wasn't so lucky. Good for
you.

todd wrote:

If I could, it would already be done. Sadly, the electrical inspector
doesn't share my opinion of my electrical skills. The city requires a
licensed electrician complete the work or no final inspection. No final
inspection, no final C of O.

todd



My Dad was in a similar situation many years ago. Note that the
electrician has to complete the work ... but perhaps he does not have to
rough it in.

The deal my Dad worked out was that he would pull the wires and mount
the boxes but not connect the wires to anything at either end. That was
left for the electrician, who looked over the rough work before pulling
out his screwdriver.

The inspector was in and out in about 5 minutes once he saw the
electricians signature on the work.

Might work for you, too.

Bill

--

I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow.

Woodrow Wilson (1856 - 1924)

Next thing you know, you'll need a licensed designer to tell you what
color your walls need to be... but I have to go, the licenced member
holder is here so I can take a whiz (otherwise the insurance company
won't pay-out water-damage claims).

(I didn't actually type this, it was typed-in by a licensed keyboardist)

todd wrote:
"Toller" wrote in message
...

"todd" wrote in message
. ..
I just built a new garshop and need electric service out to it. The city
here doesn't mind me doing the other work, but they require an actual
electrician to do the electric work.

Are you sure about that? Towns will frequently require licenses to work
as electricians, but not to actually do work. My town requires that of
plumbers, but not electricians; and only for plumbing water, not gas.

According to the electrical inspector, that's the case. And if you have any
experience in these sort of things, that's the only opinion that matters.

todd

"Robatoy" wrote in message
oups.com...


On Dec 2, 7:10 pm, "Toller" wrote:
Telling them you will toss the bottom will discourage them from working
close because it will cost them the job.

Give that some more thought. The process of them KNOWING that is how I
operate forces them to do some thinking. The high bid goes because he's
either too expensive, tries to take advantage or is using gold when
silver will do.

The low bid goes because he may not be employing professionals, uses
inferior materials or plays the old game of 'getting the job and trying
for extras later.

In most cases, the quotes are very close. Mostly because these
particular types of contractors have been well-established and it is
not their first rodeo.

The professionals are always close. It is the fly-by-nights that are
all over the map.

Recently I quoted a job at a car dealership for a reception counter.
I came in at $ 4400.00. Another fabricator, one I know well, came in at
$ 4300.00. Fabricator # 3, an upstart from waaaay out of town, came in
at $ 1850.00
Fabricator # 2 and I both knew that it was over $ 2000.00 in materials.
We just chuckled. The dealership also knew there was a problem. You,
Toller, probably would have gone ahead with that low quote.

If I was convinced he would do the job properly for the price I sure would
have gone for him, and I would have gotten a satisfactory outcome. I am
good about getting satisfactory outcomes.

Robatoy wrote:
On Dec 2, 7:10 pm, "Toller" wrote:
Telling them you will toss the bottom will discourage them from working
close because it will cost them the job.

Give that some more thought. The process of them KNOWING that is how I
operate forces them to do some thinking. The high bid goes because he's
either too expensive, tries to take advantage or is using gold when
silver will do.

The low bid goes because he may not be employing professionals, uses
inferior materials or plays the old game of 'getting the job and trying
for extras later.

In most cases, the quotes are very close. Mostly because these
particular types of contractors have been well-established and it is
not their first rodeo.

The professionals are always close. It is the fly-by-nights that are
all over the map.

Recently I quoted a job at a car dealership for a reception counter.
I came in at $ 4400.00. Another fabricator, one I know well, came in at
$ 4300.00. Fabricator # 3, an upstart from waaaay out of town, came in
at $ 1850.00
Fabricator # 2 and I both knew that it was over $ 2000.00 in materials.
We just chuckled. The dealership also knew there was a problem. You,
Toller, probably would have gone ahead with that low quote.

My method of gathering quotes, eliminates undesirables on both ends of
the spectrum.

