I talked with four knowledgable people about what is and isn't
a properly sharpened fingernail ground bowl gouge. One said
hollow ground is preferred. One said hollow ground was a no-no.
One said the Tormek produced hollow ground edge that was
polished inside and out on leather strops was as close to perfect
a cutting edge as you can get. Another said shiny polished
surfaces don't necessarily mean "sharp". One well known and
respected turner sent me over to the JoolTool lady to get a
"real" sharp edge. The resulting bevel had a slightly convex
curved bevel which another very experienced turner deemed
undesirable because the curved bevel made it more difficult
to "ride the bevel".

One said the fingernail was too long for a new turner,
another said it was about right and one said it should
be a bit longer.

One said the angle of the fingernail was too shallow, another
said if was about right and yet another said it was
too steep.

Seems sharpening is a Tower of Babble thing, everyone
having their own preference - and justification for why
their preference is better than any other. There is
no doubt some underlying physics and geometry that
determines the correct combination. There also
appears to be many ways for a turner to compensate
for grinds and sharpenings which are less than ideally
perfect and still get the same quality of turned surface.

Unlike bench chisels and hand planes with their sharpening
and use, turning tools have a significantly wider range
of useable grinds and angles and a lot more ways to use
them and still get pretty much the same results.

Now I've heard it said that a new turner should start
off with lessons from a good turning instructor BEFORE
developing some bad habits which must then be unlearned.
But given the many ways to skin a cat, if the results are
about the same, doesn't seem to matter how you get
them.

Of course there are some hard and fast No-Nos which
have more to do with avoiding catches and/or dodging
flying wood and/or tool. But most of the rest is
often a matter of personal preference.

charlie b

"charlie b" wrote in message
...


Seems sharpening is a Tower of Babble thing, everyone
having their own preference - and justification for why
their preference is better than any other. There is
no doubt some underlying physics and geometry that
determines the correct combination. There also
appears to be many ways for a turner to compensate
for grinds and sharpenings which are less than ideally
perfect and still get the same quality of turned surface.


Perhaps it's time to discard the words "ideal" and "perfect" in favor of
simply "sharp?"

I've often said that when I am capable of using the edge produced by a jig
with anywhere near the precision it was produced I'd get one. So far the
only thing that comes close are laser or pattern guided captured tools. And
they don't do as well as an educated hand and a turner's eye at producing a
smooth surface.

Charlie
The use of a sharp tool is to cut wood. I think that is an obvious statement
but it bears saying. A turner presents the tool to the wood so that the tool
cuts wood. No two turners are alike. I, for instance, am shorter and stouter
than most, or at least shorter. Suit people call me "executive" sized. My
stand at the lathe is different from a David Ellsworth who looks to be a
little lighter than I and about a foot taller. So we present tools a little
differently, not much but a little. So the sharpening angle might be a
little different. Bevels may be a tad different.
Remember that in most cases the word "perfect" means "it works for me."
Relax, sharpen to an edge that works, and turn.

Hello Charlie,

You've just discovered why there are so many tools and so many ways to
sharpen them. Every expert has a bit different way to sharpen their
tools and in many cases special tools that no one else uses. Why?
Because the tools and the sharpening method they use works for them.
There is no right or wrong method, only what works or doesn't work for
you.

I have three sharpening set ups in my shop:

1. An 8" slow speed grinder from Woodcraft with a Wolverine Grinding
jig set up on it. It does an excellent job of shapening most of my
tools and I suppose I use it most because it is closest to my lathe.
Before I got this system about 7 years ago, I sharpened my tools free
hand or with a Robert Sorby Fingernail Gouge jig. After I purchased the
Robert Sorby jig, I realized that a sharpening jig was so much easier
to get consistent sharpening. The experts who claim that sharpening
free hand is best, really mean it works for them and they don't want to
be tied to using a jig. This is especially true for demonstrators who
never know what form of sharpening system will be available during a
demonstration.

2. A 6" high speed grinder with coarser wheels and a Kelton Grinding
Jig set up on it. I did have a Woodcut jig on it, but I've been trying
out the Kelton Jig since I got it a couple of months ago. The Woodcut
is an excellent jig and has fewer pieces to do the job.

2. A Tormek with the woodturning sharpening package. I sharpen my bowl
gouges on this grinder and I believe it produces the sharpest edge of
all of the systems that I have. Not only the sharpest edge, but also
the longest lasting edge. I've never run any scientific tests to prove
that, but is seems to give the sharpest edge and the longest lasting
edge. Tormek has become easier to set up with the new TTS-100 Setter
that just became available.

The AAW has produced a video by four well known turners showing how
each of them sharpen their tools. For a beginner, this is a good video.
For an experienced turner who still has problems sharpening his tools,
this is a good video.

For my bowl gouges, I use the Ellsworth grind or something close to it.
I actually have the Ellsworth jig, which I use with the Wolverine jig
with a small block of wood to raise the level high enough to fit the
Ellsworth instructions. You can also grind the Ellsworth shape on the
Tormek with the proper set up.

Alan Batty, who uses a lot of hard woods, says that a 45 degree bevel
angle is best for all tools cutting hard woods. That is for skew
chisels and spindle gouges. I personally use about a 30 degree bevel
and sometimes a 20 degree bevel. My spindle gouges all have swept back
wings like the Ellsworth or Irish grind and I find they work best for
me. Does that mean it is right for you, not unless it works for you as
well as it works for me.

I've gone to the Utah Woodturning Symposium every years since 1997,
attended a number of the AAW annual symposiums, and many other local
symposiums and special demonstrations by well known turners. Everyone
of the demonstrators use a slightly different grind on their tools or
slightly different tools. So whoever you take a class from will tell
you what is best, because that is what they use and it works for them.

Good luck with your search for the perfect grind, when you find it it
will be what works for you. Then you can say this is the only grind
that should be used.

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com

charlie b wrote:
I talked with four knowledgable people about what is and isn't
a properly sharpened fingernail ground bowl gouge. One said
hollow ground is preferred. One said hollow ground was a no-no.
One said the Tormek produced hollow ground edge that was
polished inside and out on leather strops was as close to perfect
a cutting edge as you can get. Another said shiny polished
surfaces don't necessarily mean "sharp". One well known and
respected turner sent me over to the JoolTool lady to get a
"real" sharp edge. The resulting bevel had a slightly convex
curved bevel which another very experienced turner deemed
undesirable because the curved bevel made it more difficult
to "ride the bevel".

One said the fingernail was too long for a new turner,
another said it was about right and one said it should
be a bit longer.

One said the angle of the fingernail was too shallow, another
said if was about right and yet another said it was
too steep.

Seems sharpening is a Tower of Babble thing, everyone
having their own preference - and justification for why
their preference is better than any other. There is
no doubt some underlying physics and geometry that
determines the correct combination. There also
appears to be many ways for a turner to compensate
for grinds and sharpenings which are less than ideally
perfect and still get the same quality of turned surface.

Unlike bench chisels and hand planes with their sharpening
and use, turning tools have a significantly wider range
of useable grinds and angles and a lot more ways to use
them and still get pretty much the same results.

Now I've heard it said that a new turner should start
off with lessons from a good turning instructor BEFORE
developing some bad habits which must then be unlearned.
But given the many ways to skin a cat, if the results are
about the same, doesn't seem to matter how you get
them.

Of course there are some hard and fast No-Nos which
have more to do with avoiding catches and/or dodging
flying wood and/or tool. But most of the rest is
often a matter of personal preference.

charlie b

any shape that works for you is good. any shape that does not work is bad.
Remember that with a hand held tool (as opposed to a machine tool), you will
quickly learn to adjust the tool presentation to find the sweet spot and it
will cut as well as it is going to - hollow versus not hollow won't matter
(honest) - having a seriously wrong shape will matter (it's really hard to
hollow a bowl with a spindle gouge - I have the dent in my ceiling due to
that discovery) - as long as the tool makes curly shavings and not dust,
it's cutting - dont' sweat it.


"charlie b" wrote in message
...
I talked with four knowledgable people about what is and isn't
a properly sharpened fingernail ground bowl gouge.

big snip ----------



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"William Noble" wrote in message
.. .
any shape that works for you is good. any shape that does not work is
bad. Remember that with a hand held tool (as opposed to a machine tool),
you will quickly learn to adjust the tool presentation to find the sweet
spot and it will cut as well as it is going to - hollow versus not hollow
won't matter (honest) - having a seriously wrong shape will matter (it's
really hard to hollow a bowl with a spindle gouge - I have the dent in my
ceiling due to that discovery) - as long as the tool makes curly shavings
and not dust, it's cutting - dont' sweat it.

Obviously it's in the grind, not the name. "Spindle" gouges with
fingernails are just shallow-grind "bowl" gouges, and cut the same way. No
fingernail takes a lot of patience, ask the guy who had no other back when.

Even "bowl" gouges aren't ground the way they were when I began, and you'd
hardly recognize them as the functional descendant of the "long and
strong" - a name I prefer - gouges that reached inside in the past.

That's where the real babble begins, narrowing and renaming like so many
government agencies to try and convince the unknowing that there's really
only one tool for one job like in machine shops.

This is (mostly) hand work, as Bill says. Less your supercontrolled and
laser guided hollowing rigs, that is.