I am considering getting a 5/8" Glaser gouge in M4 steel (the lowest of his
3 grades). Anyone noticed that much difference to pay $160 for the V15 or
$135 for the A11 versus only $95 for the M4? I have a 1 hp variable speed
motor and with my 1/2" Crown PM gouge I see a big benefit to sharpening 4+
times on a 12" bowl. I lose cut width if I don't keep it "real sharp". If
I had a 3 hp motor and could plow through the wood, "not bad" would probably
be sharp enough and then maybe the higher grades would keep the edge "not
bad" for longer.

Thoughts?

Derek

Hi Derek, as requested, here's some muddled musings.

I think early on high speed steel (M2 or thereabouts) supplanted high
carbon for gouges mainly due to its freedom from being blued. Sharpening
and grinding were mostly done freehand on gray stones then and loss of
temper was a problem. IIRC, milled flutes on round bar replaced forged
flutes from flat stock about the same time and deep flutes in HSS became
the way to go.

The Superflute gouge made by Taylor was the bellwether, but soon a
variety of flute shapes and depths became available. We all began to
grind the cutting edge back and leading turners lent their names
according to how many mm. they swept the long edges back.

If M2 was good then more expensive alloys should be great and everybody
thought so. It now appears that with the cost and questionable
tradeoffs of these superior steels coupled with the ease of frequent
sharpening, we may be going back to M2 as the consensus workhorse. I've
often wondered if round stock, milled flutes, swept back edges and good
sharpening jigs had existed during high carbon steel's heyday would HSS
been such an advance. Carbon steel tools varied then as much as HSS does
now. Some were very good, many weren't.

Regardless of the steel, except by faith alone we really don't know if a
gouge remains as sharp as it can be until after it's resharpened or
honed. If this is true then we ought to resharpen 'long wearing' edges
as frequently as M2. Since frequent sharpening or honing has been made
quick, easy and effective for everyone, draw your own conclusions re
your need for expensive super steels. For me M2 is best overall and
isn't a compromise.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

In article ,
(Arch) wrote:

That was a very good answer Arch - Thank you from one pondering the
benefits of the more expensive metals.

I wonder if there's any market for excellent quality hi-carbon steel
tools? I know I can make some of my own - and have- but I'd like to find
a 3/4" very shallow gouge in carbon.

"Arch" wrote in message
...
Hi Derek, as requested, here's some muddled musings.
SNIP....

If M2 was good then more expensive alloys should be great and everybody
thought so. It now appears that with the cost and questionable
tradeoffs of these superior steels coupled with the ease of frequent
sharpening, we may be going back to M2 as the consensus workhorse. I've
often wondered if round stock, milled flutes, swept back edges and good
sharpening jigs had existed during high carbon steel's heyday would HSS
been such an advance. Carbon steel tools varied then as much as HSS does
now. Some were very good, many weren't.

Regardless of the steel, except by faith alone we really don't know if a
gouge remains as sharp as it can be until after it's resharpened or
honed. If this is true then we ought to resharpen 'long wearing' edges
as frequently as M2. Since frequent sharpening or honing has been made
quick, easy and effective for everyone, draw your own conclusions re
your need for expensive super steels. For me M2 is best overall and
isn't a compromise.
============================

Arch,
For "store bought" tools you're probably right. For home made tools I prefer
M42 over the M2. Grinding, shaping, etc., are comparable to the M2, but
there is a better sharpness "life" with the M42. In sizes up to 1/2 inch,
there's not enough of a price difference to be a problem. I've ordered from
Cenco Grinding Corp. in Allentown, PA. (www.cencogrinding.com) and have had
good results. Typical Rockwell hardness for M2 is 62-65 RC, M42 is 66-69 RC.
I can make several Oland bits from a 4 inch piece of 1/4" jobber size stock,
or 5 inch piece of 3/8 in. Main difference chemically is that the M42 has
Cobalt and Molydenum and M2 relies on Tungsten for hardness. There's about a
40% wear increase, but there's about that much price difference, so maybe
it's just a matter of personal taste. I haven't tried any of the super
particle compounds yet, so I can't comment on them. Of course I COULD
comment on them, but it would all be hot air (:-))

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

"Derek Hartzell" wrote in message
...
I am considering getting a 5/8" Glaser gouge in M4 steel (the lowest of
his
3 grades). Anyone noticed that much difference to pay $160 for the V15 or
$135 for the A11 versus only $95 for the M4? I have a 1 hp variable speed
motor and with my 1/2" Crown PM gouge I see a big benefit to sharpening 4+
times on a 12" bowl. I lose cut width if I don't keep it "real sharp".
If
I had a 3 hp motor and could plow through the wood, "not bad" would
probably
be sharp enough and then maybe the higher grades would keep the edge "not
bad" for longer.

Thoughts?


I'm sure the purchase of the very best would give you satisfaction, though
it might not improve your cuts directly, especially if you're cutting wood
which dulls a PM tool that rapidly. I have some PM tools - Hamlet - which
work nicely, though I really don't keep track of how long the edge lasts, a
fool's errand anyway, given they're used for different tasks than the other
gouges. It's my impression that their edge gives a cut inferior to my
carbon steel tools, which are now reserved for final passes only, as they're
irreplaceable.

These are impressions, and they are personal, and possibly flawed. A gouge
used for hogging wood doesn't get the respect one used for smoothing the
surface gets. It's a bit like the painters' schools where the master
touches up the work of the grunts, imparting all the magic to the canvas.

More tools is better than fewer tools, in my philosophy. Get a big hogging
gouge or two to take the load off that PM, and you'll learn to love him
more. These are the best overall tools for me
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...30,43164,43175 ,
as they have a long edge which can be used at virtually the same attack
angle. They can hog wood , when supported, as rapidly as my 1" bowl gouge,
and can make a final pass _almost_ as easily as the carbon. Some say as
well, but I'm not willing to concede that yet.

Oh yes, horsepower and such aren't that important. You need enough angular
velocity to peel a shaving, which isn't much when you present the edge
properly. Any more, as I see it, encourages you to use bad angles and dull
gouges. Or worse, you might speed up the lathe, which heats the tools, and
squares the force available to rip the wood every time you double.

Owen, With those powdered and rouged HSS hussies all the rage, I think a
dowdy 3/4 in. shallow carbon steel gouge should be easy to pick up. Old
Sears, etc.

For experimental fun If you have a spare and haven't already tried this,
grind the bevel on the flute side and place the gouge flute side down
flat on the rest and gently pull it for final smoothing. The tangential
curves, tool to blank, are just right for easy catch free shear-cutting.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Hi Ken, Florida hot air is more like a gentle zepher than Texas', so
I'll blow some your way. I agree 100% about cobalt carbides for
inserted bit tools. The bits inserted at an angle are a little hard to
sharpen and the price differential doesn't much matter. (Did I say that?
I'm really out of character)


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

As near as I can tell, the best finish cuts come from a freshly
sharpened gouge. I would give a slight preference to the HSS, but it
isn't a critical difference. I have a variety of gouges in HSS and
other powder metal gouges. The fancy "keeps it's edge 4 times longer"
gouges don't seem to keep the fresh off the grinder edge any longer
than the HSS gouges. They do keep a workable edge longer which is good
for removing a lot of material. Then when you are ready for the finish
cut, use a freshly sharpened gouge. I do like the feel of the Glaser
gouges, and the shock absorbing abilities of the handle. My favorite
handle is one that I made. It takes a bit of experimenting to find out
what works best for you, but fit and feel of the handle can be as
important as the steel.
robo hippy

















George wrote:
"Derek Hartzell" wrote in message
...
I am considering getting a 5/8" Glaser gouge in M4 steel (the
lowest of
his
3 grades). Anyone noticed that much difference to pay $160 for the
V15 or
$135 for the A11 versus only $95 for the M4? I have a 1 hp
variable speed
motor and with my 1/2" Crown PM gouge I see a big benefit to
sharpening 4+
times on a 12" bowl. I lose cut width if I don't keep it "real
sharp".
If
I had a 3 hp motor and could plow through the wood, "not bad" would
probably
be sharp enough and then maybe the higher grades would keep the
edge "not
bad" for longer.

Thoughts?


I'm sure the purchase of the very best would give you satisfaction,
though
it might not improve your cuts directly, especially if you're cutting
wood
which dulls a PM tool that rapidly. I have some PM tools - Hamlet -
which
work nicely, though I really don't keep track of how long the edge
lasts, a
fool's errand anyway, given they're used for different tasks than the
other
gouges. It's my impression that their edge gives a cut inferior to
my
carbon steel tools, which are now reserved for final passes only, as
they're
irreplaceable.

These are impressions, and they are personal, and possibly flawed. A
gouge
used for hogging wood doesn't get the respect one used for smoothing
the
surface gets. It's a bit like the painters' schools where the master
touches up the work of the grunts, imparting all the magic to the
canvas.

More tools is better than fewer tools, in my philosophy. Get a big
hogging
gouge or two to take the load off that PM, and you'll learn to love
him
more. These are the best overall tools for me

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...30,43164,43175
,
as they have a long edge which can be used at virtually the same
attack
angle. They can hog wood , when supported, as rapidly as my 1" bowl
gouge,
and can make a final pass _almost_ as easily as the carbon. Some say
as
well, but I'm not willing to concede that yet.

Oh yes, horsepower and such aren't that important. You need enough
angular
velocity to peel a shaving, which isn't much when you present the
edge
properly. Any more, as I see it, encourages you to use bad angles
and dull
gouges. Or worse, you might speed up the lathe, which heats the
tools, and
squares the force available to rip the wood every time you double.

Owen Lowe wrote:

: I wonder if there's any market for excellent quality hi-carbon steel
: tools? I know I can make some of my own - and have- but I'd like to find
: a 3/4" very shallow gouge in carbon.

You could try:

http://www.diefenbacher.com/


I'm pleased with the carbon steel tools I got from them.

-- Andy Barss

"Andrew Barss" wrote in message
...
Owen Lowe wrote:

: I wonder if there's any market for excellent quality hi-carbon steel
: tools? I know I can make some of my own - and have- but I'd like to find
: a 3/4" very shallow gouge in carbon.

You could try:

http://www.diefenbacher.com/


I'm pleased with the carbon steel tools I got from them.


Thank you. They're on my list, for sure. Amazing what twenty years of
sharpening can take away.