When I flushed & refilled my CH system last year I had to remove quite a
wodge of jelly-like growth from the header tank. Luckily it hadn't
descended into the pipe work.

Fernox appear to make AF-10 biocide to deal with this growth - I tried
to buy some but no-one seemed to stock it and I was advised that most
people just add extra inhibitor into the tank to deal with the problem
so I did.

I checked the header-tank yesterday and the growth has returned so I'm
again trying to buy AF-10. The local Plumbase said they could get some
in but I just went to collect it and they'd failed to do so, so now
they're ordering it direct from Fernox. I was again told that no-one
uses it which is why they don't stock it and that it "old hat".

What else could I use or do?

--
dave @ stejonda

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dave @ stejonda wrote:
When I flushed & refilled my CH system last year I had to remove quite a
wodge of jelly-like growth from the header tank. Luckily it hadn't
descended into the pipe work.

Neither brick acid, creosote, nor car body filler are appropriate, so
the answer must be caustic soda :-)

Owain

dave @ stejonda wrote:

When I flushed & refilled my CH system last year I had to remove quite a
wodge of jelly-like growth from the header tank. Luckily it hadn't
descended into the pipe work.

Fernox appear to make AF-10 biocide to deal with this growth - I tried
to buy some but no-one seemed to stock it and I was advised that most
people just add extra inhibitor into the tank to deal with the problem
so I did.

I checked the header-tank yesterday and the growth has returned so I'm
again trying to buy AF-10. The local Plumbase said they could get some
in but I just went to collect it and they'd failed to do so, so now
they're ordering it direct from Fernox. I was again told that no-one
uses it which is why they don't stock it and that it "old hat".

What else could I use or do?

According to BES' catalogue

FERNOX ALPHI-11. A combined anti-freeze and inhibitor which is suitable
for protecting heating, chilled water, and solar systems. It helps
prevent oxidic corrosion, bacterial contamination and limescale
formation. Suitable for all metals
5 litre £16.43

In message , John Stumbles
writes
dave @ stejonda wrote:

I checked the header-tank yesterday and the growth has returned so
I'm again trying to buy AF-10.

I was again told that no-one uses it which is why they don't stock it
and that it "old hat".
What else could I use or do?

According to BES' catalogue

FERNOX ALPHI-11. A combined anti-freeze and inhibitor which is suitable
for protecting heating, chilled water, and solar systems. It helps
prevent oxidic corrosion, bacterial contamination and limescale
formation. Suitable for all metals
5 litre £16.43

Thanks for that John I'll add that in if I can't get the AF-10.

--
dave @ stejonda

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"dave @ stejonda" wrote in message ...
When I flushed & refilled my CH system last year I had to remove quite a
wodge of jelly-like growth from the header tank. Luckily it hadn't
descended into the pipe work.

The slime is a "bio-film".
See
ehp.niehs.nih.gov/docs/1998/106-12/innovations.html

It probably hasn't got into the main circulation pipework because the
working temperature is too high for it to survive. It has only
proliferated in the stagnant water of the F&E tank, the cold feed and
open vent pipes. The organsims responsible secrete a sticky
carbohydrate coating which protects them from disinfectants and
anti-biotics. Generally, it takes 1,500 times as much disinfectant to
kill and disperse a biofilm as a bacterial infestation; I doubt that
Fernox or household disinfectants will clear the infestation, some
bugs will survive and the bio-film will return in a few months.

It may be Pseudomonas aeruginosa , a very persistent slime that can
clog heating or cooling systems. I'm an engineer, not a
microbiologists, so I'm open to correction by the microbiologists who
frequent this forum. Pseudomonas was in the trade mags a few years
ago, having been identified in a number of clogged-up or contaminated
commercial systems. The organism was getting in through the fill water
and, once clogged, the systems were extraordinarily difficult to
clear. It is present in small numbers in the environment and
(possibly) in the mains water, like legionella. It is harmless in this
form, the problems occur when it is given favourable conditions to
survive and multiply. The recommendation was to disinfect the water
used to fill the systems, to prevent the system becoming contaminated.
I don't know the details, but I think it was low-temperature systems
(water treatment, chilled water, heat recovery), rather than LTHW
heating systems.

Pseudomonas aeruginosa can cause infections, especially lung
infections in cystic fibrosis sufferers, also urinary tract & contact
lense problems.

I think I'd look at converting to a sealed system, if your boiler is
suitable (i.e., it must have a secondary manual-reset high-limit
thermostat), and minimize the lengths of any dead-legs. Check with the
boiler manufacturers. Otherwise do some searching for an effective
biocide. If you've got plastic pipes, then be aware that polybutylene
pipes (e.g., HEP2O) don't like high chlorine levels, chlorine being a
common and effective disinfectant ingredient. I think PEX is OK.

Aidan wrote:
"dave @ stejonda" wrote in message
...
When I flushed & refilled my CH system last year I had to remove
quite a
wodge of jelly-like growth from the header tank. Luckily it hadn't
descended into the pipe work.

Pseudomonas aeruginosa can cause infections, especially lung
infections in cystic fibrosis sufferers, also urinary tract & contact
lense problems.

good point. I would be a bit cautious about handling it. Bugs in that
quantity could overwhelm anyone's T cells.

Chlorine will evaporate in time, but might do something to reduce slime
and bacteria population for a bit. I'd stick some copper compund in
there, its harmless to your heating system and kills just about
everything. CuSO4 should so it. Swimming pools sometimes use Cu and Ag
in place of Cl2.

Since its not in the hot section, boiling the water for half an hour
would also kill it, fwiw.

A chemical that breaks down the sticky coating may help a lot as well,
by removing most of the defences.


NT

In message .com,
writes
Aidan wrote:
"dave @ stejonda" wrote in message
...
When I flushed & refilled my CH system last year I had to remove
quite a
wodge of jelly-like growth from the header tank. Luckily it hadn't
descended into the pipe work.

Pseudomonas aeruginosa can cause infections, especially lung
infections in cystic fibrosis sufferers, also urinary tract & contact
lense problems.

good point. I would be a bit cautious about handling it. Bugs in that
quantity could overwhelm anyone's T cells.

Hmmm, I *will* be more careful.

Chlorine will evaporate in time, but might do something to reduce slime
and bacteria population for a bit.

Chlorine bleach? But would adding that adversely affect the rest of the
system?

I'd stick some copper compund in
there, its harmless to your heating system and kills just about
everything. CuSO4 should so it. Swimming pools sometimes use Cu and Ag
in place of Cl2.

I tried to find a source of CuSO4 and failed. Ahhh
http://www.ukpoolstore.co.uk/ does stock both stabilised chlorine
granules & a copper-based 6 Month Algaecide. They're not far from us.
Would either of these be Ok? (Wonders, why is any of this necessary in
my system??? - what is wrong with it?)

Since its not in the hot section, boiling the water for half an hour
would also kill it, fwiw.

A chemical that breaks down the sticky coating may help a lot as well,
by removing most of the defences.

Hopefully an algaecide will contain that.

--
dave @ stejonda

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dave @ stejonda wrote:
I tried to find a source of CuSO4 and failed.

Back in t'olden days I can remember getting it in toy shops as refills
for chemistry sets.

I never achieved anything with a chemistry set other than Secret Writing
and a smokey kitchen.

Owain

dave @ stejonda wrote:

Chlorine bleach? But would adding that adversely affect the rest of
the
system?

I tried to find a source of CuSO4 and failed. Ahhh
http://www.ukpoolstore.co.uk/ does stock both stabilised chlorine
granules & a copper-based 6 Month Algaecide. They're not far from us.

Would either of these be Ok?

It's not an algae, so an algaecide would be of dubious effectiveness.
I'd be very wary of bunging in home-brew chlorine or copper compounds
in the hope of killing it. Thery could create corrosion problems, if
not flushed out. Pseudomonas was resistant to customized biocides, I
wouldn't count on a home-brew toxin. Even if you got the system 100%
sterile, there'll be bugs lurking in the environs of the F&E tank,
ready to recolonize the water when the chemical's effectiveness have
diminished.

The slime isn't in the circulation pipes and isn't causing a problem.
If you must use chemicals, I'd just disconnect, drain and treat the OV,
feed pipe and F&E tank.

I still think a sealed system is the best fix for this. If any bugs get
established in the expansion vessel, they won't get out.

Sorry I don't know more about the appropriate chemicals.

PS

I just did a search of Google Groups and found there is a group called
"bionet . microbiology . biofilms"! I kid you not. Someone there might
have an answer.

In message .com,
Aidan writes
I just did a search of Google Groups and found there is a group called
"bionet . microbiology . biofilms"! I kid you not. Someone there might
have an answer.

yup, and available from both my main news servers.

--
dave @ stejonda

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In message . com, Aidan
writes
dave @ stejonda wrote:

Chlorine bleach? But would adding that adversely affect the rest of
the
system?

I tried to find a source of CuSO4 and failed. Ahhh
http://www.ukpoolstore.co.uk/ does stock both stabilised chlorine
granules & a copper-based 6 Month Algaecide. They're not far from us.

Would either of these be Ok?

It's not an algae, so an algaecide would be of dubious effectiveness.

Ah.

I'd be very wary of bunging in home-brew chlorine or copper compounds
in the hope of killing it. Thery could create corrosion problems, if
not flushed out. Pseudomonas was resistant to customized biocides, I
wouldn't count on a home-brew toxin. Even if you got the system 100%
sterile, there'll be bugs lurking in the environs of the F&E tank,
ready to recolonize the water when the chemical's effectiveness have
diminished.

The slime isn't in the circulation pipes and isn't causing a problem.
If you must use chemicals, I'd just disconnect, drain and treat the OV,
feed pipe and F&E tank.

If the Fernox chemicals don't sort it then I'll go this route.

I still think a sealed system is the best fix for this. If any bugs get
established in the expansion vessel, they won't get out.

I'll keep that idea in reserve for now, but thanks.

--
dave @ stejonda

UCE Spammer : : Bots please harvest

In message , John Stumbles
writes
dave @ stejonda wrote:
When I flushed & refilled my CH system last year I had to remove
quite a wodge of jelly-like growth from the header tank. Luckily it
hadn't descended into the pipe work.
Fernox appear to make AF-10 biocide to deal with this growth - I
tried to buy some but no-one seemed to stock it and I was advised
that most people just add extra inhibitor into the tank to deal with
the problem so I did.
I checked the header-tank yesterday and the growth has returned so
I'm again trying to buy AF-10. The local Plumbase said they could get
some in but I just went to collect it and they'd failed to do so, so
now they're ordering it direct from Fernox. I was again told that
no-one uses it which is why they don't stock it and that it "old hat".
What else could I use or do?

According to BES' catalogue

FERNOX ALPHI-11. A combined anti-freeze and inhibitor which is suitable
for protecting heating, chilled water, and solar systems. It helps
prevent oxidic corrosion, bacterial contamination and limescale
formation. Suitable for all metals
5 litre £16.43


I suggest you call the Fernox help line for some definitive advice.
017990550811

The reason why contamination of the feed and expansion cistern has
occurred should be identified and the cause remedied otherwise
contamination will reoccur and the following stages will be a waste of
time.

The system should be drained and thoroughly flushed out.

The header tank thoroughly cleaned manually, ( face mask eye protection
rubber gloves) wipe internal surfaces with a rag soaked in strong bleach
solution.

The tank then should be flushed to remove ALL residual bleach

The system should be thoroughly cleaned out, then disinfected with
biocide ( ask Fernox for their recommendation),

Then again thoroughly flushed, and fully drained

Then and ONLY then should sufficient fresh inhibitor/corrosion proofer
be added.

Yes, time consuming but thoroughness will be rewarded with a trouble
free operation for years to come.

FWIW
Senile chemist

replying to dave , steady99 wrote:
Try JTM Plumbing. Got some from them the other day

--
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On 15/01/2017 18:14, steady99 wrote:
replying to dave , steady99 wrote:
Try JTM Plumbing. Got some from them the other day

OP posted on March 15, 2005, 10:59 am !!

Is dave still alive ???.

Does anyone know ?, does anyone even care ?.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 19:06:33 +0000, Andrew wrote:

On 15/01/2017 18:14, steady99 wrote:
replying to dave , steady99 wrote:
Try JTM Plumbing. Got some from them the other day

OP posted on March 15, 2005, 10:59 am !!

Is dave still alive ???.

They're all dead, Dave.

replying to dave , Geoff wrote:
Hi Dave
I have been an engineer for 30 years.
I use it on every underfloor heating system that we instal.
I find that if you power flush a system with a header tank it usually gets
infected with the sludge usually pseudonomous, which is bad for your lungs and
ears so wear a mask etc.
Drain the tank with a hose pipe bye siphoning it into a toilet or something
else, scrub the whole thing out ball valve and float, underside of the lid.
When it's all clean drain it down put AF10 in a smal plant sprayer and spray
all of the inside of the tank , spray some down the overflow all around the
ball valve etc ,wipe it all over with a cloth being carful not to miss any
where. Then wait 10 minutes refill tank wash it all around then drain it
again. Then refill but add two half ltr bottles of theAF10 and leave full. I
then ad another bottle or two to the system. Do not drain the tank through the
system!!
I hope this helps, or ring fernox

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On Saturday, 21 January 2017 21:14:04 UTC, Geoff wrote:
replying to dave , Geoff wrote:
Hi Dave
I have been an engineer for 30 years.
I use it on every underfloor heating system that we instal.
I find that if you power flush a system with a header tank it usually gets
infected with the sludge usually pseudonomous, which is bad for your lungs and
ears so wear a mask etc.
Drain the tank with a hose pipe bye siphoning it into a toilet or something
else, scrub the whole thing out ball valve and float, underside of the lid.
When it's all clean drain it down put AF10 in a smal plant sprayer and spray
all of the inside of the tank , spray some down the overflow all around the
ball valve etc ,wipe it all over with a cloth being carful not to miss any
where. Then wait 10 minutes refill tank wash it all around then drain it
again. Then refill but add two half ltr bottles of theAF10 and leave full. I
then ad another bottle or two to the system. Do not drain the tank through the
system!!
I hope this helps, or ring fernox

He had this issue 12 years ago, and is most likely long gone from here. This is news:uk.d-i-y, not a website, try a newsgroup portal or client that can claim basic sanity.

What's so magic about gallons of af10 anyway? Copper sulphate is vastly cheaper, and any CH system with copper in it is going to end up with copper compounds in the water anyway.


NT

On 21/01/2017 21:14, Geoff wrote:
replying to dave , Geoff wrote:
Hi Dave

Aren't you replying to Geoff?

Is Dave still alive?

I have been an engineer for 30 years.
I use it on every underfloor heating system that we instal.

Use what?

This might assist you with posting to a newsgroup, albeit through a website:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855

- If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you
summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just
enough text of the original to give a context.

replying to Andrew, Quolh wrote:

Yes, dave is still alive and kicking. I know him well Horatio.

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As a boy we used vast quantities of 40% formaldehyde around the market garden. Very few organisms could survive that.

replying to Aidan, Paul wrote:
I had this problem 3 years ago. I contacted Fernox who recommended AF10 but
said there are two types of bio infection you can get in a heating system.
They can test your water - at a cost! But suggested I try AF 10 first. I
managed to get some off eBay at the time and after flushing my system and
scrubbing the header tank, I added fresh inhibitor and AF10, several weeks
later there were signs of return, so I immediately bought another biocide
-this time managed to buy it locally at an Indy plumbers merchant, sorry
cant recall the name of it, added this to the header tank and it all went
away! Moral,of the tale - buy twice as much as it says on the bottle! Three
years on, it has not returned. Where did it come from? Well, the roof space is
an eco system of its own and I guess well never be sure, but make certain
your header tank is well insulated and - just as important- sealed as much as
it can be so that nothing can get in it and / or contaminate it such as
insects, my theory being you can only get a €˜bio infestation from an
organic origin.

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