I have a Victorian terraced property with a feeble water supply - 10L per
minute (via 1/2 inch lead pipe), as measured at a kitchen sink and confirmed
by the local water company. I will be putting in GCH soon - there is none at
present (I'll probably put the radiator circuits in myself - Speedfit or
similar under floorboards!). So there is to be a new a new boiler - t.b.d.
but not a combi. I want to do 'something' about my feeble water system at
the same time, probably getting rid of the old on-demand 'Main' gas water
boiler which is in a bedroom wardrobe. But I won't be upgrading the mains
water supply from the street.

There are two WC's and one bath/shower. The (thermostatic mixer) shower is
just about adequate, but turning on multiple outlets (incl filling the bath)
is hopeless!. The main thing is to get a decent flow when 1 outlet is
turned on, though improving the pressure/flow to hot and some cold taps (eg
bath) and particularly the existing shower would be a bonus. I don't want to
spend too much ( ~500 ukp on top of CH & boiler would be good).

The obvious thing is to put a big cold water tank (or tanks) into the loft,
which is large with good access. This to feed a new HW cylinder &
non-potable cold water outlets, via a pump in some way.

Are there any other options I should consider?

I've read numerous posts in this area, as well as the faq, and there is
indeed a lot of very good information - probably too much to completely take
in!. As far as I could tell heatbanks, thermal stores and the like fall down
on my low water pressure and/or my budget but tell me if I missed anything.

Thanks,

Paul.

"DIYSOS" wrote in message
...
I have a Victorian terraced property with a feeble water supply - 10L per
minute (via 1/2 inch lead pipe), as measured at a kitchen sink and
confirmed
by the local water company. I will be putting in GCH soon - there is none
at
present (I'll probably put the radiator circuits in myself - Speedfit or
similar under floorboards!). So there is to be a new a new boiler - t.b.d.
but not a combi. I want to do 'something' about my feeble water system at
the same time, probably getting rid of the old on-demand 'Main' gas water
boiler which is in a bedroom wardrobe. But I won't be upgrading the mains
water supply from the street.

There are two WC's and one bath/shower. The (thermostatic mixer) shower is
just about adequate, but turning on multiple outlets (incl filling the
bath)
is hopeless!. The main thing is to get a decent flow when 1 outlet is
turned on, though improving the pressure/flow to hot and some cold taps
(eg
bath) and particularly the existing shower would be a bonus. I don't want
to
spend too much ( ~500 ukp on top of CH & boiler would be good).

The obvious thing is to put a big cold water tank (or tanks) into the
loft,
which is large with good access. This to feed a new HW cylinder &
non-potable cold water outlets, via a pump in some way.

Are there any other options I should consider?

I've read numerous posts in this area, as well as the faq, and there is
indeed a lot of very good information - probably too much to completely
take
in!. As far as I could tell heatbanks, thermal stores and the like fall
down
on my low water pressure and/or my budget but tell me if I missed
anything.

Thanks,

Paul.

Before going any futher. What pressure/flow do the water people say you
would have if you upgraded your mains supply to a 25mm blue pipe? This
determines which way you should design the system for now and in the future.




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"DIYSOS" wrote in message
...
I have a Victorian terraced property with a feeble water supply - 10L per
minute (via 1/2 inch lead pipe), as measured at a kitchen sink and
confirmed
by the local water company. I will be putting in GCH soon - there is none
at
present (I'll probably put the radiator circuits in myself - Speedfit or
similar under floorboards!). So there is to be a new a new boiler - t.b.d.
but not a combi. I want to do 'something' about my feeble water system at
the same time, probably getting rid of the old on-demand 'Main' gas water
boiler which is in a bedroom wardrobe. But I won't be upgrading the mains
water supply from the street.

There are two WC's and one bath/shower. The (thermostatic mixer) shower is
just about adequate, but turning on multiple outlets (incl filling the
bath)
is hopeless!. The main thing is to get a decent flow when 1 outlet is
turned on, though improving the pressure/flow to hot and some cold taps
(eg
bath) and particularly the existing shower would be a bonus. I don't want
to
spend too much ( ~500 ukp on top of CH & boiler would be good).

The obvious thing is to put a big cold water tank (or tanks) into the
loft,
which is large with good access. This to feed a new HW cylinder &
non-potable cold water outlets, via a pump in some way.

Are there any other options I should consider?

I've read numerous posts in this area, as well as the faq, and there is
indeed a lot of very good information - probably too much to completely
take
in!. As far as I could tell heatbanks, thermal stores and the like fall
down
on my low water pressure and/or my budget but tell me if I missed
anything.


Depending on just how high you can site your cold water storage tanks you
may or may not need to worry about dynamic pressure to the shower. This
might avoid the need for a shower booster pump but if you want to make
provision "just in case" I'd suggest piping hot and cold to a suitable point
where you could break into the pipework and install a suitable pump if you
decide the available head simply isn't enough. Chances are you will never
need it but at least the ground is prepared.
Ensure you choose a suitably sized hot and cold tank outflow especially for
long/convoluted runs also that the cold outlet is lower than the hot in case
the storage tank runs empty (so anyone in the shower will not be momentarily
scalded)

Thanks for that advice - should come in useful.

I could also mention that I like the idea of running my (DIY Speedfit!)
radiator circuits indirectly via some sort of thermal store or heatbank.
This to prevent boiler over-cycling and hopefully limit any potential damage
to the radiator circuits if there is a boiler fault. Are thermal store -
type systems available where stored water from a big, slow-filling cold tank
can be pumped through the 'thermal store' instead of the mains water supply
to provide hot water?. Something like this might be an ideal solution,
perhaps I'm describing something that is widely available under some name?

At this point I'm just about at, or beyond the limits of my understanding so
I'm just hoping this makes some sense!.

Cheers - Paul aka DIYSOS

"DIYSOS" wrote in message
...
Thanks for that advice - should come in useful.

I could also mention that I like the idea of
running my (DIY Speedfit!)
radiator circuits indirectly via some
sort of thermal store or heatbank.
This to prevent boiler over-cycling
and hopefully limit any potential damage
to the radiator circuits if there is a
boiler fault. Are thermal store -
type systems available where stored
water from a big, slow-filling cold tank
can be pumped through the 'thermal
store' instead of the mains water supply
to provide hot water?. Something like
this might be an ideal solution,
perhaps I'm describing something that
is widely available under some name?

At this point I'm just about at, or beyond
the limits of my understanding so
I'm just hoping this makes some sense!.

What you say can be done, but not as a package. A cold tank can have a pump
off it that supplies the cold supplies and hot feed to a thermal store. An
"integrated" thermal store with two cylinder stats to eliminate boiler
cycling is what you want. Try Range Cylinders, web site below.

The cold tank can be anywhere, not just in the loft. For one man who was
having a loft conversion done and all tanks removed, but with very poor
water pressure (it was to be uprgraded in the district in 5 years time), I
suggested putting the cold tank in the garage loft. This meant an
underground blue pipe from the garage to the house at a point where the
future new mains would enter. The booster pump (Grundfos Boost pump) was
also in the garage. It fed a thermal store. So no water or pump noises in
the hosue and high enough pressure of around 1 - 1.5 bar. I suggested
putting some insulation around the tank in the rafters and have a small
greenhouse heater run off a frost stat in case. He made a sort of insulated
plywood room up there around the tank. The last I heard he still had it, not
bothering to have the new mains run in when the district was updated. When
the pumps plays up he probably will update the mains pipe.

Look at:
http://www.mcdonald-engineers.com
http://www.elsonho****er.co.uk/ (make square stirage vessels)
http://www.heatweb.com (make heat banks and storage vessels to size)
http://www.albion-online.co.uk (make thermal stores and stioarge vessels)
http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (make cylindrical heat banks and storage
vessels. Will make to order)
http://www.gledhill.net (make heat banks and storage vessels)
http://www.newarkcyl.freeserve.co.uk (make cylindrical thermal stores and
storage vessels. (They are quite cheap and will make to order)
http://www.telford-group.com make cylindrical thermal stores and storage
vessels
http://www.chelmerheating.co.uk (make cylindrical thermal stores)
http://www.rcmgroup.co.uk/




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Why not upgrade the main ? water co should make the connection FOC you only
have to lay the pipe

Regards Jeff

Too expensive and/or too much hassle for me and my considered opinion is I
that won't be doing this..

Previous posters have reached the same conclusion in similar situations
though in the end it's a fair option, and in some ways perhaps the best
option, that some would want to take.

But I'll have enough to do for now putting in the CH circuits as it is...

Cheers,
Paul.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Why not upgrade the main ? water co should make the connection FOC you
only
have to lay the pipe

Regards Jeff

I asked ST a few months ago, from memory it was something like 1 bar - the
same as current pressure as reported by a possible (at the time) CH
installer after sticking a gauge onto the outside tap. Would the standing(?)
pressure, unlike the flow rate, change much after upgrading the pipe?.

But upgrading the supply is off the table anyway unless there are severe
problems with alternatives - hopefully not the case!.

Paul aka DIY SOS.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Before going any futher. What pressure/flow do the water people say you
would have if you upgraded your mains supply to a 25mm blue pipe? This
determines which way you should design the system for now and in the future.

If you go the cold tank route erect a platform as high as possible for it to
sit on,the higher the better,but at least a min of one meter above the
shower head and balance this by bringing a seperate cold feed to the shower
outlet direct from the tank.This will overcome most of your low pressure
problems and will help to prevent drops in pressure when other outlets are
open.

At my last house i had a head of 1.5 m and had a great shower without
thermostatic valve and had no problems.

The platform needs to be built with bracing I would use 4x2 and bolt timbers
together

Alex

DIYSOS wrote:

Would the standing(?)
pressure, unlike the flow rate, change much after upgrading the pipe?.

alas not much, if at all...

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

I could also mention that I like the idea of running my (DIY Speedfit!)
radiator circuits indirectly via some sort of thermal store or heatbank.
This to prevent boiler over-cycling and hopefully limit any potential
damage
to the radiator circuits if there is a boiler fault. Are thermal store -
type systems available where stored water from a big, slow-filling cold
tank
can be pumped through the 'thermal store' instead of the mains water
supply
to provide hot water?. Something like this might be an ideal solution,
perhaps I'm describing something that is widely available under some name?

Although I'm not sure you have the right reasons to install a heat bank, a
standard unit will be as happy sitting on a traditional cold water tank with
a shower pump as it would be on the mains. Indeed, it would work better than
a traditional gravity cylinder, as there is no chance of sucking air down
the vent pipe. You could also put the shower pump before the heat bank,
which gives more "push" than "pull", which is good for the pump, and will
reduce scaling, as cold water is less of a problem than hot.

Christian.

"Alex" wrote in message
...
If you go the cold tank route erect a platform as high as possible for it
to
sit on,the higher the better,but at least a min of one meter above the
shower head and balance this by bringing a seperate cold feed to the
shower
outlet direct from the tank.This will overcome most of your low pressure
problems and will help to prevent drops in pressure when other outlets are
open.

At my last house i had a head of 1.5 m and had a great shower without
thermostatic valve and had no problems.

The platform needs to be built with bracing I would use 4x2 and bolt
timbers
together

Alex

He wants a pumped system, so the tank can go anywhere, even at the end of
the garden.




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He wants a pumped system, so the tank can go anywhere, even at the end
of the garden.

However, some pressure is required in order to activate the flow switch,
unless an accumulator/pressure based pumping system is used, which is likely
to be more expensive than a simple flow switch shower pump. You can forget
momentary switch activation on a system that supplies all the taps.

The pressure required to activate the switches may require some head,
especially if a thermostatic mixer is used and check valves are used in
preference to chocolate teapot hose clips that prevent you using the shower
to wash out the bath/tray.

Christian.

I'll use the term 'heatbank' (as it's DIY-able, I believe) in preference to
thermal store...

So far, I think I'm starting to like this scheme. Then again I don't know
how much these heatbanks cost yet, or how big it would need to be or where
it would go!.

I'm thinking that, ideally, I'd have the boiler heat the primary mass of
water in the heatbank -nothing else. Both the CH rads and HW would be
secondary indirect throughputs, though I don't know if this is asking too
much!. I could almost imagine getting a Corgi to put in the working boiler
and heatbank, then add all the rest myself later (well, perhaps!).

I think I understand that using a good (say 1.5 or 3 bar) shower-type pump
it would be possible to have a pumped HW, and CW supply to much of the house
(excl drinking water taps of course) at reasonable pressure and cost - if
the 9ft between the 1st floor heatbank (base) & loft floor CW tank gives
enough head for the switches. And the bath might even take 15 mins to
fill...

In my particular case, the CW tank would be going in the loft. I can see the
virtues of raising the tank(s) towards the apex, I've seen posts on how to
do this, but would hope that this could be avoided if drawing off water with
a pump. As I'd imagined a slow-filling tank, to prevent the feeble mains
water supply drying up when it's filling, the flip side is that it (or they)
would need to be 'large' , and heavy, so as not to run dry at busy times.

I'd rather not use a pump, but think I'll need to to get a reasonable result
with the shower and for other reasons.... for instance all the existing
pipes, incl main runs, are all only 15mm so low gravity pressure flow split
two ways when two outlets are on will again give a poor result. This might
particularly affect the washing mc, min working pressure 0.5 bar.

I suppose any extra pressure might, possibly, find some leaks in the
existing pipes that I didn't know I had. And I don't know how noisy the
tank(s) & pump would be... but hopefully the heatbank won't mind too much sh
ould the CW tank run dry?

I hadn't thought about drawing from a traditional cylinder using a pump, I
suppose (that, rightly or wrongly, I saw the advantage of the heatbank /
thermal store on the CH side, with the extra thermal mass perhaps giving a
bit of extra stability, and giving a level of separation between the boiler
and my radiator circuits-to-be. Oh, and a previous poster called IMM seemed
to like them!.

Just to ask if there are there any other (lowish-cost) major options I
should be looking at?. What would Isambaard Kingdom Brunell do (apart from
dig up the entry and upgrade the mains supply, or sell up and move house)?.

Cheers,


Paul aka DIYSOS

Well I'm finding technical info on various heatbanks but price info seems
very hard to get on-line. If anyone knows of an on-line supplier with a good
range & pricelist that would help alot.

Likewise collapsible tanks (I live in a Victorian terrace and the best place
for the CW tank would be in the rear wing of the loft, accessable thru the
12inch rafters). I did get a quote for a 50 gallon collapsible tank from a
local plumbers merchant, figure came in at ~120 ukp.

I'm still learning from your replies and many pervious posts. I've changed
some of my ideas somewhat, but in principle still like the concept of a
boiler heated thermal store & indirect/isolated HW and CH circuits.

For reference I had three quotes for CH recently. This was for
slightly-larger-than-average Victorian 3 bed terrace, estimated heatloss of
16KW, with no existing CH. This in the Midlands, 2 zones + condensing boiler
with the HW being left as-is. They all came it at about 6kukp. Had me
reaching for the Speedfit without much ado. 2 wanted to put a GloWorm boiler
in - not sure if that's because they're good for me or just
convenient/profitable for them.

This thread is probably dead now but if anyone has any info on the above
please post.

Thanks - Paul aka DIYSOS

2 wanted to put a GloWorm boiler in - not sure if that's because they're
good for me or just convenient/profitable for them.

The latest Glowworm is a different beast to those that preceded it. It has
an outward firing cylindrical burner, which is a good alternative to a
downward firing unit.

Christian.