Any arbitrary method for winnowing bids is exactly that - arbitrary.
You're throwing out the bath water without bothering to check if
there's a baby in it. Your system seems to assume that the low and
high bids number always indicate either gouging or incompetence or
whatever, so you throw them out.

If someone goes to the trouble of submitting a bid it seems to me the
least I can do is examine the bid to see if the low and high bids were
skewed for some reason. I have no problem reviewing a bid and trying
to determine if there was something omitted from the low bid or that a
CYA number was included in the higher bid due to some misunderstanding
about the project.

Bids are all about risk. The best way to secure a good bid is to show
all bidders that you are operating fairly and are willing to help them
work on a level playing field. Of course I won't tell them what the
other bids are. I'll just ask some questions about some of the
specifics in areas that I suspect might have caused some people
problems. Once the bidders realize you're playing fairly and trying to
minimize their risk, your projects will be viewed as less of a risk,
and you as a nicer guy, so you'll start getting better bids. It also
helps promising but inexperienced contractors come up to speed so they
can swim in the deep end without getting eaten alive.

Your system guarantees that your bids will stay in the same general
area that they are now. Examining low and high bids might, on
occasion, turn up areas of cost savings that didn't occur to you, or a
more expensive way of doing things that is worth the money. Life, and
bidding, is about a lot more than numbers and arbitrary systems.

R

"Robatoy" wrote in message
oups.com...


Recently I quoted a job at a car dealership for a reception counter.
I came in at $ 4400.00. Another fabricator, one I know well, came in at
$ 4300.00. Fabricator # 3, an upstart from waaaay out of town, came in
at $ 1850.00
Fabricator # 2 and I both knew that it was over $ 2000.00 in materials.
We just chuckled. The dealership also knew there was a problem. You,
Toller, probably would have gone ahead with that low quote.

My method of gathering quotes, eliminates undesirables on both ends of
the spectrum.


The only problem I have with your method is that your quote should be thrown
out, by those rules. To me that's the problem with methods. They intend to
serve and they may even serve sometimes, but the project becomes secondary
to the method in the long run. So yours, as it appears - a vaild quote, and
even substantiated by the competititve position of the second quote, is
automatically thrown out. Quality work thrown out for the sake of a method.

--

-Mike-

Plus you may be able to purchase the electrical cable and pony panel at a
contractor's discounted price.
The contractors do not mind because at the end of the month they get a
volume discount.

"Bill in Detroit" wrote in message
...
todd wrote:

If I could, it would already be done. Sadly, the electrical inspector
doesn't share my opinion of my electrical skills. The city requires a
licensed electrician complete the work or no final inspection. No final
inspection, no final C of O.

todd

My Dad was in a similar situation many years ago. Note that the
electrician has to complete the work ... but perhaps he does not have to
rough it in.

The deal my Dad worked out was that he would pull the wires and mount the
boxes but not connect the wires to anything at either end. That was left
for the electrician, who looked over the rough work before pulling out his
screwdriver.

The inspector was in and out in about 5 minutes once he saw the
electricians signature on the work.

Might work for you, too.

Bill

--

I not only use all the brains that I have, but all that I can borrow.

Woodrow Wilson (1856 - 1924)

On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 12:40:52 -0600, "todd" wrote:

I just built a new garshop and need electric service out to it. The city
here doesn't mind me doing the other work, but they require an actual
electrician to do the electric work. I had two guys set up to come out
sometime today to take a look. Of course, while I was finishing up with the
first guy, the second came along. He handed me his card and I told him that
I was just finishing up with another guy. He said he was real busy, mumbled
something else, and then said he didn't want the job and wanted his card
back. Do these guys think they're the only game in town? Don't they expect
that you'll be getting a few numbers? In retrospect, I'm glad because I
suspect that someone that unprofessional would not be someone I would want
to work with anyway.

todd

Must have been a Democrat

Every hear the term "Independent Contractor"?

Now you know.

RonB

On Dec 3, 1:29 am, "RicodJour" wrote:

Bids are all about risk. The best way to secure a good bid is to show
all bidders that you are operating fairly and are willing to help them
work on a level playing field. Of course I won't tell them what the
other bids are. I'll just ask some questions about some of the
specifics in areas that I suspect might have caused some people
problems. Once the bidders realize you're playing fairly and trying to
minimize their risk, your projects will be viewed as less of a risk,
and you as a nicer guy, so you'll start getting better bids.

We all know each other. The people who bid all know each other. There
is way too much integrity for anybody to be sharing any numbers. They
DO know I play fairly.
The 'system' has worked well for many years. When the job gets to be
big enough (5 quotes), there will be a review of all bids. The three in
the middle of five all have a shot at an explanation.

[snip]
Life, and
bidding, is about a lot more than numbers and arbitrary systems.

It most definitely is also about relationships. But to call the system
arbitrary is unfair.

"Here are the drawings. Here are the specs and codes and these are the
rules by which I play."
The rules are the same for those who play. It couldn't be more
fair. When we all agree that the King of Spades is the highest card in
the deck, it is fair to all that agree. It is not a matter that it is
the most powerful card only when *I* get it... or Johnson over there..

Bidding is a combination of solid business practice and poker.

Also... if my system (method) is so unfair, why do the contractors like
to get a job from me? Using the system I do? They keep bidding. And I
do get calls like "dammit, I wanted that gig..maybe next time.."


r

On Dec 3, 7:02 am, "Mike Marlow" wrote:
The only problem I have with your method is that your quote should be
thrown
out, by those rules.

It did.

To me that's the problem with methods. They intend to
serve and they may even serve sometimes, but the project becomes secondary to the method in the long run. So yours, as it appears - a vaild quote, and
even substantiated by the competititve position of the second quote, is
automatically thrown out. Quality work thrown out for the sake of a method.

The guy that got that gig is every bit as good at it as I am.
I'll get him next time...I now know more about his pricing
habits...I'll get him next time by ....mmmm $ 200.00 *G* (Good for the
customer, btw)

He won the deal fair and square. I had a pair of sevens, he had a pair
of eights.

r

When you have a project of this kind it gives me a warmer feeling if I can
make a preliminary cost estimate of ± 15%.
The following looks like academicals BS. However It will provide me with a
global picture of what to expect from bidders.
Then it can be decided if I can do some work myself to skimmed the bottom
line cost or just maintain the projected cost.
The as build cost may or will differ from a preliminary estimate.

In this scenario we have the cost of:
1) routing the cable in the ground or through the attic = hours X cost of
labour.
2) connecting to the main panel = cost of labour X hours.
3) Plastic underground conduits cost per foot X length. if required?
4) Electrical cable all weather on standard cost per foot X length.
5) numbers of breakers X cost.
6) pony panel at the receiving end.
7) power cable going into the garage and installing the pony panel
8) connecting the pony panel
9) 5 % for clamps, fastening, caulking and miscellaneous (in some cases 10%
may be acceptable?)
10)Inspection and permit.
11) 10 to 15% for administration cost
12) 15 % for profit
13) 15 % for imponderables ( things that cannot be evaluated with exactness
at this time)
14) no cost has allocated for insurance or any accident that may take place
to the project.
15) The cost of material and labour for routing and fishing the electrical
cable in the garage to various outlets has not been accounted or estimated
yet.

BTW I was just doing this for a dry run

"Robatoy" wrote in message
oups.com...


On Dec 3, 7:02 am, "Mike Marlow" wrote:
The only problem I have with your method is that your quote should be
thrown
out, by those rules.

It did.

To me that's the problem with methods. They intend to
serve and they may even serve sometimes, but the project becomes
secondary to the method in the long run. So yours, as it appears - a
vaild quote, and
even substantiated by the competititve position of the second quote, is
automatically thrown out. Quality work thrown out for the sake of a
method.

The guy that got that gig is every bit as good at it as I am.
I'll get him next time...I now know more about his pricing
habits...I'll get him next time by ....mmmm $ 200.00 *G* (Good for the
customer, btw)

He won the deal fair and square. I had a pair of sevens, he had a pair
of eights.

r

First, distinguish between quotes and estimates. Estimates
are just that -- a guess based on what the estimator thinks
is required in time and materials. The company with the
lowest estimate might not have the lowest price in the end.

Conversely, if you require a firm quotation, everybody will
build contingencies into it and it will probably cost more.
But at least you can make fair comparisons.

Estimates might not have the same assumptions built in. One
electrician might put in the Square D Homelite series, while
another uses the premium QO series. One company might
anticipate repairing any holes and damage they do during
the installation, while another might expect you to hire
a carpenter when they're finished.

Here are some examples from my own experience:

New heating and air conditioning system -- only one of the three
contractors included the condensate pump I'd need because there
wasn't a drain nearby.

New bathtub / plumbing work -- only one of the three contractors
mentioned that the floor would be torn up and need to be replaced
too. The work was included in his price, but would have been a
surprise from the other two.

Finally, the quotations aren't firm. You can choose the company
you prefer to do the work and use other quotations as bargaining
leverage.

Robatoy wrote:

When I used to tender electrical work, I asked for 3 quotes, if the job
was big, I would call for 5 estimates. (Of course, electrical estimates
which included design would be treated differently.)
If I got 3 estimates, I'd throw out the top and bottom. Keeps everybody
honest, because I would tell them that up front.
If I got 5 estimates, I'd still toss the high and low and have a
meeting with the middle three. Those who didn't show for that 'battle',
too bad.
Most were professional enough to make their case.... but there was
always some asshole who thought he was beyond that. Wouldn't (couldn't)
compete.
Guys like that usually pull a number out of the sky and hope you go for
it.
I often saw them working for another contractor soon thereafter.

Count your blessings, Todd.

r

In a court of law an estimate is recognised as ± 15 %.
If a contract is awarded and approved as per an estimated cost It means that
legally it cannot exceed 15%.
Very few people are aware of the legal meaning.
A quote can be firm and valid as per the listed contractual obligations
under specific listed and agreed circumstances and law of the land.
If a quote request or tender is properly done and no deviations are taken it
can be signed by both party and use as a contract.
Or a quote or tender can be at cost plus. The intend is to engaged in doing
some work as per the owner's request and billing him as extra for cost
incurred in doing the requested work. This is not the best approach and its
to be avoided.
However if you have to sign a cost plus contract the rate, material cost and
other incumbent or associate cost should be agreed upon before commencement
of work.


"M Berger" wrote in message
...
First, distinguish between quotes and estimates. Estimates
are just that -- a guess based on what the estimator thinks
is required in time and materials. The company with the
lowest estimate might not have the lowest price in the end.

Conversely, if you require a firm quotation, everybody will
build contingencies into it and it will probably cost more.
But at least you can make fair comparisons.

Estimates might not have the same assumptions built in. One
electrician might put in the Square D Homelite series, while
another uses the premium QO series. One company might
anticipate repairing any holes and damage they do during
the installation, while another might expect you to hire
a carpenter when they're finished.

Here are some examples from my own experience:

New heating and air conditioning system -- only one of the three
contractors included the condensate pump I'd need because there
wasn't a drain nearby.

New bathtub / plumbing work -- only one of the three contractors
mentioned that the floor would be torn up and need to be replaced
too. The work was included in his price, but would have been a
surprise from the other two.

Finally, the quotations aren't firm. You can choose the company
you prefer to do the work and use other quotations as bargaining
leverage.

Robatoy wrote:

When I used to tender electrical work, I asked for 3 quotes, if the job
was big, I would call for 5 estimates. (Of course, electrical estimates
which included design would be treated differently.)
If I got 3 estimates, I'd throw out the top and bottom. Keeps everybody
honest, because I would tell them that up front.
If I got 5 estimates, I'd still toss the high and low and have a
meeting with the middle three. Those who didn't show for that 'battle',
too bad.
Most were professional enough to make their case.... but there was
always some asshole who thought he was beyond that. Wouldn't (couldn't)
compete.
Guys like that usually pull a number out of the sky and hope you go for
it.
I often saw them working for another contractor soon thereafter.

Count your blessings, Todd.

r

On Dec 4, 1:12 pm, wrote:
In a court of law an estimate is recognised as ± 15 %.
If a contract is awarded and approved as per an estimated cost It means that
legally it cannot exceed 15%.
Very few people are aware of the legal meaning.

And none in the US because apparently you have some very different
laws.

A quote can be firm and valid as per the listed contractual obligations
under specific listed and agreed circumstances and law of the land.
If a quote request or tender is properly done and no deviations are taken it
can be signed by both party and use as a contract.

I can't speak for Canadian law, nor for most of the US as the laws vary
so widely, so I'll have to speak in generalities.

You're generally wrong on almost everything you say. There are
frequently required clauses and information that are _never_ included
in an estimate. Without that information the contract can be
determined to be null and void. In fact, the contractor may be
breaking the law by omitting those terms. The contract may then be
tossed out entirely by a judge or used as a basis for an equitable
solution. The judge will seek a happy medium and try to prevent unjust
enrichment or undue harm...theoretically.

Or a quote or tender can be at cost plus. The intend is to engaged in doing
some work as per the owner's request and billing him as extra for cost
incurred in doing the requested work. This is not the best approach and its
to be avoided.

It is a great approach if the parties know each other, have worked
together before, are experienced in the work at hand and trust each
other. In other instances it can be a horrible approach for any of the
reasons listed.

However if you have to sign a cost plus contract the rate, material cost and
other incumbent or associate cost should be agreed upon before commencement
of work.

If all of the costs can be agreed upon up front, then why would cost
plus be chosen?

Generally a cost plus arrangement works best with a not-to-exceed cap
and with incentives for the contractor to bring the job in on time and
under the cap. Those incentives must be structured so that the
contractor stands to gain more from beating the schedule and budget.

R

When it comes to contract the law is the same for both the US and Canada.
At the exception of the State of Louisiana where they have kept some the
Napoleonic legal aspects.

Check the US Defence contracts for jurisprudence.
What I wrote is based on both the US and Canadian contractual laws.
As a starter your can check the US Black's Law Dictionary.
We, in Canada, use it for contract writhing, award and administration.
If you get an estimate to have your car repaired. Both you and the garage
agreed to it and you sign it.
Then when you come back to pick up car and your bill is more than the
estimate. When you ask why the manager states that they have made a mistake
and underestimated the job. Will you pay the bill if not what are your
legal recourses.

"RicodJour" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Dec 4, 1:12 pm, wrote:
In a court of law an estimate is recognised as ± 15 %.
If a contract is awarded and approved as per an estimated cost It means
that
legally it cannot exceed 15%.
Very few people are aware of the legal meaning.

And none in the US because apparently you have some very different
laws.

A quote can be firm and valid as per the listed contractual obligations
under specific listed and agreed circumstances and law of the land.
If a quote request or tender is properly done and no deviations are taken
it
can be signed by both party and use as a contract.

I can't speak for Canadian law, nor for most of the US as the laws vary
so widely, so I'll have to speak in generalities.

You're generally wrong on almost everything you say. There are
frequently required clauses and information that are _never_ included
in an estimate. Without that information the contract can be
determined to be null and void. In fact, the contractor may be
breaking the law by omitting those terms. The contract may then be
tossed out entirely by a judge or used as a basis for an equitable
solution. The judge will seek a happy medium and try to prevent unjust
enrichment or undue harm...theoretically.

Or a quote or tender can be at cost plus. The intend is to engaged in
doing
some work as per the owner's request and billing him as extra for cost
incurred in doing the requested work. This is not the best approach and
its
to be avoided.

It is a great approach if the parties know each other, have worked
together before, are experienced in the work at hand and trust each
other. In other instances it can be a horrible approach for any of the
reasons listed.

However if you have to sign a cost plus contract the rate, material cost
and
other incumbent or associate cost should be agreed upon before
commencement
of work.

If all of the costs can be agreed upon up front, then why would cost
plus be chosen?

Generally a cost plus arrangement works best with a not-to-exceed cap
and with incentives for the contractor to bring the job in on time and
under the cap. Those incentives must be structured so that the
contractor stands to gain more from beating the schedule and budget.

R

wrote:
When it comes to contract the law is the same for both the US and Canada.
At the exception of the State of Louisiana where they have kept some the
Napoleonic legal aspects.

I used to live in New Orleans. Don't get me started on that.

Check the US Defence contracts for jurisprudence.
What I wrote is based on both the US and Canadian contractual laws.
As a starter your can check the US Black's Law Dictionary.
We, in Canada, use it for contract writhing, award and administration.

This thread started about an electrician putting a sub-panel in a
garage. Surely you're not suggesting that such an estimate would be as
involved as what the DOD requires for bidding. The OP would not have a
complete set of drawings and specifications, would not require bonding,
shop drawings and submittals, etc. The DOD spends vast amounts to
attempt to make their contracts and bidding procedures as black and
white as possible, and they still have problems. Extrapolating from a
DOD contract (which is _not_ an estimate) to draw some conclusion about
how the law would apply in the all-gray world of home improvement
contracting is at best pointless and at worst misleading.

Someone can be technically 100% in the right, and still come out far
behind once the lawyers and court time have taken their toll. Instead
of proposing that someone follow a theoretical course, a course likely
to land them in trouble (the contractor won't simply lay down just
because you tell him that the contract is modeled on the DOD's), why
not offer advice on how to avoid the problems in the first place?

R

I used to live in New Orleans. Don't get me started on that.

Okay, I do not want to get you started. In got burned on demurrage law in
Louisiana.

As for bonding I think is like having tits on a bull. Better to have a
irrevocable banker's warranty to ensure the performance of the contractual
obligations.
As for the drawings, if you change, revised or modify anything you are
opening and altering the contract.
It is more positive to award a contract on end result and performance for an
agreed cost. A good example of this is that the contractor is responsible
for the design, procurement, assembly and testing to meet the performance
requirement on time to meet the agreed schedule.
Now I'll go back to my shop and play with my new tools ;-)

"RicodJour" wrote in message
ups.com...
wrote:
When it comes to contract the law is the same for both the US and Canada.
At the exception of the State of Louisiana where they have kept some the
Napoleonic legal aspects.

I used to live in New Orleans. Don't get me started on that.

Check the US Defence contracts for jurisprudence.
What I wrote is based on both the US and Canadian contractual laws.
As a starter your can check the US Black's Law Dictionary.
We, in Canada, use it for contract writhing, award and administration.

This thread started about an electrician putting a sub-panel in a
garage. Surely you're not suggesting that such an estimate would be as
involved as what the DOD requires for bidding. The OP would not have a
complete set of drawings and specifications, would not require bonding,
shop drawings and submittals, etc. The DOD spends vast amounts to
attempt to make their contracts and bidding procedures as black and
white as possible, and they still have problems. Extrapolating from a
DOD contract (which is _not_ an estimate) to draw some conclusion about
how the law would apply in the all-gray world of home improvement
contracting is at best pointless and at worst misleading.

Someone can be technically 100% in the right, and still come out far
behind once the lawyers and court time have taken their toll. Instead
of proposing that someone follow a theoretical course, a course likely
to land them in trouble (the contractor won't simply lay down just
because you tell him that the contract is modeled on the DOD's), why
not offer advice on how to avoid the problems in the first place?

R