Hiya Folks,
Was out last weekend gathering the logs I need to build a bed and a few end
tables for a cabin in the woods. I will have to remove the bark and let
them dry before I can do much else but while I was wielding the chainsaw
searching for the next piece, I wondered something. When it's cold, does
the moisture inside trees freeze? I kind of suspect that with all the other
substances generated within the tree, it actually becomes a natural anti
freeze if you will but wasn't sure. Just curious more than anything.
Cheers,
cc

On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 21:28:00 -0700, "James \"Cubby\" Culbertson"
wrote:

Hiya Folks,
Was out last weekend gathering the logs I need to build a bed and a few end
tables for a cabin in the woods. I will have to remove the bark and let
them dry before I can do much else but while I was wielding the chainsaw
searching for the next piece, I wondered something. When it's cold, does
the moisture inside trees freeze? I kind of suspect that with all the other
substances generated within the tree, it actually becomes a natural anti
freeze if you will but wasn't sure. Just curious more than anything.

Took some persistance, but Google eventually gave these up:

"As fall draws on into winter, the tree's cell membranes become more
and more permeable to water - that is, the colder it gets, the more
water will move outside the cell. The cell membrane collapses like a
deflated balloon over the vital contents of the cell, preserving it
until spring."

http://www.montshire.org/minute/mm011231.html

http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/ilum1f98.html


-Leuf

On Sat, 01 Apr 2006 00:16:22 -0500, Leuf
wrote:

http://www.montshire.org/minute/mm011231.html

http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/ilum1f98.html

And one more, somewhat contradictory to the first:

"Trees make a natural antifreeze to survive freezes. They do this in
two stages.

The first requires a gentle cooling-down to below 55 but not to
freezing. The tree starts to gather sugars and break down stored
starches.

As the weather chills over a few days, trees start to change their
living membranes to maintain a liquid, cold-temperature form.

Trees easily damaged by cold usually can't modify their membranes,
which become impermeable solids when cold and suffocate the cells.

Stage two happens below freezing. Trees use collected sugars and
proteins to bind water inside living cells and prevent ice crystals
from forming.

Between the cells, ice can form and pull water from the cells. If too
much ice forms, new or sensitive tissues are mangled."

http://georgiafaces.caes.uga.edu/get...fm?storyid=610


-Leuf

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
Hiya Folks,
Was out last weekend gathering the logs I need to build a bed and a few end
tables for a cabin in the woods. I will have to remove the bark and let
them dry before I can do much else but while I was wielding the chainsaw
searching for the next piece, I wondered something. When it's cold, does
the moisture inside trees freeze? I kind of suspect that with all the other
substances generated within the tree, it actually becomes a natural anti
freeze if you will but wasn't sure. Just curious more than anything.
Cheers,
cc


Damn right it can freeze! Splits the tree right
down the middle. I've never seen an evergreen
split (probably do though) but hardwoods split. A
temperature of about -50F one year where I was
going to school killed 25-50 of the hardwood trees.

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
Hiya Folks,
Was out last weekend gathering the logs I need to build a bed and a few end
tables for a cabin in the woods. I will have to remove the bark and let
them dry before I can do much else but while I was wielding the chainsaw
searching for the next piece, I wondered something. When it's cold, does
the moisture inside trees freeze? I kind of suspect that with all the other
substances generated within the tree, it actually becomes a natural anti
freeze if you will but wasn't sure. Just curious more than anything.

I think the old wisdom was it "went to the roots". The tree is driest
in winter. Doesn't really answer your question though, because there is
not "no moisture" in the trunk.

er
--
email not valid

On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 21:28:00 -0700, "James \"Cubby\" Culbertson"
wrote:

When it's cold, does the moisture inside trees freeze?

Obviously it's both yes and no, depending.

Sap is resistant to freezing. Increasing the sugar content in sap makes
it more resistant to freezing, which is why you can't get maple syrup in
a place with mild winters.

Free water may indeed freeze. Freezing water expands, rupturing cell
membranes. So in the Fall period, some trees pump water outside the
cells by osmosis, leaving the cells themselves almost dry. If there is
any freezing, this happens _between_ the important parts, not inside
them, and there's simply some temporary distortion.

Some species have a thick corky bark layer that can freeze without
damaging anything important. Ice is a better insulator than water, so
the core of the tree stays unfrozen.

The tree may indeed freeze and die. Sometimes you even see branches that
have been split open by this.

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
When it's cold, does
the moisture inside trees freeze? I kind of suspect that with all the
other substances generated within the tree, it actually becomes a natural
anti freeze if you will but wasn't sure. Just curious more than
anything.
Cheers,
cc


Damn right it can freeze! Splits the tree right down the middle. I've
never seen an evergreen split (probably do though) but hardwoods split. A
temperature of about -50F one year where I was going to school killed
25-50 of the hardwood trees.

Freezing point depression - why salt melts snow - has been covered. But
below around 15 F they switch to sand only, because salt water can freeze.
So even trees with anti freeze can run out of luck if it gets cold enough.
Less overall water, greater amount of solute all to no avail. Denser woods
are more vulnerable than those which have some larger vessels to collapse
and take up the pressure from the expanding ice.

Evergreens get needle burn real bad in cold weather, depending on species.
Sort of like freeze-drying the vegetation.

On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 21:28:00 -0700, "James \"Cubby\" Culbertson"
wrote:

I will have to remove the bark and let
them dry before I can do much else but while I was wielding the chainsaw
searching for the next piece, I wondered something.

I've done a lot of tree-felling/log-cutting. So much so I had to
purchase a new saw recently. The old one finally gave up the ghost.
I've also done some wondering in my time. I'm here to tell you that
is is a VERY bad habit to do both at the same time, except to wonder
why you are doing that in the first place and not lying on a nice warm
beach.
..
..
..
Wrt the freezing, it is a mixed reaction of events. Trees being
living things are complex. The sugars and other chemical composites
form a natural antifreeze, and the cells react to such change. Not
all trees can survive -40, so it's a matter of the chemistry of that
particular plant, and plants in all their variety are incredible
chemical factories.

"Guess who" wrote in message
...
I've done a lot of tree-felling/log-cutting. So much so I had to
purchase a new saw recently. The old one finally gave up the ghost.
I've also done some wondering in my time. I'm here to tell you that
is is a VERY bad habit to do both at the same time, except to wonder
why you are doing that in the first place and not lying on a nice warm
beach.
Oh yeah, them chainsaws can sure pack a punch if you're not careful. It
was actually as I was walking to another pile of logs that I thought of this
question. While cutting, my mind is on nothing but the cutting, similar to
using any power tool!
Cheers,
cc