Only Rockler router bits tell they have 800 grit carbide. I can not find
what Freud or CMT has? Could you tell me?

Chuck

Go with whiteside. From woodcraft if they are on sale (they put a
different whiteside bit on sale each month)

You'll be very happy with CMT and Freud bits. Or Amana. Or Bosch.
don't know about Rockler bits...

Dave

CNT wrote:
Only Rockler router bits tell they have 800 grit carbide. I can not find
what Freud or CMT has? Could you tell me?

Chuck

David wrote:
You'll be very happy with CMT and Freud bits. Or Amana. Or Bosch.
don't know about Rockler bits...

Dave

CNT wrote:
Only Rockler router bits tell they have 800 grit carbide. I can not
find
what Freud or CMT has? Could you tell me?

Chuck

Buy Whiteside....Made in America by Americans....we need the jobs....I
have been to the Whiteside factory a number of times....first class
operation and wonderful people....let's keep the jobs here in
America...the best product made by the best people from the best
country...we all win!!
Mike

CNT wrote:
Only Rockler router bits tell they have 800 grit carbide. I can not find
what Freud or CMT has? Could you tell me?

Chuck


What does 800 grit have to do with a carbide
router bit? You mean it was sharpened with an 800
grit stone?

wrote in news:1116036006.058166.69330
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:


David wrote:
You'll be very happy with CMT and Freud bits. Or Amana. Or Bosch.
don't know about Rockler bits...
snip
Buy Whiteside....Made in America by Americans....we need the jobs....I
have been to the Whiteside factory a number of times....first class
operation and wonderful people....let's keep the jobs here in
America...the best product made by the best people from the best
country...we all win!!
Mike


The most valid economic argument that one needs to make for Whiteside is
that their product is excellent, gives good, repeatable service, and is
priced fairly.

If you're going to do a job more than once, a tool that lasts is a better
buy.

Patriarch,
who thinks that good jobs for his neighbors is a good thing, too.

I guess you got me corrected. Yes, it would be that way...

What does 800 grit have to do with a carbide
router bit? You mean it was sharpened with an 800
grit stone?

I am trying to compare and analyze different router bits. From just
looking at the shelf, the CMT would win me. Freud has many good reports.
From what I gather somewhat "best bang for buck", Freud would be it. But
for only few dollars more, CMT would then be gotten. I am not asking
"what is the best router bit" because it's going to be full of opinion. I
did read a review about bits, but it was mainly with straight cuts, not
panel models.

I still can not find a store where they sell Freud bits? Must be ordered
online? Tomorrow, I am going to Lowies for first time (new store in my
town) to see if they sell Freud. I remember from WW show, there's a brand
called Viper, comments?

Rockler tells me if ANYTHING goes wrong with the Rockler bit, bring it
back to the store. Of course, I mention "wear?" and they said it depends,
but bring it back, we will see about it then. They also have another
brand bits next to the Rockler brand, I THINK it's Amana, boy it's
expensive (talking about TWICE as much), but I am buying router bits to
use it, not for show-and-tell.

I still don't know what is Freud 2+2, except 2+2 obvious would be 4, huh?

It's a $200 investment, except $250 for CMT. I am interested in "3-set".

Chuck

http://www.freud-tools.com/freud99matra.html

It's doesn't say what is the depth? 3/8" or 7/16" ?

Correct me, does the Whiteside have the hardest carbide of all?

Chuck

If you're going to do a job more than once, a tool that lasts is a
better buy.

CNT wrote in :
snip
I still can not find a store where they sell Freud bits? Must be
ordered online? Tomorrow, I am going to Lowies for first time (new
store in my town) to see if they sell Freud. I remember from WW show,
there's a brand called Viper, comments?

Oldham makes Viper. I bought some when I got my first router, but
haven't purchased any more. They are OK, sort of, but they are locked
up under glass at Home Depot (reasonable), and you have to find a tool
person with a key and 4 minutes to actually purchase anything (less
reasonable).


Rockler tells me if ANYTHING goes wrong with the Rockler bit, bring it
back to the store. Of course, I mention "wear?" and they said it
depends, but bring it back, we will see about it then. They also have
another brand bits next to the Rockler brand, I THINK it's Amana, boy
it's expensive (talking about TWICE as much), but I am buying router
bits to use it, not for show-and-tell.

The reason to buy Amana is for the doing, not the show & tell. Their
selection will be wider, and they will be in the specialty bits that
Rockler doesn't sell in the blue line.

I still don't know what is Freud 2+2, except 2+2 obvious would be 4,
huh?

It's a $200 investment, except $250 for CMT. I am interested in
"3-set".

Check your local directory and see if you can find an
industrial/commercial sharpening service that caters to cabinet shops
and the like. Or call a local shop, and see who sells them their bits.
My local guy has a wide selection of Whiteside on hand, and the tooling
to resharpen them on site. The cabinet door set I bought from him,
locally, with tax, was a bunch lower than what you're quoting, everyday.
Ask them about band saw blades while you're there, and see about
sharpening or replacing your table saw blade, before you cut into that
$1000 stack of kitchen cabinet materials. You might just save the cost
of the router bits in one visit.

Chuck

Keep asking questions. That kitchen will get itself done by Labor Day.
;-) Take some pictures along the way. It makes the bragging easier,
when folks tell you how good it looks.

You might just share here, too. Guys like Swingman, who have been doing
this a while, still like showing off their craftsmanship, even after
many dozens of kitchens. That's a good thing, and inspiration to most
of us.

Patriarch

CNT wrote in :

Correct me, does the Whiteside have the hardest carbide of all?

Chuck

If you're going to do a job more than once, a tool that lasts is a
better buy.


There are materials scientists around who understand this better than I,
who was schooled as an economist. There is a trade off between hardness
and brittleness. Brittle means chipping, poor edge retention, and poorer
cut, poorer value.

Like most things in life, you have to look at maximizing more than one
variable, and there are trade offs.

says...

Buy Whiteside....Made in America by Americans....we need the jobs....I
have been to the Whiteside factory a number of times....first class
operation and wonderful people....let's keep the jobs here in
America...the best product made by the best people from the best
country...we all win!!
Mike

Unfortunately, they aren't easy to find. A local hardware/lumber shop
has a good selection of Freud bits, and I can get Freud table saw blades
and Forstner bits at HD, but I've never seen Whiteside anywhere but
Woodcraft.

"CNT" wrote in message

I am trying to compare and analyze different router bits.

Not easily done from reading specifications on some, but not given on
others. There are different types of carbide and the better grades hold a
better edge for a longer time. If you look here
http://www.ridgecarbidetool.com/html/custom.htm you will see they have
different grades for different mateials to be cut.

If you look here http://www.infinitytools.com/departments.asp?dept=1001
you will see similar specifications. They also mention the bearing quality,
etc.





From just
looking at the shelf, the CMT would win me. Freud has many good reports.
From what I gather somewhat "best bang for buck", Freud would be it. But
for only few dollars more, CMT would then be gotten.

Both are good bits. As are others.

I am not asking
"what is the best router bit" because it's going to be full of opinion.

Ver true. I use a few different bands and have my favorites. I'ms ure there
are many good brands that I have not tried.




I still can not find a store where they sell Freud bits? Must be ordered
online?

I've seen them in stores. IIRC, Sears had some. Lowes is not the place to
look for quality bits. Or for a good selection.



Rockler tells me if ANYTHING goes wrong with the Rockler bit, bring it
back to the store.

Nice to know. How about the wood that gets ruined though?



, I THINK it's Amana, boy it's
expensive (talking about TWICE as much), but I am buying router bits to
use it, not for show-and-tell.

Yes, it is. Amana is good too. They are for use in pro shops, not for show.

It's a $200 investment, except $250 for CMT. I am interested in "3-set".

I have some $5 bits from Woodcraft. They are very good for what I use them
for, but they are not anywhere near the quality of the top brands. I'd not
trust them to use on anything expensive or complex. I have Whiteside,
Infinity, Freud, Jesada, Lee Valley. If I was doing raised panels, fancy
edges, I'd stick with the more expensive, known high quality brands. I'd
not try to save a few $ and risk $50 in wood and hours of time. Tough to
put that into the equation for best bang for the buck.

Good luck with your choice. Best bang is different for the home shop that
will make a profile on 4' of wood and put it aside for a year or three
versus cutting hundreds of feet of high priced exotic wood.

On run-out: The only bits I've used that had run-out were Vipers. Two
out of three bits purchased more than a year apart. I stay away from
Vipers just like Woodline.

Dave

Ba r r y wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2005 05:09:06 -0000, CNT wrote:


Correct me, does the Whiteside have the hardest carbide of all?


Who cares?

In my actual usage, on wood and composites, Whiteside bits make me
smile the most. G

CMT, Amana, and Freud are good, but a small notch down. Asian bits,
like Carb-Tech, Woodcraft's house brand, Rockler, etc... are down from
that. I base this opinion of actual usage, and the results on cut
quality and how long the quality stays.

Aside from carbide, the runout and quality of the shaft of the bit is
very important. I have some bits that leave a scary smooth profile,
others that leave chatter marks of different degrees.

Barry

wrote in message
ups.com...

Buy Whiteside....Made in America by Americans....we need the jobs

We don't need the jobs, 10,000,000 ilegal's from Mexico prove that. We
simply need to realize that what we want to be paid is more than the job is
worth.


have been to the Whiteside factory a number of times....first class
operation and wonderful people....let's keep the jobs here in
America...the best product made by the best people

That is certainly debatable.

from the best
country...we all win!!

Pnly if in a particular case the US built item is better.

Found this when searching on router bits... still couldn't find
Whiteside's own website homepage. Do you know the Whiteside URL?

"It is Whiteside's policy to provide you with the best possible Router
Bits. Superior Quality, American-made Router Bits - Not the Imported
tooling many of our competitors sell out of a U.S. supply house. These
competitors down-play the fact that their tools are imported. Their
catalogs leave out the country of origin for their product. Their names
sound American. Some even add "USA" to their company name. On the other
hand, Whiteside Tools are MADE IN THE USA. Whiteside Tools more than
measure up to the competition. In addition, we are here in the U.S. to
help you with our years of experience. We are here in the U.S. to provide
technical support. We are here in the U.S. to provide custom tooling if
the job demands it. We sell exclusively through qualified distributors
who know something about woodworking and can offer additional support.
Finally, we stand behind our product. If you haven't used a Whiteside
router bit, we invite you to give us a try."


Buy Whiteside....Made in America by Americans....we need the jobs....I
have been to the Whiteside factory a number of times....first class
operation and wonderful people....let's keep the jobs here in
America...the best product made by the best people from the best
country...we all win!!

"CNT" wrote in message
...
Found this when searching on router bits... still couldn't find
Whiteside's own website homepage. Do you know the Whiteside URL?

http://www.whitesiderouterbits.com/

"Patriarch" wrote in message
. 97.136...
CNT wrote in :

Correct me, does the Whiteside have the hardest carbide of all?

Chuck

If you're going to do a job more than once, a tool that lasts is a
better buy.


There are materials scientists around who understand this better than I,
who was schooled as an economist. There is a trade off between hardness
and brittleness. Brittle means chipping, poor edge retention, and poorer
cut, poorer value.

Like most things in life, you have to look at maximizing more than one
variable, and there are trade offs.

Well said, just like the touted Jap chisels a chip in one of those will
probably take a day of grinding to repair....mjh

"Ba r r y" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 May 2005 05:09:06 -0000, CNT wrote:

Correct me, does the Whiteside have the hardest carbide of all?

Who cares?

In my actual usage, on wood and composites, Whiteside bits make me
smile the most. G

CMT, Amana, and Freud are good, but a small notch down. Asian bits,
like Carb-Tech, Woodcraft's house brand, Rockler, etc... are down from
that. I base this opinion of actual usage, and the results on cut
quality and how long the quality stays.

Aside from carbide, the runout and quality of the shaft of the bit is
very important. I have some bits that leave a scary smooth profile,
others that leave chatter marks of different degrees.

Barry


I have never come to grips totally with runout, the definition that is .
Seems to me we should be talking about eccentricity here not runout....mjh

"David" wrote in message
...
On run-out: The only bits I've used that had run-out were Vipers. Two
out of three bits purchased more than a year apart. I stay away from
Vipers just like Woodline.

Again we are talking runout presumably with bits with two symetrical cutting
edges .Are we also talking "runout" with a single assymetric cutting edge
bits ...mjh

How long do you expect to use a router bit. They flat do not last forever.
In my opinion that must be considered. Sharpening, I don't know about that.
A little proper honing done correctly is ok. But sharpening would depend on
the thickness of the carbide.
Also hard means brittle and thus chipping as mentioned. I personally say
away from the real hard carbide.....
George


"CNT" wrote in message
...
I guess you got me corrected. Yes, it would be that way...

What does 800 grit have to do with a carbide
router bit? You mean it was sharpened with an 800
grit stone?

I am trying to compare and analyze different router bits. From just
looking at the shelf, the CMT would win me. Freud has many good reports.
From what I gather somewhat "best bang for buck", Freud would be it. But
for only few dollars more, CMT would then be gotten. I am not asking
"what is the best router bit" because it's going to be full of opinion. I
did read a review about bits, but it was mainly with straight cuts, not
panel models.

I still can not find a store where they sell Freud bits? Must be ordered
online? Tomorrow, I am going to Lowies for first time (new store in my
town) to see if they sell Freud. I remember from WW show, there's a brand
called Viper, comments?

Rockler tells me if ANYTHING goes wrong with the Rockler bit, bring it
back to the store. Of course, I mention "wear?" and they said it depends,
but bring it back, we will see about it then. They also have another
brand bits next to the Rockler brand, I THINK it's Amana, boy it's
expensive (talking about TWICE as much), but I am buying router bits to
use it, not for show-and-tell.

I still don't know what is Freud 2+2, except 2+2 obvious would be 4, huh?

It's a $200 investment, except $250 for CMT. I am interested in "3-set".

Chuck

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"CNT" wrote in message
...
Found this when searching on router bits... still couldn't find
Whiteside's own website homepage. Do you know the Whiteside URL?

http://www.whitesiderouterbits.com/


Must say I have not tried whiteside bits ,I but quite a few from highland
hardware which is local for me .Many of thier bits are Amana whitch as far
as I know are US made . I am originally from the UK and know many quality
manufacturers have been taken over by various european consortiums and
generally as I see it most times with a loss of quality in the never ending
quest for more profits .There are few exceptions ,perhaps fords initial
input to Jaguare and definately bmw's imput to the "mini".

As far as carbide is concerned anyone can make quality stuff American asians
you name it . Of course the asians can afford to make quality carbide bits
and make them cheaper simply because of their lower production costs .
However those costs eventually fade dueto higher standards of living and the
consequence of higher aspirations ,take a look at China for instance, a
total metamorphosis in the last 20 years .......mjh

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
CNT wrote:
Only Rockler router bits tell they have 800 grit carbide. I can not find
what Freud or CMT has? Could you tell me?

Chuck


What does 800 grit have to do with a carbide
router bit? You mean it was sharpened with an 800
grit stone?

Recently Rockler opened up in North Atlanta, I went their looking for
hardware last week and to check on the sale of Ashley Isles carving tools .
Regarding the latter they probably are trying to find a cheaper source .

Personally I found generally their quality did not impress me in the least .
As far as hardware is concerned ,and as far as an american quality small
business goes horton brasses in cromwell conn is very hard to beat . Over
the last 30 years I have delt with them they have done nothing but get
better and better...mjh

Amana is made in Israel.

"mike hide" wrote in message
...



Must say I have not tried whiteside bits ,I but quite a few from highland
hardware which is local for me .Many of thier bits are Amana whitch as far
as I know are US made .

Leon says...

We don't need the jobs, 10,000,000 ilegal's from Mexico prove that. We
simply need to realize that what we want to be paid is more than the job is
worth.

Please, spare us the right wing condescension. Jobs pay according to
labor supply and demand, just like anything else. If the owner of a
chicken slaughterhouse can get illegals to do the job for $6/hr, then he
isn't going to pay an American $12/hr for the same job. If there
weren't illegals, the jobs would pay more. It isn't rocket science. I
have watched entire industries where wages are lower now than they were
20 years ago, and now it is all Mexicans doing the jobs. If we need
them so much, then why do we still have unemployment? If you look at
the border counties of Texas and Arizona, unemployment rates are sky
high and I've looked at unemployment rates for the counties in my own
state and see the same thing. Wherever there is a rising tide of
immigrants, unemployment rates are much higher.

"Hax Planx" wrote in message
.net...
Leon says...

We don't need the jobs, 10,000,000 ilegal's from Mexico prove that. We
simply need to realize that what we want to be paid is more than the job
is
worth.

Please, spare us the right wing condescension. Jobs pay according to
labor supply and demand, just like anything else. If the owner of a
chicken slaughterhouse can get illegals to do the job for $6/hr, then he
isn't going to pay an American $12/hr for the same job. If there
weren't illegals, the jobs would pay more.

Only if you were willing to pay double for you groceries. Probably not.



It isn't rocket science. I
have watched entire industries where wages are lower now than they were
20 years ago, and now it is all Mexicans doing the jobs.

And now those industries are better off paying a fair wage.


If we need
them so much, then why do we still have unemployment?

I suspect because many people do not want to work for less than they "think"
that htey should be paid.

If you look at
the border counties of Texas and Arizona, unemployment rates are sky
high

Well duh!. Border states have the most border patrol officers. If illegals
stayed in those states or along the border they would be deported. Hense
there are not enough people to fill lower paying jobs.


and I've looked at unemployment rates for the counties in my own
state and see the same thing. Wherever there is a rising tide of
immigrants, unemployment rates are much higher.

Illegals don't file for unemployment. Typically those that think that they
are better than the average worker file for unemployment.

Symetrical. The problem was that the shanks were bent. Strange but
true--on two different types of Viper bits. I managed to get a core box
bit from them that runs true. It will be the only Viper in my collection.

Dave

mike hide wrote:

"David" wrote in message
...

On run-out: The only bits I've used that had run-out were Vipers. Two
out of three bits purchased more than a year apart. I stay away from
Vipers just like Woodline.


Again we are talking runout presumably with bits with two symetrical cutting
edges .Are we also talking "runout" with a single assymetric cutting edge
bits ...mjh

"George H Hughes" wrote in
news:bHqhe.16624$aB.13578@lakeread03:

How long do you expect to use a router bit. They flat do not last
forever. In my opinion that must be considered. Sharpening, I don't
know about that. A little proper honing done correctly is ok. But
sharpening would depend on the thickness of the carbide.
Also hard means brittle and thus chipping as mentioned. I personally
say away from the real hard carbide.....
George


Ask your sawblade sharpening service about resharpening router bits, and
let that help guide your decisions.

Mine sells and sharpens Whiteside, focused at the commercial market. If
you have to send them 'out', the economics shift somewhat.

Patriarch

On Sat, 14 May 2005 16:37:45 -0700, David wrote:

Symetrical. The problem was that the shanks were bent. Strange but
true--on two different types of Viper bits. I managed to get a core box
bit from them that runs true. It will be the only Viper in my collection.

Same problem with the Menard's "Tool Shop" line. The carbide is fine,
as far as I could tell, but the shanks will bend if you take too big a
bite with them.

Dave

mike hide wrote:

"David" wrote in message
...

On run-out: The only bits I've used that had run-out were Vipers. Two
out of three bits purchased more than a year apart. I stay away from
Vipers just like Woodline.


Again we are talking runout presumably with bits with two symetrical cutting
edges .Are we also talking "runout" with a single assymetric cutting edge
bits ...mjh



Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

Leon says...

Only if you were willing to pay double for you groceries. Probably not.

But labor is only a fraction of the cost. The increase would be much
less than double, and I don't think the universe would implode if we had
to pay 75¢ instead of 50¢ per pound for chicken.

And now those industries are better off paying a fair wage.

How so? It hasn't done jack to stop the move of manufacturing to China.

I suspect because many people do not want to work for less than they "think"
that htey should be paid.

And I'll bet that number includes you. People who work for the wages
you think they deserve can't afford woodworking tools.


Well duh!. Border states have the most border patrol officers. If illegals
stayed in those states or along the border they would be deported. Hense
there are not enough people to fill lower paying jobs.

That's just wrong on so many levels, I don't have the time to go into
them all. But the short version is that many illegals do stay in the
border counties at least for a while as can be seen by the huge Hispanic
majorities in those counties.

Illegals don't file for unemployment. Typically those that think that they
are better than the average worker file for unemployment.

Wrong again. It is citizens and legal residents who recently lost their
jobs. Nobody can get unemployment on a whim.

"Hax Planx" wrote in message
.net...
Leon says...

Only if you were willing to pay double for you groceries. Probably not.

But labor is only a fraction of the cost. The increase would be much
less than double, and I don't think the universe would implode if we had
to pay 75¢ instead of 50¢ per pound for chicken.

It is well documented that the worker is the single most expensive cost to
production. Not only does the employeer have to pay higher wages, if there
is still a retirement plan that costs the employeer more, social security
costs the employeer mor, and insurance costs the employeer more to name a
few.



And now those industries are better off paying a fair wage.

How so? It hasn't done jack to stop the move of manufacturing to China.

That is influnced by the share holders an entirely different aspect.
Perhaps if the American worker got paid what he was really worth the jobs
would still be here.


I suspect because many people do not want to work for less than they
"think"
that htey should be paid.

And I'll bet that number includes you. People who work for the wages
you think they deserve can't afford woodworking tools.

Absolutely not. I retired at 40, 10 years ago making a respectable salery.
For the last 10 years I have been self employeed and make about 1/3 of my
previous salary. I knew that going in and have no problem with that.
Additionally I live within my meens and am debt free. If you have a brain
and money sence you can get by with a compeditive salary.

So, I shouldn't buy Whiteside? LOLOLOL just kidding LOLOLOL

Chuck

"CNT" wrote in message
...
So, I shouldn't buy Whiteside? LOLOLOL just kidding LOLOLOL

Chuck

It's a good bit Chuck, but probably not the absolute best. LOL

CNT wrote in :


I am trying to compare and analyze different router bits.

I think it would be possible to reach consensus on the attributes that
make up a quality router bit. Not sure if anyone's done that yet. But
seems to me there would be columns in the Excel spreadsheet that talk
about aspects of the carbide, the shank, the bearing, the coating, etc.


Then you could try to weight the columns and then objectively assign
scores to each column for each bit. Do some arithmetic and determine
"best".




Me? I think that would be overanalyzing.

I'd try two other approaches:

(1) what do other, ostensbily impartial, parties think?
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworki...w00045_sb2.asp

Or (2) - assume there's some significant correlation between quality and
price due the a variety of factors, including the number of players in
the market. Then let your budget be the guide.


I have a few Rockler's, one Woodline, one PC, a couple CMT. The rest are
Whiteside and Infinities.

Frankly, I think my technique is still worse that the bit - said another
way, any problems I have are likely my fault, not due to the bit.