With spindle turning it's obviously the shape.

But when you get to vessels, even just weed pots,
the choices broaden a bit. So
- do you go for a particular shape/form and avoid
figured woods because they can detract from the
form?
or
- do you start with an interesting figured wood
and evolve a shape that exploits the grain pattern
and contrasts?

I'm asking 'cause I've got some english walnut
branches that are either all sapwood, or english
walnut is pretty bland fine grained creamed
color wood. Lacking any grain pattern to
chase/follow, I'm finding I'm having to come
up with a clean, pleasing shape. That's
more difficult to do than letting the grain
pattern/contrasts lead the way (and hide
less than perfect transitions in the form).

Still avoiding poking a sharp tool into the
end grain, even at 500 rpms.

charlie b

Charlie,

I think you already have it figured. If there is something interesting
in the wood, work to a shape that exploits it. If the wood is very
uniform, focus on a pleasing form. Therefore, with what you have at
hand, it's time to practice making pretty shapes. If necessary, do a web
search for woodturning and look at what others have done to see what
appeals to you. When in doubt check out Grecian and Roman vessels. I
think it was Bob Stocksdale that said the Greeks and Romans had been
stealing his ideas for 2000 years...

I also just got some walnut that is almost all sapwood. There is 2" to
4" of heartwood in the middle of a 16" log. I started with a simple
natural edge bowl because the dark bark contrasts nicely with the creamy
wood. I also cored out a couple of nesting utility bowl sets that will
be curing for the next several months before I finish turn them. Of the
remaining pieces I am thinking of blanking out some hollow forms I can
embellish with pen and ink ala David Nittmann and maybe a cowboy hat.
Otherwise, generally pedestrian turnings.

What's the problem with poking a sharp tool into end grain? It sure
beats poking a dull tool into end grain. Just start at dead center with
a spindle gouge and work out.

Good luck,
David
http://www.wademade.net

charlie b wrote:
With spindle turning it's obviously the shape.

But when you get to vessels, even just weed pots,
the choices broaden a bit. So
- do you go for a particular shape/form and avoid
figured woods because they can detract from the
form?
or
- do you start with an interesting figured wood
and evolve a shape that exploits the grain pattern
and contrasts?

I'm asking 'cause I've got some english walnut
branches that are either all sapwood, or english
walnut is pretty bland fine grained creamed
color wood. Lacking any grain pattern to
chase/follow, I'm finding I'm having to come
up with a clean, pleasing shape. That's
more difficult to do than letting the grain
pattern/contrasts lead the way (and hide
less than perfect transitions in the form).

Still avoiding poking a sharp tool into the
end grain, even at 500 rpms.

charlie b

Shape is king IMO. If you can make a pleasing shape that enhances the grain
pattern then you've really won. Consider what the piece is going to look
like 10 yrs from now when the obvious grain pattern isn't so obvious. Also a
clunky piece with pretty grain is still a clunky piece.
Billh

"charlie b" wrote in message
...
With spindle turning it's obviously the shape.

But when you get to vessels, even just weed pots,
the choices broaden a bit. So
- do you go for a particular shape/form and avoid
figured woods because they can detract from the
form?
or
- do you start with an interesting figured wood
and evolve a shape that exploits the grain pattern
and contrasts?

I'm asking 'cause I've got some english walnut
branches that are either all sapwood, or english
walnut is pretty bland fine grained creamed
color wood. Lacking any grain pattern to
chase/follow, I'm finding I'm having to come
up with a clean, pleasing shape. That's
more difficult to do than letting the grain
pattern/contrasts lead the way (and hide
less than perfect transitions in the form).

Still avoiding poking a sharp tool into the
end grain, even at 500 rpms.

charlie b

Well Bill, every time I give this answer, I get raised eyebrows. "THE
WOOD TELLS ME (not verbally) what it wants to be! It does it by what is
revealed as I turn the wood. I turn bowls, boxes, pens, kaleidoscopes,
Magic wands, and free forms.

The Other Bruce
================================================== ==========================
billh wrote:
Shape is king IMO. If you can make a pleasing shape that enhances the grain
pattern then you've really won. Consider what the piece is going to look
like 10 yrs from now when the obvious grain pattern isn't so obvious. Also a
clunky piece with pretty grain is still a clunky piece.
Billh

"charlie b" wrote in message
...
With spindle turning it's obviously the shape.

But when you get to vessels, even just weed pots,
the choices broaden a bit. So
- do you go for a particular shape/form and avoid
figured woods because they can detract from the
form?
or
- do you start with an interesting figured wood
and evolve a shape that exploits the grain pattern
and contrasts?

I'm asking 'cause I've got some english walnut
branches that are either all sapwood, or english
walnut is pretty bland fine grained creamed
color wood. Lacking any grain pattern to
chase/follow, I'm finding I'm having to come
up with a clean, pleasing shape. That's
more difficult to do than letting the grain
pattern/contrasts lead the way (and hide
less than perfect transitions in the form).

Still avoiding poking a sharp tool into the
end grain, even at 500 rpms.

charlie b

Other Bruce,
I wouldn't disagree at all with the wood speaking to you and we should all
be listening for what is being said. My comment is that I would try to
utilize what I heard with a focus on a good shape. I think an example of
that is the colored laminated Dymondwood for pens. The smooth traditional
pen shape doesn't bring out the colored-layers at all but varying diameters
do. I would try and find a pleasing shape that brings out the layers but
would still look good if the pen were suddenly sprayed flat-black.
Billh

wrote in message
ups.com...
Well Bill, every time I give this answer, I get raised eyebrows. "THE
WOOD TELLS ME (not verbally) what it wants to be! It does it by what is
revealed as I turn the wood. I turn bowls, boxes, pens, kaleidoscopes,
Magic wands, and free forms.

The Other Bruce
================================================== ==========================
billh wrote:
Shape is king IMO. If you can make a pleasing shape that enhances the
grain
pattern then you've really won. Consider what the piece is going to look
like 10 yrs from now when the obvious grain pattern isn't so obvious.
Also a
clunky piece with pretty grain is still a clunky piece.
Billh

"charlie b" wrote in message
...
With spindle turning it's obviously the shape.

But when you get to vessels, even just weed pots,
the choices broaden a bit. So
- do you go for a particular shape/form and avoid
figured woods because they can detract from the
form?
or
- do you start with an interesting figured wood
and evolve a shape that exploits the grain pattern
and contrasts?

I'm asking 'cause I've got some english walnut
branches that are either all sapwood, or english
walnut is pretty bland fine grained creamed
color wood. Lacking any grain pattern to
chase/follow, I'm finding I'm having to come
up with a clean, pleasing shape. That's
more difficult to do than letting the grain
pattern/contrasts lead the way (and hide
less than perfect transitions in the form).

Still avoiding poking a sharp tool into the
end grain, even at 500 rpms.

charlie b

I guess that I have trouble hearing the wood talking. Certainly at
times beautiful figure and color in wood should play a part in
dictating form, but not at the expense of good form itself. Good form
will determine the ultimate success of any bowl or vessel.

Wally



billh wrote:
Other Bruce,
I wouldn't disagree at all with the wood speaking to you and we should all
be listening for what is being said. My comment is that I would try to
utilize what I heard with a focus on a good shape. I think an example of
that is the colored laminated Dymondwood for pens. The smooth traditional
pen shape doesn't bring out the colored-layers at all but varying diameters
do. I would try and find a pleasing shape that brings out the layers but
would still look good if the pen were suddenly sprayed flat-black.
Billh

wrote in message
ups.com...
Well Bill, every time I give this answer, I get raised eyebrows. "THE
WOOD TELLS ME (not verbally) what it wants to be! It does it by what is
revealed as I turn the wood. I turn bowls, boxes, pens, kaleidoscopes,
Magic wands, and free forms.

The Other Bruce
================================================== ==========================
billh wrote:
Shape is king IMO. If you can make a pleasing shape that enhances the
grain
pattern then you've really won. Consider what the piece is going to look
like 10 yrs from now when the obvious grain pattern isn't so obvious.
Also a
clunky piece with pretty grain is still a clunky piece.
Billh

"charlie b" wrote in message
...
With spindle turning it's obviously the shape.

But when you get to vessels, even just weed pots,
the choices broaden a bit. So
- do you go for a particular shape/form and avoid
figured woods because they can detract from the
form?
or
- do you start with an interesting figured wood
and evolve a shape that exploits the grain pattern
and contrasts?

