What is happening at the PBS stations? Maybe they lost all their viewers
and decided they have to get back on track.

I turned on NYW and Norm did a whole show on router basics. Different
types, bit profiles, how to use them. Next week is going to be on the use
of a router table.

When TOH came on, I was stunned that they are actually going to work on a
rehab of - - - - - - - an old house! How will we keep up with the latest
fully automated appliances and personal zoned heating and cooling systems?
What if I have $750.000 and need guidance as to what hand carved marble
vanity and gilded faucets to buy? It looks like they may be trying to
educate the average homeowner and will leave us wealthy yuppies to fend for
ourselves to design a kitchen with ebony cabinets.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

Think of it as the "wreck for the hoi polloi"(sp?). Every now and then
someone forgets to DAGS before asking whether they want a left tilt or
a right. Or, you've been watching too much TV? (insert
smiley-winking-face emoticon here) Tom

tom wrote:

Think of it as the "wreck for the hoi polloi"(sp?). Every now and then
someone forgets to DAGS before asking whether they want a left tilt or
a right. Or, you've been watching too much TV? (insert
smiley-winking-face emoticon here) Tom




At least you guys still have these shows. NYW is still nonexistent
around here and TOH can be caught on a fuzzy channel. If I'm lucky.
About all they show is Ask This Old House.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..
What is happening at the PBS stations? Maybe they lost all their viewers
and decided they have to get back on track.

When TOH came on, I was stunned that they are actually going to work on a
rehab of - - - - - - - an old house! How will we keep up with the latest
fully automated appliances and personal zoned heating and cooling systems?

Political correctness. Not to worry, though, they're still going to spend
200K even with donated materials so that a "middle-class" family can afford
their 250 grand house.

Wishing I were middle-class so I could afford a 250 K house....

On 2/12/2006 7:28 AM George mumbled something about the following:
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..
What is happening at the PBS stations? Maybe they lost all their viewers
and decided they have to get back on track.

When TOH came on, I was stunned that they are actually going to work on a
rehab of - - - - - - - an old house! How will we keep up with the latest
fully automated appliances and personal zoned heating and cooling systems?

Political correctness. Not to worry, though, they're still going to spend
200K even with donated materials so that a "middle-class" family can afford
their 250 grand house.

Wishing I were middle-class so I could afford a 250 K house....



I'm middle-class, and I can't afford a 250k house. Well, I can't afford
it and still be able to do all the OTHER things I like/want to do.
Everyone I know who has 250k house around here who is in my income
class, struggle to find the money to enjoy doing half the things I enjoy
doing. For me, 5 acres of land and a doublewide trailer, is perfectly
fine. I have a total of about $85,000 invested in the property, the
trailer, the shed/workshop, etc., refinanced a couple of months ago to
shorten my term and knock some points off, and to pay off a few other
bills, and now only have 10 years left to pay instead of 17 and pay
about the same per month as I did before.

Now, I do plan on building my retirement home in about 10 years (right
now thinking about a geodesic), but it's all going to be paid for cash.
I have no intentions of having anything but basic bills (elec, water,
cable, internet, etc) to pay when I retire in 15 years.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..

When TOH came on, I was stunned that they are actually going to work on a
rehab of - - - - - - - an old house! How will we keep up with the latest
fully automated appliances and personal zoned heating and cooling systems?
What if I have $750.000 and need guidance as to what hand carved marble
vanity and gilded faucets to buy? It looks like they may be trying to
educate the average homeowner and will leave us wealthy yuppies to fend
for ourselves to design a kitchen with ebony cabinets.

Good. I miss the old Bob Vila kind of TOH. Its more like these days that
TOH is being showered with rich people wanting cheapie construction work
while the common people who gladly participate are left out in the cold.
The last episode with the single guy spending obscene amounts of money and
only participating in color selection was boring.

"Leon" wrote in message
news

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..

When TOH came on, I was stunned that they are actually going to work on a
rehab of - - - - - - - an old house! How will we keep up with the latest
fully automated appliances and personal zoned heating and cooling
systems? What if I have $750.000 and need guidance as to what hand carved
marble vanity and gilded faucets to buy? It looks like they may be
trying to educate the average homeowner and will leave us wealthy yuppies
to fend for ourselves to design a kitchen with ebony cabinets.

Good. I miss the old Bob Vila kind of TOH. Its more like these days that
TOH is being showered with rich people wanting cheapie construction work
while the common people who gladly participate are left out in the cold.
The last episode with the single guy spending obscene amounts of money and
only participating in color selection was boring.

I saw the last episode of that modern house they did. I think the money
spent on materials for that "remodel" would buy adequate housing for a dozen
families. They imported teak beams from asia. They had the cabinets built
in Italy. I guess that USA built cabinets were not good enough. The
imported rock from Bulgaria and paid a mason for weeks on end to place a
million little peices of stone on a couple of low walls in the front yard
and chimney.

I am surprised they did not have a toliet carved out of gemstone. What I
don't understand is the need to hook up everything in the house to a digital
controller of some kind. They had the capacity to electronically lower and
raise window shades from a wireless controller. What is the extra cost to
include NASA style controls into a house? And wouldn't this type of video
game fanaticism in household controls add greatly to the lard on the owners
butts?

I could go on and on. If I had some big bucks to spend on a house, I would
not be importing crap from around the world or installing a super compuer to
run things. It is a house, not a space ship!

I would spend the money on a good home gym, a wood shop, metal shop, a small
blacksmith facility, a quilt room for the missus, etc. Ya know, practical
things where real americans make things with their hands. Talk about an
anachronism.

Whaddaya expect from a curmudgeon?

grumble, grumble, bitch, bitch

On Sun 12 Feb 2006 08:13:10a, Odinn wrote in
:

I'm middle-class, and I can't afford a 250k house. Well, I can't afford
it and still be able to do all the OTHER things I like/want to do.
Everyone I know who has 250k house around here who is in my income
class, struggle to find the money to enjoy doing half the things I enjoy
doing.

Here in Madison WI, all we have to do is stay here a few more years, and
we'll have that 250k house. :-) Whether we like it or not.

What's frustrating me most about Norm these days is the move to expensive
machinery. For that shop clock, he says, "I'll just cut this cove on my
molder-shaping machine here" and just runs it through his molder. SWMBO and
I both bust out laughing. Sure! Just fire up the ol' shaper-molder and away
we go!

Then he says "If you don't have a molder of your very own, you can go to
your lumber yard and probably find something pretty darn close". No mention
of using the table saw to cut any molding.

Sigh. I really like his old stuff and I still get something out of his
current shows, but it ain't like it yoosta bee. Funny how often I say that
these days.

He's been around only since 88? I could have sworn it was longer than that.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:32:41 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


"Leon" wrote in message
news

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..

When TOH came on, I was stunned that they are actually going to work on a
rehab of - - - - - - - an old house! How will we keep up with the latest
fully automated appliances and personal zoned heating and cooling
systems? What if I have $750.000 and need guidance as to what hand carved
marble vanity and gilded faucets to buy? It looks like they may be
trying to educate the average homeowner and will leave us wealthy yuppies
to fend for ourselves to design a kitchen with ebony cabinets.

Good. I miss the old Bob Vila kind of TOH. Its more like these days that
TOH is being showered with rich people wanting cheapie construction work
while the common people who gladly participate are left out in the cold.
The last episode with the single guy spending obscene amounts of money and
only participating in color selection was boring.

I saw the last episode of that modern house they did. I think the money
spent on materials for that "remodel" would buy adequate housing for a dozen
families. They imported teak beams from asia. They had the cabinets built
in Italy. I guess that USA built cabinets were not good enough. The
imported rock from Bulgaria and paid a mason for weeks on end to place a
million little peices of stone on a couple of low walls in the front yard
and chimney.

I am surprised they did not have a toliet carved out of gemstone. What I
don't understand is the need to hook up everything in the house to a digital
controller of some kind. They had the capacity to electronically lower and
raise window shades from a wireless controller. What is the extra cost to
include NASA style controls into a house? And wouldn't this type of video
game fanaticism in household controls add greatly to the lard on the owners
butts?

I could go on and on. If I had some big bucks to spend on a house, I would
not be importing crap from around the world or installing a super compuer to
run things. It is a house, not a space ship!

I would spend the money on a good home gym, a wood shop, metal shop, a small
blacksmith facility, a quilt room for the missus, etc. Ya know, practical
things where real americans make things with their hands. Talk about an
anachronism.

Whaddaya expect from a curmudgeon?

grumble, grumble, bitch, bitch

Far be it for me to defend a lot of this stuff but some observations:

A number of years ago I got to talk with Steve Thomas, then the host
of TOH. I asked him why they were now in the business of showcasing
all of the latest doo-dads and the high-end construction. He replied
that I should not forget that this is a television show and is meant
to be entertainment for the masses, not a blow-by-blow how-to-do-it
show for the DIY crowd.

Nevertheless, there are real people who live like that. I was looking
at the latest issue of "Tucson Lifestyle" at the dentist's office the
other day. They were featuring ten of the most expensive houses
(currently for sale) in the area. Number 1 was on the market for
$19.5 M and was something like 26,000 sq ft, seven baths and six
bedrooms, etc...

I have a friend who lives in a gated community in the nose bleed
section of the foothills overlooking Tucson, who reports that many of
the multi-million dollar homes in his neighborhood are empty most of
the year. The owners only use them a few weeks when the come out to
play golf in the winter.

BTW, our PBS station is still showing the "modern house" series. The
last episode was the one where Norm visited the cabinet shop, which
wasn't located in Italy but New England.

I'm not a professional cabinet maker but there are some in this forum
and I'll bet a lot of them would love to get (and maybe have)
commissions from some of these rich folks. At least some of the
wealth is getting spread around to some craftsmen. Can't be all bad.

Here in the DC area 250000 for a house is cheap! even 1 bedroom condo in the
area sell for more than 300000.!!!

The thing that got to me the most was the garage...those plastic slats
are ok I guess, but that one wall of cabinets...$15K!! And the host
says something like "gee, now no one has an excuse for a dirty garage".

"Dan" wrote in message
.. .

He's been around only since 88? I could have sworn it was longer than
that.

He was around on TOH long before 1988. Perhaps that is what you remember.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:01:20 GMT, Dan wrote:

On Sun 12 Feb 2006 08:13:10a, Odinn wrote in
:

I'm middle-class, and I can't afford a 250k house. Well, I can't afford
it and still be able to do all the OTHER things I like/want to do.
Everyone I know who has 250k house around here who is in my income
class, struggle to find the money to enjoy doing half the things I enjoy
doing.

Here in Madison WI, all we have to do is stay here a few more years, and
we'll have that 250k house. :-) Whether we like it or not.

Same in Tucson. The tax assessor couldn't be happier.


What's frustrating me most about Norm these days is the move to expensive
machinery. For that shop clock, he says, "I'll just cut this cove on my
molder-shaping machine here" and just runs it through his molder. SWMBO and
I both bust out laughing. Sure! Just fire up the ol' shaper-molder and away
we go!

Sheese. I could probably afford some of the machinery... it's the
lumber I can't afford. "I'll just glue up these six 12" wide planks
of sixteen-quarter, quarter-sawn Brazilan mahogany to make our table
top."


Then he says "If you don't have a molder of your very own, you can go to
your lumber yard and probably find something pretty darn close". No mention
of using the table saw to cut any molding.

Yeah, I'll just run down to Home Depot and pick up some black walnut
moulding.


Sigh. I really like his old stuff and I still get something out of his
current shows, but it ain't like it yoosta bee. Funny how often I say that
these days.

Isn't it [g]

And here in the SF Bay Area, my 1750sf semi-fixer-up'r cost $333k in 1997,
and is up 800K now. 3 bd house across the street sold for 1.15M last year!
A 1200sf dump down the street sold for $458K 2 years ago. But it's okay
because we were the first place to have gas hit $3/gal last year, so it all
works out!!!

Mike
Alameda, CA

"leonard" wrote in message
...
Here in the DC area 250000 for a house is cheap! even 1 bedroom condo in
the area sell for more than 300000.!!!

"Odinn" wrote in message

I'm middle-class, and I can't afford a 250k house.

Sure you can. Buy a $60,000 house and wait 25 years. Worked for me.

On 12 Feb 2006 08:12:27 -0800, wrote:

The thing that got to me the most was the garage...those plastic slats
are ok I guess, but that one wall of cabinets...$15K!! And the host
says something like "gee, now no one has an excuse for a dirty garage".

Because he'll pay to have the dust cleaned off it once in a while.

I particularly liked the steel reinforced half wall behind the vanity
so that it could cantilever off the wall with nothing under it for no
reason.


-Leuf

"Wes Stewart" wrote in message

A number of years ago I got to talk with Steve Thomas, then the host
of TOH. I asked him why they were now in the business of showcasing
all of the latest doo-dads and the high-end construction. He replied
that I should not forget that this is a television show and is meant
to be entertainment for the masses, not a blow-by-blow how-to-do-it
show for the DIY crowd.

The original concept was more of a DIY than a showcase. As you point out,
people do live like that, but not the masses being entertained. My guess
also is that the typical PBS supporter and contributor has a higher income
level that Joe Sixpac and that is the part of the masses they want to court.


I'm not a professional cabinet maker but there are some in this forum
and I'll bet a lot of them would love to get (and maybe have)
commissions from some of these rich folks. At least some of the
wealth is getting spread around to some craftsmen. Can't be all bad.

The higher priced is usually the most profitable. If you have the talent,
that is where I'd want to make my living.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

"Wes Stewart" wrote

BTW, our PBS station is still showing the "modern house" series. The
last episode was the one where Norm visited the cabinet shop, which
wasn't located in Italy but New England.

Some furniture and glass fused tiles were made in New England. The kitchen
cabinets were made in New England.

The big, tall, dark cabinets and bookshelves were made in Italy.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 14:56:14 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


"Wes Stewart" wrote

BTW, our PBS station is still showing the "modern house" series. The
last episode was the one where Norm visited the cabinet shop, which
wasn't located in Italy but New England.

Some furniture and glass fused tiles were made in New England. The kitchen
cabinets were made in New England.

The big, tall, dark cabinets and bookshelves were made in Italy.

Okay. The last episode shown here was Program #2514.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/tvpr...062246,00.html

The Rhode Island shop was doing stair treads, a bathroom vanity and
the cabinets for the library.

So we are kinda behind out here in the AZ desert where we don't need
radiant heat under the driveway. (I'm in Tucson but watch it on the
Phoenix PBS station)

Given the obscene sizes of some of the later TOH houses, I've found it
amusing how much space they fill with areas "where you can sit down and
read a book". They always say that. It's all they can do with that 200
sq. foot alcove in the hallway between the den and the entertainment
room, or between the master bath shower's foyer and the antedressingroom.

LOL...hard to count how many times we've heard that phrase (great place
to read a book) on TOH. Funny thing, with this last "modern" house, the
guy had a combined dining room / library...had some real nice, HUGE
bookshelves...filled with pottery of course, no books. Those were some
cool chairs in there though, but I'm not sure how comfy they would be
for a period of extended reading...I need to have arms on my "reading"
chairs. Those things must've have cost a fortune though...they visited
the place that makes them a while back...lot of labor in those.

Edwin:

The original concept was more of a DIY than a showcase. As you point out,
people do live like that, but not the masses being entertained. My guess
also is that the typical PBS supporter and contributor has a higher income
level that Joe Sixpac and that is the part of the masses they want to court.

My sense, PBS, which I support by the way, has gotten away from more
"show me" programming to showcase events. Even the cooking shows are
better on Food Network then on PBS. I remember watching Julia cook up
a storm and she showed you step-by-step how to do make whatever. Not so
anymore. For the "show me" kind of shows, the cable channels
(DIY/HGTV/Food Network)
have filled that in.

I don't blame Morsh and company for TOH direction (don't forget they
are now
owned by Time/Warner) any more then I blame HGTV for showing a couple
building a house on a slope in Boulder and not taking care of the muddy
driveway.
It's TV, not a how-to show. I think it's enteraining to see all of the
various
gadgets, whatever available for homes. I mean, I built our house just 2
years
ago and had put in a whole house video/audio system. Wouldn't have even
thought about that until I saw the first one they did on TOH. Take
shows
like TOH with a grain of salt people. The TOH of years ago disappeared
12-15 years ago. I think the turning point was the Concord barn. That
was
the first time, my memory serves, that they rebuilt (in this case
actually
build) a whole house vs just updating the kitchen.

My wife and I watch TOH as always, but they have moved away from
everyday
affordable remodels to whole house rebuilds years ago. The topper for
me was
when they did that Shingle Style home in Manchester. Now that was a
major
rebuild that cost over $2m.

If you want more "hands on' things, Hometime is still there for the
DIY's
and of course, HGTV and DIY can fill in as well.

Oh, a million dollars in my neck of the woods for a home doesn't put
you in the "rich" category at all. Now $2m, does!

MJ

Mark and Kim Smith wrote:
tom wrote:

Think of it as the "wreck for the hoi polloi"(sp?). Every now and then
someone forgets to DAGS before asking whether they want a left tilt or
a right. Or, you've been watching too much TV? (insert
smiley-winking-face emoticon here) Tom




At least you guys still have these shows. NYW is still nonexistent
around here and TOH can be caught on a fuzzy channel. If I'm lucky.
About all they show is Ask This Old House.

I hate to say this, but in the Detroit area, I can watch the Detroit
PBS or the Flint PBS, and NYW is on different schedules, showing
different episodes the same week.

Answer: satellite.

"Mark and Kim Smith" wrote in message
...


At least you guys still have these shows. NYW is still nonexistent
around here and TOH can be caught on a fuzzy channel. If I'm lucky.
About all they show is Ask This Old House.

On 2/12/2006 12:03 PM Edwin Pawlowski mumbled something about the following:
"Odinn" wrote in message

I'm middle-class, and I can't afford a 250k house.

Sure you can. Buy a $60,000 house and wait 25 years. Worked for me.

Well, I can't afford to purchase a house that is already at 250k

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

Those were some
cool chairs in there though, but I'm not sure how comfy they would be
for a period of extended reading...I need to have arms on my "reading"
chairs. Those things must've have cost a fortune though...they visited
the place that makes them a while back...lot of labor in those.

Keep in mind that any time they visit the place where something was
manufactured, there's almost no chance they are paying for whatever ends up
in the house.

Lee


--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

_________________________________
Lee Gordon
http://www.leegordonproductions.com

On 12 Feb 2006 15:02:10 -0800, wrote:

...Those were some cool chairs in there though, but I'm not sure how
comfy they would be for a period of extended reading...I need to have
arms on my "reading" chairs. Those things must've have cost a fortune
though...they visited the place that makes them a while back...lot of
labor in those.

Thomas Moser, as I recall. They certainly were well built, but I had
the same impression both about labor costs and comfort. I didn't think
about the arms, but I have to throw in with you on that, too.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

Lee Gordon wrote:

Keep in mind that any time they visit the place where something was
manufactured, there's almost no chance they are paying for whatever ends up
in the house.

A few years back, a company installed a hot tub in one of the projects.
Rumor has it, not only did TOH not pay for the installation, the spa
company paid TOH to do the job. The "selection" of the particular spa
had little to do with quality, as the spa company would like you to
believe in their ad copy.

Most of those shows are just a grout line from an infomercial.

Remember, television is a business, even PBS... NOTHING gets mentioned
by name unless it's been paid for. The most obvious examples are often
seen in racing, where different broadcasters have been known to refer to
the same event by different names, depending on how the naming rights
were sold.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 09:13:10 -0500, Odinn
wrote:

I'm middle-class, and I can't afford a 250k house. Well, I can't afford
it and still be able to do all the OTHER things I like/want to do.
Everyone I know who has 250k house around here who is in my income
class, struggle to find the money to enjoy doing half the things I enjoy
doing. For me, 5 acres of land and a doublewide trailer, is perfectly
fine. I have a total of about $85,000 invested in the property, the
trailer, the shed/workshop, etc., refinanced a couple of months ago to
shorten my term and knock some points off, and to pay off a few other
bills, and now only have 10 years left to pay instead of 17 and pay
about the same per month as I did before.

Heck, around here you can't own a postage stamp-sized lot that costs
under $250k. Average-sized homes go for over $500k and in some local
areas, for over $750k.

When we bought our house, it was worth less than $250k. Now, our
neighbor, with a smaller house and less land, recently sold his for
close to a million.

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 18:04:48 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:

The original concept was more of a DIY than a showcase. As you point out,
people do live like that, but not the masses being entertained. My guess
also is that the typical PBS supporter and contributor has a higher income
level that Joe Sixpac and that is the part of the masses they want to court.

But you have to remember that most of the people who are donating to
PBS aren't the Joe Sixpac DIY crowd, it's the upper crust
more-money-than-God people who want all the latest overpriced gadgets.
They don't want to do it themselves, they want to pay someone else to
do it while they sit around and watch PBS.

Remember, television is a business, even PBS... NOTHING gets mentioned
by name unless it's been paid for. The most obvious examples are often
seen in racing, where different broadcasters have been known to refer to
the same event by different names, depending on how the naming rights
were sold.

PBS used to be scrupulous about avoiding brand names. I remember watching
an early Julia Child cooking show in which they placed masking tape over the
word "Pyrex" on her measuing cup. I don't think it was because they hadn't
received a promotional fee from Corning; it was because they were living up
to (and perhaps overdoing) their designation of "non-commercial."
Somewhere along the way, that went out the window ... the Marvin window
whose product is never mentioned by name but which has a huge Marvin label
on every pane. I understand that in addition to donating the goods, the
manufacturers must pay a fee of upwards of $20,000 to have their products
featured on the program.
Last year I did a promotional/instructional video for a company called
Infiltrator Systems which makes components for septic systems. I later saw
the same system being installed on at a project house on Bob Vila's Home
Again. Being an overtly commercial enterprise, Vila's current show does not
have the same reluctance to mention brand names that his old show (TOH)
does. When I inquired about the appearance I found that Infiltrator not
only supplied the material, they also paid a fee to be allowed to make
reference to its use on Vila's show in their promotional materials. Not
only that, but the fee bought them the rights to mention Vila for only one
year. If they wanted to keep touting "As seen on Bob Vila's Home Again" in
newspaper or magazine ads or trade show displays, they had to re-up and pay
an additional fee.
Your example of broadcasters using different names to refer to racing events
reminds me of something annoying the the Hartford Courant used to do. When
I worked for what was then Radio 104, we used to put on an annual concert
called, naturally enough, "Radio 104 Fest." If they mentioned it at all,
the Courant would always call it the "104 Fest." For some reason they
couldn't bring themselves to call it by it's actual name.

Lee

--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

_________________________________
Lee Gordon
http://www.leegordonproductions.com

Lee Gordon wrote:
When
I worked for what was then Radio 104, we used to put on an annual concert
called, naturally enough, "Radio 104 Fest."

Back when Radio 104 was _good_. G

On 2/13/2006 1:57 PM Brian Henderson mumbled something about the following:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 09:13:10 -0500, Odinn
wrote:

I'm middle-class, and I can't afford a 250k house. Well, I can't afford
it and still be able to do all the OTHER things I like/want to do.
Everyone I know who has 250k house around here who is in my income
class, struggle to find the money to enjoy doing half the things I enjoy
doing. For me, 5 acres of land and a doublewide trailer, is perfectly
fine. I have a total of about $85,000 invested in the property, the
trailer, the shed/workshop, etc., refinanced a couple of months ago to
shorten my term and knock some points off, and to pay off a few other
bills, and now only have 10 years left to pay instead of 17 and pay
about the same per month as I did before.

Heck, around here you can't own a postage stamp-sized lot that costs
under $250k. Average-sized homes go for over $500k and in some local
areas, for over $750k.

When we bought our house, it was worth less than $250k. Now, our
neighbor, with a smaller house and less land, recently sold his for
close to a million.

That's why I live 50 miles out from such an area. My house payments and
taxes are so much less, that the extra fuel I spend driving to work is
less than 1/10 the savings. By having a $100k mortgage (doublewide
trailer and 5 acres of land) instead of a $250k or better mortgage, I
can afford to own a fairly new pickemup, a new car, a new Harley. It
allows me to take off almost any weekend and go to a NASCAR race. It
allows me to luxury of spending 3 weeks riding the Harley all over the
country, putting 7500 miles on it in 24 days
(http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/Sturgis2005).

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

Odinn wrote:

That's why I live 50 miles out from such an area. My house payments and
taxes are so much less, that the extra fuel I spend driving to work is
less than 1/10 the savings. By having a $100k mortgage (doublewide
trailer and 5 acres of land) instead of a $250k or better mortgage, I
can afford to own a fairly new pickemup, a new car, a new Harley.

But you own a home that depreciates...

B a r r y said:

Odinn wrote:

That's why I live 50 miles out from such an area. My house payments and
taxes are so much less, that the extra fuel I spend driving to work is
less than 1/10 the savings. By having a $100k mortgage (doublewide
trailer and 5 acres of land) instead of a $250k or better mortgage, I
can afford to own a fairly new pickemup, a new car, a new Harley.

But you own a home that depreciates...

Well, if you've seen the crap they throw up in the metro area that he
is avoiding (I live there), you would realize that his land is the
major investment. The cracker box "investment" house won't last much
more than 20 years, or just till it's about paid off. And the
remaining 1/6 acre lot is worthless. (To me, anyway...)
It's a banker/broker's wet dream. I'm with Odinn on this one...


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote in message
Well, if you've seen the crap they throw up in the metro area that he
is avoiding (I live there), you would realize that his land is the
major investment. The cracker box "investment" house won't last much
more than 20 years, or just till it's about paid off. And the
remaining 1/6 acre lot is worthless. (To me, anyway...)
It's a banker/broker's wet dream. I'm with Odinn on this one...

You just have to pick your areas. Sometimes you get hit on both ends ... the
"lot/land value" on my tax appraisal is increasing by about 10%/year, while
the "improvements" remain fairly constant.

We are paying $63sf + for "teardowns" on 50' x 100' lots in the area I am
currently building in ... and that's probably gone up in the last 30
minutes.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05

Greg G. wrote:

Well, if you've seen the crap they throw up in the metro area that he
is avoiding (I live there), you would realize that his land is the
major investment.

Agreed about the land. No question!


The cracker box "investment" house won't last much
more than 20 years, or just till it's about paid off. And the
remaining 1/6 acre lot is worthless.

Wanna' make a bet?

"Construction quality today" has been a hot topic for what, 100 years?

If the house meets code, even though it will require repairs, the value
will most likely at least keep up with inflation. A mobile home is
guaranteed to depreciate AND require repairs.

Barry

B a r r y said:

Greg G. wrote:

Well, if you've seen the crap they throw up in the metro area that he
is avoiding (I live there), you would realize that his land is the
major investment.

Agreed about the land. No question!

If I had only owned 30 acres of farmland in Roswell...
Growing up, no one wanted it - now it's Yuppie Land.

The cracker box "investment" house won't last much
more than 20 years, or just till it's about paid off. And the
remaining 1/6 acre lot is worthless.

Wanna' make a bet?

Well, you clipped off the "To me, anyway" part.
In an era when land is priced at millions per square foot in, oh, say
Manhattan, it's obviously not worthless to someone. But I place no
value on it, and sure as heck don't want to live there.

"Construction quality today" has been a hot topic for what, 100 years?

If the house meets code, even though it will require repairs, the value
will most likely at least keep up with inflation. A mobile home is
guaranteed to depreciate AND require repairs.

Ahh.. but. the mobile home only cost a few thousand dollars.
It is pretty much a given that it is disposable. As for maintenance,
well, it's pretty basic stuff. In 20 years, that plot of land will be
worth far more than the deteriorating McMansion - even though they
cost the same amount originally.

Perhaps I'm jaded due to the poor quality of new construction here.
I've lived in other states where the quality of work was far superior.
I think it's just a case of Atlanta having been a boom housing market,
and it attracted a lot of carpetbagging, skank developers like Ryland.

We barely have building codes here, compared to the north, and the
inspectors are willing to overlook just about anything - for a price.
Maintenance on the unsupervised beaner built $400k crap put here is
already huge. A large development nearby, less than three years old,
is already having roofs replaced and structural problems. Not to
mention the erosion and flooding problems due to the clear cutting and
terracing of the natural roll of the landscape. They are truly
abominations.

Heck, we live in a 15 year old house that is in need of constant
repair due to the low quality work and the total lack of code
enforcement during it's construction.

Yea, it's a McMansion. I didn't buy it, the other half did, before
her husband died. I'm the idiot who ended up with the maintenance
nightmares. I begged her to sell it right after we met, 'cause I
could see the light at the end of the tunnel - it was the oncoming 120
ton locomotive of major repairs.

No flashing, no drip edges, improper roof framing on the stupid bows
and other such pointless "curb appeal" flash, leaving chipboard as the
sole structural member, framing buried under grade and infested with
termites, etc, etc. Only the electrical and plumbing are even close
to code. Even the HVAC is fubar'd. We've replaced doors, windows,
siding, roof, structural components in much of the roofing and wall
framing. The builder must not have been able to read a blueprint,
because I can't imagine ANY architect designing something the way this
was built. They didn't even manage to get the studs on center
properly. The walls wave in and out so badly that the lap siding had
to be face nailed to keep the gaps from showing between overlaps. The
floors are sinking, uneven and squeak horrifically in the winter.
There were 3" of shingles hanging over all the edges, presumably to
supplant the nonexistant flashing and drip edges. It goes on and on.
A collection of the cheapest "builder special" crap available, thrown
up by the cheapest unskilled and untrained labor they could find.

I want to build my own new home, on a large plot of conservation land,
but ended up rebuilding this turd instead. Just to keep ahead of the
rot, decay and deterioration so we can sell it. Neither my father's
home, nor my first house, have needed any of this bull****, and they
are far, far older.

I could itemize much more here, but the point is that given a choice
between a plot of land, and a 1/6 acre corporate built McMansion - the
McMansion buyer is just a fuel screw for Greedy Corporate America.

Unwittingly, Like Me.


Greg G.

Greg G. wrote:


Ahh.. but. the mobile home only cost a few thousand dollars.
It is pretty much a given that it is disposable. As for maintenance,
well, it's pretty basic stuff. In 20 years, that plot of land will be
worth far more than the deteriorating McMansion - even though they
cost the same amount originally.

I think we're comparing apples to oranges. I don't remember ever
comparing building and mobile home values to unimproved land values.

Compare the actual resale values of ten year old mobile homes to ten
year old fixed homes, ANY ten year old home, on a lot of land of
identical value. If you like, feel free to find the most cherry mobile
home you can and the worst constructed 10 year old home you can, as long
as it can legally be occupied.

How's the resale value, vs. the new cost, expressed as a percentage,
look now?

The mobile home will almost always be less than 100% of it's value ten
years ago. The _house_, even if it's manufactured somewhere else, but
finished on site, will nearly always be more than 100% of it's value ten
years ago. If by chance, the mobile home is actually worth the same or
more than the purchase price 10 years ago (meaning a really strong local
real estate market), I'll bet the house has appreciated exponentially.

There's at least 50 years of data backing my point up in any real
estate, tax collector, or property appraiser's office. Just the way the
two items are treated differently by money lenders should give you at
least SOME clue. G

On 2/14/2006 2:47 PM B a r r y mumbled something about the following:
Greg G. wrote:


Ahh.. but. the mobile home only cost a few thousand dollars.
It is pretty much a given that it is disposable. As for maintenance,
well, it's pretty basic stuff. In 20 years, that plot of land will be
worth far more than the deteriorating McMansion - even though they
cost the same amount originally.

I think we're comparing apples to oranges. I don't remember ever
comparing building and mobile home values to unimproved land values.

Compare the actual resale values of ten year old mobile homes to ten
year old fixed homes, ANY ten year old home, on a lot of land of
identical value. If you like, feel free to find the most cherry mobile
home you can and the worst constructed 10 year old home you can, as long
as it can legally be occupied.

How's the resale value, vs. the new cost, expressed as a percentage,
look now?

The mobile home will almost always be less than 100% of it's value ten
years ago. The _house_, even if it's manufactured somewhere else, but
finished on site, will nearly always be more than 100% of it's value ten
years ago. If by chance, the mobile home is actually worth the same or
more than the purchase price 10 years ago (meaning a really strong local
real estate market), I'll bet the house has appreciated exponentially.

There's at least 50 years of data backing my point up in any real
estate, tax collector, or property appraiser's office. Just the way the
two items are treated differently by money lenders should give you at
least SOME clue. G

Okay, I paid $30,000 for my 95 doublewide in 99 and $35,000 for the 5
acres of land in 2000. I spent $7500 putting in a septic system and
having a spot leveled for the home and having it put on the property and
having the electrical hooked up and having the first 60 ft of my current
200 ft driveway concreted (the rest is gravel/mud). When setup in 2000,
it was appraised at $85,000. I've added a 16x16 back deck and built a
16x24 shed on the property (total cost of $5000 for the both) and it was
appraised a couple of months ago at $114,000. The property with no
improvements on it would sell for about $60,000 today. Looks to me like
the value of my (now 10 year old) doublewide hasn't depreciated.

Now let's look at the guy 1/2 mile from me who built his house around
the same time. He paid $30,000 for 4 acres, and spent $150,000 building
his 2400 sq ft house. He now has it on the market for $220,000 (about
$5000 below appraised value).

Let's compare the two now.
I have total of 30,000 + 35,000 + 7500 + 5000 = $77,500 invested in my
property that's appraised at $114,000 for $36,500 increase in value in 6
years and was able to move in within a month after closing on the property.

He has a total of 150,000 + 30,000 = $180,000 invested in his property
that's appraised at $225,000 for a $45,000 increase in value and he
wasn't able to move in for over 6 months after closing on his property.

The percentage of increase in value of my property is 32%, his 20%.
I've also spent considerably less per month for my mortgage than he has,
allowing me to spend money on other things.

Will his house last longer than my doublewide? Probably so, since I
plan on tearing my manufactured home down in 10 years and build a
geodesic home on the back of the property.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply