When I wet turn fresh cut wood I usually set it aside until it is dry
and then finish it. But can I do something to totally finish the
outside of a thin-walled wet-turned piece on the day I turn it and
while it is still on the lathe? If so, I would appreciate your exact
recipes please?

Dick

I turned a bowl two days ago out of Silver Maple. I immediately soaked the
bowl
in denatured alcohol for a couple of hours and then let air dry for a couple
of hours.
Then into the microwave for a few 2 minute blasts over a half hour period.
Then I went out and
put on 50% thinned deft. I slathered it on and boy did the warm wood
soak up the deft. Especially the end grain. That dried over night.
Finished sanded it,
sanded the inside smooth, wood burned some lighthouses on the outside and
buffed it.
Then another slathered coat of deft.

There has been no cracks develop yet. It has begun to warp slightly.

We will see.

I went ot a speaker who discussed the alcohol treatment. He said taping
brown paper bags
on the outside of a bowl would force the bowl to dry from the inside out
would
cause the stresses to hold the cracks together. I thought that sealing just
the outside with
lacquer would do the same thing.

We'll see.

I love to turn wet wood but hate to wait the six months for a thick bowl
blank to dry.
I have tried the detergent. Now I have a gallon of soap to use over the
next 50 years.
I have tried the microwave but am too impatient and zap it too much and get
cracks.
I have thick bowls under my lathe drying but want to finish them now.
Now I am doing the alcohol and deft thing.
We'll see.
"Dick" wrote in message
oups.com...
When I wet turn fresh cut wood I usually set it aside until it is dry
and then finish it. But can I do something to totally finish the
outside of a thin-walled wet-turned piece on the day I turn it and
while it is still on the lathe? If so, I would appreciate your exact
recipes please?

Dick

"Dick" wrote in message
oups.com...
When I wet turn fresh cut wood I usually set it aside until it is dry
and then finish it. But can I do something to totally finish the
outside of a thin-walled wet-turned piece on the day I turn it and
while it is still on the lathe? If so, I would appreciate your exact
recipes please?


I set aside, too. Sandpaper fine enough to make me happy about the surface
clogs with wet dust, otherwise.

Since oil and water don't mix, and water-based won't dry until the water's
gone, doesn't make a lot of difference if it dries with or without a
finishing agent applied, and sands easier if it's dry.

You can heat to semi-dry, then run oil into the piece and sand it on the
lathe, making a mess of everything, but the oil will be gummy until the
piece dries anyway.

"Dick" wrote in message
oups.com...
When I wet turn fresh cut wood I usually set it aside until it is dry
and then finish it. But can I do something to totally finish the
outside of a thin-walled wet-turned piece on the day I turn it and
while it is still on the lathe? If so, I would appreciate your exact
recipes please?

Dick

Absolutely. John Jordan, a turner of some note, does this all the time. Do
a Google search on him and see if you can find any details that might help
you. He does have a video available on turning hollow vessels. It will
answer your questions..

--

Regards,
M.J. (Mike) Orr
www.island.net/~morr

Dick wrote:
When I wet turn fresh cut wood I usually set it aside until it is dry
and then finish it. But can I do something to totally finish the
outside of a thin-walled wet-turned piece on the day I turn it and
while it is still on the lathe? If so, I would appreciate your exact
recipes please?

Dick


I turn a lot of wet Aspen. What works well for me is to microwave it
dry. Most of the time I rough it to about 1/2 - 3/4" thickness then
several trips through the micro. Turn the power down to defrost or low
and put it in about 3-4 minutes. You just want it fairly warm, not too
hot to hold. Remove it and allow to cool on a rack so the moisture can
escape all around the piece. Back in the micro when it is cool to the
touch. Don't leave it overnight, or it will dry conventionally and
crack. You have to keep going once you start. Repeat the cycle 4 or 5
times. You will feel it is done when you remove it warm and don't feel
moisture still coming out. Then finish turn and apply whatever finish
you want.

Sometimes I will turn to the final sizes before microwaving, but it is
hard to sand wet wood and it will warp, sometimes quiet interesting, as
it dries.

I've used the micro do dry Aspen, Cottonwood, Elm, Mesquite and Pine all
with excellent results, I think I've had 2 pieces crack out of about 100
that did not.

If SWMBO is not keen on your using the kitchen micro, go to any of the
big box places and buy a new micro. Mine was $29. It also works well
to reheat my coffee that goes cold when I am busy (forget). Warm the
Carnuba wax a few seconds and it is much easier to apply to a piece or a
buff.

Now as to finishing wet on the lathe? Anything I've tried either dulls,
clouds, or both. Sometimes I use BLO and slather it on. It does keep
the piece from cracking, but you won't get a gloss finish. After a few
days of drying, with some warpage, you can hand sand and try buffing.
It does make a nice feeling piece.

If you turn it thin enough you can dry it by sanding, then finish
however. When I've tried this I have not been able to get the base dry
and get cracking.

--
Bill Berglin

"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid
in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly
proclaiming, 'WOW! What A RIDE!!" ... Unknown

Why the rush? If you force the timber to do something it doesn't want to do
naturally it will get it's own back on you eventually. A very well known
turner's work is now doing exactly that - reacting to a drying process done
over 15 years ago.

--
Mark Hancock
http://www.markhancock.co.uk
Home tel: +44 (0) 1905 820815
Mobile tel: +44 (0) 7747 195404
"Dick" wrote in message
oups.com...
When I wet turn fresh cut wood I usually set it aside until it is dry
and then finish it. But can I do something to totally finish the
outside of a thin-walled wet-turned piece on the day I turn it and
while it is still on the lathe? If so, I would appreciate your exact
recipes please?

Dick

when I turn something thin, I usually just spray with lacquer and am done
with it - no problems. by thin, I mean 1/8 inch or less. At that
thickness, there is generally almost no moisture of note in the wood by the
time you are ready to finish.

"Dick" wrote in message
oups.com...
When I wet turn fresh cut wood I usually set it aside until it is dry
and then finish it. But can I do something to totally finish the
outside of a thin-walled wet-turned piece on the day I turn it and
while it is still on the lathe? If so, I would appreciate your exact
recipes please?

Dick

Final sanding and finishing is possible on wet wood, but it isn't easy.
When I do this it is usually on burl pieces where I expedct a LOT of
movement as it drys, and sanding will be implssible after it is dry. If
your cutting and tool work is fine enough, you can start sanding at 180
or 220 grit. When the paper loads up, the rubber cleaning sticks will
remove the build up. The only problem is that you have to clean your
sandpaper more that you do when you are sanding dry wood. I will put on
as much finish as the wood will take in, and wet sand each application
in. When done, I use the air hose to blow off any remaining residue
especially in any voids. This helps reduce the amount of bleed out that
happens with oil finishes. I use Deftoil with urethane resins. This
finish never builds up any kind of gloss, probably because of the water
in the wood, but it does help keep the wood from drying out too
quickly. After the wood is totally dry, and has finished moving, more
finish can be applied to get a surface finish. To buff it out, I take
one of the synthetic steel wool pads, and cut a circle out that fits my
angle drill. It will stay on quite well at lower speeds (hook and loop
pad), and at higher speeds as long as you have some pressure on it.

With utility bowls, I do turn to finish thickness, and let them dry.
After they are done moving, I then sand and finish them. I wouldn't
want to have to sand them without the power sanders. I love the warped
and eccentric shapes, because they look more normal to me.

As far as drying I am still experimenting. I have used the alcohol
bath, LDD, and plain old air drying. I am starting to think that I will
end up going back to air drying. I don't really notice any advantage to
either of the bath methods, except that the LDD bowls do tend to sand
much easier. Success rate is the same for all methods. This could be
because of 2 things. One is that it is rather humid here and when put
on a wire shelf in my shop they dry at a nice slow rate. The other is
that I turn to finish thickness, rather that leave them thick, and then
return to final thickness. The thicker pieces will have more stress,
and problems releasing the stress. This is still an experiment in
progress, and I am still working on it.
robo hippy

Mark,
Who is this "very well known turner" and what work are you referring to?

TomNie

"Mark Hancock" wrote in message
...
Why the rush? If you force the timber to do something it doesn't want to
do
naturally it will get it's own back on you eventually. A very well known
turner's work is now doing exactly that - reacting to a drying process
done
over 15 years ago.

--
Mark Hancock
http://www.markhancock.co.uk
Home tel: +44 (0) 1905 820815
Mobile tel: +44 (0) 7747 195404
"Dick" wrote in message
oups.com...
When I wet turn fresh cut wood I usually set it aside until it is dry
and then finish it. But can I do something to totally finish the
outside of a thin-walled wet-turned piece on the day I turn it and
while it is still on the lathe? If so, I would appreciate your exact
recipes please?

Dick

"robo hippy" wrote in message
ups.com...

As far as drying I am still experimenting. I have used the alcohol
bath, LDD, and plain old air drying. I am starting to think that I will
end up going back to air drying. I don't really notice any advantage to
either of the bath methods, except that the LDD bowls do tend to sand
much easier. Success rate is the same for all methods. This could be
because of 2 things. One is that it is rather humid here and when put
on a wire shelf in my shop they dry at a nice slow rate. The other is
that I turn to finish thickness, rather that leave them thick, and then
return to final thickness. The thicker pieces will have more stress,
and problems releasing the stress. This is still an experiment in
progress, and I am still working on it.

Results are similar because it's still loss of bound water, not anything
done before it, that counts. We older folks who went through PEG and braces
across the center of bowls, for example, did get different results at least.
PEG was a clammy mess, and probably 25% of the braced bowls split.

As you've discovered, thinner deforms less than thicker, though not,
perhaps, as significantly as some think, because all shrinkage is local, and
there's less to grab onto on either side because of the curved shape of the
piece.

Try consulting the radial shrinkage table (or tangential for platters) on
the FPL site or Hoadley, and using it to determine how thin you can turn and
still come back to circularity at the desired wall thickness. If you're
impatient to dry, cut close to the minimum needed. Or add a bit more in
thickness to allow some changes if the shape you roughed isn't precisely the
one you want.

I've got a short stack of ~10" cherry bowls drying now that were roughed at
~3/4, and should give me 1/4 walls plus a bit of redesign room.

George,
Until your comments above, if you had asked me, I would have said that
thinner pieces will move a lot more than thicker pieces. I have noticed
with burl pieces in particular, that when cutting slabs on the bandsaw,
the thin scrap on the last piece cut will have much more distortion
that the thicker slabs. When turning bowls, the thinner ones seem to
have much more distortion. I core all bowls, and the thinnest one of
the set will move the most. With straight grained woods, the amount of
movement seems to be similar. Madrone seems to be most likely to do
this. When cutting dried stock for furniture pieces, the thicker pieces
seem to have more binding and spring than flatter boards. I have always
wondered if this was because of poor drying and/or unusual grain,
and/or unrelieved stresses already in the tree.

"robo hippy" wrote in message
ups.com...
George,
Until your comments above, if you had asked me, I would have said that
thinner pieces will move a lot more than thicker pieces. I have noticed
with burl pieces in particular, that when cutting slabs on the bandsaw,
the thin scrap on the last piece cut will have much more distortion
that the thicker slabs. When turning bowls, the thinner ones seem to
have much more distortion. I core all bowls, and the thinnest one of
the set will move the most. With straight grained woods, the amount of
movement seems to be similar. Madrone seems to be most likely to do
this. When cutting dried stock for furniture pieces, the thicker pieces
seem to have more binding and spring than flatter boards. I have always
wondered if this was because of poor drying and/or unusual grain,
and/or unrelieved stresses already in the tree.


Smaller bowls (cored) mean tighter radius annual rings. The thickness,
though less in absolute dimension, is also greater in proportion to the
circumference, so your observation is pretty well on track. Bowls closer to
the core are also more likely to feature irregular grain patterns from
failed branches and such, thus increasing directional unpredictability.
This is what gets your thin burl pieces moving in seemingly paradoxical
directions sometimes. They've been held in equilibrium against the part you
removed, and seek a new one. They have grown in a cylinder, and you have
created a board, so there will be some stress to relieve.

With bowls the slope of the sides is a major determinant of direction and
magnitude of shrinkage. The more vertical the sides, normally the broader
the bottom, which means that the direction with the larger proportion of
shrinkage, tangential, comes to dominate the radial.

Take a look at http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...tr113/ch03.pdf
figure 3-3, and mentally make your bowl cuts. Remember, however, that
you've taken the middle out of those boards, so as they contract, they pull
less on their fellows, and more on air. Among other things, that's why
bowls don't split inside out. The inside is in constant compression by
drying forces while the outside is in tension, and prone to open. The slope
from rim to bottom also determines why the _average_ radial shrinkage is
rarely exceeded as the piece dries, much less the tangential. Look at that
board center top in the figure, and compare it to your dried bowl blanks.
The rim is higher inside the bowl, and the shorter radius annual rings seem
elevated above the whole by the shrinkage downward into air.

You predict a lot about drying stress by looking at a stud grade 2x4 with
the heart close off one surface and see how much it crowns versus one which
is farther from center, with larger radius annual rings. Often the short
radius stuff will experience drying stress in excess of binding force, and
split. Move the heart from the center of the total width for the worst of
all worlds.

George wrote:

snip

You predict a lot about drying stress by looking at a stud grade 2x4 with
the heart close off one surface and see how much it crowns versus one which
is farther from center, with larger radius annual rings. Often the short
radius stuff will experience drying stress in excess of binding force, and
split. Move the heart from the center of the total width for the worst of
all worlds.

Perhaps the "growth rings as rubber bands" analogy may help convey
the concept. Frank Klausz, a very skilled and experienced furniture
maker and the fastest hand cut dovetails person on the planet, uses
it to orient the grain of dovetailed drawer sides.

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/...ilDrawer3.html

As you can see, the newer growth rings towards the outside of the tree
are "stretched" (in tension) more than the ones towards the inside of
the tree. As they dry they want to "unstretch". That requires that
they
get shorter. The only way for them to do that is if the length they're
stretched gets shorter. But if the "outside" of the board gets
shorter,
the inside has to get longer. Because the "inside rubber bands"
aren't "stretched" much they don't resist the inside gettng longer
much. The result is cupping, with the concaving occuring on the
"outside" face of the board. Now with a bowl or hollow vessel,
when the "concaving" gets too large something has to give. Either
the piece implodes or explodes, the latter manifested as either
one big crack or several smaller ones.

Now with flat boards used in furniture making, you always
allow for likely expansion and contraction by choosing joinery
that will accomodate it and stock selection. Quarter sawn
boards are more stabile and are selected for wide or thick
parts.

Wood will move. In furniture making you can accomodate
it. With turned "hollow forms" accomodating movement
seems a lot trickier. Maybe that's one of the logical
reasons for making segmented pieces.

Still don't understand why bowls. hollow cylinders or
"vases" are so attractive to wood turners. It seems
like spitting in the wind - to me. Granted, they can
be beautiful to look at, and feel But there's a longevity
issue. Will any of today's pieces show up on some
future Antiques Road Show like two and three
hundred year old furniture pieces do - quite regular-
ly? Perhaps some "functional art" should, by its
nature, be transient - like a sunset.

charlie b