I'm asking 'cause I've got some english walnut
branches that are either all sapwood, or english
walnut is pretty bland fine grained creamed
color wood. Lacking any grain pattern to
chase/follow, I'm finding I'm having to come
up with a clean, pleasing shape. That's
more difficult to do than letting the grain
pattern/contrasts lead the way (and hide
less than perfect transitions in the form).

Still avoiding poking a sharp tool into the
end grain, even at 500 rpms.

charlie b

wrote:

Well Bill, every time I give this answer, I get raised eyebrows. "THE
WOOD TELLS ME (not verbally) what it wants to be! It does it by what is
revealed as I turn the wood. I turn bowls, boxes, pens, kaleidoscopes,
Magic wands, and free forms.



What it wanted to be was a Tree.

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 21:41:30 GMT, Lobby Dosser
wrote:

wrote:

Well Bill, every time I give this answer, I get raised eyebrows. "THE
WOOD TELLS ME (not verbally) what it wants to be! It does it by what is
revealed as I turn the wood. I turn bowls, boxes, pens, kaleidoscopes,
Magic wands, and free forms.



What it wanted to be was a Tree.

Not mine...they kept saying, "Cut me, cut me."

Maybe that was Rocky...

--
Chuck *#:^)
chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply.


September 11, 2001 - Never Forget

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

I turn a lot of firewood. Even on spindle turning (since I'm not usually
making actual spindles, but objects turned in "spindle mode") I have to
start with "what can I get from this piece of wood", once I've roughed
it to remove bark/split faces, and cut in far enough to remove
end-checking. If that does not happen to include the general class of
object I'm after (mallet, rolling pin, awl handle, top...) then I set
the roughed round aside for later use on something it fits and chuck up
more firewood until I can get whatever today's project is. If there's
excess, I might also set aside (or change what I'm making) if I have a
known need for something longer or larger, or I just make whatever I'm
making, and leave the "waste" as large as is convenient for re-use later
on smaller projects.

The form needs to work for the job it's doing, but where that comes out
of can be altered by available wood and figure in a particular piece of
wood, at least to the extent that it is evident when deciding where to
work from.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Interesting discussion. I guess I pretty much follow Michael O'Donnel's
ideas (I think his two books are a must for any serious woodturner). He
starts with an idea, he and his wife will then do a whole series of
sketches, and then finds the wood to fit the idea. He truly sees wood
as a medium, like clay, that is molded to our ideas that come from our
artisitic creativity.

Plain woods are used for bowls or vessels but usually get embellished
with painting, carving, etc.

It is very exciting and stimulating to see something in nature or
landscapes or culture and then ask the question, "How can I create a
turned object that captures that essense?" So the answer to "Do you
turn for shape or follow the figure" is neither: I turn to follow a
creative idea.

That said, I seldom truly achieve my goal as I am just beginning to
develop that creative side, but it is fun and exciting.

Earl

Some of you seem to think that it is an either-or kind of decision. If it's
going to turn out to be a really nice piece, your thought processes will
respond to the wood's grain and structure, and, at the same time, will be
directed by the visual shape that is forming before your eyes.

On second thought, I don't think they should properly be called "thought
processes." It's something like improvisation in music or dance. The
reason I feel this is true--when I think too hard I usually do my worst
work.

"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...

I turn a lot of firewood.
I have to
start with "what can I get from this piece of wood", once I've roughed
it to remove bark/split faces, and cut in far enough to remove
end-checking.

Yep. All the drawings and gushing artistic statements in the world won't
make a 10x5" piece of wood into 10x7 like you originally wanted.

Though the creative process begins - for those who don't purchase figured
turning blanks - with where to place the chainsaw, it is limited throughout
by what the wood will allow you to do. Cooperate and succeed, or wish in
one hand....

George, if enough paint, wire and sheet metal is added, a 10X5 can
balloon to an artistic 10X7, but if not done well its voice becomes
cracked and hoarse.

I wish the blanks would speak English to me although a pretty figure
needs no language to evoke a whistle.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Does French walnut speak French? Does Chinese elm speak Cantonese? Is
Silkwood smooth talking? What language does Bolivian rosewood speak?

Wally

I am in bad shape, not only am I deaf but I am artisticaly challanged. I
look at the wood and it dosn't say anything. Maybe I am really a forger.
I have better luck copying things. I acually go into Create and Barrel with
my wife. Now I look at ceramic vases, plates and bowls hopeing that
something will jump off on me. I hear that if you turn off the unesesary
wood what is left is a bowl or vase. I feel in awhaa of someone that throws
a piece of wood on the lathe and a hollow vessel comes out. Maybe if I copy
things long enough I will be able to do that too.

