David Bridgeman wrote:

Duane,

Thanks for the response. So, by pigtail you mean us a male plug that
matches the 40A outlet, connect a sufficient gauge wire, the connect a 240v
20A female at the other end?

Yep...I have no idea how big a load the saw is, but can't be 20 A @
110V, so that's overkill for 220V. That needs 12 ga. I would not
suggest anything other than a single-use extension, however.

If you have need/use for additional 220V outlets in the shop area, I'd
either run a dedicated circuit or make the appropriate changes as others
have noted to convert this to a dedicated "up-to-snuff" circuit--and, it
would be better to have the separate shop circuit properly sized and
leave the kitchen circuit as is in that case imo.

Juergen Hannappel wrote:

(Doug Miller) writes:

[...]


For devices that use both 120V and 240V, yes. For devices that use
*only* 240V (and a table saw falls into this category) and thus do
not need a neutral, no,the NEC does *not* require four wires.

Does the coil of the switch on the saw operate between the two phase
leads or between ground and one of the phases? (I assume a saw will
have a magnetic starter...)
....

Probably not in this case...the particular saw in question is a
convertible 110/220V model, not a stationary. It probably has
double-pole mechanical switch.

In article , wrote:

Yep...I have no idea how big a load the saw is, but can't be 20 A @
110V

Ummmm... why could it not be more than 20A @ 120V ?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:20:40 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article .com, "Pig" wrote:
You gotta love the electrical question threads. Running buddies LRod
and Miller get into a bitch slapping-ego fest-I gotta have the last
word flame exchange with Toller where insults fly like the sparks from
a wiring job that followed their collective advice. A consistent theme
is that one or the other is giving dangerous advice, and usually ends
with someone swearing to plonk the other forever. Usually when the fur
stops flying someone like Wes drops in to correct everyone with some
solid and sage advice, leaving the OP wondering who to believe and
wondering how all this debate got started in the first place "geeze,
all I asked wuz if I could run my saw from the old dryer wiring."

ROTFL... unfortunately, Wes doesn't have a very good handle on it either, but
at least his errors fall on the side of excessive caution. Toller, OTOH, is
actively dangerous when he gives out electrical "advice", which is why LRod
and I keep slapping him. In alt.home.repair, just in the last month or so, he
told one poster to install his range hood with the equipment ground connected
to the circuit neutral,

Not taking sides in this tar baby punching contest, but you're now
worried about connecting "ground" to "neutral"? [g]

How come when I suggest this is something best avoided, I'm
excessively cautious? Maybe so... I wouldn't rely on a Sawstop
either.

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , wrote:

Yep...I have no idea how big a load the saw is, but can't be 20 A @
110V

Ummmm... why could it not be more than 20A @ 120V ?

Actually, it was supposition that it would be highly unlikely...poor
choice, probably to say "can't".

In article , Wes Stewart wrote:
On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:20:40 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article .com, "Pig"
wrote:
You gotta love the electrical question threads. Running buddies LRod
and Miller get into a bitch slapping-ego fest-I gotta have the last
word flame exchange with Toller where insults fly like the sparks from
a wiring job that followed their collective advice. A consistent theme
is that one or the other is giving dangerous advice, and usually ends
with someone swearing to plonk the other forever. Usually when the fur
stops flying someone like Wes drops in to correct everyone with some
solid and sage advice, leaving the OP wondering who to believe and
wondering how all this debate got started in the first place "geeze,
all I asked wuz if I could run my saw from the old dryer wiring."

ROTFL... unfortunately, Wes doesn't have a very good handle on it either, but
at least his errors fall on the side of excessive caution. Toller, OTOH, is
actively dangerous when he gives out electrical "advice", which is why LRod
and I keep slapping him. In alt.home.repair, just in the last month or so, he
told one poster to install his range hood with the equipment ground connected
to the circuit neutral,

Not taking sides in this tar baby punching contest, but you're now
worried about connecting "ground" to "neutral"? [g]

Two separate issues.

In the stove-cum-tablesaw circuit thread, we are discussing connecting a pure
240V device (two hots and a ground, no neutral) to a circuit that has three
conductors. You claim, utterly without foundation, that to do so is incorrect.

In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his stove, or
range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green wire
from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit *neutral*
_despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying to
connect it to *ground*.

How come when I suggest this is something best avoided, I'm
excessively cautious? Maybe so... I wouldn't rely on a Sawstop
either.

If you don't see that these are two separate issues - and *why* - you probably
shouldn't be giving out electrical advice *either*.

In the first case, there is no neutral in the proposed circuit; in the second
case, there *is* a neutral *and* an equipment ground, and we have an ignoramus
who says it's ok to interconnect them.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:20:40 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, just in the last month or so ...advised another
to connect a multiwire branch circuit to the two poles of a duplex
120V breaker...

Dear god, tell me he didn't. And here I thought (for a picosecond)
that maybe I was being a little insensitive to him.

For those who don't know, the multiwire branch circuit is like a 240V
circuit with a neutral which functions as two 120V circuits with a
common neutral. A duplex 240V breaker is required since the concept of
the common neutral is that the return currents of the two circuits
being fed 180° out of phase (by virtue of the duplex 240V breaker) are
in turn 180° out of phase and thus cancel. They can never sum to more
than the capacity of one leg of the breaker, regardless of any
imbalance of loads on the two branches, consequently the neutral is
safe insofar as its current carrying is concerned.

To attempt to wire that circuit from a duplex 120V breaker means that
both hots are of the same phase, and thus the return currents are
additive, equalling as much as TWICE the breaker current (depending on
the total load), and obviously much greater than the ampacity of the
neutral wire.

And you guys think we're bitchslapping him just for amusement.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

On Wed, 25 May 2005 14:38:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:

Yep...I have no idea how big a load the saw is, but can't be 20 A @
110V

Ummmm... why could it not be more than 20A @ 120V ?

It probably isn't any bigger than, say 2½ HP (since it's a convertible
motor). Are there any convertible motors bigger than that? Are there
any that big? That would definitely max out a 20A/120V circuit. I
think that's what he was getting at. We already know it's a
convertible motor and we can thus speculate with some authority from
there, can't we?


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 May 2005 03:12:56 GMT, "toller" wrote:

Yes, but. I would put in a more appropriately sized breaker and the
appropriate connector.

You shouldn't say that! A bunch of morons will tell you that the breaker
is
there to protect the supply wiring and not the item plugged into it; and
since the breaker is appropriate to the supply wiring, there is no reason
to
change the breaker.

Everyone's out of step but you, eh?
No, just about 4 morons. If I was in step with them I would really worry.

Why they wouldn't also want to protect the item plugged into it, when they
can do so for the price of a breaker, is totally beyond me. Admittedly it
is not a question of code requirements; just common sense.

Where do you find the 1/10 A breakers to protect your light bulbs?
Where do you get the ¼ A breakers to protect your clock radio? Where
did you find a panel that would accommodate all of those little
breakers (must be a half a hundred or more in an average house)?
I assume from your reasoning above that you would want to protect all
your low current devices plugged into your massive 15A and 20A
circuits, "for the price of a breaker."

Damn, you are incredibly stupid.
Why would you make such silly assumptions otherwise?

In article , wrote:
On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:20:40 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, just in the last month or so ...advised another
to connect a multiwire branch circuit to the two poles of a duplex
120V breaker...

Dear god, tell me he didn't. And here I thought (for a picosecond)
that maybe I was being a little insensitive to him.

Yes, he did - because he thought that the "1 pole duplex" breaker that the OP
in the thread referred to, was a 240V breaker. Whether the mistake was due to
inattention, ignorance, malice, stupidity, or a combination thereof is
impossible to tell, but there it is.

Google alt.home.repair for the phrase "duplex breaker" on 14 May 2005 for all
the gory details.

For those who don't know, the multiwire branch circuit is like a 240V
circuit with a neutral which functions as two 120V circuits with a
common neutral. A duplex 240V breaker is required since the concept of
the common neutral is that the return currents of the two circuits
being fed 180° out of phase (by virtue of the duplex 240V breaker) are
in turn 180° out of phase and thus cancel. They can never sum to more
than the capacity of one leg of the breaker, regardless of any
imbalance of loads on the two branches, consequently the neutral is
safe insofar as its current carrying is concerned.

To attempt to wire that circuit from a duplex 120V breaker means that
both hots are of the same phase, and thus the return currents are
additive, equalling as much as TWICE the breaker current (depending on
the total load), and obviously much greater than the ampacity of the
neutral wire.

And you guys think we're bitchslapping him just for amusement.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , "toller" wrote:

"LRod" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 25 May 2005 03:12:56 GMT, "toller" wrote:
Why they wouldn't also want to protect the item plugged into it, when they
can do so for the price of a breaker, is totally beyond me. Admittedly it
is not a question of code requirements; just common sense.

Where do you find the 1/10 A breakers to protect your light bulbs?
Where do you get the ¼ A breakers to protect your clock radio? Where
did you find a panel that would accommodate all of those little
breakers (must be a half a hundred or more in an average house)?
I assume from your reasoning above that you would want to protect all
your low current devices plugged into your massive 15A and 20A
circuits, "for the price of a breaker."

Damn, you are incredibly stupid.

This, coming from the guy who, just in the last month, has:
a) claimed that it was nearly impossible to get a fatal shock from 60Hz 120VAC
b) admitted to working on branch circuits without verifying that power was off
c) advised connecting an appliance equipment ground conductor to the *neutral*
of the circuit supplying it
d) advised connecting both legs of a multiwire circuit to a single pole duplex
breaker.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

LRod wrote:

On Wed, 25 May 2005 14:38:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:

Yep...I have no idea how big a load the saw is, but can't be 20 A @
110V

Ummmm... why could it not be more than 20A @ 120V ?

It probably isn't any bigger than, say 2½ HP (since it's a convertible
motor). Are there any convertible motors bigger than that? Are there
any that big? That would definitely max out a 20A/120V circuit. I
think that's what he was getting at. We already know it's a
convertible motor and we can thus speculate with some authority from
there, can't we?

That was basis of my conjecture, yes...what is largest convertible
available I don't know.

On Wed, 25 May 2005 16:17:40 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Wes Stewart wrote:
On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:20:40 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article .com, "Pig"
wrote:
You gotta love the electrical question threads. Running buddies LRod
and Miller get into a bitch slapping-ego fest-I gotta have the last
word flame exchange with Toller where insults fly like the sparks from
a wiring job that followed their collective advice. A consistent theme
is that one or the other is giving dangerous advice, and usually ends
with someone swearing to plonk the other forever. Usually when the fur
stops flying someone like Wes drops in to correct everyone with some
solid and sage advice, leaving the OP wondering who to believe and
wondering how all this debate got started in the first place "geeze,
all I asked wuz if I could run my saw from the old dryer wiring."

ROTFL... unfortunately, Wes doesn't have a very good handle on it either, but
at least his errors fall on the side of excessive caution. Toller, OTOH, is
actively dangerous when he gives out electrical "advice", which is why LRod
and I keep slapping him. In alt.home.repair, just in the last month or so, he
told one poster to install his range hood with the equipment ground connected
to the circuit neutral,

Not taking sides in this tar baby punching contest, but you're now
worried about connecting "ground" to "neutral"? [g]

Two separate issues.

In the stove-cum-tablesaw circuit thread, we are discussing connecting a pure
240V device (two hots and a ground, no neutral) to a circuit that has three
conductors. You claim, utterly without foundation, that to do so is incorrect.

In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his stove, or
range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green wire
from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit *neutral*
_despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying to
connect it to *ground*.

How come when I suggest this is something best avoided, I'm
excessively cautious? Maybe so... I wouldn't rely on a Sawstop
either.

If you don't see that these are two separate issues - and *why* - you probably
shouldn't be giving out electrical advice *either*.

Sorry. My tongue-in-cheek eluded you.

*If* the OP is absolutely, positively sure that the line in question
travels unbroken back to the service panel with no other loads
attached, then he can wrap some green tape around the white wire at
both ends and call it equipment ground. If I had personally wired
this circuit and knew this to be the case, that's what I would do.
Otherwise, I would make no such assumption without further detective
work. That was the point I was trying to make in the first place;
until you know for sure, it's a "neutral."

But since neither of us has provided our credentials that denote
expertise in the field, I submit that our advice is equally suspect.

I have had my say and will sign off now and go back to the shop and
see if my shellac flakes have dissolved.

The Dewalt has a 1-3/4 HP TEFC induction motor convertible to 220. So
the 20A socket/plug with 12 gauge wire should work.

I am absolutely sure the circuit comes directly from the service panel.
One thing I did notice was the outlet is says 50A, but the breaker is
definitely 40A. One of the posts mentioned subpanels. This circuit is
in a subpanel technically. By subpanel I mean that the circuit is in
the original main panel. The house service was upgraded for an
addition prior to me owning the house. A new panel was installed and
the original main panel became a subpanel (I think I as saying that
right). Anyway the 40A breaker supplies the outlet approximately 8 ft
away from the panel. There is nothing else connected to this circuit.
I don't know the gauge of the wire, but it if a fat sucker. Since I
installed the gas line 20 years ago, the prior owner could have only
used electric. So the circuit was installed in the early 60's.

Thanks for all the responses. I think I know what to do now.

In article . com, wrote:
The Dewalt has a 1-3/4 HP TEFC induction motor convertible to 220. So
the 20A socket/plug with 12 gauge wire should work.

I am absolutely sure the circuit comes directly from the service panel.
One thing I did notice was the outlet is says 50A, but the breaker is
definitely 40A. One of the posts mentioned subpanels. This circuit is
in a subpanel technically. By subpanel I mean that the circuit is in
the original main panel. The house service was upgraded for an
addition prior to me owning the house. A new panel was installed and
the original main panel became a subpanel (I think I as saying that
right).

That being the case - in order to do this safely:
a) the subpanel must have a separate grounding bus bar...
b) ... which must be connected to the ground or neutral bus in the main panel
c) ... and must NOT be connected to the neutral bus in the subpanel
d) and the grounding conductor of the circuit must be connected to the
*ground* bus in the subpanel.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Two questions:

Can I check by removing the panel covers and checking that the
connections match your above safety list?

Is your list the proper way it should have been done when the service
was upgraded? (I have no reason to believe it wasn't)

Thanks for your help.

Dave

wrote:

Two questions:

Can I check by removing the panel covers and checking that the
connections match your above safety list?

Is your list the proper way it should have been done when the service
was upgraded? (I have no reason to believe it wasn't)
....

Yes (to both).

In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his stove,
or
range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green wire
from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit *neutral*
_despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying to
connect it to *ground*.

That you alpha-turd?

"Here are the instructions from Jennair:

'The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
the green grounding wire.'"

So exactly how did I contradict the instructions?

On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:05:07 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Juergen Hannappel wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:


[...]


For devices that use both 120V and 240V, yes. For devices that use
*only* 240V (and a table saw falls into this category) and thus do
not need a neutral, no,the NEC does *not* require four wires.


Does the coil of the switch on the saw operate between the two phase
leads or between ground and one of the phases? (I assume a saw will
have a magnetic starter...)

What difference does it make? The saw's power cord has only three wires: two
hots, and equipment ground.

My code book is kind of old; however, it states:

"NEC Article 210-10: Ungrounded Conductors Tapped from Grounded
Systems.

Two-wire dc and ac circuits of two or more ungrounded conductors shall
be permitted to be tapped from the ungrounded conductors of circuits
having a grounded neutral conductor. Switching devices in each tapped
circuit shall have a pole in *each* (emphasis added) ungrounded
conductor."

On 25 May 2005 12:20:26 -0700, wrote:

The Dewalt has a 1-3/4 HP TEFC induction motor convertible to 220. So
the 20A socket/plug with 12 gauge wire should work.

I am absolutely sure the circuit comes directly from the service panel.
One thing I did notice was the outlet is says 50A, but the breaker is
definitely 40A. One of the posts mentioned subpanels. This circuit is
in a subpanel technically. By subpanel I mean that the circuit is in
the original main panel. The house service was upgraded for an
addition prior to me owning the house. A new panel was installed and
the original main panel became a subpanel (I think I as saying that
right). Anyway the 40A breaker supplies the outlet approximately 8 ft
away from the panel. There is nothing else connected to this circuit.
I don't know the gauge of the wire, but it if a fat sucker. Since I
installed the gas line 20 years ago, the prior owner could have only
used electric. So the circuit was installed in the early 60's.

Okay. If this retrofit was done correctly, the neutral and ground bus
bars in the "old" (now sub) panel were separated. Your (saw circuit)
neutral wire connects to the now separate neutral bus bar and that bus
in turn is wired to the common neutral-ground bus in the new service
panel. This point is the earth ground reference.

*All* of the neutral currents from the "old" panel are now conducted
by the one neutral wire back to the new panel where the wire connects
to earth. So your circuit *is not* the only thing on this neutral
conductor. Much of the rest of your house is a common load.

Now I don't know how far apart these panels are. They might be bolted
together for all I know, in which case there is essentially no issue.
However, if they are separated some distance then there will be some
I^2 * R voltage drop in the neutral wire connecting the panels. If
the loads on the two phases are split reasonably well, then the
neutral current should be small. However, a major fault on some
circuit can drive the current very high until a breaker opens. This
will yank the neutral to some potential further above ground. If you
are clamped onto your saw at the time with your feet on damp concrete,
who knows what will happen.

In article .com, wrote:
Two questions:

Can I check by removing the panel covers and checking that the
connections match your above safety list?

Yep.

Is your list the proper way it should have been done when the service
was upgraded? (I have no reason to believe it wasn't)

Yep.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , "toller" wrote:

In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his stove,
or
range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green wire
from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit *neutral*
_despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying to
connect it to *ground*.

"Here are the instructions from Jennair:

'The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
the green grounding wire.'"

Convenient snip, toller. Here's the *full* quote, which demonstrates clearly
that you *did* do exactly what I *said* you did:

Here are the instructions from Jennair:

"The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
the green grounding wire. If used on new branch-circuit
installations (1996 NEC), mobile homes, recreational
vehicles, or in an area where local codes prohibit
grounding through the neutral conductor, untwist or
disconnect the green wire and connect the green wire to
ground in accordance with local code. Connect the white
neutral to the service neutral."

So exactly how did I contradict the instructions?

When you told him "the green wire has to be attached to the neutral".

Read the next to last sentence of the manufacturer's instructions: "...connect
the green wire to ground..."




--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , Wes Stewart wrote:
On Wed, 25 May 2005 13:05:07 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Juergen Hannappel
wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:


[...]


For devices that use both 120V and 240V, yes. For devices that use
*only* 240V (and a table saw falls into this category) and thus do
not need a neutral, no,the NEC does *not* require four wires.


Does the coil of the switch on the saw operate between the two phase
leads or between ground and one of the phases? (I assume a saw will
have a magnetic starter...)

What difference does it make? The saw's power cord has only three wires: two
hots, and equipment ground.

My code book is kind of old; however, it states:

"NEC Article 210-10: Ungrounded Conductors Tapped from Grounded
Systems.

Two-wire dc and ac circuits of two or more ungrounded conductors shall
be permitted to be tapped from the ungrounded conductors of circuits
having a grounded neutral conductor. Switching devices in each tapped
circuit shall have a pole in *each* (emphasis added) ungrounded
conductor."

The switch in the table saw, being cord-and-plug-connected, is not part of the
circuit, and this article therefore does not apply.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , Wes Stewart wrote:
On 25 May 2005 12:20:26 -0700, wrote:

The Dewalt has a 1-3/4 HP TEFC induction motor convertible to 220. So
the 20A socket/plug with 12 gauge wire should work.

I am absolutely sure the circuit comes directly from the service panel.
One thing I did notice was the outlet is says 50A, but the breaker is
definitely 40A. One of the posts mentioned subpanels. This circuit is
in a subpanel technically. By subpanel I mean that the circuit is in
the original main panel. The house service was upgraded for an
addition prior to me owning the house. A new panel was installed and
the original main panel became a subpanel (I think I as saying that
right). Anyway the 40A breaker supplies the outlet approximately 8 ft
away from the panel. There is nothing else connected to this circuit.
I don't know the gauge of the wire, but it if a fat sucker. Since I
installed the gas line 20 years ago, the prior owner could have only
used electric. So the circuit was installed in the early 60's.

Okay. If this retrofit was done correctly, the neutral and ground bus
bars in the "old" (now sub) panel were separated. Your (saw circuit)
neutral wire connects to the now separate neutral bus bar and that bus
in turn is wired to the common neutral-ground bus in the new service
panel. This point is the earth ground reference.

*All* of the neutral currents from the "old" panel are now conducted
by the one neutral wire back to the new panel where the wire connects
to earth. So your circuit *is not* the only thing on this neutral
conductor. Much of the rest of your house is a common load.

Interesting, but irrelevant - for safety, and Code compliance, this conductor
*must* (as I have noted in an earlier post) be moved to the *grounding* bus in
the subpanel. Once that is done, none of the considerations you give here
apply.

Now I don't know how far apart these panels are. They might be bolted
together for all I know, in which case there is essentially no issue.
However, if they are separated some distance then there will be some
I^2 * R voltage drop in the neutral wire connecting the panels. If
the loads on the two phases are split reasonably well, then the
neutral current should be small. However, a major fault on some
circuit can drive the current very high until a breaker opens. This
will yank the neutral to some potential further above ground. If you
are clamped onto your saw at the time with your feet on damp concrete,
who knows what will happen.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. ..
In article , "toller"
wrote:

In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his stove,
or
range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green
wire
from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit *neutral*
_despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying to
connect it to *ground*.

"Here are the instructions from Jennair:

'The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
the green grounding wire.'"

Convenient snip, toller. Here's the *full* quote, which demonstrates
clearly
that you *did* do exactly what I *said* you did:

Here are the instructions from Jennair:

"The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
the green grounding wire. If used on new branch-circuit
installations (1996 NEC), mobile homes, recreational
vehicles, or in an area where local codes prohibit
grounding through the neutral conductor, untwist or
disconnect the green wire and connect the green wire to
ground in accordance with local code. Connect the white
neutral to the service neutral."

So exactly how did I contradict the instructions?

When you told him "the green wire has to be attached to the neutral".

Read the next to last sentence of the manufacturer's instructions:
"...connect
the green wire to ground..."

He had a three wire circuit. What ground?
I was quite correct, which I presume you are smart enough to know; but are
just too big an ass to admit.
What on earth motivates you to act like this?

In article , "toller" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "toller"
wrote:

In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his stove,
or
range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green
wire
from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit *neutral*
_despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying to
connect it to *ground*.

"Here are the instructions from Jennair:

'The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
the green grounding wire.'"

Convenient snip, toller. Here's the *full* quote, which demonstrates
clearly
that you *did* do exactly what I *said* you did:

Here are the instructions from Jennair:

"The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
the green grounding wire. If used on new branch-circuit
installations (1996 NEC), mobile homes, recreational
vehicles, or in an area where local codes prohibit
grounding through the neutral conductor, untwist or
disconnect the green wire and connect the green wire to
ground in accordance with local code. Connect the white
neutral to the service neutral."

So exactly how did I contradict the instructions?

When you told him "the green wire has to be attached to the neutral".

Read the next to last sentence of the manufacturer's instructions:
"...connect
the green wire to ground..."

He had a three wire circuit. What ground?

The metal flex conduit that he described in the first sentence of the original
post.

I was quite correct,

Obviously you were not.

which I presume you are smart enough to know; but are
just too big an ass to admit.

I'm certainly smart enough to know the difference between neutral and ground.
And I'll never admit that you were right here, because you *clearly* are
totally wrong. *Read* the thread, for crying out loud: the instructions the
guy quoted say clearly to connect the green wire to ground, and you told him
just as clearly to connect it to the circuit neutral. How can you possibly
think even for a moment that you were right?

What on earth motivates you to act like this?

It's really very simple, troller: the electrical "advice" you give is
incorrect and dangerous. You don't have the first idea what the hell you're
talking about. You know just enough about it to sound knowledgeable to someone
who knows less about it than you do, but most of what you say is just flat
wrong (like the instance we're discussing right now) - and a lot of it is
downright dangerous. My motivation is to keep other people from getting
injured or killed by following your incorrect and dangerous "advice".

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

wrote:
Two questions:

Can I check by removing the panel covers and checking that the
connections match your above safety list?

Is your list the proper way it should have been done when the service
was upgraded? (I have no reason to believe it wasn't)

Thanks for your help.

Dave


You know Dave, seeing that you are talking about just an 8ft run to the
existing range receptacle and sounds like not far from there to your
saw, I would be inclined just to go into the panel disconnect and remove
the existing range circuit - replace the breaker with the needed 20A -
2pole 240V and put a new run of 12AWG 2+gnd to a 20A receptacle at the
saw - job done. I believe you are required to have an inspection.

Do not leave the disconnected cable inside the panel. It must be
removed from the panel but you could leave it tacked up nearby for a
possible future. If there is truly no ground in this cable it likely is
likely of little use for code compliance in future.

An alternate if you think you may have more 240V loads could be to use
the existing 40A breaker and supply a small sub to provide multiple
branch circuits, 120 or 240, for your workshop.

Ed

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "toller"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "toller"

wrote:

In the other case, someone was asking how to properly connect his
stove,
or
range hood, I forget which - and toller told him to connect the green
wire
from the appliance (i.e. the equipment ground) to the circuit
*neutral*
_despite_ the OP having quoted the manufacturer's instructions saying
to
connect it to *ground*.

"Here are the instructions from Jennair:

'The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
the green grounding wire.'"

Convenient snip, toller. Here's the *full* quote, which demonstrates
clearly
that you *did* do exactly what I *said* you did:

Here are the instructions from Jennair:

"The neutral of this unit is grounded to the frame through
the green grounding wire. If used on new branch-circuit
installations (1996 NEC), mobile homes, recreational
vehicles, or in an area where local codes prohibit
grounding through the neutral conductor, untwist or
disconnect the green wire and connect the green wire to
ground in accordance with local code. Connect the white
neutral to the service neutral."

So exactly how did I contradict the instructions?

When you told him "the green wire has to be attached to the neutral".

Read the next to last sentence of the manufacturer's instructions:
"...connect
the green wire to ground..."

He had a three wire circuit. What ground?

The metal flex conduit that he described in the first sentence of the
original
post.

I was quite correct,

Obviously you were not.

which I presume you are smart enough to know; but are
just too big an ass to admit.

I'm certainly smart enough to know the difference between neutral and
ground.
And I'll never admit that you were right here, because you *clearly* are
totally wrong. *Read* the thread, for crying out loud: the instructions
the
guy quoted say clearly to connect the green wire to ground, and you told
him
just as clearly to connect it to the circuit neutral. How can you possibly
think even for a moment that you were right?

What on earth motivates you to act like this?

It's really very simple, troller: the electrical "advice" you give is
incorrect and dangerous. You don't have the first idea what the hell
you're
talking about. You know just enough about it to sound knowledgeable to
someone
who knows less about it than you do, but most of what you say is just flat
wrong (like the instance we're discussing right now) - and a lot of it is
downright dangerous. My motivation is to keep other people from getting
injured or killed by following your incorrect and dangerous "advice".

God, you just don't give up!
I can't imagine what you are like in person.

In article , "toller" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...

It's really very simple, troller: the electrical "advice" you give is
incorrect and dangerous. You don't have the first idea what the hell
you're
talking about. You know just enough about it to sound knowledgeable to
someone
who knows less about it than you do, but most of what you say is just flat
wrong (like the instance we're discussing right now) - and a lot of it is
downright dangerous. My motivation is to keep other people from getting
injured or killed by following your incorrect and dangerous "advice".

God, you just don't give up!

Me??? Time after time, I and others have pointed out the oftentimes dangerous
flaws in your electrical advice, and yet you keep going, remaining under the
delusion that you actually know what you're talking about, despite abundant
evidence to the contrary.

No, I'm not going to give up. As long as you keep posting incorrect and
dangerous answers to electrical questions (like the one discussed above), I'm
going to keep pointing out that your answers are incorrect and dangerous.

If you don't like that, the solution is simple: stop posting incorrect and
dangerous electrical advice.

I can't imagine what you are like in person.

I don't have any more patience for fools in person than I have online. :-)

I don't have it in for you personally, toller. You may have noticed (since you
haven't *really* killfiled me as you claim) that I've given you some helpful
and polite answers to your woodworking questions here, and to a couple of your
plumbing questions in a.h.r.

The *only* area where I have a problem with you is electrical questions: you
DO NOT know enough to be competent to answer them safely. If you were giving
bad advice on, say, painting, I'd laugh at you a time or two, and leave it at
that, because no real harm could possibly result. Electricity is different:
it's dangerous if mishandled, and bad electrical advice can kill people.

Sadly, you appear ignorant of *both* of those concepts.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?