I just bought new Delta Unisaw model 36-L51X with the 5 hp motor. What
amp breaker is required 30 or 40. Also I am planning basement shop and
possible sub panel, I need breaker size for that also. Shop will
include 2hp jointer, planer, band saw, miter saw, drill press and 1
1/2hp dust collection.

Thanks all,

Dave

Let's see if I have this right- you're going to take the word of
unknown, unseen strangers to ensure your electrical safety, with
absolutely no recourse in case of error. Oh, and you'd like to know
what size breaker to use in the feed to a subpanel with some assemblage
of loads, not to mention that the line voltage to the t/s is unspec.

May I suggest you ask the dealer's recommendation for your situation,
and consider at least having a licensed electrician inspect your work?
For the hodge-podge, you need to find the draw for each, total up the
draw for the worst possible case, and provide breaker and wiring
"headroom" for safety and startup-draws. (Breakers don't behave like
motor-starter overloads, which accomodate startup current draw.)

Of course, all the wiring will be sized accordingly, no? IOW, you
really don't want to ruin your party with electrical probs, nor probs
with insurance co. for fire and water damage.

J

Amen...if you already have or are willing to acquire the knowledge to do the
work according to NEC (National Electrical Code) standards, you will be
fine, but it should still be inspected by a qualified inspector just to
"cover yourself" with whatever company carries your home insurance policy.
Some municipalities require that all work in homes be done only by licensed
electricians. You will have to check your local city, town, village, etc.
regulations.

--Jim

wrote in message
oups.com...
Let's see if I have this right- you're going to take the word of
unknown, unseen strangers to ensure your electrical safety, with
absolutely no recourse in case of error. Oh, and you'd like to know
what size breaker to use in the feed to a subpanel with some assemblage
of loads, not to mention that the line voltage to the t/s is unspec.

May I suggest you ask the dealer's recommendation for your situation,
and consider at least having a licensed electrician inspect your work?
For the hodge-podge, you need to find the draw for each, total up the
draw for the worst possible case, and provide breaker and wiring
"headroom" for safety and startup-draws. (Breakers don't behave like
motor-starter overloads, which accomodate startup current draw.)

Of course, all the wiring will be sized accordingly, no? IOW, you
really don't want to ruin your party with electrical probs, nor probs
with insurance co. for fire and water damage.

J

KENDALL SEYBERT wrote:
Amen...if you already have or are willing to acquire the knowledge to do the
work according to NEC (National Electrical Code) standards, you will be
fine, but it should still be inspected by a qualified inspector just to
"cover yourself" with whatever company carries your home insurance policy.

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of a homeowner's insurance claim
that was denied because the loss was caused by someone's inept wiring
practices?

If so, please provide details, including the name of the insurance company.

Thanks.

-jav

"Javier Henderson" wrote in message
...
KENDALL SEYBERT wrote:
Amen...if you already have or are willing to acquire the knowledge to do
the
work according to NEC (National Electrical Code) standards, you will be
fine, but it should still be inspected by a qualified inspector just to
"cover yourself" with whatever company carries your home insurance
policy.

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of a homeowner's insurance claim
that was denied because the loss was caused by someone's inept wiring
practices?

If so, please provide details, including the name of the insurance
company.


Thank you. I have posted a like question a couple of times in the past.
There's a lot of mis-information about insurance companies, claims, etc.
that tends to float around.

--

-Mike-

"Javier Henderson" wrote in message
...

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of a homeowner's insurance claim
that was denied because the loss was caused by someone's inept wiring
practices?

If so, please provide details, including the name of the insurance
company.



I can assure that when I changed to a new insurance company last year that
the agent came out to take pictures of the 24 year old house and
specifically asked if any wiring had been added or changed. Farm Bureau is
the insurance company. The agent is officed in Stafford, Texas, south west
side of Houston.

That address and telephone number is

345 Dulles Ave
Suite E
Stafford, TX 77477
(281) 403-2562

"Leon" wrote in message
. net...

"Javier Henderson" wrote in message
...

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of a homeowner's insurance claim
that was denied because the loss was caused by someone's inept wiring
practices?

If so, please provide details, including the name of the insurance
company.



I can assure that when I changed to a new insurance company last year that
the agent came out to take pictures of the 24 year old house and
specifically asked if any wiring had been added or changed. Farm Bureau
is
the insurance company. The agent is officed in Stafford, Texas, south
west
side of Houston.

That address and telephone number is

345 Dulles Ave
Suite E
Stafford, TX 77477
(281) 403-2562



Can't contest that Leon, because if you say it happened, then it did. I've
never had that experience - for what ever that's worth. What I have been
part of though - and the direction that I believe this thread was heading
with Javier asked his question, is a lot of fire investigations. Lots of
faulty wiring findings. Never saw a single claim denied because of it.

--

-Mike-

"Leon" wrote in message
I can assure that when I changed to a new insurance company last year that
the agent came out to take pictures of the 24 year old house and
specifically asked if any wiring had been added or changed. Farm Bureau
is the insurance company. The agent is officed in Stafford, Texas, south
west side of Houston.

40 years of home ownership, a few different agents and insurance companies,
no one has ever asked any questions or every looked at the house. Present
insurer is The Hartford.

Leon wrote:
"Javier Henderson" wrote in message
...

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of a homeowner's insurance claim
that was denied because the loss was caused by someone's inept wiring
practices?

If so, please provide details, including the name of the insurance
company.




I can assure that when I changed to a new insurance company last year that
the agent came out to take pictures of the 24 year old house and
specifically asked if any wiring had been added or changed. Farm Bureau is
the insurance company. The agent is officed in Stafford, Texas, south west
side of Houston.

Which only proves that they are diligent in assessing their risk for
underwriting purposes. They may also ask if you have a swimming pool, a
dog, etc.

How many house fires do you see in the local news reports where the fire
is attributed to "defective wiring." Ever follow up to see if the
claims are paid? They are. In fact, you'll find that even claims
arising out of fires where "suspicious origin" is indicated are paid.

Hell, they pay for those idiots who barbeque in the garage and set the
garage on fire. Stupidity IS a compensable loss.

Peddle the insurance boogeyman elsewhere. It makes no sense to install
wiring that is not up to code and safe but the fact that you do so
without the specific intent to burn down your home or shop doesn't mean
that your insurance company will not indemnify your loss.

Go find some cases where folks were denied coverage for their loss and
bring it back. Since he's your agent and you had his phone number,
maybe you could call him and ask him for some specifics that he's aware
of. Should be a piece of cake, if it's not b.s.

Thank God! At last a traditional rec.woodworking topic instead of all
that politcal/social commentary.


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 16:30:59 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
(Lawrence Wasserman) quickly quoth:

Thank God! At last a traditional rec.woodworking topic instead of all
that politcal/social commentary.

Well, with your response, we're back to political/social commentary.
I believe that's called "irony."


--
...the last thing I want is a toilet seat that ****es back at me...
--Wrecker Greg G on the www.CleanButt.com system

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:13:54 -0500, David
wrote:

I just bought new Delta Unisaw model 36-L51X with the 5 hp motor. What
amp breaker is required 30 or 40.

Manual says 40


Also I am planning basement shop and
possible sub panel, I need breaker size for that also. Shop will
include 2hp jointer, planer, band saw, miter saw, drill press and 1
1/2hp dust collection.

Not an electrician, but I think it will depend on your use pattern
(silmutaneous use and duty cycle). You need to lay it out, determine
amp draw by each machine, where they will be located, how many you
want on each circuit. The number of circuits and the protection
required for each individual circuit will size your subpanel and your
sub panel main breaker. room for expansion a good idea. I did not,
regretted it later.

if you are not comfortable doing the above, suggest strongly you hire
an electrician. required some areas.

Thanks all,

Dave

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:23:53 -0600, Frank Boettcher
wrote:

Thanks for the input. I have 200 amp service to home and thinking of
making subpanel 80 amps. Is that about right.

Until last week, my shop's sole electric supply consisted of two 12/2 wires
ran 80 ft. from the main. One circuit for lighting and one for all the
machines. As I've acquired a number of new power hungry machines this last
year, I decided to upgrade the electric service as well. I was only going
to run 60 amp, but ended up with 100 amp. The price difference for the wire
(6awg vs. 2awg both direct burial) was $.20 more per foot so the 100 amp
(2awg) service cost me about $16 more for an 80 ft. run. Worth the money to
go with 100 amp if you are doing an upgrade. Wire total was just over $100.
The sub panel came from Lowe's. It is a 100 amp. "workshop panel" and came
with the main breaker and 4 circuit breakers for $54. I did my own
wiring, but if you are unfamiliar or uncomfortable working with electricity,
please call an electrician. good luck --dave




"jetman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:23:53 -0600, Frank Boettcher
wrote:

Thanks for the input. I have 200 amp service to home and thinking of
making subpanel 80 amps. Is that about right.

In article , David wrote:
I just bought new Delta Unisaw model 36-L51X with the 5 hp motor. What
amp breaker is required 30 or 40.

Beats me. What does the owner's manual say?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

David,
I cut and pasted from an old post to save typing. I've had no problems
with my setup.

I just finished wrestling with that very issue. I became the
unexpected owner of a 5 HP Single Phase Unisaw and had to figure out
how to wire it. In a phone call to Delta's technical people, they
told me:
1. Delta's 5 HP motor draws 100 Amps for about 1.5 seconds at
startup.
2. A 30 Amp "slow trip" breaker will hold it, but they are more
expensive and hard to find. (Home Depot never heard of 'em.)
3. A 40 Amp breaker will hold it fine, and that is what Delta
recommends.

I sought advice from a couple of Electrical Engineers at work. They
assured me that:
1. The NEC allows a 40 Amp breaker on #10 wire IF the wire is only
feeding an electric motor that is hard-wired, AND there are no other
loads on the circuit.
2. It's not unsafe to run such a setup, because the motor's internal
overload switch will protect the motor itself. The only other
catastrophe would be a direct short, and the #10 wire will carry
enough amps to trip the 40 Amp breaker before the wire overheats.

The information presented above is hearsay. I am not a licensed
electrician, nor an electrical engineer. Check local codes before
installation. Void where prohibited. Your mileage may vary. Free
advice is worth what you pay for it.

My earlier post drew lots of flames from people who claimed to know the
code and that it can't possibly allow a 40 amp breaker on a #10 wire.
I looked it up and quoted the NEC extensively in a later post if you
want to google search for donkeyhody and unisaw. BUT, if you have an
inspector to satisfy, it may not be worth the trouble since it's an
obscure exception. HE may not be aware of the exception.

#8 wire is not that much more expensive, but I already had the #10
run, so it was worth checking for my application.

DonkeyHody
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
one anymore." - Mark Twain

As far as protection for the motor itself. There's a whale of a
difference in what's reasonable for a motor running continuously, at
near its rated capacity, unattended and one that's loaded (usually
briefly) by someone standing right there. If I ever hear of anyone
manually feeding a Unisaw and burning out a 5HP motor with or without
built in overload protection, I'll eat my words without ketchup or mustard.

bob g.

DonkeyHody wrote:

David,
I cut and pasted from an old post to save typing. I've had no problems
with my setup.

I just finished wrestling with that very issue. I became the
unexpected owner of a 5 HP Single Phase Unisaw and had to figure out
how to wire it. In a phone call to Delta's technical people, they
told me:
1. Delta's 5 HP motor draws 100 Amps for about 1.5 seconds at
startup.
2. A 30 Amp "slow trip" breaker will hold it, but they are more
expensive and hard to find. (Home Depot never heard of 'em.)
3. A 40 Amp breaker will hold it fine, and that is what Delta
recommends.

I sought advice from a couple of Electrical Engineers at work. They
assured me that:
1. The NEC allows a 40 Amp breaker on #10 wire IF the wire is only
feeding an electric motor that is hard-wired, AND there are no other
loads on the circuit.
2. It's not unsafe to run such a setup, because the motor's internal
overload switch will protect the motor itself. The only other
catastrophe would be a direct short, and the #10 wire will carry
enough amps to trip the 40 Amp breaker before the wire overheats.

The information presented above is hearsay. I am not a licensed
electrician, nor an electrical engineer. Check local codes before
installation. Void where prohibited. Your mileage may vary. Free
advice is worth what you pay for it.

My earlier post drew lots of flames from people who claimed to know the
code and that it can't possibly allow a 40 amp breaker on a #10 wire.
I looked it up and quoted the NEC extensively in a later post if you
want to google search for donkeyhody and unisaw. BUT, if you have an
inspector to satisfy, it may not be worth the trouble since it's an
obscure exception. HE may not be aware of the exception.

#8 wire is not that much more expensive, but I already had the #10
run, so it was worth checking for my application.

DonkeyHody
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
one anymore." - Mark Twain

In article . com, "DonkeyHody" wrote:

I sought advice from a couple of Electrical Engineers at work. They
assured me that:
1. The NEC allows a 40 Amp breaker on #10 wire IF the wire is only
feeding an electric motor that is hard-wired, AND there are no other
loads on the circuit.

Note that this does NOT apply in the case being discussed, because the motor
is cord-and-plug connected, not hard-wired -- and thus it IS a Code violation.

2. It's not unsafe to run such a setup, because the motor's internal
overload switch will protect the motor itself. The only other
catastrophe would be a direct short, and the #10 wire will carry
enough amps to trip the 40 Amp breaker before the wire overheats.

A possibly dangerous assumption. I'm sure the writers of the NEC must have had
a reason for requiring 30A overcurrent protection on #10 wire.

The information presented above is hearsay. I am not a licensed
electrician, nor an electrical engineer. Check local codes before
installation. Void where prohibited. Your mileage may vary. Free
advice is worth what you pay for it.

My earlier post drew lots of flames from people who claimed to know the
code and that it can't possibly allow a 40 amp breaker on a #10 wire.
I looked it up and quoted the NEC extensively in a later post if you
want to google search for donkeyhody and unisaw. BUT, if you have an
inspector to satisfy, it may not be worth the trouble since it's an
obscure exception. HE may not be aware of the exception.

As noted above, the exception does not apply to this situation.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
"DonkeyHody" wrote:

I sought advice from a couple of Electrical Engineers at work. They
assured me that:
1. The NEC allows a 40 Amp breaker on #10 wire IF the wire is only
feeding an electric motor that is hard-wired, AND there are no other
loads on the circuit.

Note that this does NOT apply in the case being discussed, because the
motor
is cord-and-plug connected, not hard-wired -- and thus it IS a Code
violation.

2. It's not unsafe to run such a setup, because the motor's internal
overload switch will protect the motor itself. The only other
catastrophe would be a direct short, and the #10 wire will carry
enough amps to trip the 40 Amp breaker before the wire overheats.

A possibly dangerous assumption. I'm sure the writers of the NEC must have
had
a reason for requiring 30A overcurrent protection on #10 wire.

Probably a good reason why they allow a 40A breaker on a dedicated circuit
also. Both rules come from the same organization so I don't see how you can
proclaim one of them to be "a possibly dangerous assumption".


The information presented above is hearsay. I am not a licensed
electrician, nor an electrical engineer. Check local codes before
installation. Void where prohibited. Your mileage may vary. Free
advice is worth what you pay for it.

My earlier post drew lots of flames from people who claimed to know the
code and that it can't possibly allow a 40 amp breaker on a #10 wire.
I looked it up and quoted the NEC extensively in a later post if you
want to google search for donkeyhody and unisaw. BUT, if you have an
inspector to satisfy, it may not be worth the trouble since it's an
obscure exception. HE may not be aware of the exception.

As noted above, the exception does not apply to this situation.


With the obvious exception that now aware of what code says about a
hardwired motor, the OP just may want to consider that as an option. Can't
see where it hurt to have made him aware of that. At least Donkeyhody made
it plainly clear that what he posted was an alternate consideration and that
the OP should verify it on his own.

--

-Mike-

Doug Miller wrote:


Note that this does NOT apply in the case being discussed, because the motor
is cord-and-plug connected, not hard-wired -- and thus it IS a Code violation.

Uh, Sorry Doug. While the 3 HP Unisaw comes with a plug and cord, the
5 HP does NOT. Delta said they left off the cord because they expect
the 5 HP to be hard wired. He always had the option of taking the cord
off and hard wiring the saw in any case.


A possibly dangerous assumption. I'm sure the writers of the NEC must have had
a reason for requiring 30A overcurrent protection on #10 wire.

I won't try to change your opinion about the merits of using a 40 amp
breaker on #10 wire. Just check out the NEC, Section 430, Part D -
Motor Banch-Circuit Short-Circuit and Ground-Fault Protection.
Paragraph 430-52. The paragraph is specifically written to allow
larger breakers for motors that draw high amps at startup.

All I ask is that you look it up before you shoot it down.

DonkeyHody
"Even an old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then."

In article .com, "DonkeyHody" wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:


Note that this does NOT apply in the case being discussed, because the motor
is cord-and-plug connected, not hard-wired -- and thus it IS a Code
violation.

Uh, Sorry Doug. While the 3 HP Unisaw comes with a plug and cord, the
5 HP does NOT. Delta said they left off the cord because they expect
the 5 HP to be hard wired. He always had the option of taking the cord
off and hard wiring the saw in any case.

Aaah. I was unaware of that. In that case... it's Code-compliant.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

David wrote:
I just bought new Delta Unisaw model 36-L51X with the 5 hp motor. What
amp breaker is required 30 or 40.

2P-40A

Also I am planning basement shop and
possible sub panel, I need breaker size for that also. Shop will
include 2hp jointer, planer, band saw, miter saw, drill press and 1
1/2hp dust collection.

Get a 12/24, 125 MLO panel, then install a 2P-60A main.

Basic sub panel for this application.

Lew

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 02:57:56 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

David wrote:
I just bought new Delta Unisaw model 36-L51X with the 5 hp motor. What
amp breaker is required 30 or 40.

2P-40A

Also I am planning basement shop and
possible sub panel, I need breaker size for that also. Shop will
include 2hp jointer, planer, band saw, miter saw, drill press and 1
1/2hp dust collection.

Get a 12/24, 125 MLO panel, then install a 2P-60A main.

Basic sub panel for this application.

Lew
Thanks for the input everyone. At least I have a starting point. I
think I will talk to the inspector first to see how he wants things
done. I am sure the right way to do it is to get the permits for the
job anyway..

"jetman" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the input everyone. At least I have a starting point. I
think I will talk to the inspector first to see how he wants things
done. I am sure the right way to do it is to get the permits for the
job anyway..

Hopefully your municipality/State is a little more time friendly with their
permits than mine is. I opted to do the work myself. To do that, I had to
pass a "test" that covered the NEC and the State Adendums to the NEC.
Unfortunately, they wouldn't give any sort of study guide or info about what
type of questions would be asked. Considering the NEC book is something
like 1000 pages, I figured it might take me a while to deciper it all! If
you failed the test, you had to wait at least a month to take it again.
The other option, and one I highly recommend if you're not electrical saavy,
is to hire it out. It'll cost you a bit (electrician's seems to charge
more than most trades....I guess it's cause they gotta learn 1000 pages of
stuff...haha) but in the end you'll have a permitted install and you didn't
put yourself at risk. I went ahead and did it myself given the complexity
of what I wanted done and I found everytime I opened my NEC manual, there
was something else that applied to me (% fill of boxes, hanger spacing,
etc...). It took a while but I'm convinced it's code compliant and I
actually did pick up quite a few learnings in the process.
Cheers,
cc

jetman wrote:

Thanks for the input everyone. At least I have a starting point. I
think I will talk to the inspector first to see how he wants things
done. I am sure the right way to do it is to get the permits for the
job anyway..

If you didn't recognize the short hand of my last post, let me suggest
something.

Find an electrician who wants to pick up some extra money on the week
end and work out a deal.

You be his grunt.

You dig the trenches, you lay the conduit, you pull the wire, etc, etc,
following the electrican's directions.

He makes all the final connections, pulls the permits, etc.

It's a win/win deal.

Lew


He comes in

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:13:54 -0500, David
wrote:

I just bought new Delta Unisaw model 36-L51X with the 5 hp motor. What
amp breaker is required 30 or 40. Also I am planning basement shop and
possible sub panel, I need breaker size for that also. Shop will
include 2hp jointer, planer, band saw, miter saw, drill press and 1
1/2hp dust collection.

Thanks all,

Dave


Run out and buy yourself a copy of "Wiring a House" by Rex Cauldwell.
It's a great book, easy to understand, with lots of good pictures and
good technique. ISBN is 1-56158-113-5.

Cheers!

Steve

Ditto on Rex's book. It is very clear, well written and has
significant substantive detail explaining how, and more importantly,
why things are done a certain way. I wired two shops from scratch
using it.

Mutt

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:13:54 -0500, David
wrote:

I just bought new Delta Unisaw model 36-L51X with the 5 hp motor. What
amp breaker is required 30 or 40. Also I am planning basement shop and
possible sub panel, I need breaker size for that also. Shop will
include 2hp jointer, planer, band saw, miter saw, drill press and 1
1/2hp dust collection.

Thanks all,

Dave

May I strongly recommend the book "Advanced Home Wiring" from Black
and Decker? It is the only home wiring book I've found so far that has
actuall usefull layout information and which can tell you what gauges
of wire are appropriate for your situation. It doesn't cover quite
everything you need to know, but darn close.

I'm not sure what you are thinking as far as asking about breaker
sizes, but if you have a 30 amp breaker now, and install a 40, but
don't upgrade the wiring, you are risking some pretty hot and melty
wires.

I don't know if the insurance company thing is fact or myth, but then,
would YOU like to be the test case? Get a pro in there and have it
done right. Ask around, you probably know someone who knows someone.

Mark