Bruce.......the first??????
wrote in message
ups.com...
Well Bill, every time I give this answer, I get raised eyebrows. "THE
WOOD TELLS ME (not verbally) what it wants to be! It does it by what is
revealed as I turn the wood. I turn bowls, boxes, pens, kaleidoscopes,
Magic wands, and free forms.

The Other Bruce
================================================== ==========================
billh wrote:
Shape is king IMO. If you can make a pleasing shape that enhances the
grain
pattern then you've really won. Consider what the piece is going to look
like 10 yrs from now when the obvious grain pattern isn't so obvious.
Also a
clunky piece with pretty grain is still a clunky piece.
Billh

"charlie b" wrote in message
...
With spindle turning it's obviously the shape.

But when you get to vessels, even just weed pots,
the choices broaden a bit. So
- do you go for a particular shape/form and avoid
figured woods because they can detract from the
form?
or
- do you start with an interesting figured wood
and evolve a shape that exploits the grain pattern
and contrasts?

I'm asking 'cause I've got some english walnut
branches that are either all sapwood, or english
walnut is pretty bland fine grained creamed
color wood. Lacking any grain pattern to
chase/follow, I'm finding I'm having to come
up with a clean, pleasing shape. That's
more difficult to do than letting the grain
pattern/contrasts lead the way (and hide
less than perfect transitions in the form).

Still avoiding poking a sharp tool into the
end grain, even at 500 rpms.

charlie b

Thanks for this interesting and thought provoking thread, Charlie. Keep
'em coming.

I think that all woodturnings are composed of two elements. One is
shape, form, design, concept, message and anything else conceived and/or
crafted by the turner.

The other is flash, figure, grain, weight, and anything else conceived
by the Deity and/or crafted by Nature.

Exposing, embellishing, amplifying, or anything else that affects
Nature's work is not truly creative. It's analogous to my raising a
window shade to enjoy a sunrise. The sunrise was exposed by me, perhaps
even framed, but I certainly did not create nor craft it.

I turn lots of NIP vessels and some are even thought to be quite
handsome. I bask in the compliments, but I try to remember that it's the
unique timber, its branch arrangement, color and figure that matter, not
the form that I made.

I don't mean to gush, this is just my take and I hope it's not too far
off your topic. Anyway, I didn't write "art" or "artist" a single time.



Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Arch wrote:
Exposing, embellishing, amplifying, or anything else that affects
Nature's work is not truly creative.

Arch,

I don't think that is quite true. Maybe I'm being pedantic here, but I
would argue that just about anything we make is creative, whatever it is
made from, and whatever the results.

The artistic merit of such work is more debatable. If one takes a nicely
figured piece of wood and makes a pig's ear out of it, that may be
creative, but not artistic. OTOH making a fine hollow form (say) from a
poorly choosen piece of wood is not going to have as much artisitic
merit as the same piece turned from a carefully selected piece of wood.

Whilst form is of the utmost importance, on its own, it is not enough. A
fine form turned from poplar, painted black and looked at as a
photograph in profile is a great way to learn about form. BUT does the
actual object have any artistc merit? Does the color or texture of the
object not matter? Does the relative scale of the grain versus the
object not matter? I think they do.


--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers
http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners

Hi Arch

The analogy with a sunrise is nice but not really appropriate - with a
sunrise you cannot alter it whereas with a piece of timber you have the
opportunity of enhancing it and showing it's potential beauty or destroy it.
Too many times I've seen wonderful figured timber turned purely for the sake
of it with no thought what so ever for form. In my opinion the two go hand
in hand - you can use beautiful figured wood to great effect but if the
form is not there as well all you have done, putting very bluntly, is
created very ornate fire wood.

--
Mark Hancock
Worcestershire, UK
http://www.markhancock.co.uk
Home tel: +44 (0) 1905 820815
Mobile tel: +44 (0) 7747 195404

Derek & Mark, Good responses. Could be I didn't drink deep enough, but I
did serve as a 'can opener'.

Your posts show how one can point out differences or even errors by
mildly adding or subtracting from another's viewpoint.

Maybe a _Tequila Sunrise might fit each of our opinions and all three
of us could be right.....or wrong.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings