Every time I try to rough out a bowl with my big roughing gouge it catches
and takes big chunks out. And I cant ever seem to rub the bevel.
Is it the angle (45-50°) or should I not use roughing gouge on bowls?
Cheers
Mick Lehmann
(green turner)

Mick
I think you have the wrong tool although there are some folks, myself
included at various times, who use a roughing gouge on bowls. I think you
need a bowl gouge or an Oland tool. There are sections on my web site that
will take you through from the log to the bowl.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

"Michael Lehmann" wrote in message
...
Every time I try to rough out a bowl with my big roughing gouge it catches
and takes big chunks out. And I cant ever seem to rub the bevel.
Is it the angle (45-50°) or should I not use roughing gouge on bowls?
Cheers
Mick Lehmann
(green turner)



Depends on how you're using it. Though a distinct minority, users of the
roughing gouge for convex cuts generally do so because it produces a fine
finish for them. You do, of course, have to approach the piece properly.
http://personalpages.tds.net/~upgeor...20Pictures.htm Shows how to
apply a roughing gouge safely.

http://personalpages.tds.net/~upgeor...oth%20edge.htm and the following
page show what it can do.

I think I measured the grind angle at around 45 once, which is not to say it
is the same now. I judge my grind not by a measure, but by the shavings
produced.

Michael:

Clearly some people do use a roughing gouge on bowls but it is not for
beginners as you have discovered.

I really think that you ought to get some instruction before you hurt
yourself. Or, if that is not possible, at least read some good books or
get a video. You don't seem to have any idea of how to approach the
work, what tools to use and the proper sequence of operations.

There is some risk in woodturning but you are maximizing it with your
approach to it, I think.

Bill

Michael Lehmann wrote:
Every time I try to rough out a bowl with my big roughing gouge it catches
and takes big chunks out. And I cant ever seem to rub the bevel.
Is it the angle (45-50°) or should I not use roughing gouge on bowls?
Cheers
Mick Lehmann
(green turner)

Michael Lehmann wrote:
Every time I try to rough out a bowl with my big roughing gouge it catches
and takes big chunks out. And I cant ever seem to rub the bevel.
Is it the angle (45-50°) or should I not use roughing gouge on bowls?

Generally speaking a roughing gouge is used for spindle turning, and
though George has demonstrated that it can be used for bowl work, I
would second Bills caution for anyone who doesn't thoroughly understand
what they are taking on.

I think that there are two things that should be reiterated for any
beginners who want to emulate George's technique. First there are two
types of roughing gouge, deep (near U-shape) and shallow (more crescent
like). I think it is the latter which George is using, though one photo
showing the bevel angle does seem to be a deep gouge. Second, is the
fact that George has ground back the sides of the bevel so that they
don't catch.

My guess is that Michael's roughing gouge is a deep fluted beast with a
straight across grind. I would advise against using that anywhere near a
bowl until you understand better how to cut wood on a lathe.

There are two fundamental problems that have to be understood and overcome.
(1)the ends of the bevel need to be kept away from the wood. If they
suddenly touch the wood, the forces on the tool suddenly change which
you cannot control and a catch results.
(2)that the more cutting edge there is in contact with the wood, the
more force you have to be able to counter. A roughing gouge has a very
large radius (compare it to the bottom of the flute on a bowl gouge) and
so a lot of contact can be made. If this leads to a force which is
difficult to control and can rapidly lead to the dangerous situation (1)
described above.

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/

"Bill Rubenstein" wrote in message

I really think that you ought to get some instruction before you hurt
yourself. Or, if that is not possible, at least read some good books or
get a video. You don't seem to have any idea of how to approach the work,
what tools to use and the proper sequence of operations.

Please edify a newcomer, Bill. I've never used a roughing gouge on a bowl,
but I don't understand why it would be much different, apart from the angle
at which the gouge approaches the material. What is the difference? And
thanks for tolerating a novice's ignorance.

Max

I'll just add that the wide radius of the roughing gouge can mean that
often the part of the tool in contact with the wood can be quite a ways
off to the side of the support point on the tool rest which significantly
increases the torque you must counteract to maintain control. Generally
speaking, smaller tools are easier to learn to control than larger tools.
The tradeoff is that work proceeds more slowly and the likelihood of
chatter increases with long tool overhangs. A typical bowl gouge is well
engineered to give you the best of both worlds - a deep flute allows you
to remove a lot of waste in a hurry and it has enough beef to minimize the
tendency to flex. The strong point of a roughing gouge is for truing up
spindle blanks, it excels at that, and experts can do a lot more with it,
but few use it for bowls, and then usually only on the outside, rarely for
hollowing the interior. A 3/8" swept back (wings ground back to 45
degrees from vertical) bowl gouge is a good starter size for someone new
to turning, and you will find it is a dandy tool for roughing and shaping
a lot of spindle work - week pots and hollow forms and such. I think it
is the generally most useful tool to own unless you focus mainly on fine
detail work.

-mike paulson, fort collins, co

Two gouges on the bevel page, Derek. One is the 1 1/4 deep U, the other is
a 1" forged, which will remove wood almost as quickly, but has a relief
(fingernail) and curvature in two directions to keep safe from catches, even
when working inside a bowl. I actually have a third, a Sorby 35mm which you
may see at upper left at
http://personalpages.tds.net/~upgeor...ugh%20Page.htm , smoothing
the face and beginning the hollowing process. It is also double relieved,
but at 35 mm it's a bit big for use inside on any but the largest diameter
work. It will also remove wood rapidly.

The key is never to give away leverage by allowing the gap between toolrest
and work to exceed maybe 1/2", and the ABC method, where the tool is firmly
_Anchored_ to the rest, after which the heel of the _Bevel_ is steadied
against the work before the handle is rotated to begin the _Cut_ .

Since I also shear my work versus stabbing it - see the twisted shavings -
there's almost _zero_ gouge pressure. As a demonstration of how the rest
takes the pressure - OK, showing off - I will often continue the cut
single-handed once the curl is established. Doesn't matter which hand,
either.

"Derek Andrews" wrote in message
...

I think that there are two things that should be reiterated for any
beginners who want to emulate George's technique. First there are two
types of roughing gouge, deep (near U-shape) and shallow (more crescent
like). I think it is the latter which George is using, though one photo
showing the bevel angle does seem to be a deep gouge. Second, is the
fact that George has ground back the sides of the bevel so that they
don't catch.

My guess is that Michael's roughing gouge is a deep fluted beast with a
straight across grind. I would advise against using that anywhere near a
bowl until you understand better how to cut wood on a lathe.

There are two fundamental problems that have to be understood and
overcome.
(1)the ends of the bevel need to be kept away from the wood. If they
suddenly touch the wood, the forces on the tool suddenly change which
you cannot control and a catch results.
(2)that the more cutting edge there is in contact with the wood, the
more force you have to be able to counter. A roughing gouge has a very
large radius (compare it to the bottom of the flute on a bowl gouge) and
so a lot of contact can be made. If this leads to a force which is
difficult to control and can rapidly lead to the dangerous situation (1)
described above.

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/

In article ktsGd.101533$dv1.46015@edtnps89,
"Darrell Feltmate" wrote:

Mick
I think you have the wrong tool although there are some folks, myself
included at various times, who use a roughing gouge on bowls. I think you
need a bowl gouge or an Oland tool. There are sections on my web site that
will take you through from the log to the bowl.

I would agree, I have a variety ranging from the tools with a v shaped
flute to the hamlet gouges I use now, I'd say start with a 1/2 bowl
gouge, and I've found the steeper the grind the easier it is to get used
to, as if you accidentaly stab at the wood (instead of smoothly bring
the tool into contact, say if you hit a dent in the toolrest) it is less
likely to become a massive catch.
one of the biggest advantages with the bowl gouge is that you don't have
the corners far outside the center, since its ground out of round bar it
is much less easy to catch, and easier to ride out a catch if one occurs.
if you think about rolling a log, its a lot easier to roll it when you
have a lever that sticks far out past the center, then when you have to
turn it with your bare hands.
I have used a roughing gouge on bowls but I find it almost impossible to
control.
(and besides sharpening a bowl gouge takes less effort so its win win
there.)
I second Mr. Feltmate's suggestion, his website is excellent and I use
many of the ideas(for sharpening jigs, oland tools etc)

--

Maybe I'm just a pessimist and am totally wrong; I could live quite
happily with that.
-SATAN
Sane people are just lunatics in denial.
_Delta Nine

Thanks Darrell
I only used the roughing gouge for a short time. Too many catches and the
bowl gouge was much kinder on the wood in that regard.
I will have a crack at making one of those wooden nuts on your web page when
I get hold of the right tap.
Cheeers
Mick Lehmann
"Darrell Feltmate" wrote in message
news:ktsGd.101533$dv1.46015@edtnps89...
Mick
I think you have the wrong tool

Ok, I can do that.

Most roughing gouges are forged and they have a small tang which is
driven into the handle. Take a look at the small amount of metal which
is showing at the handle. And, it is usually tapered so it gets smaller
as it goes deeper into the handle. This is a definite point of weakness
-- with a bad catch it will break at the handle and will become a flying
ninja whatever. The best advice for a novice is -- NEVER use a roughing
gouge on bowl work -- it is a spindle tool where the forces are much less.

Bill

Maxprop wrote:
"Bill Rubenstein" wrote in message


I really think that you ought to get some instruction before you hurt
yourself. Or, if that is not possible, at least read some good books or
get a video. You don't seem to have any idea of how to approach the work,
what tools to use and the proper sequence of operations.


Please edify a newcomer, Bill. I've never used a roughing gouge on a bowl,
but I don't understand why it would be much different, apart from the angle
at which the gouge approaches the material. What is the difference? And
thanks for tolerating a novice's ignorance.

Max

Another thought...

I grind my roughing gouge differently from most folks -- I grind the
sides back. No trick to it, I just grind longer on the wings than in
the middle and eventually the shape changes to what I want.

Why? It has nothing to do with catches. If I use the center of the
gouge it works the same as anybody else's. If I roll it over to say 2
o'clock or 10 o'clock and keep the handle perpendicular to the axis of
the lathe (and rub the bevel), I get a shearing cut. Try it and you'll see.

Bill

Bill Rubenstein wrote:
Ok, I can do that.

Most roughing gouges are forged and they have a small tang which is
driven into the handle. Take a look at the small amount of metal which
is showing at the handle. And, it is usually tapered so it gets smaller
as it goes deeper into the handle. This is a definite point of weakness
-- with a bad catch it will break at the handle and will become a flying
ninja whatever. The best advice for a novice is -- NEVER use a roughing
gouge on bowl work -- it is a spindle tool where the forces are much less.

Bill

Maxprop wrote:

"Bill Rubenstein" wrote in message


I really think that you ought to get some instruction before you hurt
yourself. Or, if that is not possible, at least read some good books
or get a video. You don't seem to have any idea of how to approach
the work, what tools to use and the proper sequence of operations.



Please edify a newcomer, Bill. I've never used a roughing gouge on a
bowl, but I don't understand why it would be much different, apart
from the angle at which the gouge approaches the material. What is
the difference? And thanks for tolerating a novice's ignorance.

Max

Hi Michael

Yes you can use a wrench to hit a nail, but it's best to use the tools
for what they where designed for, especially when you are still learning.
A roughing gouge is a wonderful spindle turning tool, for turning square
wood into a cylinder, there's non better, for hollowing bowl blanks,
there is the bowl gauge, and can you use the one for the other ??
Find another wood turner to show you, or a wood turners club, if non
available than a video and or book.
Wood working tools can hurt you, a wood lathe can kill you.
Have a look at Darrell Feltmate's web site, he's done a lot of work to
get all kinds of ideas and help for new as well as experienced wood turners

http://www.aroundthewoods.com

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

Michael Lehmann wrote:

Every time I try to rough out a bowl with my big roughing gouge it catches
and takes big chunks out. And I cant ever seem to rub the bevel.
Is it the angle (45-50°) or should I not use roughing gouge on bowls?
Cheers
Mick Lehmann
(green turner)

"Bill Rubenstein" wrote in message

Ok, I can do that.

Most roughing gouges are forged and they have a small tang which is driven
into the handle. Take a look at the small amount of metal which is
showing at the handle. And, it is usually tapered so it gets smaller as
it goes deeper into the handle. This is a definite point of weakness --
with a bad catch it will break at the handle and will become a flying
ninja whatever. The best advice for a novice is -- NEVER use a roughing
gouge on bowl work -- it is a spindle tool where the forces are much less.

I've never liked big roughing gouges for exactly the reasons you state
above. While I've never had one rip out of or break off a handle, I'm fully
aware it could. As a result I tend to hold the gouge with my right hand
overlapping the part of the handle that contains the tapered tang. That may
not be too smart a thing to do, in case it would happen to catch and break
the handle, but somewhere in the back of my mind it seems like it would
support that zone better. I turned a baseball bat from maple recently, and
when finished with the roughing chore, the tang on my 1/2" spindle gouge
seemed loose in the handle. I'll probably replace the handle entirely,
rather than attempt to tighten it.

Max

Hi Max

Max why don't you get the P&N roughing gouge if you are not trusting the
tang on the one you have.
The P&N has a 1/2" shank, you can make or buy a handle and also use it
for your 1/2" spindle gouge, it's no fun working if you are afraid
something is not safe, doesn't matter if it is or isn't.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

Maxprop wrote:

"Bill Rubenstein" wrote in message


Ok, I can do that.

Most roughing gouges are forged and they have a small tang which is driven
into the handle. Take a look at the small amount of metal which is
showing at the handle. And, it is usually tapered so it gets smaller as
it goes deeper into the handle. This is a definite point of weakness --
with a bad catch it will break at the handle and will become a flying
ninja whatever. The best advice for a novice is -- NEVER use a roughing
gouge on bowl work -- it is a spindle tool where the forces are much less.


I've never liked big roughing gouges for exactly the reasons you state
above. While I've never had one rip out of or break off a handle, I'm fully
aware it could. As a result I tend to hold the gouge with my right hand
overlapping the part of the handle that contains the tapered tang. That may
not be too smart a thing to do, in case it would happen to catch and break
the handle, but somewhere in the back of my mind it seems like it would
support that zone better. I turned a baseball bat from maple recently, and
when finished with the roughing chore, the tang on my 1/2" spindle gouge
seemed loose in the handle. I'll probably replace the handle entirely,
rather than attempt to tighten it.

Max

Yes it is a deep fluted, straight groung beast of a thing.about 40mm across.
I have another that's about 25mm with the same straight grind, should I
change that on one or the other?

My guess is that Michael's roughing gouge is a deep fluted beast with a
straight across grind. I would advise against using that anywhere near a
bowl until you understand better how to cut wood on a lathe.

I would also assume that I shouldn't go anywhere near a bowl with a skew.

Mick Lehmann

Mick wrote
I would also assume that I shouldn't go anywhere near a bowl with a skew.

Mick
Amen to that unless you plan on using the skew as a scraper. Using it as a
skew is a great way to get a catch that should scare you half to death.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

"Michael Lehmann" wrote in message
...
Yes it is a deep fluted, straight groung beast of a thing.about 40mm
across.
I have another that's about 25mm with the same straight grind, should I
change that on one or the other?

My guess is that Michael's roughing gouge is a deep fluted beast with a
straight across grind. I would advise against using that anywhere near a
bowl until you understand better how to cut wood on a lathe.

I would also assume that I shouldn't go anywhere near a bowl with a skew.

Mick Lehmann


Well, you've seen the reaction of the "strict constructionists." The
operation is in the name of the tool.

Back to basics, where you consider that a gouge is a curved edge on a stick.
The argument that the tang is not adequate is from someone who must be
violating the second rule of turning - keep the toolrest close. Those who
speak of accidental rotation due to dents on the toolrest have apparently
violated rule two in the past, resulting in a dent, and are not guiding on
the bevel in the present. If you don't violate the rules, you can use the
tools.

In reality, if you're roughing toward the headstock, as in the information I
referenced yesterday, the tool is safe, keeps the load off your arm by
directing it to the toolrest, removes wood rapidly even on an underpowered
lathe, and produces a smooth surface. Finishing cuts with the roughing
gouge can be made with the vertical component of the "U" as if with the
skew.

Assuming you are a man with good sense, you can certainly see that the tips
of the U are never in any danger of contacting convex work when they're
rotated toward you, projecting above the centerline of the piece into empty
air, and/or trailing the cut in empty air as you skew from lesser to greater
diameter. That being so, use the tool, following the ABCs of turning.
Don't let others' stories of misuse deter you from experimentation, just
remember that they are examples of what _not_ to do.

The bevel angle on a roughing gouge should be around 33 degrees - too flat
an you catch too steep and you do not cut much.

You can use the roughing gouge to rough out the bowl blank - it might feel
like you are getting your teeth rattled, but you can do it.

The better alternative is the use your bowl gouge and approach the wood from
the base of the bowl to the rim cutting the wood across the grain instead of
straight on - this will reduce tear out and make the whole experience of
turning a bowl much more enjoyable.

Ray


"Michael Lehmann" wrote in message
...
Every time I try to rough out a bowl with my big roughing gouge it catches
and takes big chunks out. And I cant ever seem to rub the bevel.
Is it the angle (45-50°) or should I not use roughing gouge on bowls?
Cheers
Mick Lehmann
(green turner)

I have broken 3 roughing gouges - take it from me - these things are not
very strong!

So, I bought one of the new Patience Roughing gouges from Australia the
Woodcraft is selling - the tang is round and about 1/4 inch thicker than the
flat ones - lets see if that one holds up!

Ray


"Bill Rubenstein" wrote in message
m...
Ok, I can do that.

Most roughing gouges are forged and they have a small tang which is driven
into the handle. Take a look at the small amount of metal which is
showing at the handle. And, it is usually tapered so it gets smaller as
it goes deeper into the handle. This is a definite point of weakness --
with a bad catch it will break at the handle and will become a flying
ninja whatever. The best advice for a novice is -- NEVER use a roughing
gouge on bowl work -- it is a spindle tool where the forces are much less.

Bill

Maxprop wrote:
"Bill Rubenstein" wrote in message


I really think that you ought to get some instruction before you hurt
yourself. Or, if that is not possible, at least read some good books or
get a video. You don't seem to have any idea of how to approach the
work, what tools to use and the proper sequence of operations.


Please edify a newcomer, Bill. I've never used a roughing gouge on a
bowl, but I don't understand why it would be much different, apart from
the angle at which the gouge approaches the material. What is the
difference? And thanks for tolerating a novice's ignorance.

Max

I'm relatively new to turning. Would it not be possible to re-grind
the gouge to a higher angle (45-60 deg) then use the roughing gouge as
a bowl gouge?

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 00:49:53 GMT, Bill Rubenstein
wrote:

Another thought...

I grind my roughing gouge differently from most folks -- I grind the
sides back. No trick to it, I just grind longer on the wings than in
the middle and eventually the shape changes to what I want.

Why? It has nothing to do with catches. If I use the center of the
gouge it works the same as anybody else's. If I roll it over to say 2
o'clock or 10 o'clock and keep the handle perpendicular to the axis of
the lathe (and rub the bevel), I get a shearing cut. Try it and you'll see.

Bill

I do the same thing, (2 & 10), but could not have formed that good of
a description of why/how.. good job, Bill!



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:49:25 +1000, "Michael Lehmann"
wrote:

Every time I try to rough out a bowl with my big roughing gouge it catches
and takes big chunks out. And I cant ever seem to rub the bevel.
Is it the angle (45-50°) or should I not use roughing gouge on bowls?
Cheers
Mick Lehmann
(green turner)


Mick...
Bite the bullet and get a mid-range set of bowl turning chisels..

I tend to get cheap when I see the price of turning accessories... and
have to remind myself how much I have invested in saw blades, router
bits, drill bits, etc... and that this is no different that putting
boards together... to do it right and well, good tools are important..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Ray, I'm preaching to the choir but someone in the pews may not have
heard the sermon:

Salvage your 3 broken roughing gouges and any unbroken continental types
by brazing or welding a length of 1/2" CRS bar to about 2" of the flute
and long enough for a replacement tang that's strong & safe.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"Leo Van Der Loo" wrote in message

Hi Max

Max why don't you get the P&N roughing gouge if you are not trusting the
tang on the one you have.
The P&N has a 1/2" shank, you can make or buy a handle and also use it for
your 1/2" spindle gouge, it's no fun working if you are afraid something
is not safe, doesn't matter if it is or isn't.

I really need to do something about my spindle gouges. They are cheap
Harbor Freight tools, bought ostensibly to take the brunt of my lack of
grinding/sharpening/honing skills. Not a problem any longer, since I
purchased a Wolverine system, and I really want to replace them with quality
tools. Thanks for your suggestion. My bowl gouges, scrapers, and skews are
all top quality tools.

Max

In article UyNGd.96767$nN6.15765@edtnps84,
"Darrell Feltmate" wrote:

Mick wrote
I would also assume that I shouldn't go anywhere near a bowl with a skew.

Mick
Amen to that unless you plan on using the skew as a scraper. Using it as a
skew is a great way to get a catch that should scare you half to death.

I did that quite a few times before I spent the money to buy a book that
explained why not, anyone else have a skew end up hitting the ceiling?

--

Maybe I'm just a pessimist and am totally wrong; I could live quite
happily with that.
-SATAN
Sane people are just lunatics in denial.
_Delta Nine

Arch

I give the broken tools to a fellow who does just that - he then gives them
to a woodworking program for the handicapped - I do not weld and do not feel
comfy with a repaiered tool - I am pretty rough on my tools and have felt
the sting of a broken chunk of steel too many times - I would be
anticipating the sting on a welded tool and probably not be as aggressive as
I normally am if the tool is not 100%. That is why I bought the P/N gouge -
cost more, but looks much stronger

Keep preaching!

Ray


"Arch" wrote in message
...
Ray, I'm preaching to the choir but someone in the pews may not have
heard the sermon:

Salvage your 3 broken roughing gouges and any unbroken continental types
by brazing or welding a length of 1/2" CRS bar to about 2" of the flute
and long enough for a replacement tang that's strong & safe.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I did that quite a few times before I spent the money to buy a book that
explained why not, anyone else have a skew end up hitting the ceiling?


Does flying out the window compare?
Ricky

"Ricky Dietsch" wrote in message
k.net...

I did that quite a few times before I spent the money to buy a book that
explained why not, anyone else have a skew end up hitting the ceiling?


Does flying out the window compare?
Ricky
=========================
Ricky,
It only counts if it went THROUGH the window! :-) There are several posters
who have told of sticking a skew in a ceiling or rafter. Luckily, I have a
metal roof !

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

Hi Ken

Does that mean that now on a clear night, you can see the moon and stars
when you look up, in your shop at night ??

Ken Moon wrote:
) There are several posters
who have told of sticking a skew in a ceiling or rafter. Luckily, I have a
metal roof !

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

"Leo Van Der Loo" wrote in message
...
Hi Ken

Does that mean that now on a clear night, you can see the moon and stars
when you look up, in your shop at night ??
=======================

Only thru a couple of small elongated holes!!

Ken