"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
Without the spike parts I'd be tempted to say they had something to do
with some very cold weather and two different size metallic monkeys. :-)


OK! You've done it now!

I know this trivia (being in the explosives industry), but most don't.

WHAT does it mean to "freeze the balls off a brass monkey"?

This sort of fits into the "What is it? LXXVII" series.

LLoyd

On 9/6/05 7:27 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...

Without the spike parts I'd be tempted to say they had something to do
with some very cold weather and two different size metallic monkeys. :-)



OK! You've done it now!

I know this trivia (being in the explosives industry), but most don't.

WHAT does it mean to "freeze the balls off a brass monkey"?

This sort of fits into the "What is it? LXXVII" series.

LLoyd


OK...here's my take on the expression (but I may be wrong....lol).

I grew up in the UK and at one time it was very common to see 'brass
monkeys' sitting either on the mantelpieces above a fireplace or in the
hearth depending on the size. I have seen them range in size from solid
brass ones at about 1" tall to hollow brass ones about 12" tall and they
are always cast as a single piece.

In every example I saw the monkeys are sitting on their haunches, knees
up, and are either sitting in a straight line or in a slight curve. Each
of the monkeys has his hands in a classic pose and they are named
according to that pose. One will have his hands over his eyes and is
known as 'See No Evil', the second will have his hands over his ears and
is known as 'Hear No Evil' while the third has his hands over his mouth
and is known as 'Speak No Evil'. It is my belief that they date
originally from the pre-Victorian era (possibly of Japanese origin)and
represent a lesson in morality i.e. a person of decent morals will
neither see no evil, hear no evil nor speak no evil.

Now, it is very common in the UK for a well known phrase, expression or
myth to become plagiarized and develop a whole new meaning. It is quite
possible that this has happened in this case. If you consider the
sitting positions of the monkeys their testicles would have been in
contact with, or very close to, the ground (if they were sitting outside
on the ground of course). In very cold weather that would have left them
frozen (possibly to the ground)and if the monkeys were to stand up they
could have left their testicles behind. Hence the phrase 'Cold enough to
freeze the balls off a brass monkey'.

Some examples of the monkeys can be found in the links below (some of
which also point to a Japanese origin).

http://www.aogiftshop.com/images/31164.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/bs4ey
www.oldcopper.org/three_wise_monkeys.htm

--
Larry Green

"Larry Green" wrote in message
...

I know this trivia (being in the explosives industry), but most don't.

WHAT does it mean to "freeze the balls off a brass monkey"?

OK...here's my take on the expression (but I may be wrong....lol).

I grew up in the UK and at one time it was very common to see 'brass
monkeys' sitting either on the mantelpieces above a fireplace or in the
hearth depending on the size. I have seen them range in size from solid
brass ones at about 1" tall to hollow brass ones about 12" tall and they
are always cast as a single piece.

Nope. But it does have something to do with balls. G
LS

Lloyd Sponenburgh writes:
I know this trivia ... but most don't.

That's what you think.

WHAT does it mean to "freeze the balls off a brass monkey"?

The answer is that if this phrase ever referred to anything specific,
it's no longer known for sure.

Larry Green answers:
I grew up in the UK and at one time it was very common to see 'brass
monkeys' sitting either on the mantelpieces above a fireplace or in the
hearth ... 'See No Evil' ... 'Hear No Evil' ... and ... 'Speak No Evil'.
In very cold weather ... if the monkeys were to stand up they could
have left their testicles behind.

This is as good an explanation as any -- simple hyperbole.

Lloyd now comments:
Nope. But it does have something to do with balls. G

Lloyd needs to read these references:

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bra1.htm
http://www.snopes.com/language/stories/brass.htm
--
Mark Brader | "I do not want to give the impression I spend all
Toronto | my time on the Internet, but in the right hands
| it is a wondrous tool, and in the wrong hands
| it is an even better one." -- Cecil Adams

My text in this article is in the public domain.

"Mark Brader" wrote in message
...
Lloyd Sponenburgh writes:
I know this trivia ... but most don't.

That's what you think.

WHAT does it mean to "freeze the balls off a brass monkey"?

The answer is that if this phrase ever referred to anything specific,
it's no longer known for sure.

Nope, it has a quite definite etymology, but a rather exotic one.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in =
message ...
|=20
| "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in =
message=20
| ...
|
| The stacks did become slack during extreme heat. The brass monkey =
became=20
| looser. Only when it tightened excessively did the balls begin to =
roll=20
| off.
|
| Keep in mind that a triangular pyramid stack of spheres is stable to =
+-60=20
| degrees of roll. That's a heavy sea.
|
|=20
| From the rather small niche of black powder historians, the story =
comes this
| way:
|=20
| Anyone who physically handled cannon balls or powder was known as a =
"ball
| monkey" or "powder monkey". The term "powder monkey" is still used =
today.
| "Ball monkey" seems to have been lost.
|=20
| On board most armed ships of the British fleet were triangular brass =
racks -
| low bars of brass forged into an equilateral triangle - mounted to the
| decks, into which to stack cannon balls in the familiar pyramid =
fashion.
| This, to ready the balls for quick access.
|=20
| Although the "brass monkeys" were only an inch or two high, the stacks =
made
| within them were quite stable -- until the temperature dropped very, =
very
| cold. At that point, due to different coefficients of expansion =
between
| brass and iron, the balls came tumbling off their racks.
|=20
| Thus, "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey". Of =
course, the
| vulgar connotations came quite soon after. G
|=20
| LLoyd
|=20
|=20
|=20
|=20
|=20

Further to all the above, take a look at this:

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq107.htm


--=20
PDQ

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" writes:

Nope, it has a quite definite etymology, but a rather exotic one.

The story I've heard is that it refers (in some way I could never
figure) to cannonballs and powder monkeys on Naval ships.

I don't believe this though ... it has a certain aura of
implausibility to it, and just *feels* like a back-formation.
I've certainly never seen convinving evidence of it.

Lloyd Sponenburgh:
I know this trivia ... but most don't.

Mark Brader:
That's what you think.

Lloyd Sponenburgh:
Nope, it has a quite definite etymology, but a rather exotic one.

Go on, then. Prove it.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Gadgetry abounded everywhere, almost all of which
| he could justify." -- Robert Asprin

"Gareth Owen" wrote in message
...
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" writes:

Nope, it has a quite definite etymology, but a rather exotic one.

The story I've heard is that it refers (in some way I could never
figure) to cannonballs and powder monkeys on Naval ships.

From the rather small niche of black powder historians, the story comes this
way:

Anyone who physically handled cannon balls or powder was known as a "ball
monkey" or "powder monkey". The term "powder monkey" is still used today.
"Ball monkey" seems to have been lost.

On board most armed ships of the British fleet were triangular brass racks -
low bars of brass forged into an equilateral triangle - mounted to the
decks, into which to stack cannon balls in the familiar pyramid fashion.
This, to ready the balls for quick access.

Although the "brass monkeys" were only an inch or two high, the stacks made
within them were quite stable -- until the temperature dropped very, very
cold. At that point, due to different coefficients of expansion between
brass and iron, the balls came tumbling off their racks.

Thus, "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey". Of course, the
vulgar connotations came quite soon after. G

LLoyd

Gareth Owen wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" writes:


Nope, it has a quite definite etymology, but a rather exotic one.


The story I've heard is that it refers (in some way I could never
figure) to cannonballs and powder monkeys on Naval ships.

I don't believe this though ... it has a certain aura of
implausibility to it, and just *feels* like a back-formation.
I've certainly never seen convinving evidence of it.

That one is pure bull ****e. It claimed that the racks the pyramids of
cannonballs were stacked on were made of brass and called "brass
monkeys". The story goes that differential thermal contraction in cold
weather would be enough to make the balls fall off them. No mention of
why they wouldn't fall off in hot weather from the motions of a rolling
ship. Hah!

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
That one is pure bull ****e. It claimed that the racks the pyramids of
cannonballs were stacked on were made of brass and called "brass monkeys".
The story goes that differential thermal contraction in cold weather would
be enough to make the balls fall off them. No mention of why they wouldn't
fall off in hot weather from the motions of a rolling

The stacks did become slack during extreme heat. The brass monkey became
looser. Only when it tightened excessively did the balls begin to roll off.

Keep in mind that a triangular pyramid stack of spheres is stable to +-60
degrees of roll. That's a heavy sea.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

The stacks did become slack during extreme heat. The brass monkey became
looser. Only when it tightened excessively did the balls begin to roll
off.

Keep in mind that a triangular pyramid stack of spheres is stable to +-60
degrees of roll. That's a heavy sea.


From the rather small niche of black powder historians, the story comes this
way:

Anyone who physically handled cannon balls or powder was known as a "ball
monkey" or "powder monkey". The term "powder monkey" is still used today.
"Ball monkey" seems to have been lost.

On board most armed ships of the British fleet were triangular brass racks -
low bars of brass forged into an equilateral triangle - mounted to the
decks, into which to stack cannon balls in the familiar pyramid fashion.
This, to ready the balls for quick access.

Although the "brass monkeys" were only an inch or two high, the stacks made
within them were quite stable -- until the temperature dropped very, very
cold. At that point, due to different coefficients of expansion between
brass and iron, the balls came tumbling off their racks.

Thus, "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey". Of course, the
vulgar connotations came quite soon after. G

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" writes:

From the rather small niche of black powder historians, the story
comes this way:

Anyone who physically handled cannon balls or powder was known as a
"ball monkey" or "powder monkey". The term "powder monkey" is still
used today. "Ball monkey" seems to have been lost.

And where is this etymology traced from?
If you can find me a single contemporary citation, I'll believe you,
but until then, I still say "back formation"

Gareth Owen writes:

And where is this etymology traced from?
If you can find me a single contemporary citation, I'll believe you,
but until then, I still say "back formation"

http://www.snopes.com/language/stories/brass.htm

Lloyd Sponenburgh:
On board most armed ships of the British fleet were triangular brass racks -
low bars of brass forged into an equilateral triangle - mounted to the
decks, into which to stack cannon balls in the familiar pyramid fashion.

I said *prove* it. I have already posted cites refuting this answer.
--
Mark Brader, Short words good; sesquipedalian verbalizations undesirable
Toronto, -- after George Orwell

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

The stacks did become slack during extreme heat. The brass monkey became
looser. Only when it tightened excessively did the balls begin to roll
off.

Keep in mind that a triangular pyramid stack of spheres is stable to +-60
degrees of roll. That's a heavy sea.



From the rather small niche of black powder historians, the story comes this
way:

Anyone who physically handled cannon balls or powder was known as a "ball
monkey" or "powder monkey". The term "powder monkey" is still used today.
"Ball monkey" seems to have been lost.

On board most armed ships of the British fleet were triangular brass racks -
low bars of brass forged into an equilateral triangle - mounted to the
decks, into which to stack cannon balls in the familiar pyramid fashion.
This, to ready the balls for quick access.

Although the "brass monkeys" were only an inch or two high, the stacks made
within them were quite stable -- until the temperature dropped very, very
cold. At that point, due to different coefficients of expansion between
brass and iron, the balls came tumbling off their racks.

Thus, "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey". Of course, the
vulgar connotations came quite soon after. G

LLoyd





LLoyd,

The thermal coeficients of expansion a

Brass: 11*10^-6 in/in/deg F

Iron: 7*10^-6 in/in/deg F

The differential is 4*10^-6 in/in/deg F

Thus, a pile of cannonballs and a rack say 4 feet on a side dropping in
temperature from say 70 F to -20 F would have an overall differential
length change of

4 * 12 * 4e-6 * 90 = 0.017"

Now LLoyd, please tell the group what you think that rack must have
looked like, and just how seventeen thou of change in a four foot long
dimension made the balls fall off it.

I have learned that the only person who is a bigger fool than one who is
wrong and can't see it.....is that person who continues to debate him.

So, I hereby declare you correct and resign from any further discussion
of cannonballs and brass racks with you.

Relish your victory, LLoyd.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

....

Thus, a pile of cannonballs and a rack say 4 feet on a side dropping in
temperature from say 70 F to -20 F would have an overall differential
length change of

4 * 12 * 4e-6 * 90 = 0.017"

Now LLoyd, please tell the group what you think that rack must have
looked like, and just how seventeen thou of change in a four foot long
dimension made the balls fall off it.
....

Must have been those tight tolerances...

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
So, I hereby declare you correct and resign from any further discussion of
cannonballs and brass racks with you.

Relish your victory, LLoyd.

I only said that's the story according to black powder historians. I can't
confirm it any other way than you can; either by duplicating the rig, or
theorizing why it would or wouldn't work.

But I never went off on a rant. Most people I know who rave like that are
ill or assholes.
(been takin' your pills?)

LLoyd

On 06/09/2005 3:39 PM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Most people I know who rave like that are ill or assholes.
(been takin' your pills?)

There's pills for bein' an asshole??? Don't tell my boss, he'll be
insisting I get me a prescription.

Jeff Wisnia writes:

Thus, a pile of cannonballs and a rack say 4 feet on a side dropping
in temperature from say 70 F to -20 F would have an overall
differential length change of

4 * 12 * 4e-6 * 90 = 0.017"

How much movement would a pile of "one deep" have? :-)

Cannon shot was not stored in piles, but in "shot garlands" which
were planks with a row of holes.

--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" writes:

I only said that's the story according to black powder historians.

And their names are.....?

HINT: The earliest known reference to "brass monkey" was in 1857, and
it had nothing to do with cannons. The phrase was "freeze the tail of
a brass monkey."

p.s. Mark gave you references to look at, which you ignored.

--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

According to Gareth Owen :
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" writes:

Nope, it has a quite definite etymology, but a rather exotic one.

The story I've heard is that it refers (in some way I could never
figure) to cannonballs and powder monkeys on Naval ships.

I was afraid that this was where this was leading. :-)

I don't believe this though ... it has a certain aura of
implausibility to it, and just *feels* like a back-formation.
I've certainly never seen convinving evidence of it.

If you want support, try this URL:

http://www.snopes.com/language/stories/brass.htm

Snopes makes a career out of investigating urban legends, determining
the truth or falsehood of each one, and has set up an excellent website
covering them. This is the sub-page dealing with this particular one.

One facet which he does not cover is the actual difference in
the thermal expansion rates for brass and cast iron.

First off -- bronze would be more likely at sea than brass, but
I'll list both:

18.50e-6/deg C Brass, ordinary yellow
21.16e-6/deg C Admiralty bronze
11.20e-6/deg C Cast Iron, gray

Now -- let's make some assumptions about the size of the
supposed "brass monkey", and the range of temperatures covered by a ship
from tropics to arctic sailing conditions:

1) Low temperature is perhaps on the order of -50F. Below that,
the sea would tend to freeze over, even short term.

2) High temperature is perhaps on the order of 120F.

For a range of 170F, or 94.44 C. (Let's call it 100 C for
convenience.

3) Let's say that the "brass monkey" was 24" maximum dimension
(and the stack of cannonballs would have to be somewhat smaller,
but let's call it identical for convenience.)

4) So -- over that range of temperatures:
the brass would expand 100 x 18.50e-6 x 24 = 0.037"
the bronze would expand 100 x 21.16e-6 x 24 = 0.051"
the CI would expand 100 x 11.20e-6 x 24 = 0.027"

or a total of 0.024" difference in size -- about 1/40th of an
inch, one turn of your micrometer thimble, which is hardly
likely to be enough to nudge any of the balls out of their
pockets.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in
message . ..

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
Without the spike parts I'd be tempted to say they had something to
do
with some very cold weather and two different size metallic monkeys.
:-)


OK! You've done it now!

I know this trivia (being in the explosives industry), but most don't.

WHAT does it mean to "freeze the balls off a brass monkey"?



Means about the same as "freezing the nuts off a tractor" when you live
up north

In article ,
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

OK! You've done it now!

I know this trivia (being in the explosives industry), but most don't.

WHAT does it mean to "freeze the balls off a brass monkey"?

Far as I know, all the explanations for this have been shot down.
Brass monkey being used to hold iron canonballs among them.

--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 16:21:13 GMT, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
m...

The stacks did become slack during extreme heat. The brass monkey became
looser. Only when it tightened excessively did the balls begin to roll
off.

Keep in mind that a triangular pyramid stack of spheres is stable to +-60
degrees of roll. That's a heavy sea.


From the rather small niche of black powder historians, the story comes this
way:

Anyone who physically handled cannon balls or powder was known as a "ball
monkey" or "powder monkey". The term "powder monkey" is still used today.
"Ball monkey" seems to have been lost.

On board most armed ships of the British fleet were triangular brass racks -
low bars of brass forged into an equilateral triangle - mounted to the
decks, into which to stack cannon balls in the familiar pyramid fashion.
This, to ready the balls for quick access.

Although the "brass monkeys" were only an inch or two high, the stacks made
within them were quite stable -- until the temperature dropped very, very
cold. At that point, due to different coefficients of expansion between
brass and iron, the balls came tumbling off their racks.

Thus, "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey". Of course, the
vulgar connotations came quite soon after. G

You may want to read any of the 20 Patrick O'Brian novels to learn
that shipboard artillery was not handled this way. Having done
extensive research, he knew a little of what he was talking about and
dealt with the subject fairly extensively in his books.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
4) So -- over that range of temperatures:
the brass would expand 100 x 18.50e-6 x 24 = 0.037"
the bronze would expand 100 x 21.16e-6 x 24 = 0.051"
the CI would expand 100 x 11.20e-6 x 24 = 0.027"

or a total of 0.024" difference in size -- about 1/40th of an
inch, one turn of your micrometer thimble, which is hardly
likely to be enough to nudge any of the balls out of their
pockets.

Not to mention the balls are most likely made of cast iron, only further
negating the shrinkage (though sudden changes could maybe leave the monkey
colder than the balls for a few hours).

Tim

--
Deep Fryer: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Matthew Russotto" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

OK! You've done it now!

I know this trivia (being in the explosives industry), but most don't.

WHAT does it mean to "freeze the balls off a brass monkey"?

Far as I know, all the explanations for this have been shot down.
Brass monkey being used to hold iron canonballs among them.

Well, actually, brass monkeys were used to hold balls on deck, but for
presentation and inspection, not for "ready shot".

I'll agree with the rantings of one poster who cited the relative expansion
coefficients of brass and iron, that it doesn't look like contraction alone
could do it.

(I don't contend this is right, but) The common anecdote has the trivets
forged. What if they were cast in one piece? What about possible
embrittlement of cast brass at low temperatures? If a cast brass trivet
were heavily secured at its apexes (apices?) to a deck that tends to rack
and twist somewhat (as all wooden ships do), and the temperature dropped to,
say, -20F, what might happen to the mechanical integrity of the brass?
Would it crack?

LLoyd

"Bruce Barnett" wrote in message
...
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" writes:

I only said that's the story according to black powder historians.

And their names are.....?

HINT: The earliest known reference to "brass monkey" was in 1857, and
it had nothing to do with cannons. The phrase was "freeze the tail of
a brass monkey."

p.s. Mark gave you references to look at, which you ignored.

No I didn't. I even concurred with him in another post. Don't accuse me of
being casual about your opinions unless you at least pay attention.

LLoyd

"LRod" wrote in message
...

You may want to read any of the 20 Patrick O'Brian novels to learn
that shipboard artillery was not handled this way. Having done
extensive research, he knew a little of what he was talking about and
dealt with the subject fairly extensively in his books.


I already did know that. But triangular racks for dress did (and still do)
exist. Used for presentation, not battle.


LLoyd

In article ,
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

"Gareth Owen" wrote in message
...
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" writes:

Nope, it has a quite definite etymology, but a rather exotic one.

The story I've heard is that it refers (in some way I could never
figure) to cannonballs and powder monkeys on Naval ships.

From the rather small niche of black powder historians, the story comes this
way:

Anyone who physically handled cannon balls or powder was known as a "ball
monkey" or "powder monkey". The term "powder monkey" is still used today.
"Ball monkey" seems to have been lost.

On board most armed ships of the British fleet were triangular brass racks -
low bars of brass forged into an equilateral triangle - mounted to the
decks, into which to stack cannon balls in the familiar pyramid fashion.
This, to ready the balls for quick access.

Although the "brass monkeys" were only an inch or two high, the stacks made
within them were quite stable -- until the temperature dropped very, very
cold. At that point, due to different coefficients of expansion between
brass and iron, the balls came tumbling off their racks.

Thus, "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey". Of course, the
vulgar connotations came quite soon after. G


Unfortunately, the above is *NOT* factual. It makes a good story, but ---
1) there are no authoritative references to those triangular frames as
a monkey (or variant of the word). I ran this down with several
professional military historians.
2) work out the thermal 'coefficient of expansion/contraction' for
the materials involved -- the fit 'at room temperature' would have
to be incredibly tight for the differences over, say 100 degrees F,
to cause the pyramid to tumble.

The "most reliable" history of the phrase traces it to cheap brass castings
from India, of "seated" monkeys (be it the classical "three monkeys" poses,
or others) imported to England and other Northern climes, with the subsequent
weather extremes leading to stress fractures at the relevant point in the
anatomy.


NOTE: I believed the 'naval' version to be the accurate story for many years.
had to do a bunch of digging to attempt to verify, when a career military
(artillery) person questioned it. Come to find there _wasn't_ any factual
basis. Despite the very plausible sound of it.

A few years later, "Cecil Adams" (of 'The Straight Dope') published his
research on the matter -- with the results cited above, with a note along
the lines of:
'improbable as it seems, this phrase is a literal description ...'

In article ,
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

"Matthew Russotto" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

OK! You've done it now!

I know this trivia (being in the explosives industry), but most don't.

WHAT does it mean to "freeze the balls off a brass monkey"?

Far as I know, all the explanations for this have been shot down.
Brass monkey being used to hold iron canonballs among them.

Well, actually, brass monkeys were used to hold balls on deck, but for
presentation and inspection, not for "ready shot".

I'll agree with the rantings of one poster who cited the relative expansion
coefficients of brass and iron, that it doesn't look like contraction alone
could do it.

(I don't contend this is right, but) The common anecdote has the trivets
forged. What if they were cast in one piece? What about possible
embrittlement of cast brass at low temperatures? If a cast brass trivet
were heavily secured at its apexes (apices?) to a deck that tends to rack
and twist somewhat (as all wooden ships do), and the temperature dropped to,
say, -20F, what might happen to the mechanical integrity of the brass?
Would it crack?

No.

Come on..."cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" is a
figure of speech, not an engineering report. And I bet the original
reference, now lost in pre-history, was to a brass statue of a monkey.

Joe Gwinn
Joe Gwinn

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" writes:

"Bruce Barnett" wrote in message
...
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" writes:

I only said that's the story according to black powder historians.

And their names are.....?

HINT: The earliest known reference to "brass monkey" was in 1857, and
it had nothing to do with cannons. The phrase was "freeze the tail of
a brass monkey."

p.s. Mark gave you references to look at, which you ignored.

No I didn't. I even concurred with him in another post. Don't accuse me of
being casual about your opinions unless you at least pay attention.

Let's go though this, since you claim I wasn't paying attention..

Mark said
Lloyd needs to read these references:

http://www.worldwidewords.org/ qa/qa-bra1.htm
http://www.snopes.com/language /stories/brass.htm

You said
[snip] it has a quite definite etymology, but a rather exotic one.

Mark said:

Go on, then. Prove it.

You said:

From the rather small niche of black powder historians, the story comes this
way:

[snip]
On board most armed ships of the British fleet were triangular brass racks -
low bars of brass forged into an equilateral triangle - mounted to the
decks, into which to stack cannon balls in the familiar pyramid fashion.
This, to ready the balls for quick access.

Although the "brass monkeys" were only an inch or two high, the stacks made
within them were quite stable -- until the temperature dropped very, very
cold. At that point, due to different coefficients of expansion between
brass and iron, the balls came tumbling off their racks.

Mark replied:

I said *prove* it. I have already posted cites refuting this answer.


To summarize, Mark posted some specific references that clearly give
evidence that your etymology is not "definite" but an urban
legend. You read them, (as you just claimed) yet you persisted in
stating that there is a definite etymology that disagrees with those
references.

And when challenged, you refer to some "black powder historians" that
have no names, and no document, and no web site to back up those facts.

When did I not pay attention? Please correct me....

--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 14:32:58 -0500, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

...

Thus, a pile of cannonballs and a rack say 4 feet on a side dropping in
temperature from say 70 F to -20 F would have an overall differential
length change of

4 * 12 * 4e-6 * 90 = 0.017"

Now LLoyd, please tell the group what you think that rack must have
looked like, and just how seventeen thou of change in a four foot long
dimension made the balls fall off it.
...

Must have been those tight tolerances...

Tight as a female brass monkey's... ahh never mind.

George

Bruce Barnett wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" writes:


"Bruce Barnett" wrote in message
. ..

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" writes:


I only said that's the story according to black powder historians.

And their names are.....?

HINT: The earliest known reference to "brass monkey" was in 1857, and
it had nothing to do with cannons. The phrase was "freeze the tail of
a brass monkey."

p.s. Mark gave you references to look at, which you ignored.


No I didn't. I even concurred with him in another post. Don't accuse me of
being casual about your opinions unless you at least pay attention.


Let's go though this, since you claim I wasn't paying attention..

Mark said

Lloyd needs to read these references:

http://www.worldwidewords.org/ qa/qa-bra1.htm
http://www.snopes.com/language /stories/brass.htm


You said

[snip] it has a quite definite etymology, but a rather exotic one.


Mark said:


Go on, then. Prove it.


You said:

From the rather small niche of black powder historians, the story comes this

way:


[snip]

On board most armed ships of the British fleet were triangular brass racks -
low bars of brass forged into an equilateral triangle - mounted to the
decks, into which to stack cannon balls in the familiar pyramid fashion.
This, to ready the balls for quick access.


Although the "brass monkeys" were only an inch or two high, the stacks made
within them were quite stable -- until the temperature dropped very, very
cold. At that point, due to different coefficients of expansion between
brass and iron, the balls came tumbling off their racks.


Mark replied:


I said *prove* it. I have already posted cites refuting this answer.



To summarize, Mark posted some specific references that clearly give
evidence that your etymology is not "definite" but an urban
legend. You read them, (as you just claimed) yet you persisted in
stating that there is a definite etymology that disagrees with those
references.

And when challenged, you refer to some "black powder historians" that
have no names, and no document, and no web site to back up those facts.

When did I not pay attention? Please correct me....


I'm really beginning to feel guilty about getting all this started with
what I intended as just a silly jest about the brass balls on the "What
is it" Item 436.

If SWMBO perchanced to read this thread she'd no doubt voice her disgust
by calling all of us "Tech Tools", which is what she calls me when I
perseverate endlessly about some inconsequential subject. :-)

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."