This long and strong (strained) post is meant to be a can opener for
your ideas on things that seem to mean different things to different
turners. I don't particularly care if my take is valid or even makes
sense to you. To save rcw from M15, please post your views on invention,
form, design, production and promotion of new and unique tools and
turnings, whether handy or arty.


Engineers are used to dealing with these steps in bringing something new
to the market so they have a clear understanding, but as a woodturner I
confuse design with invention. I can confuse form with either invention
or design, but the difference is more often understood. Production and
promotion are usually distinct, but all of these steps depend on each
other. How do you see them?


Consider my story about a vase that an old time turner imagined. He
thought it up and figured out how to make it while keeping it useful and
attractive. He made it then showed it to his friends. He explained its
usefulness and extolled its beauty. Then he offered to sell some more
like it to everyone he had gotten excited about his unique vase.


The vase had pierced vertical walls that overlapped and partially
wrapped around each other. It had a narrow opening at the top and was
turned inside out. The shape was both eccentric and off axis. It was
true to the golden mean and the rule of thirds. It was sometimes used
to hold flowers and sometimes it held popcorn. At other times it was
proudly displayed as a work of art. Many buyers were persuaded to want
one and for a while those who could afford it bought one.
*****************************************

His imagination in conceiving this new vase was invention.


His thinking about how it could be made and made useful and pleasing to
the senses was design.


He bent some tool tips and bravely hollowed out the vase's insides
helped by a device to contain and control the tools. He did this thru a
small opening. He turned the outside in an eccentic off axis chuck Then
he cut it into quarters, rotated them and turned the object inside out.
He sliced the walls, boiled them and let the plastic edges overlap. He
drilled tiny holes all over the vase. He stuck a contrasting collar
around the opening and threaded it for screwing on a tasteful slender
finial. This was production, but it was enabled by design which was
fathered by invention.


Down thru the years some ambitious turners rediscovered the work of this
old timer and they upgraded and popularized many of his forgotten ideas.
This is promotion, altho some claim it's invention.


His useful and artistic vase almost didn't make it to market. Why?
Groups aren't usually pleased with new ideas, especially from a
newcomer. He had just joined a guild so his invention wasn't encouraged.
However it was received very well by the publlc. Why? He had learned
an important lesson for turners with new ideas. He had the self
confidence and stick-to-it-ness to pursue a fresh idea that others
criticized and disparaged. He knew not to copy and keep on making the
same ole vase that everybody was cranking out. And he knew enough to
tell it on the mountain with a self assured, loud and authoritative
voice.

This is common sense.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

I do find myself in envy of people with those skills. I can imitate,
and add a few things to it, but my mind just doesn't see things that
way. I still find the unbroken curves of a plain simple bowl
beautiful. When artists start talking about lines and details that
will draw your eye to a point or feature, I just can't see it. Maybe I
am too practical. If I had $30,000 to spend, I would have bid on the
Frank Studall and Bin Pho vase that was auctioned off at the AAW
Symposium in Portland. I can appreciate the artistry and skill, but
can only imitate it. Perhaps I should try, just to see what comes out.
I may surprise myself.

As far as M15 goes, I thought he had gone, but no such luck. Perhaps a
moderator is needed to keep him from ruining this forum.

robo hippy

On Aug 26, 1:34 pm, (Arch) wrote:
This long and strong (strained) post is meant to be a can opener for
your ideas on things that seem to mean different things to different
turners. I don't particularly care if my take is valid or even makes
sense to you. To save rcw from M15, please post your views on invention,
form, design, production and promotion of new and unique tools and
turnings, whether handy or arty.

Engineers are used to dealing with these steps in bringing something new
to the market so they have a clear understanding, but as a woodturner I
confuse design with invention. I can confuse form with either invention
or design, but the difference is more often understood. Production and
promotion are usually distinct, but all of these steps depend on each
other. How do you see them?

Consider my story about a vase that an old time turner imagined. He
thought it up and figured out how to make it while keeping it useful and
attractive. He made it then showed it to his friends. He explained its
usefulness and extolled its beauty. Then he offered to sell some more
like it to everyone he had gotten excited about his unique vase.

The vase had pierced vertical walls that overlapped and partially
wrapped around each other. It had a narrow opening at the top and was
turned inside out. The shape was both eccentric and off axis. It was
true to the golden mean and the rule of thirds. It was sometimes used
to hold flowers and sometimes it held popcorn. At other times it was
proudly displayed as a work of art. Many buyers were persuaded to want
one and for a while those who could afford it bought one.
*****************************************

His imagination in conceiving this new vase was invention.

His thinking about how it could be made and made useful and pleasing to
the senses was design.

He bent some tool tips and bravely hollowed out the vase's insides
helped by a device to contain and control the tools. He did this thru a
small opening. He turned the outside in an eccentic off axis chuck Then
he cut it into quarters, rotated them and turned the object inside out.
He sliced the walls, boiled them and let the plastic edges overlap. He
drilled tiny holes all over the vase. He stuck a contrasting collar
around the opening and threaded it for screwing on a tasteful slender
finial. This was production, but it was enabled by design which was
fathered by invention.

Down thru the years some ambitious turners rediscovered the work of this
old timer and they upgraded and popularized many of his forgotten ideas.
This is promotion, altho some claim it's invention.

His useful and artistic vase almost didn't make it to market. Why?
Groups aren't usually pleased with new ideas, especially from a
newcomer. He had just joined a guild so his invention wasn't encouraged.
However it was received very well by the publlc. Why? He had learned
an important lesson for turners with new ideas. He had the self
confidence and stick-to-it-ness to pursue a fresh idea that others
criticized and disparaged. He knew not to copy and keep on making the
same ole vase that everybody was cranking out. And he knew enough to
tell it on the mountain with a self assured, loud and authoritative
voice.

This is common sense.

Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter

http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Adaptation:

Bought some cool spalted Red Elm at our club meeting. As I started
Production of my idea of Form and Design I kept revealing cracks.

I'm still Adapting to the Opportunity.

TomNie


"Arch" wrote in message
...
This long and strong (strained) post is meant to be a can opener for
your ideas on things that seem to mean different things to different
turners. I don't particularly care if my take is valid or even makes
sense to you. To save rcw from M15, please post your views on invention,
form, design, production and promotion of new and unique tools and
turnings, whether handy or arty.


Engineers are used to dealing with these steps in bringing something new
to the market so they have a clear understanding, but as a woodturner I
confuse design with invention. I can confuse form with either invention
or design, but the difference is more often understood. Production and
promotion are usually distinct, but all of these steps depend on each
other. How do you see them?


Consider my story about a vase that an old time turner imagined. He
thought it up and figured out how to make it while keeping it useful and
attractive. He made it then showed it to his friends. He explained its
usefulness and extolled its beauty. Then he offered to sell some more
like it to everyone he had gotten excited about his unique vase.


The vase had pierced vertical walls that overlapped and partially
wrapped around each other. It had a narrow opening at the top and was
turned inside out. The shape was both eccentric and off axis. It was
true to the golden mean and the rule of thirds. It was sometimes used
to hold flowers and sometimes it held popcorn. At other times it was
proudly displayed as a work of art. Many buyers were persuaded to want
one and for a while those who could afford it bought one.
*****************************************

His imagination in conceiving this new vase was invention.


His thinking about how it could be made and made useful and pleasing to
the senses was design.


He bent some tool tips and bravely hollowed out the vase's insides
helped by a device to contain and control the tools. He did this thru a
small opening. He turned the outside in an eccentic off axis chuck Then
he cut it into quarters, rotated them and turned the object inside out.
He sliced the walls, boiled them and let the plastic edges overlap. He
drilled tiny holes all over the vase. He stuck a contrasting collar
around the opening and threaded it for screwing on a tasteful slender
finial. This was production, but it was enabled by design which was
fathered by invention.


Down thru the years some ambitious turners rediscovered the work of this
old timer and they upgraded and popularized many of his forgotten ideas.
This is promotion, altho some claim it's invention.


His useful and artistic vase almost didn't make it to market. Why?
Groups aren't usually pleased with new ideas, especially from a
newcomer. He had just joined a guild so his invention wasn't encouraged.
However it was received very well by the publlc. Why? He had learned
an important lesson for turners with new ideas. He had the self
confidence and stick-to-it-ness to pursue a fresh idea that others
criticized and disparaged. He knew not to copy and keep on making the
same ole vase that everybody was cranking out. And he knew enough to
tell it on the mountain with a self assured, loud and authoritative
voice.

This is common sense.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 16:34:53 -0400, (Arch) wrote:

This long and strong (strained) post is meant to be a can opener for
your ideas on things that seem to mean different things to different
turners.

snip

As for form, I've found that if you want folks to fondle your work, it has to
have the right shape.. IMO, no fondling, no sale.. It's a touchy-feely market..

I think that Bill Grumbine nailed it in his bowl turning DVD: Classic shapes are
still the ones in demand because what worked then still appeals to us...
His examples of most classic shapes imitating fruit is very true.. YMWV


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Engineers are used to dealing with these steps in bringing something new
to the market so they have a clear understanding, but as a woodturner I
confuse design with invention. I can confuse form with either invention
or design, but the difference is more often understood. Production and
promotion are usually distinct, but all of these steps depend on each
other. How do you see them?

Arch, you are not alone in your confusion. Let's start with engineers.
Engineering is basically applied mathematics. Aesthetic concepts like form,
color, contrast, composition, line and flow are not in their vocabulary. It is
Industrial Designers who create, ideate, and begin the process of making a new
product and taking it to market. Various disciplines might be employed along the
way including engineers, but not always.

Consider my story about a vase that an old time turner imagined...
His imagination in conceiving this new vase was invention.

Nope. What he did was called 'design' or 'craft.' It was not invention.
Invention is the creation of a new material, process, or product with unique
feature not yet produced. A popcorn bowl cum vase is at best, a 'object de
art.'

He bent some tool tips and bravely hollowed out the vase's insides
helped by a device to contain and control the tools.

Now, if his device was new, novel and did something other tool holders did not
do, then THIS is an invention!

Invention is a creative process and not confined to any particular profession.
Engineers are not more likely to invent something than designers, physicians,
housepainters, or clerks.

Dan

Hi Dan, Thanks for your response and for getting what I was trying to
say even tho I had it wrong. I can see that you are right. As I read
your post I see my mistake. I was thinking in terms of the the ole
timer's bowl being unique and therefore his conceiving it would be
invention.

As I described it, it was not unique. It was just a very different
popcorn bowl or art work. The first bowl ever conceived was the
invention, what the old timer did was design. If I still have it wrong,
please explain further. TIA


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Dan,

You ain't no engineer - are you? :-) You have stereotyped engineers
very well, but very incorrectly. I will concede that, maybe in large
organizations, there is such a division of tasks that the actual
engineering of a product starts after a hand-off from a designer. As
an engineer for the last 21 years in manufacturing, advanced
manufacturing, production, product development, product design and
product realization, I can tell you that there are many extremely
creative engineers who range from awesome design to hardcore nuts and
bolts.

A great design serves many customers: end user, manufacturing
personnel, service personnel, the environment, and purchasers. The
engineers who currently work for me are cognizant of all of their
constituents.

Invention is a different animal. As you say, invention is the process
of coming up with a completely original idea - practical or not. This
is difficult for a lot of people because too many of us tend to think
of invention as ONLY hugely novel ideas. Invention can be subtle
creativity too. With my team, I struggle to get my people to realize
that even small ideas are worthy of notice.

Joe Fleming - San Diego



On Aug 27, 8:04 pm, (Arch) wrote:
Hi Dan, Thanks for your response and for getting what I was trying to
say even tho I had it wrong. I can see that you are right. As I read
your post I see my mistake. I was thinking in terms of the the ole
timer's bowl being unique and therefore his conceiving it would be
invention.

As I described it, it was not unique. It was just a very different
popcorn bowl or art work. The first bowl ever conceived was the
invention, what the old timer did was design. If I still have it wrong,
please explain further. TIA

Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter

http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Thanks Robo, Mac and Dan for sustaining a thread that I had hoped would
raise some Q&A's re how we view the steps leading to the arrival of
'new' woodturning products, both tools and turnings.


Thanks Joe, your take shows your usual acute perceptions as a woodturner
plus your insights as an experienced engineer.

There seems to be consensus about what "invention" means. Do any of you
think "design" is rather loosely used by woodturners. IOW, what does
"design" mean to woodturners? To me, it means figuring out ways to
actually turn something novel into a pleasing completed piece. Or if
not novel, then figuring a novel way to turn a well known form might
also be "design"......or is that innovation? Maybe this is just another
useless inquiry about how many angels can dance on the tip of a needle.
Naw! Their dancing is a production.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings