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| UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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Cheapo Power Tools
Hi All
Having been in the industrial equipment market for 30 odd years, can I make a few points about 'cheap' power tools and just why our Chinese friends can make them so cheap. A huge part of the cost of a new product - Bosch with the jigsaw, Skill with the circular saw, is development. Not just the huge cost of developing the tool, but developing the market for it. If you look at the progress of any product in marketing terms the initial sales of a new product will be low - people resist new ideas and it takes time to get new products accepted. You don't make any money at this stage. The sales graph then starts to grow rapidly and this is where you stick on an absolutely huge margin and make mega bucks. Sales will then level off, your margin will drop a little, but is still good and you get steady sales, but no growth. The product is a cash cow in marketing terms. If the margin came under pressure, you could only lower production costs by cutting back on quality of materials. With most products the sales start to decline for various reasons; the product is replaced by new technology (typewriters for example) or it becomes a 'me too' product that everyone is making. Some industries encourage this, the motor trade for one. Dawoo were tarted up Vauxhall Astras. Vauxhall sold the rights & machinery and moved on. Many other industries do the same thing. Italy was the first 'cheap producer' of power tools, compressors, welders, cleaning machines etc because their labour rates were lower. Now look at the Chinese. They only make copies of other peoples products. No product development, no market development, no huge investment whilst waiting for the return, no marketing to create a brand. They don't make original items, they make 'me too' products - often passed on by European manufacturer's who have moved on. Add to that the huge difference in labour rates; monthly wage that compares to a European hourly wage and no wonder they can make stuff cheaply! They don't have to cut material quality to cut costs! Another factor comes in, the rise of the huge retailers and especially the 'hard discounters' like Aldi, Lidl, Netto. These people have major market shares in Europe, but struggle in the UK because of our high brand awareness (read snobbery). Suddenly the retailers can shift the huge volumes the low cost manufacturers need. Simple facts are; that cheap Chinese power tool from Aldi was probably once a top of the range brand manufacturers pride & joy. But due to overheads you will find the same product at different prices. It is now entirely possible to have power tools that are made cheaply but not cheaply made. You may be buying old technology, but there is no reason to suspect inferior quality in every case. Three year warranty a marketing ploy? Possibly. More often that the cost of manufacture in a low wage economy exceeds labour rates and transport costs in a high wage economy. Dave |
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#2
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Magician wrote:
Having been in the industrial equipment market for 30 odd years, can I make a few points about 'cheap' power tools and just why our Chinese friends can make them so cheap. snip background info Yup go along with that. Now look at the Chinese. They only make copies of other peoples products. No product development, no market development, no huge investment whilst waiting for the return, no marketing to create a brand. To be fair they will also OEM good for big name makers to their spec as well. They don't make original items, they make 'me too' products - often passed on by European manufacturer's who have moved on. Add to that the huge difference in labour rates; monthly wage that compares to a European hourly wage and no wonder they can make stuff cheaply! They don't have to cut material quality to cut costs! You are right, you don't *have* to, but that does not mean that you won't. It is also important to remember that for most manufactured products, the lions share of the price you pay in the shops accounts for the distribution an marketing costs and not the cost of making it. Hence even if you far east OEM can slash the production costs by 80%, you may only see a reduction is purchase price of 15% Another factor comes in, the rise of the huge retailers and especially the 'hard discounters' like Aldi, Lidl, Netto. These people have major This is where you start to make real inroads into the overall cost - the distribution part of the deal. market shares in Europe, but struggle in the UK because of our high brand awareness (read snobbery). How long have Aldi, Lidl et al been in the UK though? I certainly have only become aware of them in recent years. Simple facts are; that cheap Chinese power tool from Aldi was probably once a top of the range brand manufacturers pride & joy. But due to overheads you will find the same product at different prices. Yes you will find variations obviously. Can't really speak with certainty for the Aldi tool although I suspect it is the same as a Cosmo version I have used. If that is the case, then: yes it is serviceable, but there is no way you could mistake it for anything that ever claimed to be "top end". I can see your point in some cases... the first router I owned was bought for a specific "one off" job. It was by today's standard what you would call a mid range tool (B&D "WoodWorker", about 70 quid IIRC). It was pants - in many ways. I can well believe that one of the Chinese knock offs of the Elu MOF97 design would be better in terms of performance (even if not in support - you can at least get spares for B&D). In many cases however the low end tool is just that - it is never going to compete with anything that claimed to be high end in the past. I have a wide range of tools - a few top quality items, and a few Chinese imports. Of the low end ones I can only think of one where I could believe this pattern could fit (a 40 quid Axminster "white" reciprocating saw), for most it is blindingly obvious the moment you handle one, followed by anything else mid range or better. (Bought a NuTool detail sander on a whim once - on the grounds that it was a tool I did not have, and thought it may come in handy one day. For a fiver I was not expecting much is has to be said. Having now used it once I can safely say it was well over priced!) It is now entirely possible to have power tools that are made cheaply but not cheaply made. You may be buying old technology, but there is no reason to suspect inferior quality in every case. The logic is fine, but I suspect that greed gets in the way sometimes... i.e. you area retailer and you can can have a decent tool for 20 quid and retail moderate quantities at 100, or a "cheap as we can make it" one for 4 quid and knock out 20 times as many for 25 quid. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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#3
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John Rumm wrote :
