Friend is removing one rad and replacing it with two others. In lifting
the floor he has found that the main supply around the first floor is in
thin wall steel pipe with what appears to be 15 mm copper tee-ed off to
the actual rads. I've measured an offcut of the steel as being 21.5 mm
OD with walls of about 2.5 mm.

WTF????

The offcut is showing only very faint signs of rusting the (hacksaw)
cut end. The pipe can be cut without difficulty with an ordinary pipe
cutter. It is not, according to my magnet, stainless steel - is that a
reliable test?

He's a little perplexed as to how he inserts new tees to supply the new
rads. Slipping a 22 mm end feed joint onto the offcut reveals a large
gap that I think is too big for soldering.


Q: What is the steel pipe? What fittings should/can he use? Is all lost!

TIA

Richard

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How was the 15mm copper attached to the steel?

The steel was probably an ersatz substitute for 3/4" copper pipe, which
was used until 1971. The 1/2" pipe was the same OD as 15mm tube, hence
the apparent 15mm tube to the rads. There were material shortages from
the end of WW2 until the early 70s and all manner of stuff was used.

You could probably get a joint if you get some 3/4" x 22mm compression
adaptors from a plumbers' merchants, or 3/4" compression olives to fit
in a 22mm compression joint. 3/4" pipe is about 21mm OD (can't find the
micrometer).

You could rip it out and repipe with PEX.

In article ,
Richard wrote:
The offcut is showing only very faint signs of rusting the (hacksaw)
cut end. The pipe can be cut without difficulty with an ordinary pipe
cutter. It is not, according to my magnet, stainless steel - is that a
reliable test?

No reason why it should rust anymore than the rads themselves. Water in a
near sealed system doesn't contain oxygen, therefore no rust.

--
*I'm pretty sure that sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Thanks

Further information from steel pipe-owner:

The 15 mm pipe is not, as he first thought, copper: it is in fact steel!

A 15 mm compression fitting seems to provide a good fitting. We think
that we (shared blame when it all goes horribly wrong!) are going to
connect 15 mm copper to the steel using a compression fitting.

How does that sound?

BTW rip out and replace with polypipe is not even worth suggesting to
him. It's taken his wife over a year to persuade him to fit the two
rads and get as far as lifting boards and actually hang the rads.

Richard

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may not be published in, or used by

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Aidan wrote:

The steel was probably an ersatz substitute for 3/4" copper pipe, which
was used until 1971. The 1/2" pipe was the same OD as 15mm tube, hence
the apparent 15mm tube to the rads. There were material shortages from
the end of WW2 until the early 70s and all manner of stuff was used.

Wasn't there also, specifically, a Great Copper Shortage for a
relatively brief period around 1980(?) when other materials were used?

David

Lobster wrote:

Wasn't there also, specifically, a Great Copper Shortage for a
relatively brief period around 1980(?) when other materials were
used?

Quite likely, but I'm too young to recall it. :-0

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Richard wrote:

Friend is removing one rad and replacing it with two others. In
lifting the floor he has found that the main supply around the first
floor is in thin wall steel pipe with what appears to be 15 mm copper
tee-ed off to the actual rads. I've measured an offcut of the steel
as being 21.5 mm OD with walls of about 2.5 mm.

WTF????

The offcut is showing only very faint signs of rusting the (hacksaw)
cut end. The pipe can be cut without difficulty with an ordinary pipe
cutter. It is not, according to my magnet, stainless steel - is that
a reliable test?

He's a little perplexed as to how he inserts new tees to supply the
new rads. Slipping a 22 mm end feed joint onto the offcut reveals a
large gap that I think is too big for soldering.


Q: What is the steel pipe? What fittings should/can he use? Is all
lost!

TIA

Richard

As others have said, so-called stainless steel pipe was used in the 60's and
70's when there was a copper shortage. The sizes will be 1/2" Imperial**
(virtually identical to 15mm) and 3/4" Imperial - whose OD is just slightly
less than 22mm. You can use 15mm compression fittings on the 1/2" stuff, and
22mm compression fittings with special imperial olives on the 3/4" stuff. I
wouldn't advise trying to use solder fittings on this pipe.

** Imperial pipe sizes refer to the nominal ID rather than the OD - which is
why 1/2" pipe is actually more than 1/2" in diameter - and the same for 3/4"
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In article ,
Lobster wrote:
Wasn't there also, specifically, a Great Copper Shortage for a
relatively brief period around 1980(?) when other materials were used?

Bit earlier than that IIRC - more like '70? UDI at Rhodesia? Or the three
day week?

--
*Born free...Taxed to death.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Set Square wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Richard wrote:

As others have said, so-called stainless steel pipe was used in the 60's and
70's when there was a copper shortage. The sizes will be 1/2" Imperial**
(virtually identical to 15mm) and 3/4" Imperial - whose OD is just slightly
less than 22mm. You can use 15mm compression fittings on the 1/2" stuff, and
22mm compression fittings with special imperial olives on the 3/4" stuff. I
wouldn't advise trying to use solder fittings on this pipe.

** Imperial pipe sizes refer to the nominal ID rather than the OD - which is
why 1/2" pipe is actually more than 1/2" in diameter - and the same for 3/4"

So, my 'magnets won't stick to stainless steel' test is flawed?

Where the 'large' steel meets the 'small' steel the fittings are sealed
by what appear to be soldered joints. Could these be silver soldered
rather than lead soldered? We tried soldering a pre-soldered copper
joint onto the steel offcut without success.

Anyway, thanks for the sizing and olive information.

Rgds Richard


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http://www.diyprojects.info

Richard wrote:
Set Square wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Richard wrote:

As others have said, so-called stainless steel pipe was used in the 60's and
70's when there was a copper shortage. The sizes will be 1/2" Imperial**
(virtually identical to 15mm) and 3/4" Imperial - whose OD is just slightly
less than 22mm. You can use 15mm compression fittings on the 1/2" stuff, and
22mm compression fittings with special imperial olives on the 3/4" stuff. I
wouldn't advise trying to use solder fittings on this pipe.

** Imperial pipe sizes refer to the nominal ID rather than the OD - which is
why 1/2" pipe is actually more than 1/2" in diameter - and the same for 3/4"

So, my 'magnets won't stick to stainless steel' test is flawed?

Yes.
Some stainless steel is magnetic, and some stainless becomes magnetic
after it is stressed.

Richard wrote:
Thanks

Further information from steel pipe-owner:

The 15 mm pipe is not, as he first thought, copper: it is in fact
steel!

A 15 mm compression fitting seems to provide a good fitting.


realise that olives wont bite into the steel the way they do with cu,
so it will always be a weaker joint than with cu pipe.

NT

Ian Stirling wrote:
Richard wrote:

So, my 'magnets won't stick to stainless steel' test is flawed?


Yes.
Some stainless steel is magnetic, and some stainless becomes magnetic
after it is stressed.

Ah! Thanks for that. The offcuts that we tested are not particularly
shiny - which is what I'd expect for SS - and have the sort of rainbow
sheen that you see on steel tent poles. Would SS have been used on
pipes that never saw the light of day, even in days of copper scarcity?

How are the existing joints made? As I said above they are some sort of
heated joint into copper fittings. I jokingly suggested that my
neighbour silver solder or braze the new fittings.

Rgds Richard


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may not be published in, or used by

http://www.diyprojects.info

Richard wrote:

How are the existing joints made? As I said above they are some sort of
heated joint into copper(*) fittings. I jokingly suggested that my
neighbour silver solder or braze the new fittings.

Rgds Richard



(*) or perhaps brass.

Richard


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It might be Bundy tube, rolled steel tube galvanized or copper coated.
I think it's used for brake-pipes, compressed air & hydraulics.

Richard wrote:
Ian Stirling wrote:
Richard wrote:

So, my 'magnets won't stick to stainless steel' test is flawed?


Yes.
Some stainless steel is magnetic, and some stainless becomes magnetic
after it is stressed.

Ah! Thanks for that. The offcuts that we tested are not particularly
shiny - which is what I'd expect for SS - and have the sort of rainbow
sheen that you see on steel tent poles. Would SS have been used on
pipes that never saw the light of day, even in days of copper scarcity?

I honestly have no idea.

SS occasionally has that sort of sheen.

If you own a blowtorch...

A small bit of it.
Galvanised will burn off with an whitish fume (don't breath it) when it gets
near red hot.

It's certainly not plain steel, as that would at least be showing some
evidence of rust.

In article .com,
Aidan wrote:
It might be Bundy tube, rolled steel tube galvanized or copper coated.
I think it's used for brake-pipes, compressed air & hydraulics.

If so, you don't use ordinary compression fittings with an olive which
won't bite into the pipe properly. You use a rolled flange on the end.

--
*I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:42:43 +0000, Set Square wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Richard wrote:

Friend is removing one rad and replacing it with two others. In
lifting the floor he has found that the main supply around the first
floor is in thin wall steel pipe with what appears to be 15 mm copper
tee-ed off to the actual rads. I've measured an offcut of the steel
as being 21.5 mm OD with walls of about 2.5 mm.

WTF????

The offcut is showing only very faint signs of rusting the (hacksaw)
cut end. The pipe can be cut without difficulty with an ordinary pipe
cutter. It is not, according to my magnet, stainless steel - is that
a reliable test?

He's a little perplexed as to how he inserts new tees to supply the
new rads. Slipping a 22 mm end feed joint onto the offcut reveals a
large gap that I think is too big for soldering.


Q: What is the steel pipe? What fittings should/can he use? Is all
lost!

TIA

Richard

As others have said, so-called stainless steel pipe was used in the 60's and
70's when there was a copper shortage. The sizes will be 1/2" Imperial**
(virtually identical to 15mm) and 3/4" Imperial - whose OD is just slightly
less than 22mm. You can use 15mm compression fittings on the 1/2" stuff, and
22mm compression fittings with special imperial olives on the 3/4" stuff. I
wouldn't advise trying to use solder fittings on this pipe.

** Imperial pipe sizes refer to the nominal ID rather than the OD - which is
why 1/2" pipe is actually more than 1/2" in diameter - and the same for 3/4"

IME the OD of 1/2" pipe is just slightly bigger than 15mm so that
everything is very tight and generally rather awkward.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Richard" wrote in message
...
Friend is removing one rad and replacing it with two others. In lifting
the floor he has found that the main supply around the first floor is in
thin wall steel pipe with what appears to be 15 mm copper tee-ed off to
the actual rads. I've measured an offcut of the steel as being 21.5 mm OD
with walls of about 2.5 mm.

WTF????

SNIP
Hi Richard.
At 21.5 you will find it is 1/2" Nominal Bore PIPE (NOT TUBE). (actual size
0.840" OD or 21.336mm).
You could cut a thread on it or look for a 1/2" Nominal Bore compression
fitting.
Baz

Baz wrote:


SNIP
Hi Richard.
At 21.5 you will find it is 1/2" Nominal Bore PIPE (NOT TUBE). (actual size
0.840" OD or 21.336mm).
You could cut a thread on it or look for a 1/2" Nominal Bore compression
fitting.
Baz



Hi Baz,

Are you saying that a 1/2" compression fitting for copper is not suitable?

Richard

--
Real email address is RJSavage at BIGFOOT dot COM

The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by

http://www.diyprojects.info

Ed Sirett wrote:




IME the OD of 1/2" pipe is just slightly bigger than 15mm so that
everything is very tight and generally rather awkward.




Hi Ed,

Certainly trying to fit a 15 mm solder fitting was not possible.

Richard
--
Real email address is RJSavage at BIGFOOT dot COM

The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by

http://www.diyprojects.info

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article .com,
Aidan wrote:

It might be Bundy tube, rolled steel tube galvanized or copper coated.
I think it's used for brake-pipes, compressed air & hydraulics.


If so, you don't use ordinary compression fittings with an olive which
won't bite into the pipe properly. You use a rolled flange on the end.


Hi Dave,

How the devil do I achieve a rolled flange? And yes, there does appear
to be a welded seem along the length of the tube.

Richard

--
Real email address is RJSavage at BIGFOOT dot COM

The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by

http://www.diyprojects.info

In article ,
Baz wrote:
You could cut a thread on it or look for a 1/2" Nominal Bore compression
fitting.

Compression fittings need a high standard of surface finish on the pipe to
stand a chance of working. A threaded adaptor would be the way to go.

--
*When it rains, why don't sheep shrink? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Richard" wrote in message
...
Baz wrote:


SNIP
Hi Richard.
At 21.5 you will find it is 1/2" Nominal Bore PIPE (NOT TUBE). (actual
size 0.840" OD or 21.336mm).
You could cut a thread on it or look for a 1/2" Nominal Bore compression
fitting.
Baz

Hi Baz,

Are you saying that a 1/2" compression fitting for copper is not suitable?

SNIP
Hi Richard.
What I am saying is. You have PIPE not TUBE.
You need a 1/2" Nominal Bore compression fitting. Or a DN15 compression
fitting, which is the same thing but metricateted.
Take your bit of offcut to your local Builders merchants and they will sort
it out for you.

BTW. What fitting did you have on the Pipe at the start?
Baz

Baz wrote:

SNIP
Hi Richard.
What I am saying is. You have PIPE not TUBE.
You need a 1/2" Nominal Bore compression fitting. Or a DN15 compression
fitting, which is the same thing but metricateted.
Take your bit of offcut to your local Builders merchants and they will sort
it out for you.

BTW. What fitting did you have on the Pipe at the start?
Baz



Hi Baz,

My neighbour is the lucky chap with this pipework, not me thankfully.

Anyway, he seems to have a 21.5 mm main feed around the first floor and
tee-ed of this are the feeds to the rads (in slightly more than 15 mm
pipe). The thin stuff is attached to the rads with compression
fittings and to the larger stuff by what appear to be brass soldered
joints. They're not like copper Tee fittings where the 15 mm meets the
22 mm at right angles, but look as if the thick pipe sweeps into a 90
deg bend that also reduces to join the thin pipe. But the thick pipe
also continues straight across through the joint. Sorry that's a
diabolical description and I can't even provide a photo as he is away.

Richard



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