"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

Don't know about the wasps but please don't denigrate the badger
which
does
a lot of good for the countryside. The only disease it spreads is
bovine TB which only affects cattle.

And thence humans.

Don't be silly. Bovine TB and human TB are totally different diseases.

So why is there the fuss about bovine TB? Why are cattle killed when
they're
reactors even if they don't HAVE TB?

Same as with Foot and Mouth and other livestock diseases - to stop it
potentially spreading.
Whether this is the best policy is another argument of course - one you
should take up with DEFRA, not me.



They pass it on by walking in the cow's feeding
trays which means you must keep badgers out of the cowshed come what
may.

What about cattle which live outside?

If all cattle lived outside all year we wouldn't have the TB problem.
Unfortunately we would have a lot of hungry cold cattle and high calf
mortality.

You haven't addressed my previous point nor this oneproperly. You're
cherry
picking, thus devaluing your argument.

I've answered your incoherent comments as best as I can. Plus my argument
has full weight of the law - your's doesn't !


There are several breeds of cows which can and do live outside perfectly
well, we have a daughterwith such a herd.

There are few short-haired cows who can comfortably take a British winter.
If you leave them out they suffer badly and lose many calves. Unless your
daughter's herd was Angus or suchlike then she was opening herself to
prosecution anyway.


But she still had a reactor...

Did she supplement their feed in winter using a feeding trough ? If she
did the badgers will have walked in it, if she didn't she'd have starving
cows.



I don't want to have anything to do with badgers. If they appeared in my
garden they'd have accidents.
I used to eat badger meat but no longer.

I would gladly seek a prosecution of you if you did either now. They are a
protected species and idiots like you harassing them deserve the full weight
of the law on your backs.


They are dirty by human standards - like all 'vermin' - and can be
vicious.

No animal is as dirty as humans, except possibly rats. Badgers are vicious
but only to escape.

"Howard Neil" wrote in message
...
Mike wrote:
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message

And thence humans.


Don't be silly. Bovine TB and human TB are totally different diseases.

Bovine TB is zoonotic. Humans can still catch it.

Only by overly close contact with the cow !!
And even then it is not transmissible to other humans.

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:36:52 -0000, "Mike" wrote:

Oh I think if a badger bit you half of the surrounding countryside would
hear it . They really tear into each other in their domestic disputes :-)

That's for sure. They have very sharp teeth.

I remember hand-feeding several wild badgers when I was in my young
teens. We lived close to a large woods and the lady up the road backed
onto the woods, and each night fed them by leaning thru the window at
the end of her garage.

They were quite timid, but you got the impression that you wouldn't
want to mess with them.

Andrew

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Mike wrote:
"Howard Neil" wrote in message
...

Mike wrote:

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message

And thence humans.


Don't be silly. Bovine TB and human TB are totally different diseases.

Bovine TB is zoonotic. Humans can still catch it.


Only by overly close contact with the cow !!

Since you now admit that humans can catch it and that you were wrong, I
think you owe Mary an apology for calling her silly.

Just to remind you. You said

"Don't know about the wasps but please don't denigrate the badger which
does a lot of good for the countryside. The only disease it spreads is
bovine TB which only affects cattle."

Mary said "And thence humans."

You then said "Don't be silly. Bovine TB and human TB are totally
different diseases."


--
Howard Neil

"Howard Neil" wrote in message
...

And thence humans.

Don't be silly. Bovine TB and human TB are totally different diseases.

Bovine TB is zoonotic. Humans can still catch it.

Only by overly close contact with the cow !!

Since you now admit that humans can catch it and that you were wrong, I
think you owe Mary an apology for calling her silly.

No I don't. It cannot spread to the general human population which was what
she was implying. A person having intimate (and I really do mean intimate)
contact with an infected cow might catch it but cannot pass it on to other
humans so there is no general danger to the general public. This is the
same with most animal diseases, even currently the bird flu we are worrying
about so much in Asia, though of course this has previously changed into a
human transmissible disease at least twice in history so there is something
to worry about there.

It is alarmist comments such as those from Mary that lead idiots to kill
badgers illegally which then leads to the disease spreading through the
countryside as other badgers move in to those freed up areas. Farmers here
have worked hard to keep our area part of the county clean of animal
diseases for many years but it just takes a bit of idiocy to damage this
forever.

Mike wrote:
"Howard Neil" wrote in message
...

And thence humans.

Don't be silly. Bovine TB and human TB are totally different diseases.

Bovine TB is zoonotic. Humans can still catch it.

Only by overly close contact with the cow !!

Since you now admit that humans can catch it and that you were wrong, I
think you owe Mary an apology for calling her silly.


No I don't. It cannot spread to the general human population which was what
she was implying.

She did not say that and I cannot see where you get that implication
from. I think you have just jumped to conclusions and that attitude
makes me doubt the wisdom of everything else you write.


--
Howard Neil

In message , Owain
writes
Mary Fisher wrote:
HMG isn't culling badgers.
Maybe not at the moment, but they were in 2000:
http://www.naturalworldtours.co.uk/a...r/oct0700f.htm
and are considering it again:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4295169.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4308121.stm
I know but I said HMG ISN'T ...
That doesn't mean in the past or perhaps in the future.

Badgers don't have votes or pay taxes, so they're not entitled to
government protection.

Nor do most kids, let's kill them then ...

--
geoff

In message , Mike
writes

"Howard Neil" wrote in message
...
Mike wrote:
"Mary Fisher" wrote in message

And thence humans.


Don't be silly. Bovine TB and human TB are totally different diseases.

Bovine TB is zoonotic. Humans can still catch it.

Only by overly close contact with the cow !!

Oh yes ... countryside pursuits

And even then it is not transmissible to other humans.

(Thinks of Wurzel Gummer and his MacDonalds eating kids)

--
geoff

"Howard Neil" wrote in message
...

She did not say that and I cannot see where you get that implication
from. I think you have just jumped to conclusions and that attitude
makes me doubt the wisdom of everything else you write.


That's entirely up to you. But just don't killing any protected species.

Mike wrote:
"Howard Neil" wrote in message
...

She did not say that and I cannot see where you get that implication
from. I think you have just jumped to conclusions and that attitude
makes me doubt the wisdom of everything else you write.



That's entirely up to you. But just don't killing any protected species.



I don't understand the second sentence.

--
Howard Neil

raden wrote:
Badgers don't have votes or pay taxes, so they're not entitled to
government protection.
Nor do most kids, let's kill them then ...

The government was doing so well with what was admittedly a longer-term
strategy until Jamie Oliver stepped in.

Owain

In message , Mary
Fisher writes


I'm British - we only have two species, almost indistinguishable.

We have three COMMON species of social wasps in England (I live in
Yorkshire). I'm not counting hornets, we rarely have them as far north as
this, sadly.

Can you name the species you think are common?



I've done it scores of times, though I'm not heavy-footed.

But you said that they *won't* react. You can't guarantee that.


I can guarantee they won't react to me walking up to a nest I know is
there. I've done it often enough.
Wasps try to hide their nests, they've nothing to gain by unprovoked
attacks on passing cattle (which do make the ground vibrate).

Of course they get it wrong sometimes: I was stung in the foot when I
accidentally stood on the entrance hole of a nest, but since it was in
our orchard their mistake was maladaptive.


They die quite slowly, and not immediately.

What you call, unscientifically,going spare is writhing from the effects of
the poison on their nervous system.

It's their reaction to having their nest disturbed - they'd do the same
if you puffed talcum powder into it.
The insecticides suitable for this job take several hours to have any
effect at all, as is obvious when the fuss dies down and the wasps
resume normal activity. Most of them will have died by the following
morning though.


They don't EAT fruit.


Eating fruit is their main ecological niche. Their population builds
slowly until late summer, then they produce lots more workers and their
queens and drones while food is briefly plentiful.

What did you think they were doing chewing their way into a plum or an
apple? They didn't evolve on a diet of leftover cola and sugar icing!

So why kill the colony?

So as to have some fruit fit to store.

We usually have several wasp nests in our house and
in our garden every year. We never kill them, we watch them. and I've
studied them, academically.

And what exactly was the study?


The amount of carrion they clean up is insignificant,

It's not but I don't know why you brought that in. They do take far more
live meat from what most people consider to be pests.

That's in all the books and I've even seen it, though rarely. I wonder
if the books' authors were confusing them with the tiny parasitic wasps
whose impact is significant.

That just proves that you don't know much about wasps.What's worse, you're
not willing to learn.

Lets have some verifiable information from you then.

--
Sue, PhD (Agric) ]

In message , Andrew McKay
writes
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:36:52 -0000, "Mike" wrote:

They were quite timid, but you got the impression that you wouldn't
want to mess with them.

No, you wouldn't.

The reason badger baiting was considered worthwhile as a sport, was that
one badger against several dogs was a fairly even match.

It seems to be more of a claws than a teeth thing. Next time you find a
reasonably fresh roadkill badger, check it over.
I've never seen them fight, but the reason you put little doors into
fences across their trails is that they uproot solidly-built fences with
a single heave of their shoulders. That strength is behind their claws
when they fight.

As for human-like behaviour, there was a pub in a Welsh mining valley
where every Saturday lunchtime a badger would show up, the regulars
would give it half a pint of beer and a packet of crisps and it'd go
home again.
When someone followed it home they found it was walking eleven miles to
the pub and eleven miles back.
You'd think it'd brew its own cider and save the trouble, but probably
the wasps'd had all the fruit!

--
Sue ]

"Sue" wrote in message
...
They were quite timid, but you got the impression that you wouldn't
want to mess with them.

No, you wouldn't.

The reason badger baiting was considered worthwhile as a sport, was that
one badger against several dogs was a fairly even match.

It seems to be more of a claws than a teeth thing. Next time you find a
reasonably fresh roadkill badger, check it over.
I've never seen them fight, but the reason you put little doors into
fences across their trails is that they uproot solidly-built fences with
a single heave of their shoulders. That strength is behind their claws
when they fight.

Their rear legs are incredibly powerful. I've seen one corner a fox and
kick it almost to death with them.

When two males compete for territory, they will spit at each other and swipe
at each other with their front claws, but all the time they are looking for
the opportunity to turn and kick with the back legs without getting kicked
in the bum themselves.