I can well believe that one of the Chinese knock offs of the Elu MOF97 design would be better in terms of performance (even if not in support - you can at least get spares for B&D). The problem being that B&D spares costs often approach the cost of complete replacement anyway. -- Regards, Harry (M1BYT) (L) http://www.ukradioamateur.org |
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#4
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"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Magician wrote: Having been in the industrial equipment market for 30 odd years, can I make a few points about 'cheap' power tools and just why our Chinese friends can make them so cheap. snip background info Yup go along with that. Now look at the Chinese. They only make copies of other peoples products. No product development, no market development, no huge investment whilst waiting for the return, no marketing to create a brand. To be fair they will also OEM good for big name makers to their spec as well. They don't make original items, they make 'me too' products - often passed on by European manufacturer's who have moved on. Add to that the huge difference in labour rates; monthly wage that compares to a European hourly wage and no wonder they can make stuff cheaply! They don't have to cut material quality to cut costs! You are right, you don't *have* to, but that does not mean that you won't. It is also important to remember that for most manufactured products, the lions share of the price you pay in the shops accounts for the distribution an marketing costs and not the cost of making it. Hence even if you far east OEM can slash the production costs by 80%, you may only see a reduction is purchase price of 15% Another factor comes in, the rise of the huge retailers and especially the 'hard discounters' like Aldi, Lidl, Netto. These people have major This is where you start to make real inroads into the overall cost - the distribution part of the deal. market shares in Europe, but struggle in the UK because of our high brand awareness (read snobbery). How long have Aldi, Lidl et al been in the UK though? I certainly have only become aware of them in recent years. Aldi and Lidl are huge. Look at the Aldi web site. There are in most Euro countries, USA, Aus, etc. They have "big" buying power. Have a look at the wines. £3 for an award winning wine. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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Doctor Evil wrote:
Aldi and Lidl are huge. Look at the Aldi web site. There are in most Euro countries, USA, Aus, etc. They have "big" buying power. Have a look at the wines. ï½£3 for an award winning wine. I appreciate they are big on a global scale, but the question was how long have they been present in the UK? They certainly don't have anything like the quantity or scale of outlets of any of the other supermarkets / diy sheds as yet. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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"John Rumm" wrote in message ... Doctor Evil wrote: Aldi and Lidl are huge. Look at the Aldi web site. There are in most Euro countries, USA, Aus, etc. They have "big" buying power. Have a look at the wines. ?3 for an award winning wine. I appreciate they are big on a global scale, but the question was how long have they been present in the UK? They certainly don't have anything like the quantity or scale of outlets of any of the other supermarkets / diy sheds as yet. Note the words "buying power". _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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Doctor Evil wrote:
I appreciate they are big on a global scale, but the question was how long have they been present in the UK? They certainly don't have anything like the quantity or scale of outlets of any of the other supermarkets / diy sheds as yet. Note the words "buying power". How does that answer the question? -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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#9
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Rob Morley wrote:
Aldi has been in the UK since the late 80s. Share of Grocery Market:12 weeks to April 25 2004 Tesco 27.5% Asda 16.6% Sainsbury's 15.5% Morrisons/Safeway 14.4% Somerfield/Kwik Save 5.8% Co-ops 5.1% Waitrose 3.2% Aldi 2.1% Iceland 2% Lidl 1.8% Netto 0.6% Budgens 0.4% Ah, that is more like it... To go back to the original point, I don't see that Aldi et al can rest on a "brand awareness" (or snobbery) argument as explanation for their lack of market penetration. Let's face it, John Lewis have far more credibility in this respect with Waitrose but still don't have significant market share either. The big buying power of the smaller players is important from the point of view of keeping prices low, but UK consumers seem far more sophisticated in this respect now, and long since gave up buying on price alone. That used to be Tesco's model (pile high, sell cheap, don't worry too much about the quality), but even they gave up on that idea by the mid 60's (and started gaining market share when they did). Aldi etc. are probably better off for qty of premises etc than the likes of Tesco were after 15-20 years trading (in their current form). The main difference however will be that they are trying to expand in a market where there is stiff competition from entrenched players which is rather different from the situation faced by the supermarket pioneers in this country. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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#10
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Magician wrote:
Hi All Having been in the industrial equipment market for 30 odd years, can I make a few points about 'cheap' power tools and just why our Chinese friends can make them so cheap. Some good stuf there. But you miss out 2 points: 1. Theyre not going to buy designs for high end tools, they will only buy designs for cheapest to make tools 2. Every incoming design is inspected to find every possible way to cut its cost. Metal gears are replaced by plastic, fibreglass tape by cotton, shock absorbing handles by basic plastic ones, etc. In short, I dont think theres any such thing as a quality chinese power tool. Chinese manufacturing seems to be in the same place Japan was decades ago - and may well change its act just as Japan did. When it comes to other goods however, the quality spans a wide range, and I have come across cheapo chinese goods that seem just as good quality as the better accepted brands with 5x the price tag. Though not often. But you can never escape the awful marketing, the dreaded Flying Dong logo is a permanent reminder that you wre once a cheapass! NT |
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#11
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On 24 Mar 2005 16:18:26 -0800, "Magician"
wrote: Hi All Having been in the industrial equipment market for 30 odd years, can I make a few points about 'cheap' power tools and just why our Chinese friends can make them so cheap. A huge part of the cost of a new product - Bosch with the jigsaw, Skill with the circular saw, is development. Not just the huge cost of developing the tool, but developing the market for it. If you look at the progress of any product in marketing terms the initial sales of a new product will be low - people resist new ideas and it takes time to get new products accepted. You don't make any money at this stage. The sales graph then starts to grow rapidly and this is where you stick on an absolutely huge margin and make mega bucks. Sales will then level off, your margin will drop a little, but is still good and you get steady sales, but no growth. The product is a cash cow in marketing terms. If the margin came under pressure, you could only lower production costs by cutting back on quality of materials. So far you have described a marketing text book scenario. You haven't taken into account the effect of the route to market and distribution channel. Depending on the nature of these (e.g. how many layers and their nature and the nature of your product and brand), the financial model between manufacture and point of sale can be remarkably different. For example, a very high end manufacturer of capital goods may well sell and support his products directly (perhaps you do that). A quality manufacturer of equipment may choose to market his products predominantly through value add channels. Said channel (e.g. specialist tool supplier) may have a sales part to his business and also service and spares. At the low end there are the volume distribution outfits which work on two parameters only. Maximal margin and minimal product returns. Each of these has very different characteristics and hugely affects the front to back business model for the manufacturer. With most products the sales start to decline for various reasons; the product is replaced by new technology (typewriters for example) or it becomes a 'me too' product that everyone is making. Some industries encourage this, the motor trade for one. Dawoo were tarted up Vauxhall Astras. Vauxhall sold the rights & machinery and moved on. Many other industries do the same thing. Italy was the first 'cheap producer' of power tools, compressors, welders, cleaning machines etc because their labour rates were lower. Now look at the Chinese. They only make copies of other peoples products. No product development, no market development, no huge investment whilst waiting for the return, no marketing to create a brand. This is not quite true. The Chinese manufacturing houses also make products for western manufacturers to their specifications and quality levels and to their designs. They don't make original items, they make 'me too' products - often passed on by European manufacturer's who have moved on. You are ignoring patent, copyright and licensing of designs. Add to that the huge difference in labour rates; monthly wage that compares to a European hourly wage and no wonder they can make stuff cheaply! They don't have to cut material quality to cut costs! This isn't entirely true. They certainly do cut material costs. If you compare a Chinesified version of a quality western power tool, you will find that there are loads of substitutions of component material and type to reduce the cost. The other huge factor for them is the distribution channel. They are forced to predominantly sell through the volume outlets who have only two parameters in mind - maximum margin and minimum returns (the latter ameliorated a little if the manufacturer is prepared to take the hit on returns). There is zero added value by the volume retailers, no service, no spares, simply shifting of product. Another factor comes in, the rise of the huge retailers and especially the 'hard discounters' like Aldi, Lidl, Netto. These people have major market shares in Europe, but struggle in the UK because of our high brand awareness (read snobbery). There is brand awareness everywhere and in different ways. It is wrong to equate it with snobbery - that is an oversimplification that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. For example, the chavs go for their fake Gucci, Rolex and Barbour products - not really snobbery, more to do with following like sheep. JCB decided to prostitute theirs on cheap power tools. It was low risk for them because although they are known for mechanical diggers, it would be unlikely that a bad press in £30 electric planers would affect excavator image. These cheap supermarkets struggle in the UK for a variety of reasons. One is that they have assumed that everybody wants to buy on price. Big mistake. They have assumed that people in the UK are keenly price aware. Most people are not, they shop by habit. They have also assumed that people want to buy things in a warehouse rather than having it properly displayed. The major supermarkets do a bad enough job at that. If you visit a large supermarket in France like LeClerc, Auchan or even Carrefour, the fresh produce displays are superb and so are the fish counters - and the French think that even they are marginal. The biggest mistake that any sales or distribution channel can make is in believing that a business and product model that works in one place will work everywhere. It doesn't. For example, a Safeway supermarket near to me was acquired by Morrisons. Previously, although it was not brilliantly run and the displays were lacklustre, they did have a profile of products that people wanted to buy - low end own brands, high end own brands and major brands. I buy very little prepackaged food, but they had a broad variety of items from all around the world. We don't have a large ethnic population, so thae market was clearly to people with a shortage of time who wanted to try out different things. All of this has been replaced. They have loaded the shelves with their own cheap products, the high end ones are all but gone and they have substantially reduced the ethnic food range and replaced it with pies. The result is that people are going elsewhere in droves. Somebody who works there told me that sales are down by over 30% and falling. They made the mistake of assuming that the business model and product profile that works in one part of the country will work in another. It doesn't. Sainsburys - an incompetently run organisation if there ever was one - has managed to gain market share from them http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4378035.stm Suddenly the retailers can shift the huge volumes the low cost manufacturers need. Simple facts are; that cheap Chinese power tool from Aldi was probably once a top of the range brand manufacturers pride & joy. But due to overheads you will find the same product at different prices. That would make the assumption that the original manufacturer would license out his design. A big assumption. It is now entirely possible to have power tools that are made cheaply but not cheaply made. You may be buying old technology, but there is no reason to suspect inferior quality in every case. There is always a reason to suspect inferior quality when a product is at the low end of the range. This is common economics. It may not actually *be* of low quality, but it comes back to the principle of whether you want to buy solely on price without considering all teh factors. If you do, and price is the only consideration, then you might as well buy the cheap thing and not look any further. Three year warranty a marketing ploy? Possibly. More often that the cost of manufacture in a low wage economy exceeds labour rates and transport costs in a high wage economy. It's exactly a marketing ploy, and a very cynical one. For the volume retailers it is an attempt to give the person buying the impression that the product is of quality. they hope that people in their minds equate this to the warranties given by the quality manufacturers which are instead about that manufacturer standing behind their product. There the expectation is that nothing will happen during the warranty period and that there will be spares and service after that. The warranty offered by the volume retailer is far from being that. It is a con to attempt to convince the gullible purchaser that the product is of quality and in some way equivalent to the branded offering with all of its backup. The reality of course, is that there is typically no service or spares at all and failure after warranty results in bin. This practice should be made illegal because it is highly misleading. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#12
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Andy Hall wrote:
For example, a Safeway supermarket near to me was acquired by Morrisons. All Safeway supermarkets were acquired by Morrisons. They didn't acquire it just because it was near you. I know that's not what you meant but the fact that you phrase it in that way is typical of your egocentric nature. Everything's got to be about you. Anyone else would have said, " When Morrisons took over the local Safeway..." Previously, although it was not brilliantly run and the displays were lacklustre, they did have a profile of products that people wanted to buy - low end own brands, high end own brands and major brands. I buy very little prepackaged food, but they had a broad variety of items from all around the world. We don't have a large ethnic population, so thae market was clearly to people with a shortage of time who wanted to try out different things. All of this has been replaced. They have loaded the shelves with their own cheap products, the high end ones are all but gone and they have substantially reduced the ethnic food range and replaced it with pies. The result is that people are going elsewhere in droves. Somebody who works there told me that sales are down by over 30% and falling. They made the mistake of assuming that the business model and product profile that works in one part of the country will work in another. It doesn't. On their home territory, Morrisons has a very extensive range of ethnic foods - more extensive than the other three majors - and as for a "broad variety of items from all around the world", you're more likely to find esoteric brands and items in Morrisons than the others. So they clearly haven't imported this policy as you claim. It's just another example of you presenting your ill-informed opinion as fact. They have loaded the shelves.... with pies. My God!!! The working class vermin!!! We should drive them into the sea!!! And you say you're not a snob..... Poor old John Rumm. After all the trouble he went to adding a cheap/expensive power tool section to the FAQ following our little ding-dong on the Erbauer thread, I thought you might have engaged in a little self-analysis and stopped hectoring people with your pathetic, irrelevant snobbery. I guess some people just can't change. |
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#13
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In article om,
wrote: For example, a Safeway supermarket near to me was acquired by Morrisons. All Safeway supermarkets were acquired by Morrisons. They didn't acquire it just because it was near you. I know that's not what you meant but the fact that you phrase it in that way is typical of your egocentric nature. Everything's got to be about you. Anyone else would have said, " When Morrisons took over the local Safeway..." FFS, if you read the rest of the post, Andy was referring to the one near him as an example - not necessarily the chain. You'd need to be rather more than just a customer to analyse the change in direction - if any - of the group. Previously, although it was not brilliantly run and the displays were lacklustre, they did have a profile of products that people wanted to buy - low end own brands, high end own brands and major brands. I buy very little prepackaged food, but they had a broad variety of items from all around the world. We don't have a large ethnic population, so thae market was clearly to people with a shortage of time who wanted to try out different things. All of this has been replaced. They have loaded the shelves with their own cheap products, the high end ones are all but gone and they have substantially reduced the ethnic food range and replaced it with pies. The result is that people are going elsewhere in droves. -- *If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#14
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
... In article om, wrote: For example, a Safeway supermarket near to me was acquired by Morrisons. All Safeway supermarkets were acquired by Morrisons. They didn't acquire it just because it was near you. I know that's not what you meant but the fact that you phrase it in that way is typical of your egocentric nature. Everything's got to be about you. Anyone else would have said, " When Morrisons took over the local Safeway..." FFS, if you read the rest of the post, Andy was referring to the one near him as an example - not necessarily the chain. You'd need to be rather more than just a customer to analyse the change in direction - if any - of the group. And what's more, I totally agree with Andy's point about the takeover. Safeway's (both the one local to my work and any other I've been in) were quite miserable and cheap-and-nasty enough before. Morrison's takeover has just removed any of the "plus" bits of what used to be Safeway's and turned it into the nastiest hole of a supermarket you could ever wish to visit. In my experience, they also have the rudest, slowest, most poorly trained bunch of half-wits working for them that I've ever had the mis-pleasure to meet. Sainsbury's and Waitrose on the other hand (my locals near home) have great food and the most fantastic, helpful, friendly staff. They really will go out of their way to assist you if you're looking for something and the people behind the counters (meat, fish) actually know what they're selling and how to cut it. Even Tosco's aren't that bad in this respect. It would make me so happy if Morrison's went bust and removed their stain from the UK supermarket industry. This has nothing to do with snobbery - I just expect to find humans working where I shop! a |
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"al" wrote in message . .. "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article om, wrote: For example, a Safeway supermarket near to me was acquired by Morrisons. All Safeway supermarkets were acquired by Morrisons. They didn't acquire it just because it was near you. I know that's not what you meant but the fact that you phrase it in that way is typical of your egocentric nature. Everything's got to be about you. Anyone else would have said, " When Morrisons took over the local Safeway..." FFS, if you read the rest of the post, Andy was referring to the one near him as an example - not necessarily the chain. You'd need to be rather more than just a customer to analyse the change in direction - if any - of the group. And what's more, I totally agree with Andy's point about the takeover. Safeway's (both the one local to my work and any other I've been in) were quite miserable and cheap-and-nasty enough before. Morrison's takeover has just removed any of the "plus" bits of what used to be Safeway's and turned it into the nastiest hole of a supermarket you could ever wish to visit. In my experience, they also have the rudest, slowest, most poorly trained bunch of half-wits working for them that I've ever had the mis-pleasure to meet. ********!! Near me the opposite occurred. The noticeable difference was the staff. Apparently they took Safeway staff out to courses on how to be customer friendly. Those who didn't the more regimented regime left. Just as well as some of them were slobs. It would make me so happy if Morrison's went bust and removed their stain from the UK supermarket industry. This sounds like spam, as it is totally against my experience I have of Morrison's. You can even buy metal paint, 3-in-one -oil, fuses, the odd tools, etc. All the every day things you need and cheap too. The wine is much cheaper than Safeway. What would be £5 is now £3. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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#17
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wrote in message ps.com... Andy Hall wrote: For example, a Safeway supermarket near to me was acquired by Morrisons. All Safeway supermarkets were acquired by Morrisons. They didn't acquire it just because it was near you. I know that's not what you meant but the fact that you phrase it in that way is typical of your egocentric nature. Everything's got to be about you. Anyone else would have said, " When Morrisons took over the local Safeway..." Previously, although it was not brilliantly run and the displays were lacklustre, they did have a profile of products that people wanted to buy - low end own brands, high end own brands and major brands. I buy very little prepackaged food, but they had a broad variety of items from all around the world. We don't have a large ethnic population, so thae market was clearly to people with a shortage of time who wanted to try out different things. All of this has been replaced. They have loaded the shelves with their own cheap products, the high end ones are all but gone and they have substantially reduced the ethnic food range and replaced it with pies. The result is that people are going elsewhere in droves. Somebody who works there told me that sales are down by over 30% and falling. They made the mistake of assuming that the business model and product profile that works in one part of the country will work in another. It doesn't. On their home territory, Morrisons has a very extensive range of ethnic foods - more extensive than the other three majors - and as for a "broad variety of items from all around the world", you're more likely to find esoteric brands and items in Morrisons than the others. So they clearly haven't imported this policy as you claim. It's just another example of you presenting your ill-informed opinion as fact. The local Morrison's is cheaper than the old Safeway with a similar range and quality. The staff are immaculately dressed as opposed to the slob looking attire of the Safeway staff. When Safeway's they would have a sort of street market outside the entrance each weekend. Morrison's stopped all that and raised the tone. They have loaded the shelves.... with pies. ********. Prejudice!!! Little Middle England southern attitude. The local Little Middle England neighbours were scornful of Morrison's coming because they came from Yorkshire, in the north of England, and said they stack em up high and sell em cheap. In fact they don't: Aldi, Netto and Lidl do that. They were scornful of the bakery because they introduced a range of pies and savouries. There is always a line at the bakery counter. And some of the Little Middle Englanders started to buy the nice fresh, and very cheap, pies. My God!!! The working class vermin!!! We should drive them into the sea!!! Of course, they should be killed for being poor. And you say you're not a snob..... Poor old John Rumm. After all the trouble he went to adding a cheap/expensive power tool section to the FAQ following our little ding-dong on the Erbauer thread, I thought you might have engaged in a little self-analysis and stopped hectoring people with your pathetic, irrelevant snobbery. I guess some people just can't change. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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Magician presented the following explanation :
Simple facts are; that cheap Chinese power tool from Aldi was probably once a top of the range brand manufacturers pride & joy. But due to overheads you will find the same product at different prices. It is now entirely possible to have power tools that are made cheaply but not cheaply made. You may be buying old technology, but there is no reason to suspect inferior quality in every case. I buy some of this equipment for my less regular usage needs. I find the quality of build and materials can be very variable. One item I bought, an SDS drill, just keeps on going despite lots of heavy use. An hot air gun lasted just a few minutes and its identical replacement (under guarantee) lasted a similar amount of time. Both came from Aldi and I suspect Aldi simply bought these types of things as a commidity, with no checks at all on their durability in use. Keep the receipts and return them if they suffer early failure. Hand tools are similarly quite variable in quality.... Fine to cheaply equip oneself so you can have several caches of tools around the house for small jobs, to save your legs on the quick jobs. -- Regards, Harry (M1BYT) (L) http://www.ukradioamateur.org |
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"Magician" wrote in message oups.com... Hi All Having been in the industrial equipment market for 30 odd years, can I make a few points about 'cheap' power tools and just why our Chinese friends can make them so cheap. A huge part of the cost of a new product - Bosch with the jigsaw, Skill with the circular saw, is development. Not just the huge cost of developing the tool, but developing the market for it. If you look at the progress of any product in marketing terms the initial sales of a new product will be low - people resist new ideas and it takes time to get new products accepted. You don't make any money at this stage. The sales graph then starts to grow rapidly and this is where you stick on an absolutely huge margin and make mega bucks. Sales will then level off, your margin will drop a little, but is still good and you get steady sales, but no growth. The product is a cash cow in marketing terms. If the margin came under pressure, you could only lower production costs by cutting back on quality of materials. With most products the sales start to decline for various reasons; the product is replaced by new technology (typewriters for example) or it becomes a 'me too' product that everyone is making. Some industries encourage this, the motor trade for one. Dawoo were tarted up Vauxhall Astras. Vauxhall sold the rights & machinery and moved on. Many other industries do the same thing. Italy was the first 'cheap producer' of power tools, compressors, welders, cleaning machines etc because their labour rates were lower. Now look at the Chinese. They only make copies of other peoples products. No product development, no market development, no huge investment whilst waiting for the return, no marketing to create a brand. They don't make original items, they make 'me too' products - often passed on by European manufacturer's who have moved on. Add to that the huge difference in labour rates; monthly wage that compares to a European hourly wage and no wonder they can make stuff cheaply! They don't have to cut material quality to cut costs! Another factor comes in, the rise of the huge retailers and especially the 'hard discounters' like Aldi, Lidl, Netto. These people have major market shares in Europe, but struggle in the UK because of our high brand awareness (read snobbery). Suddenly the retailers can shift the huge volumes the low cost manufacturers need. Simple facts are; that cheap Chinese power tool from Aldi was probably once a top of the range brand manufacturers pride & joy. But due to overheads you will find the same product at different prices. It is now entirely possible to have power tools that are made cheaply but not cheaply made. You may be buying old technology, but there is no reason to suspect inferior quality in every case. Three year warranty a marketing ploy? Possibly. More often that the cost of manufacture in a low wage economy exceeds labour rates and transport costs in a high wage economy. Magician, what you said was magical. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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Magician wrote:
Another factor comes in, the rise of the huge retailers and especially the 'hard discounters' like Aldi, Lidl, Netto. These people have major market shares in Europe, but struggle in the UK because of our high brand awareness (read snobbery). I don't think it's just snobbery - more like xenophobia. British consumers don't like foreign packaging with funny words on. They won't buy Hazelnusscremewaffeln-mit-Schokolade in Lidl if they can buy My Cartoon Hero Greasy Donuts in Tesco. The European budget conscious consumer is probably rather more broadminded than the British one - a lot of British people won't eat foreign food even when they're on holiday. Owain |
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In article , Owain owain47125@sti
rlingcity.coo.uk writes Magician wrote: Another factor comes in, the rise of the huge retailers and especially the 'hard discounters' like Aldi, Lidl, Netto. These people have major market shares in Europe, but struggle in the UK because of our high brand awareness (read snobbery). I don't think it's just snobbery - more like xenophobia. British consumers don't like foreign packaging with funny words on. They won't buy Hazelnusscremewaffeln-mit-Schokolade in Lidl if they can buy My Cartoon Hero Greasy Donuts in Tesco. The European budget conscious consumer is probably rather more broadminded than the British one - a lot of British people won't eat foreign food even when they're on holiday. Owain Yes the French hardly consume anything French at all, they love food from other countries!! I think you need to get out more Owain -- David |
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#25
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On 24 Mar 2005 16:18:26 -0800, "Magician"
wrote: Hi All Having been in the industrial equipment market for 30 odd years, can I make a few points about 'cheap' power tools and just why our Chinese friends can make them so cheap. A huge part of the cost of a new product - Bosch with the jigsaw, Skill with the circular saw, is development. Not just the huge cost of developing the tool, but developing the market for it. If you look at the progress of any product in marketing terms the initial sales of a new product will be low - people resist new ideas and it takes time to get new products accepted. You don't make any money at this stage. I'd disagree with this, a product fills a 'need', then the market is created by its price, for instance mobile phones. snip Simple facts are; that cheap Chinese power tool from Aldi was probably once a top of the range brand manufacturers pride & joy. But due to overheads you will find the same product at different prices. It is now entirely possible to have power tools that are made cheaply but not cheaply made. You may be buying old technology, but there is no reason to suspect inferior quality in every case. I expect the Chinese have developed their own tooling, and are just manufacturing what their customers (DIY chains, catalogue shops etc) want, which is tools that are cheap but passably good. cheers, Pete. |
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#26
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In article ,
Pete C wrote: I expect the Chinese have developed their own tooling, and are just manufacturing what their customers (DIY chains, catalogue shops etc) want, which is tools that are cheap but passably good. Yes, but perhaps the majority are either impulse buys, or bought as presents. And at the cheaper end, the majority of decent DIYers - IMHO - will find them sadly lacking. If they persevere with them. I've lost count of how many 'budget' tools I've bought only to replace them with decent ones - after discovering just how useful a 'proper' one can be. Jigsaw, router, compound mitre saw, cordless drill spring to mind. -- *On the other hand, you have different fingers. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#27
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
... Yes, but perhaps the majority are either impulse buys, or bought as presents. And at the cheaper end, the majority of decent DIYers - IMHO - will find them sadly lacking. If they persevere with them. I've lost count of how many 'budget' tools I've bought only to replace them with decent ones - after discovering just how useful a 'proper' one can be. Jigsaw, router, compound mitre saw, cordless drill spring to mind. Yeah, in a fit of "Wow ... that's cheap" I bought a three piece 14V kit of drill, jigsaw and detail sander (home brand Homebase for about £15-20). The sander gives you a fuzzy feel all over but doesn't really do anything. The drill is ok for screwdriving, but a bit on the slow side. The jigsaw ... oh the jigsaw! It umm ... gets about 5cm into a piece of 18mm ply and then the battery dies. And it has no guide. And it has crap blades. And it's uncomfortable to use. Waste of money. Got a B&D Mouse as a detail sander instead, which has done quite well in recent re-decorating. Still use the drill for screwdriving, but back to my corded 10 year old B&D for proper drilling. I did use the jigsaw with the fine blade for cutting some plaster coving recently, but that's it (looking for a new one soon, but I realise a bit more money needs to be spent on them and I need a power planer first!). a |
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On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:56:03 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , Pete C wrote: I expect the Chinese have developed their own tooling, and are just manufacturing what their customers (DIY chains, catalogue shops etc) want, which is tools that are cheap but passably good. Yes, but perhaps the majority are either impulse buys, or bought as presents. And at the cheaper end, the majority of decent DIYers - IMHO - will find them sadly lacking. If they persevere with them. I've lost count of how many 'budget' tools I've bought only to replace them with decent ones - after discovering just how useful a 'proper' one can be. Jigsaw, router, compound mitre saw, cordless drill spring to mind. As fas as budget power tools go, it seems tools with a purely rotary action are more likely to give acceptable results, but tools with a lateral action or controls are a riskier proposition. So in descending order of acceptability you could have angle grinder, drill, circular saw, mitre saw, jigsaw, router, planer, compound mitre saw etc. Cordless drills and tools are a bit of a special case though. Budget tools are ideal what I'd call for 'beginner DIY', with some care a good selection can be had for £100-150, which would be a lot better than one 'pro' tool alone. They can they be replaced with better ones over time as the need arises. When starting out doing DIY the biggest time saving is finding out how to do things the most efficient way I'd have thought, even if things do take a bit longer with budget tools. Once this is realised, then the limiting factor becomes the tools themselves, so upgrading them is a good idea. cheers, Pete. |
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#29
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"Pete C" wrote in message
... As fas as budget power tools go, it seems tools with a purely rotary action are more likely to give acceptable results, but tools with a lateral action or controls are a riskier proposition. So in descending order of acceptability you could have angle grinder, drill, circular saw, mitre saw, jigsaw, router, planer, compound mitre saw etc. Cordless drills and tools are a bit of a special case though. Interesting order. Agree with the first 3 or 4. But cheap jigsaws seem to be a nightmare. Also, I would have thought that mid-range planers are pretty good. Extra money bring lightweight and perhaps longevity. I'm trying to buy a planer at the moment, having got sick to death of trying to get a sensible cutting angle out of my "manual" plane (a bit too cheap me thinks). Homebase (of all places!) have a Bosch PHO-1 (Green range) for sale for about £35, which is reasonable, but I think at least last year's model, if not older. I certainly don't want to spend more than £50. What do you think? Folly or not ..? a |
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#30
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al wrote:
I'm trying to buy a planer at the moment, having got sick to death of trying to get a sensible cutting angle out of my "manual" plane (a bit too cheap me thinks). Homebase (of all places!) have a Bosch PHO-1 (Green range) for sale for about ï½£35, which is reasonable, but I think at least last year's model, if not older. I certainly don't want to spend more than ï½£50. What do you think? Folly or not ..? I have one of those - bought it probably 12 years ago or more. It was one of those occasions where almost any tool would have done - and that was the cheapest reasonable looking one. Having bought it, it has had reasonably regular use over the years. Good points: Enough power, runs reasonably smoothly, leaves a good finish. Height of the sole plate is easy to adjust. Not so good: The dust extraction spout is an odd shape (trapezoidal!) that makes attaching a hose next to impossible unless you can track down the correct adaptor. Mains lead leaves straight out the back rather than to a side, which tends to mean you always get it caught up on the work when planing something long (like the side of a door), could do with being a tad longer. Setting a null depth of cut after changing the blades seems to be an exercise in trial and error (with emphasis on the error bit). You can't lock the trigger on which can become fatiguing after time. The case geometry means that it is not possible to do much in the way of a rebate with it before the case will hit the work. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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#31
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On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:38:50 GMT, "al"
wrote: "Pete C" wrote in message .. . As fas as budget power tools go, it seems tools with a purely rotary action are more likely to give acceptable results, but tools with a lateral action or controls are a riskier proposition. So in descending order of acceptability you could have angle grinder, drill, circular saw, mitre saw, jigsaw, router, planer, compound mitre saw etc. Cordless drills and tools are a bit of a special case though. Interesting order. Agree with the first 3 or 4. But cheap jigsaws seem to be a nightmare. Also, I would have thought that mid-range planers are pretty good. Extra money bring lightweight and perhaps longevity. I'm trying to buy a planer at the moment, having got sick to death of trying to get a sensible cutting angle out of my "manual" plane (a bit too cheap me thinks). Homebase (of all places!) have a Bosch PHO-1 (Green range) for sale for about £35, which is reasonable, but I think at least last year's model, if not older. I certainly don't want to spend more than £50. What do you think? Folly or not ..? Hi, I bought a Skil recently which looks pretty similar, Skil being part of the Bosch group. It gives a very good surface finish but isn't a high precision tool, if used a number of times on the same surface of wood then the overall depth of cut isn't that accurate. It should be possible to check how good a planer will be, by using the edge of a decent steel rule to check that the front and rear parts of the base are parallel at different depths of cut. Also that the tip of the blades when at the lowest point are parallel to the base too, and how near they will cut to the plane that the rear part of the base is in. The problem I had with a cheap one is that the blades were slightly above the rear part of the base, and the base had a sharp edge. So once the workpiece caught this edge it would be pushed down a bit, the blades would then leave a very slight 'step' in the wood, this in turn gets caught, and so on, leaving a 'ripple' on the planed wood  If using it a lot then the means of changing the blade is worth a look, on the better ones they are clamped down by a bar held by socket screws with no adjustment required. On the cheaper ones they're often clamped by a bar which is retained in a slot by backing off small bolts tapped into the bar. These need fine adjustment, and the bolts are often made of soft steel and the blade spanner from thin metal... Also the size of the planer is a factor, a huge planer that can remove 3mm in one go may be a bit unwieldy. I had a B&D planer 10-12 years ago that I thought was pretty good, they still make a very similar one the KW715A, so this may be worth a look. Not the KW712KA though, a comparison of the service diagrams on the B&D website shows up the differences. AFAICT the cheap ones are very much the luck of the draw, the mid range ones should give a good finish but are unlikely to be high accuracy, the top end ones will give a great finish and should be ideal for taking material off in several passes accurately. So for trimming door bottoms almost anything will do, for planing sawn wood to a good finish or 'cleaning up' some wood a mid range or possibly a budget one should do, and for removing exactly n.n mm off the end of a worktop a high end one would be best, but you may get lucky with something cheaper. If you can speak to a joiner they should be able to give some good advice, there are a few here that might be able to chip in  cheers, Pete. |
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On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:10:03 +0000, Pete C
wrote: On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:56:03 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , Pete C wrote: I expect the Chinese have developed their own tooling, and are just manufacturing what their customers (DIY chains, catalogue shops etc) want, which is tools that are cheap but passably good. Yes, but perhaps the majority are either impulse buys, or bought as presents. And at the cheaper end, the majority of decent DIYers - IMHO - will find them sadly lacking. If they persevere with them. I've lost count of how many 'budget' tools I've bought only to replace them with decent ones - after discovering just how useful a 'proper' one can be. Jigsaw, router, compound mitre saw, cordless drill spring to mind. As fas as budget power tools go, it seems tools with a purely rotary action are more likely to give acceptable results, but tools with a lateral action or controls are a riskier proposition. So in descending order of acceptability you could have angle grinder, drill, circular saw, mitre saw, jigsaw, router, planer, compound mitre saw etc. Cordless drills and tools are a bit of a special case though. I take your point on things like angle grinders where the work isn't precision anyway, although factors like failure of electrrical components come into it. With lateral action, I guess you're thinking of things like jigsaws where rotary motion is converted to linear. On that I agree with you, although I think a lot of the issue becomes the nature of the application usually being finer work. I'd probably put portable planers nearer the front of the list. There seems to be less difference across the range and none of them are really for precision applications by their nature. Routers, although rotary and linear in nature, do need to be decent. The low end ones have poor slide mechanisms and often underpowered motors so are fairly limited. -- ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#33
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On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:52:31 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote: On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:10:03 +0000, Pete C wrote: So in descending order of acceptability you could have angle grinder, drill, circular saw, mitre saw, jigsaw, router, planer, compound mitre saw etc. Cordless drills and tools are a bit of a special case though. With lateral action, I guess you're thinking of things like jigsaws where rotary motion is converted to linear. On that I agree with you, although I think a lot of the issue becomes the nature of the application usually being finer work. I'd probably put portable planers nearer the front of the list. There seems to be less difference across the range and none of them are really for precision applications by their nature. Hi, Given that the average DIYer is likely to be fitting kitchens and trimming doors, I'd tend to agree, so from that perspective swapping planers and jigsaws in the list would be in order. cheers, Pete. |
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#34
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"Pete C" wrote in message ... On 24 Mar 2005 16:18:26 -0800, "Magician" wrote: Hi All Having been in the industrial equipment market for 30 odd years, can I make a few points about 'cheap' power tools and just why our Chinese friends can make them so cheap. A huge part of the cost of a new product - Bosch with the jigsaw, Skill with the circular saw, is development. Not just the huge cost of developing the tool, but developing the market for it. If you look at the progress of any product in marketing terms the initial sales of a new product will be low - people resist new ideas and it takes time to get new products accepted. You don't make any money at this stage. I'd disagree with this, a product fills a 'need', then the market is created by its price, for instance mobile phones. No. Large organisations, the car industry is an example, have marketing depts create desire and demand. The car industry is not technology driven, so needs to create desire to sell outdated products. You never see a car being sold on the latest leading edge technology, it is always image and lifestyle, etc. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:33:49 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote: I'd disagree with this, a product fills a 'need', then the market is created by its price, for instance mobile phones. No. Large organisations, the car industry is an example, have marketing depts create desire and demand. The car industry is not technology driven, so needs to create desire to sell outdated products. You never see a car being sold on the latest leading edge technology, it is always image and lifestyle, etc. They are marketing *their* product, but the market for cars as a whole was first realised by Henry Ford, who manufactured a car that substantial numbers of people could afford. cheers, Pete. |
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"Pete C" wrote in message ... On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:33:49 -0000, "Doctor Evil" wrote: I'd disagree with this, a product fills a 'need', then the market is created by its price, for instance mobile phones. No. Large organisations, the car industry is an example, have marketing depts create desire and demand. The car industry is not technology driven, so needs to create desire to sell outdated products. You never see a car being sold on the latest leading edge technology, it is always image and lifestyle, etc. They are marketing *their* product, but the market for cars as a whole was first realised by Henry Ford, who manufactured a car that substantial numbers of people could afford. You obviously didn't get it. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 120,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account |
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On 24 Mar 2005 16:18:26 -0800, "Magician"
wrote: Hi All snip Now look at the Chinese. They only make copies of other peoples products. No product development, no market development, no huge investment whilst waiting for the return, no marketing to create a brand. They don't make original items, they make 'me too' products - often passed on by European manufacturer's who have moved on. Add to that the huge difference in labour rates; monthly wage that compares to a European hourly wage and no wonder they can make stuff cheaply! They don't have to cut material quality to cut costs! Also, as with many developing countries, there is little governmental control on the operating standards of the factories. None of the environmental and safety controls that exist here. The safety record in the manufacturing belt of Southern China is appalling. David |
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