I have referenced all the books I can find and they all showcase the
typical joints for woodworking like lap, biscuit, mortice and tenon,
rabbet, dado, etc etc, but none of them seem to handle joints with
multiple pieces that cross each other like I am dealing with in this
design for my built-in workbench. I have identified the 7 different
joints in the illustration and started designing different types of
joints that are possible for the upper post cross joint. I would
like to get feedback on which would be the best from a strength
standpoint. Of course any other things I may need to consider are
also welcome and encouraged. More joint designs for the other 6
joints will be posted later. The 2x4's will be anchored to the walls.
Keep in mind also that the flat bench top will be laid on top of this
of course.


http://www.realeyz.com/misc/bench_joints.jpg

[img:d2c0ea2d9e]http://www.realeyz.com/misc/cross_joints.jpg[/img:d2c0ea2d9e]

It seems like the best choice is the screwed lap joint. The quad
corner tenon lap joint I realize is a bit silly and not really
practical for this.

thanx for any and all advice!!
- todd

realeyz wrote:
I have identified the 7 different
joints in the illustration and started designing different types of
joints that are possible for the upper post cross joint. I would
like to get feedback on which would be the best from a strength
standpoint.

If you fasten it to the walls, racking won't be an issue and you could
probably get away with just about anything.

Also, 4x4 is vast overkill for your posts. A 2' vertical section of
standard 2x4 can hold 4500lb in compression.

Chris

"realeyz" wrote in message
. ..
I have referenced all the books I can find and they all showcase the
typical joints for woodworking like lap, biscuit, mortice and tenon,
rabbet, dado, etc etc, but none of them seem to handle joints with
multiple pieces that cross each other like I am dealing with in this
design for my built-in workbench. I have identified the 7 different
joints in the illustration and started designing different types of
joints that are possible for the upper post cross joint. I would
like to get feedback on which would be the best from a strength
standpoint. Of course any other things I may need to consider are
also welcome and encouraged. More joint designs for the other 6
joints will be posted later. The 2x4's will be anchored to the walls.
Keep in mind also that the flat bench top will be laid on top of this
of course.


http://www.realeyz.com/misc/bench_joints.jpg

[img:d2c0ea2d9e]http://www.realeyz.com/misc/cross_joints.jpg[/img:d2c0ea2d9e]

It seems like the best choice is the screwed lap joint. The quad
corner tenon lap joint I realize is a bit silly and not really
practical for this.

thanx for any and all advice!!
- todd

Todd,

You asked for advice and ideas before about this and none of those that you
indicated would be incorporated are reflected in the drawing you're showing.
Unless you'll be throwing engine blocks up on the bench, do away with the
4x4's and use 2x4's. Change the drawing then come back. Simple lap joints
(glued, doweled or screwed) will suffice for most joints here. If this was
a free-standing workbench subject to racking forces and heavy loads then I
would use 4x4 legs (actully laminated 2x4's to make 3x3-1/2"). You have
over-engineered this and making it way to expensive for what you need.

Bob S.

"Bob S" wrote in message
...

"realeyz" wrote in message
. ..
I have referenced all the books I can find and they all showcase the
typical joints for woodworking like lap, biscuit, mortice and tenon,
rabbet, dado, etc etc, but none of them seem to handle joints with
multiple pieces that cross each other like I am dealing with in this
design for my built-in workbench. I have identified the 7 different
joints in the illustration and started designing different types of
joints that are possible for the upper post cross joint. I would
like to get feedback on which would be the best from a strength
standpoint. Of course any other things I may need to consider are
also welcome and encouraged. More joint designs for the other 6
joints will be posted later. The 2x4's will be anchored to the walls.
Keep in mind also that the flat bench top will be laid on top of this
of course.


http://www.realeyz.com/misc/bench_joints.jpg

[img:d2c0ea2d9e]http://www.realeyz.com/misc/cross_joints.jpg[/img:d2c0ea2d9e]

It seems like the best choice is the screwed lap joint. The quad
corner tenon lap joint I realize is a bit silly and not really
practical for this.

thanx for any and all advice!!
- todd

Todd,

You asked for advice and ideas before about this and none of those that
you indicated would be incorporated are reflected in the drawing you're
showing. Unless you'll be throwing engine blocks up on the bench, do away
with the 4x4's and use 2x4's. Change the drawing then come back. Simple
lap joints (glued, doweled or screwed) will suffice for most joints here.
If this was a free-standing workbench subject to racking forces and heavy
loads then I would use 4x4 legs (actully laminated 2x4's to make
3x3-1/2"). You have over-engineered this and making it way to expensive
for what you need.

Bob S.


I'll agree with Bob. I recently made a movable table for my old table saw,
and I used nothing but 2x4s and lap joints. I can sit on the table anywhere
without seeing deflections. I did use screws "till the glue dries". The
table saw weighs about 250 pounds.
Jim

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:02:14 GMT, lid (realeyz) wrote:

none of them seem to handle joints with
multiple pieces that cross each other like I am dealing with in this
design for my built-in workbench.

So change the design. You don't need those joints, they're a pain to
make and they're less strong than staggered joints. Everything you need
for a workbench you can do with M&Ts, either wedging them, pegging them,
or (if you want to be posh) half-dovetailing them and using a wedge to
lock the other half of the dovetail.
http://www.jarkman.co.uk/catalog/furnitur/bench.htm

If you really must do 3 or 5 way joints, look at Japanese techniques, as
described in Nakahara's "Complete Japanese Joinery"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0881791210/codesmiths-20

"realeyz" wrote in message
. ..
I have referenced all the books I can find and they all showcase the
typical joints for woodworking like lap, biscuit, mortice and tenon,
rabbet, dado, etc etc, but none of them seem to handle joints with
multiple pieces that cross each other like I am dealing with in this
design for my built-in workbench. I have identified the 7 different
joints in the illustration and started designing different types of
joints that are possible for the upper post cross joint. I would
like to get feedback on which would be the best from a strength
standpoint. Of course any other things I may need to consider are
also welcome and encouraged. More joint designs for the other 6
joints will be posted later. The 2x4's will be anchored to the walls.
Keep in mind also that the flat bench top will be laid on top of this
of course.


http://www.realeyz.com/misc/bench_joints.jpg

[img:d2c0ea2d9e]http://www.realeyz.com/misc/cross_joints.jpg[/img:d2c0ea2d9e]

It seems like the best choice is the screwed lap joint. The quad
corner tenon lap joint I realize is a bit silly and not really
practical for this.

thanx for any and all advice!!
- todd

I see others have boo-hooed the 4x4 but I like them for legs. They add mass
and reduce bounce when I hammer something stubborn. As for the joints, a
simple half lap that I epoxyed then screwed have help up for twenty years
without any problems or loosening.

Dave




Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

If your interested in the quick and dirty, go to the hardware store and look
at the selection of Simpson products. They are a common brand name for
joist hangars, but they also manufacture many other metal connectors to join
things together. --dave



"realeyz" wrote in message
. ..
I have referenced all the books I can find and they all showcase the
typical joints for woodworking like lap, biscuit, mortice and tenon,
rabbet, dado, etc etc, but none of them seem to handle joints with
multiple pieces that cross each other like I am dealing with in this
design for my built-in workbench. I have identified the 7 different
joints in the illustration and started designing different types of
joints that are possible for the upper post cross joint. I would
like to get feedback on which would be the best from a strength
standpoint. Of course any other things I may need to consider are
also welcome and encouraged. More joint designs for the other 6
joints will be posted later. The 2x4's will be anchored to the walls.
Keep in mind also that the flat bench top will be laid on top of this
of course.


http://www.realeyz.com/misc/bench_joints.jpg

[img:d2c0ea2d9e]http://www.realeyz.com/misc/cross_joints.jpg[/img:d2c0ea2d9e]

It seems like the best choice is the screwed lap joint. The quad
corner tenon lap joint I realize is a bit silly and not really
practical for this.

thanx for any and all advice!!
- todd

Thanx for the feedback...here are some more samples from some of the
suggestions I have recieved here and elsewhe

http://www.realeyz.com/misc/cross_joints2.jpg

I am leaning towards the bolted lap joint as this seems the simplest
and strongest plus I can hide the metal brackets behind so they arent
seen. The 4 way mortice and tenon is too complicated and time
consuming I think.

Concerning using glue for joints where bolt hardware wont be used. I
have never used wood glues before so I am not familiar with just how
strong they are. I assume they must be very strong since laminated
tops are so strong. Any advice on this is most appreciated.

I realize the entire workbench is over-engineered. Call me
anal...call me a sadist... I love over-engineered stuff. When you
think about it, its not really over-engineered at all...its just
built to last where most things arent.

Thanx again for all the feedback and keep it coming!

Happy Holidays to everyone - todd

Here are some of the lower corner joint designs:

http://www.realeyz.com/misc/lower_corner_joints.jpg

I think the inner miter dado joint looks the easiest and strongest. I
also like the way it looks put together with two different toned
woods.
What do you guys think?

