Hello all,

We recently moved around the house a bit, and found that we have
enough room in what used to be the living room to install a smallish
pool table (it's a big room- too big to be comfortable when watching
tv)

I checked around, and those suckers are expensive! So, I looked at
just getting the slate- but it seems that's where all the cost is...
and it is still outside my price range right now.

My wife suggested one of those cheap little ones they sell at various
retailers from time to time, but I hate to throw away money on junk
made from termite puke and plastic veneer. They're too small, and as
an added bonus, ugly.

So here's my plan- and I'd welcome any advice or experiences you may
have had with parts or all of this.

I'm thinking a torsion box may be the thing for the table. My budget
will accomodate a top made of MDF and formica, but not stone. I've
got a working idea that I could make the torsion box with two or three
4' x 8' sheets of 3/4" MDF by cutting two 3' x 6' sheets for the top
and bottom, and making the internal ribs from the leftovers. It'd
make a small table, but I want to be able to use it, not look at it!


Because MDF is a little on the soft side, I'm thinking it couldn't
hurt to screw the top and bottom to the ribs, fill the screw heads
with bondo, sand flat, and then laminate the top to make it a little
less prone to dents and dings.

Here are the main points of consideration as I see them:

1. Will 3/4" MDF that has been laminated be tough enough to withstand
the odd billiard ball dropped on it, or is it going to look like the
surface of the moon in a few months?

2. With the torsion box design, is it necessary to laminate both sides
to equalize moisture content changes, or does the lattice inside
eliminate that as a concern?

3. Would it add structural strength (beyond simple ballast) to fill
the cavities between the ribs with some material (foam board, sand,
concrete, whatever you fancy for something like this...) or is that an
unnecessary step? To make the table heavy, I can always weigh down
the legs.

General torsion box advice/experiences welcomed here- I know a lot of
you guys use them as assembly tables, and I figure those must get a
bit of abuse as well.

Lest anyone get too worked up about the basic premise- I fully
understand that this won't make for a professional table, but I'm not
a pool shark, so I figure it'll be good enough for screwing around in
the rec room. It's got to be better than a $200 plastic thing,
anyhow. I just want to avoid any particularly stupid mistakes when
figuring out the general plan for the top.

Also, I have specified MDF as opposed to plywood because it is a waste
to use funiture grade hardwood ply and then cover it with felt, and
the general softwood stuff is too irregular for me to trust it in this
application.

I'm thinking a torsion box may be the thing for the table. My budget
will accomodate a top made of MDF and formica, but not stone.

How about a bed made of Slatron, which is like particle board but 20x
denser and made especially for pool tables? Players regard anything
not-slate as a toy, but I think Slatron is as close as you can get.
Anything else is not going to be flat or stable enough. Even commercial
Slatron tables are only warranteed for 7 years.

There's something else called Permaslate, but it's harder to find info
on.

On 22 Sep 2006 23:26:17 -0700, "boorite" wrote:

I'm thinking a torsion box may be the thing for the table. My budget
will accomodate a top made of MDF and formica, but not stone.

How about a bed made of Slatron, which is like particle board but 20x
denser and made especially for pool tables? Players regard anything
not-slate as a toy, but I think Slatron is as close as you can get.
Anything else is not going to be flat or stable enough. Even commercial
Slatron tables are only warranteed for 7 years.

There's something else called Permaslate, but it's harder to find info
on.

Thanks for the suggestion- I'm going to run a search on it now. Maybe
there's a way to integrate the two (Slatron and a torsion box, that
is) and get more than 7 yrs out of it.

On 22 Sep 2006 23:26:17 -0700, "boorite" wrote:

I'm thinking a torsion box may be the thing for the table. My budget
will accomodate a top made of MDF and formica, but not stone.

How about a bed made of Slatron, which is like particle board but 20x
denser and made especially for pool tables? Players regard anything
not-slate as a toy, but I think Slatron is as close as you can get.
Anything else is not going to be flat or stable enough. Even commercial
Slatron tables are only warranteed for 7 years.

There's something else called Permaslate, but it's harder to find info
on.

Well... I did check on the stuff, but it kind of looks like it it is
almost as expensive as a slate kit. As you seem to have some
knowledge of the process and construction, have you ever run across a
torsion box system for a pool table? I've been doing some searching,
and it would appear that this hasn't been done, at least commercially.

While the Slatron thing is sort of interesting, I can see why they
have a limited warranty- even if you've got mdf a million inches thick
compressed to an inch, it'll still be mdf, and prone to warp in
humidity. Seems like a little engineering ala the torsion box could
go a long way in this application.

On the bright side, the forums I encountered that mentioned Slatron
also mentioned MDF, so it must be at least marginally suitable for the
application- at least for a non-expert like myself.

I think a torsion box would work well.
I would start with 3/4 HDF (http://www.internationalhardboard.com)
It has double the impact resistance over MDF and would make a wonderful
substrate for laminate.
Whenever you laminate anything, and flatness is important, always use a
balance sheet on the other side, even if it is a torsion box. (DON'T
ask!)
The next trick is to get your adhesive onto the laminate and substrate
without a variance in thickness. One word: spray. Those cans of 3M work
really well... a bit pricy.

It is difficult to make a uniform sandwich.
I would never screw into the lattice/matrix, unless you made it from
hardwood. MDF/HDF simply will not hold a screw in the endgrain. I
wouldn't use screws at all.
Make sure the bottom sheet is supported on a flat surface. Trace the
outlines of your lattice. Pour a copious amount of white PVA within the
traces, put the lattice down and pour lots of white, thick PVA glue on
the top of the lattice edges and lay down the top sheet. Let it find
its own level and then weigh down with enough bags of topsoil to
completely cover the project. A big vacuum bag would be ideal... but
who has one, eh? Topsoil is useful for all kinds of gardening
adventures. Sandbags are better, but what do you do with all that sand
afterwards? Do not touch for 48 hours.
Castle the top and bottom edges of the lattice by cutting saw-blade
grooves, 1/8 deep, across the strips on 1-1/2" intervals to balance air
pressure build-up between the compartments. Make sure the air can
escape to the outside of the box.

r

On 23 Sep 2006 04:00:52 -0700, Robatoy wrote:

Castle the top and bottom edges of the lattice by cutting saw-blade
grooves, 1/8 deep, across the strips on 1-1/2" intervals to balance air
pressure build-up between the compartments. Make sure the air can escape to
the outside of the box.

Why?

--
Art Greenberg
artg at eclipse dot net

Art Greenberg wrote:
On 23 Sep 2006 04:00:52 -0700, Robatoy wrote:

Castle the top and bottom edges of the lattice by cutting saw-blade
grooves, 1/8 deep, across the strips on 1-1/2" intervals to balance air
pressure build-up between the compartments. Make sure the air can escape to
the outside of the box.

Why?

Because you are building a pool table, not a barometer?

On 23 Sep 2006 04:00:52 -0700, "Robatoy" wrote:

I think a torsion box would work well.
I would start with 3/4 HDF (http://www.internationalhardboard.com)
It has double the impact resistance over MDF and would make a wonderful
substrate for laminate.

I'll definately see if I can find that locally.

Whenever you laminate anything, and flatness is important, always use a
balance sheet on the other side, even if it is a torsion box. (DON'T
ask!)
The next trick is to get your adhesive onto the laminate and substrate
without a variance in thickness. One word: spray. Those cans of 3M work
really well... a bit pricy.

It's also quite doable to use a cup gun for laminate adhesive, and I
just happen to have one.

It is difficult to make a uniform sandwich.
I would never screw into the lattice/matrix, unless you made it from
hardwood. MDF/HDF simply will not hold a screw in the endgrain. I
wouldn't use screws at all.

Even better, really. That way there's nothing to fill in.

Make sure the bottom sheet is supported on a flat surface. Trace the
outlines of your lattice. Pour a copious amount of white PVA within the
traces, put the lattice down and pour lots of white, thick PVA glue on
the top of the lattice edges and lay down the top sheet. Let it find
its own level and then weigh down with enough bags of topsoil to
completely cover the project. A big vacuum bag would be ideal... but
who has one, eh? Topsoil is useful for all kinds of gardening
adventures. Sandbags are better, but what do you do with all that sand
afterwards? Do not touch for 48 hours.
Castle the top and bottom edges of the lattice by cutting saw-blade
grooves, 1/8 deep, across the strips on 1-1/2" intervals to balance air
pressure build-up between the compartments. Make sure the air can
escape to the outside of the box.

r

All good suggestions- thanks!

I question the economics of this project. Your first message indicated that
you were trying to save money. Most of us gave up on the notion that home
woodworking was saving money. With modern manufacturing methods, the savings
just aren't there. Any significant savings you are likely to see in this
are going to be offset by lack of longevity of the table. The first place I
looked for pool tables wanted less than $3000.00 for an American made, slate
bed, fully installed, warranted for life table. Seemed pretty reasonable to
me. I don't see you spending less to build one unless your final project
says home made and half assed all over it.
"Prometheus" wrote in message
...
On 22 Sep 2006 23:26:17 -0700, "boorite" wrote:

I'm thinking a torsion box may be the thing for the table. My budget
will accomodate a top made of MDF and formica, but not stone.

How about a bed made of Slatron, which is like particle board but 20x
denser and made especially for pool tables? Players regard anything
not-slate as a toy, but I think Slatron is as close as you can get.
Anything else is not going to be flat or stable enough. Even commercial
Slatron tables are only warranteed for 7 years.

There's something else called Permaslate, but it's harder to find info
on.

Well... I did check on the stuff, but it kind of looks like it it is
almost as expensive as a slate kit. As you seem to have some
knowledge of the process and construction, have you ever run across a
torsion box system for a pool table? I've been doing some searching,
and it would appear that this hasn't been done, at least commercially.

While the Slatron thing is sort of interesting, I can see why they
have a limited warranty- even if you've got mdf a million inches thick
compressed to an inch, it'll still be mdf, and prone to warp in
humidity. Seems like a little engineering ala the torsion box could
go a long way in this application.

On the bright side, the forums I encountered that mentioned Slatron
also mentioned MDF, so it must be at least marginally suitable for the
application- at least for a non-expert like myself.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 13:39:15 GMT, "CW" wrote:

I question the economics of this project. Your first message indicated that
you were trying to save money. Most of us gave up on the notion that home
woodworking was saving money. With modern manufacturing methods, the savings
just aren't there. Any significant savings you are likely to see in this
are going to be offset by lack of longevity of the table. The first place I
looked for pool tables wanted less than $3000.00 for an American made, slate
bed, fully installed, warranted for life table. Seemed pretty reasonable to
me. I don't see you spending less to build one unless your final project
says home made and half assed all over it.

Well, I'll work the numbers for you. First off, I have all the tools
already, so I'm not going to count them in.

Materials:

$900 -- slate or $75 mdf torsion box
$300 (give or take) pockets & bumpers

So there we're at $375-
I can put another $200-500 into that, and build the legs and rails out
of solid hardwood (probably birch, but I haven't decided)

I'm not going to count the time, because it's for me and I'll enjoy
the project.

So, it'll run at a rough estimate around $1100 (figuring tax, balls,
felt, cues, unexpected hardware, etc)

While this doesn't seem like much of a savings, you have to figure in
shipping and setup fees, which would run close to $400, and the fact
that a $1200 slate table is almost always made with a cheap and
unattractive laminated MDF rail system and legs. It is also going to
be next to impossible to move if I sell my house or just want to
change it's location. A lighter torsion box table would have the
benefit of being able to move it coupled with a much more pleasing
base should I decide to change it into a dining room table at some
point in the future.

So, given that, I'd say it'll save me at least a couple grand and fit
my needs more precisely than a manufactured unit. Even setting aside
the price tags, it is still a savings in that the value of it will be
greater to me than something that looks like it came from the local
pub.

Don't mean to snipe at you, I just really do see a real savings in
making my own stuff- the trick is to compare apples to apples, and in
this case, I feel I can get a table that looks like it cost $5000 for
the cost of one that looks like I got it at a yard sale. As far as
the table goes, if it works at all, it's good enough- I'm not a pool
shark, I just like goofing around with it. If the MDF goes south in 5
or 10 years, I can always replace it- and it will be cheaper than
fixing a cracked slate!

I just priced a table. Made of maple, full size 8 foot slate top, free
shipping, free installation, American made. $2614.00.
http://www.pooltablesusa.com/
Construction details on their site.

"Prometheus" wrote in message
...

Would a kitchen cabinet top perhaps be cheaper and easier to obtain and
be more likely to stay flat? If you can't afford slate, might Corian be
within your reach? If so then it'll probably be good enough for the rec
room and might last you much more than a couple of years.

J.

Doubt it is very flat.
"John" wrote in message
...
Would a kitchen cabinet top perhaps be cheaper and easier to obtain and
be more likely to stay flat? If you can't afford slate, might Corian be
within your reach? If so then it'll probably be good enough for the rec
room and might last you much more than a couple of years.

J.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 12:31:49 -0400, John wrote:

Would a kitchen cabinet top perhaps be cheaper and easier to obtain and
be more likely to stay flat? If you can't afford slate, might Corian be
within your reach? If so then it'll probably be good enough for the rec
room and might last you much more than a couple of years.

I guess the concern I have with the cabinet top is that the ones I've
seen were made of particle board, and do not have the extra support of
the internal ribs.

Corian is something I'll have to look into, but IIRC, I could just get
slate or granite for that price. I've put some thought into getting
granite measuring tops one at a time and setting them as well, but
that has it's own problems, mainly in drilling and cutting the pocket
reliefs.

Prometheus wrote:
Hello all,

We recently moved around the house a bit, and found that we have
enough room in what used to be the living room to install a smallish
pool table (it's a big room- too big to be comfortable when watching
tv)

I checked around, and those suckers are expensive! So, I looked at
just getting the slate- but it seems that's where all the cost is...
and it is still outside my price range right now.

snip

Take a look at a bumper pool table with a removable top to make it a std
table.

At one time in my life, was a very serious pool/billiards/snooker player.

I found trying to play on anything other than a full sized regulation
table very frustrating; however, bumper pool was a lot of fun.

Lew

Sat, Sep 23, 2006, 5:17pm (EDT+4)
(Lew*Hodgett) doth sayeth:
snip bumper pool was a lot of fun.

Yeah, it was, my old man got one when I was a kid. But after
awhile I got good enough to pretty much sink each ball with one shot.
Wasn't quite as much fun after that.



JOAT
You'll never get anywhere if you believe what you "hear". What do you
"know"?.
- Granny Weatherwax

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 17:17:16 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

Prometheus wrote:
Hello all,

We recently moved around the house a bit, and found that we have
enough room in what used to be the living room to install a smallish
pool table (it's a big room- too big to be comfortable when watching
tv)

I checked around, and those suckers are expensive! So, I looked at
just getting the slate- but it seems that's where all the cost is...
and it is still outside my price range right now.

snip

Take a look at a bumper pool table with a removable top to make it a std
table.

At one time in my life, was a very serious pool/billiards/snooker player.

I found trying to play on anything other than a full sized regulation
table very frustrating; however, bumper pool was a lot of fun.

That was the wife's idea, and we were going to go look at those
tomorrow. Good to hear another vote in favor of that- I've never
played bumper pool, so I was a little leery of the idea.

Prometheus wrote:

That was the wife's idea, and we were going to go look at those
tomorrow. Good to hear another vote in favor of that- I've never
played bumper pool, so I was a little leery of the idea.

Add a couple of "little greenies" to the mix and you take "fun" to a
whole new level.

Some of them even have a table top that creates a poker table, if that
interests you.

Lew

Fri, Sep 22, 2006, 8:01pm (EDT-1) (Prometheus)
doth confusedly posteth:
We recently moved around the house a bit, and found that we have enough
room in what used to be the living room to install a smallish pool table
(it's a big room- too big to be comfortable when watching tv) snip

Are yyou saying you moved your persons around your house? Or that
you move the house itself?

The one thing in life that I think I'm actually envious of other
people about is that I don't have room for a pool table. But if I did,
the only type I would want is one of the older tables, the type used in
real pool halls when I was a kid. You can actually buy one that'd been
professionally refurbished for a pretty reasonable price. Last time I
checked around $1,000-1,500, and usually includes setup in your home,
which I consider a pretty decent price. What I would consider gravy
would be a room with one of those old pool tables, AND an old
refurbished snooker table, pool chairs, the wires with the score
markers, a pill pool bottle, the whole nine yards. Children would NOT
allowed to play, no drinks on the tables, no masse shote, etc., in other
words, all the old pool hall rules. And GREEN felt, none of the tan,
blue, or other sissy colors; pool tables are meant to have green felt.
Ah, brings back memories of a well spent youth.

I dunno about any of what you've asked, but do know theres plans
on-line, both pay and free.



JOAT
You'll never get anywhere if you believe what you "hear". What do you
"know"?.
- Granny Weatherwax

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 17:54:50 -0400, (J T)
wrote:

Fri, Sep 22, 2006, 8:01pm (EDT-1) (Prometheus)
doth confusedly posteth:
We recently moved around the house a bit, and found that we have enough
room in what used to be the living room to install a smallish pool table
(it's a big room- too big to be comfortable when watching tv) snip

Are yyou saying you moved your persons around your house? Or that
you move the house itself?

To clarify: We moved the furniture from the living room into the
office and moved the computers into the living room. They only take
up about 3 feet of one end, so now we have a huge virtually empty
room.

The one thing in life that I think I'm actually envious of other
people about is that I don't have room for a pool table. But if I did,
the only type I would want is one of the older tables, the type used in
real pool halls when I was a kid. You can actually buy one that'd been
professionally refurbished for a pretty reasonable price. Last time I
checked around $1,000-1,500, and usually includes setup in your home,
which I consider a pretty decent price.

That's one of the options as well, just not on topic for the wreck. A
lot of bars open and close in these parts, and used tables can be
gotten if a guy looks around enough.

What I would consider gravy
would be a room with one of those old pool tables, AND an old
refurbished snooker table, pool chairs, the wires with the score
markers, a pill pool bottle, the whole nine yards. Children would NOT
allowed to play, no drinks on the tables, no masse shote, etc., in other
words, all the old pool hall rules. And GREEN felt, none of the tan,
blue, or other sissy colors; pool tables are meant to have green felt.
Ah, brings back memories of a well spent youth.

Well, that's sort of the idea, only with the PCs on one end of the
room, and only one table. I'm on the lookout for a good dartboard and
the hanging green light as well.

I dunno about any of what you've asked, but do know theres plans
on-line, both pay and free.

Checked out the plans, but I'll probably wing it for everything but
the bumper heights and pocket sizes if I do build it. I gave up other
peoples' plans a couple of years ago- they work fine, but it's not as
fun in the end.

Sun, Sep 24, 2006, 12:07am (EDT-1) (Prometheus)
doth stateth:
snip A lot of bars open and close in these parts, and used tables can
be gotten if a guy looks around enough. snip

Nah, I wasn't referring to bar pool tables, I meant "real" pool
tables, out of real pool halls. Better than nuthin' tho.



JOAT
You'll never get anywhere if you believe what you "hear". What do you
"know"?.
- Granny Weatherwax

When I was a kid, my uncles played a game called carambole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carambole_billiards
They would play that for entire Saturdays and get solidly ****faced
doing so.
They also played a game with a wooden stick, like a wicket standing
upright at a certain spot on the pool table... looked like a white
dowel 5/8" x 4"?

Oh.. and green... definitely green cloth. *shuddering at the thought of
other colours*


r

Robatoy wrote:

When I was a kid, my uncles played a game called carambole.

snip

My dad was a tough task master.

He taught me how to play 3 cushion billiards, then proceeded to whip my
ass until I got good enough to at least be competitive.

Took a couple of years.

Lew