-todd

realeyz wrote:

I think the inner miter dado joint looks the easiest and strongest. I
also like the way it looks put together with two different toned
woods.
What do you guys think?

Any of them will do the job, given that you don't need to worry about
racking stresses.

In this application glued and screwed butt joints would probably be
sufficient.

Chris

Todd,
You indicate elsewhere that you have very little woodworking
experience. You'll find these joints much more difficult to make with
actual wood than they are with computer programs. You will quickly
ruin some of your wood and be going back for more if you attempt such
complicated joints without more experience under your belt. All of us
make mistakes, beginners make more of them. I don't care how smart you
are, there are skills involved here you simply haven't learned yet. I
assure you that wood glue is plenty strong to hold your bench together
with only the simplest joints and a few screws.

DonkeyHody
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor
judgement."

DonkeyHody wrote:
Todd,
You indicate elsewhere that you have very little woodworking
experience. You'll find these joints much more difficult to make with
actual wood than they are with computer programs. You will quickly
ruin some of your wood and be going back for more if you attempt such
complicated joints without more experience under your belt. All of us
make mistakes, beginners make more of them. I don't care how smart you
are, there are skills involved here you simply haven't learned yet. I
assure you that wood glue is plenty strong to hold your bench together
with only the simplest joints and a few screws.


Wouldn't it be better for him to learn this constructing something for the shop
than something for the living room? Let him try. This is exactly where he
should become adventuresome.

Pine is a hell of a lot cheaper than cherry.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

Wouldn't it be better for him to learn this constructing something for the shop
than something for the living room? Let him try. This is exactly where he
should become adventuresome.

Pine is a hell of a lot cheaper than cherry.

Your point is well taken. I'd just like to see him make some simple
half-lap joints before he starts trying to get fancy. I see great
potential for him to become frustrated and quit if he bites off more
than he can chew.

Reminds me of the time we took the neighbor's 13 year old kid skiing.
He had a snowboarding video game and was very good at it. He thought
he would be doing jumps and flips right away. That's about all you see
people doing on TV, right? By the end of the first day, he was totally
demoralized and wouldn't try it again.

DonkeyHody
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor
judgement."

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message

Reminds me of the time we took the neighbor's 13 year old kid skiing.
He had a snowboarding video game and was very good at it. He thought
he would be doing jumps and flips right away. That's about all you see
people doing on TV, right? By the end of the first day, he was totally
demoralized and wouldn't try it again.

Sometimes it is more tragic than that.

I was raised on a horse farm and, at one time in my "yoot", spent a good
part of my time astride, from steer roping in rodeos, to riding
hunter/jumpers on the SW show circuit, and even got into training for a
period after getting out of the service.

One of my mentors was an old man who had owned a thriving stables since the
turn of the century, when horses were still a major means of transportation
in this part of the world. It is safe to say that Mr. Vaughn Parrish died
knowing more about horses than most self-styled horseman today will every
know, and was a damn good example of what constitutes a "horseman", by any
definition.

So I had to initially laugh last year when a friend told me about this
"expert" horse trainer she was letting "train" her show horses ... a 14 year
old girl. This girl "had all the horse movies and training videos" and
"really knew horses" ... until she put herself, and a horse, in a position
that no remotely knowledgeable horseman would have considered.

As a result the young lady is now a quadriplegic, from an unnecessary
accident caused by poor judgment and ignorance.

"Good judgement comes from experience.

.... and the fact that this friend is an MD just further illustrates the
state of a culture that hasn't even considered that little bit of wisdom.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/13/05

Thanx guys - here is the assembly with the mortise and tenon
construction:

http://www.realeyz.com/misc/mt_bench.jpg

I know I have no experience with with this kind of wood joinery - I
plan to practice on old wood before really using any bought material
for the bench. I may use big 1 1/2 dowels for the tenon instead of
trying to cut square mortises - those look tough. This way I can
just cut the holes with a big forstner bit. In any event I will
practice the methods before diving in. If it turns out to be too
tough I will just revert back to using doubled up 2x4's

Thanx for all the ideas and encouragement - it is much appreciated!!

- todd

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 04:02:15 GMT, lid (realeyz) wrote:

Thanx guys - here is the assembly with the mortise and tenon
construction:

http://www.realeyz.com/misc/mt_bench.jpg

Throw away the CAD, pick up a pencil and do some reading first. That
design is beautifully rendered and very poor mechanically. Look at any
other similar piece of framing and study the joinery used and the
proportions of the tenons. As a quick clue, mortices shoudl be longer
than their width - square is bad, and tenons should have two shoulders,
not four.

I suggest reading "The Workbench Book" for starters, and probably
something (Tage Frid?) on how to design good proportions for joints.

OK I have had a lot of feedback about the mortise and tenon being
wrong in many different ways so I have adjusted and made some
treatments for the different joints. If you would be so kind as to
let me know what you think it would be most appreciated.

http://www.realeyz.com/misc/mt_joints.jpg

Thanx again - all your comments are mucho appreciated!

- todd

realeyz wrote:
: OK I have had a lot of feedback about the mortise and tenon being
: wrong in many different ways so I have adjusted and made some
: treatments for the different joints. If you would be so kind as to
: let me know what you think it would be most appreciated.

: http://www.realeyz.com/misc/mt_joints.jpg



You seem to have all logical options covered. Why not rely on
hundreds of years of past experience? Get Landis' the Workbench Book, and
see what's worked in the past (hint: it's not very complicated).

-- Andy Barss

On 14 Dec 2005 09:15:56 -0800, "DonkeyHody"
wrote:

He had a snowboarding video game and was very good at it. He thought
he would be doing jumps and flips right away.

Reminds me of an early driving lesson I was giving my daughter.
Around the block, and we're approaching the driveway. I wait for her
to slow down, we're getting closer to the driveway. I don't want to
be overbearing, so wait an instant or two more. We're doing about
20-25 as we approach the driveway. "You have to slow down" I say, and
she does - to about 15 for a 90 degree turn. Next thing I'm grabbing
the wheel to keep us from climbing the bank beside the driveway, and
telling her to hit the brakes. After we stop, I told her you can't
turn that fast. Her response: "You can in _Need for Speed_" (video
game). Yeah, darlin' but that's a Ferrari, this is an Aerostar.

(She's gotten better over the past five years.)

Ricky

Thanx guys - here is the assembly with the mortise and tenon
construction:
http://www.realeyz.com/misc/mt_bench.jpg
I know I have no experience with with this kind of wood joinery - I
plan to practice on old wood before really using any bought material
for the bench. I may use big 1 1/2 dowels for the tenon instead of
trying to cut square mortises - those look tough. This way I can
just cut the holes with a big forstner bit. In any event I will
practice the methods before diving in. If it turns out to be too
tough I will just revert back to using doubled up 2x4's
Thanx for all the ideas and encouragement - it is much appreciated!!
- todd



Todd, if you have a drill press and forstner bits, as well as a 1" chisel and
mallet, you can cut mortises.

The forstner bit should be the same size as the mortise will be wide, cut a row
with each plunge close together, like 1/3 the size of the bit, wood up against a
fence and clamped down on the table. Then it's chisel time, you can figure out
the rest of that.

If you have a back saw, 12" to 14" or 16", you can cut tenons too. If it's a more
basic quality of saw like a Sears, just cut on the inside of your marking lines,
then chisel down to size, cleanly... even with a goddamn Sears chisel!

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/produ...=00 936166000
(just to see one, if you don't know)

Hand experience, as much as possible, is a great way to learn woodworking, this
is what I am doing, and using stationary tools like table saws I keep to a minimum.

....hope this helps,

--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 20:13:40 -0800, "AAvK" wrote:

Todd, if you have a drill press and forstner bits, as well as a 1" chisel and
mallet, you can cut mortises.

But save yourself a lot of cursing and sharpening by making sure any
knots in the 4x4s are not where the mortises go. I learned that one
the hard way..


-Leuf

But save yourself a lot of cursing and sharpening by making sure any
knots in the 4x4s are not where the mortises go. I learned that one
the hard way..
-Leuf


Yeah but as well, doug fir knots are not all that big and not all that hard either,
sometimes loaded with sap. Chipping out a chunk of a knot from the inside side
of a mortise should be the real concern, and unsightly. I would avoid knots in
the tenons as well for the same reason, loss of strength.

--
Alex - "newbie_neander" woodworker
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:27:01 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:02:14 GMT, lid (realeyz) wrote:

none of them seem to handle joints with
multiple pieces that cross each other like I am dealing with in this
design for my built-in workbench.

So change the design. You don't need those joints, they're a pain to
make and they're less strong than staggered joints. Everything you need
for a workbench you can do with M&Ts, either wedging them, pegging them,
or (if you want to be posh) half-dovetailing them and using a wedge to
lock the other half of the dovetail.
http://www.jarkman.co.uk/catalog/furnitur/bench.htm

I can't see how this joint works? Shouldn't the wedge come from the
other side?

--------------------
Steve Jensen
Abbotsford B.C.
chopping out the mortise.
BBS'ing since 1982 at 300 bps.
Surfing along at 19200 bps since 95.
WW'ing since 1985
LV Cust #4114

Nothing catchy to say, well maybe.....
WAKE UP - There are no GODs you fools!

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 02:29:52 -0800, Scorp wrote:

or (if you want to be posh) half-dovetailing them and using a wedge to
lock the other half of the dovetail.
http://www.jarkman.co.uk/catalog/furnitur/bench.htm

I can't see how this joint works?

Sorry, it's a friend's site and I posted the link because it's what I
had, not the best illustration of the joint.

Shouldn't the wedge come from the other side?

In lots of wedged M&T joints you have to insert the wedge from the
outside end of the tenoned member, but for these you do it from the
inside. If your primary goal is to make a "box frame" where the wedges
are inserted from "inside", then the wedged half dovetail is a useful
choice.

The basic joint begins with a M&T Then the lower edge is cut at an
angle (both parts) to make half of a dovetail. This dovetail has a
"steep" angle on it, I think we used 1:6 for these hardwood joints.

Above the tenon the mortice upper face is also slanted at an angle, but
_not_ the tenon. This angle is shallow compared to the other
(important!), maybe 1:8 or 1:10 for this bench. It's also cut in the
"opposite" way to how you might expect a dovetail. Matching locking
wedges are cut at this same angle. There's wood removed right through
the depth of the mortice so that the locking wedge protrudes through
both sides, and also so that there's enough spare height with the wedges
out to allow the joint to be assembled.

The joint now fits together quite loosely as the tenon is free to move
up and down. Don't assemble it by titing the tenoned member, or you'll
find that you can assemble one, but not two - make those wedges thick
enough to give space. Once assembled, drive in the wedges to lock it.
As always, drive wedges with a light hammer, not a maller (you can hear
when they bottom out more easily)

The racking strength of the joint depends crucialy on having a different
wedge angle for the "dovetail" and for the wedge. So long as the wedge
is much more shallow, then it's possible to get a good lock on the
dovetail part.

This is a fairly common joint in Japanese joinery as the ****age-kama
and has aspects to recommend it for wider use. If you can cut the angled
mortices (a wedge on the morticer table is all you need) then it's an
easy joint.

It's not in Kiyosi Seike, it is illustrated in Graubner (not a great
drawing though) and it's described in Sato & Nakahara . All three of
these books are worth having (Graubner is OOP and S/H prices are insane
- Nakahara is a better book anyway)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0834815168/codesmiths-20

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0881791210/codesmiths-20

In Japanese work (and Japanese timber) the angle for the "dovetail" part
is typically steep and the other side of the mortice is cut square, with
a very shallow peg (typical of Japanese timber-framing work). This is a
good joint for house carpentry, but it doesn't have the resistance
against moving under racking stresses that it does if you cut with two
angles and a less steep dovetail.

It's also cut in Japan as a blind mortice (hard work to cut) or with the
dovetail only cut on half the tenon's length.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:24:31 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:


Shouldn't the wedge come from the other side?


In lots of wedged M&T joints you have to insert the wedge from the
outside end of the tenoned member, but for these you do it from the
inside. If your primary goal is to make a "box frame" where the wedges
are inserted from "inside", then the wedged half dovetail is a useful
choice.

The basic joint begins with a M&T Then the lower edge is cut at an
angle (both parts) to make half of a dovetail. This dovetail has a
"steep" angle on it, I think we used 1:6 for these hardwood joints.

Above the tenon the mortice upper face is also slanted at an angle, but
_not_ the tenon. This angle is shallow compared to the other
(important!), maybe 1:8 or 1:10 for this bench.

The thought of a different wedge angle came to me this morning...since
the "weakness" I saw in this joint seemed to be the wedge and tenon
coming out at the same angle. The wedge angle makes more sense.

I can see this joint being a very good choice for something to be
knocked down.

The racking strength of the joint depends crucialy on having a different
wedge angle for the "dovetail" and for the wedge. So long as the wedge
is much more shallow, then it's possible to get a good lock on the
dovetail part.

Thanks for the excellent answer.

--------------------
Steve Jensen
Abbotsford B.C.
chopping out the mortise.
BBS'ing since 1982 at 300 bps.
Surfing along at 19200 bps since 95.
WW'ing since 1985
LV Cust #4114

Nothing catchy to say, well maybe.....
WAKE UP - There are no GODs you fools!

Andy Dingley wrote:

Sorry, it's a friend's site and I posted the link because it's what I
had, not the best illustration of the joint.

I notice that the joints and drawers took a long time to make. How long did
it take to get the bench 'covered in crap'? )

BTW, interesting joint and links.