after the discussion when my old corsa was totalled, Im looking at a
replacement. As far as haggling is concerned whats the usual markup these
guys start at.?

Ive also seen the old car - it looks like the impact was in the rear part of
the passengers door. The whole passengers doors side has been pushed in
about a foot. The gap that existed between the drivers and passengers seat
doesnt exist any more and the floor in the rear passenger space is buckled.
Still no useful pointers to guessing impact speed from the other guy ?
As soon as adolescent teenager gets up & sorts his camera out I can upload
some pictures smewhere.

"p cooper" wrote in message
k...
after the discussion when my old corsa was totalled, Im looking at a
replacement. As far as haggling is concerned whats the usual markup these
guys start at.?

Ive also seen the old car - it looks like the impact was in the rear part
of
the passengers door. The whole passengers doors side has been pushed in
about a foot. The gap that existed between the drivers and passengers seat
doesnt exist any more and the floor in the rear passenger space is
buckled.
Still no useful pointers to guessing impact speed from the other guy ?
As soon as adolescent teenager gets up & sorts his camera out I can
upload
some pictures smewhere.

That sort of damage can be done with a speed less than 30mph, the side of a
car is not that strong (compared to the front and rear), the damage that you
describe sounds like it's reparable if the cars market value made repair
economic - what I would really like to know is what the door gaps [1] are
like on the other side, this will tell far more about the structure of the
car, rather than what the bent bits look like [2].

[1] the gap between front wing and the gap between the door / rear quarter
panel.

[2] panel work is designed to bend in an accident, the damage often looks
worse than it really is.

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"p cooper" wrote in message
k...
after the discussion when my old corsa was totalled, Im looking at a
replacement. As far as haggling is concerned whats the usual markup
these
guys start at.?

Ive also seen the old car - it looks like the impact was in the rear part
of
the passengers door. The whole passengers doors side has been pushed in
about a foot. The gap that existed between the drivers and passengers
seat
doesnt exist any more and the floor in the rear passenger space is
buckled.
Still no useful pointers to guessing impact speed from the other guy ?
As soon as adolescent teenager gets up & sorts his camera out I can
upload
some pictures smewhere.

That sort of damage can be done with a speed less than 30mph, the side of
a
car is not that strong (compared to the front and rear), the damage that
you
describe sounds like it's reparable if the cars market value made repair
economic - what I would really like to know is what the door gaps [1] are
like on the other side, this will tell far more about the structure of the
car, rather than what the bent bits look like [2].

[1] the gap between front wing and the gap between the door / rear quarter
panel.

[2] panel work is designed to bend in an accident, the damage often looks
worse than it really is.



And, as I understand it, if it was entirely the other persons fault you are
entitled to have your car repaired even if the cost of the repair exceeds
it's value. Which can be a useful bargaining position when negotiating the
write off value.

In article ,
Peter Andrews wrote:
And, as I understand it, if it was entirely the other persons fault you
are entitled to have your car repaired even if the cost of the repair
exceeds it's value.

No. This would be patently ridiculous.

Which can be a useful bargaining position when negotiating the
write off value.

You certainly shouldn't accept the first offer, as this will be based on
the lowest trade price. And if an older car, the condition makes a big
difference, so one much better than average will be worth more. Some
evidence - like adverts from Auto Trader etc - might help and show you
mean business on rejecting their first offer.

--
*One of us is thinking about sex... OK, it's me.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:57:32 GMT, p cooper
wrote:

after the discussion when my old corsa was totalled, Im looking at a
replacement. As far as haggling is concerned whats the usual markup these
guys start at.?

I wonder. I'm amazed at how used car prices have inflated over the
past 15 years. I remember that in 1995, you could easily find 10-year
old cars with less than 90,000 miles for about £300. Nowadays you are
hard-preesed to find them for less than £1500. What is going on?
After all, new cars haven't gone up 500% over the past 15 years, have
they?

J

In article ,
Jimmy wrote:
I wonder. I'm amazed at how used car prices have inflated over the
past 15 years. I remember that in 1995, you could easily find 10-year
old cars with less than 90,000 miles for about £300. Nowadays you are
hard-preesed to find them for less than £1500. What is going on?
After all, new cars haven't gone up 500% over the past 15 years, have
they?

Dunno where you've been looking - high street garage perhaps?
The auctions are awash with bargain price 'recent' cars.

--
*Just give me chocolate and nobody gets hurt

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:56:39 GMT, "Peter Andrews"
wrote:
at a

And, as I understand it, if it was entirely the other persons fault you are
entitled to have your car repaired even if the cost of the repair exceeds
it's value. Which can be a useful bargaining position when negotiating the
write off value.

Nope. The MAXIMUM amount you are entitled to is the "Current market
value" (Which the insurance company decide) plus expenses.

If the repair costs are anywhere near the market value the insurance
company will make you an offer for writing off the vehicle.

sPoNiX

In article ,
sPONiX wrote:
The MAXIMUM amount you are entitled to is the "Current market
value" (Which the insurance company decide) plus expenses.

As I said, the insurance company may *try* and decide the value, but
you're under no obligation to accept it. Most will increase their offer if
you argue - preferably with evidence to back up your claim.

--
*Can fat people go skinny-dipping?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Peter Andrews" wrote in message
k...

snip

And, as I understand it, if it was entirely the other persons fault you
are
entitled to have your car repaired even if the cost of the repair exceeds
it's value. Which can be a useful bargaining position when negotiating
the
write off value.


No you are not, you may take salvage (and who is at fault doesn't matter)
but the settlement will be market value minus salvage value.

"Jimmy" wrote
| I wonder. I'm amazed at how used car prices have inflated over
| the past 15 years. I remember that in 1995, you could easily
| find 10-year old cars with less than 90,000 miles for about £300.
| Nowadays you are hard-preesed to find them for less than £1500.
| What is going on?

Increased costs for small garages, especially insurance and waste/scrap
disposal.

Owain

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 14:52:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Jimmy wrote:
I wonder. I'm amazed at how used car prices have inflated over the
past 15 years. I remember that in 1995, you could easily find 10-year
old cars with less than 90,000 miles for about £300. Nowadays you are
hard-preesed to find them for less than £1500. What is going on?
After all, new cars haven't gone up 500% over the past 15 years, have
they?

Dunno where you've been looking - high street garage perhaps?
The auctions are awash with bargain price 'recent' cars.

I dare say, but would you buy a car from an auction? I only ever did
it once. Never again will I buy a car without being able to drive and
test before I buy.

J

Car buying advice he
http://www.autonow.co.uk/buyersguide/BeforeuBuy.htm
Suprised at your comments re prices - I think 2nd prices are lower than
they've ever been in real terms taking inflation into account. People
are even giving away old bangers with a bit of MOT left - my daughter
has been driving a free VW golf for 2 years - it got a 2nd MOT but has
just failed so is now scrap. I was given a Saab 99 with 10 months MOT a
few years ago - scruffy but quite driveable for 2 years.
1500 quid nowadays will get you a pretty good car with 4 years or more
life left. Or 500 quid for petrol engined.
And they are better quality then they ever were - a deisel can do
250000 miles and still be OK.



Jacob

In message , Jimmy
writes
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:57:32 GMT, p cooper
wrote:

after the discussion when my old corsa was totalled, Im looking at a
replacement. As far as haggling is concerned whats the usual markup these
guys start at.?

I wonder. I'm amazed at how used car prices have inflated over the
past 15 years. I remember that in 1995, you could easily find 10-year
old cars with less than 90,000 miles for about £300. Nowadays you are
hard-preesed to find them for less than £1500. What is going on?
After all, new cars haven't gone up 500% over the past 15 years, have
they?

You are joking, aren't you

2nd hand prices are rock bottom ATM


--
geoff

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:36:26 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Jimmy wrote:
I dare say, but would you buy a car from an auction? I only ever did
it once.

Yes - I've bought several. It can be risky, of course, but some auctions
are much better than others. Some of the rougher ones seem to specialise
in selling worn out mini-cabs to unsuspecting punters. The trick is to
know what you're looking for.

Never again will I buy a car without being able to drive and
test before I buy.

Well, you pay dearly for this.

I'm sure it depends a lot on the auction, as you said. Last time I
went to our local one it struck me as a bit of a joke people
(including me, I confess) were paying about the same prices as they
would have from private newspaper ads, but without the opportunity to
try first. Yes, there certainly is risk involved. I never was much of
a gambler.

Most secondhand dealers source their cars
from auctions and put them straight on the forecourt with nothing more
than a clean. And a large markup.

Interesting point, assuming that;s correct. But of course, they are in
a better position to get things fixed cheaply if an auction
asquisition turns out to have a najor problem, I suspect. Or perhaps
they just shove it back in the same auction and let the next sucker
deal with it.

J

"Jimmy" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 23:36:26 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Jimmy wrote:
I dare say, but would you buy a car from an auction? I only ever did
it once.

Yes - I've bought several. It can be risky, of course, but some auctions
are much better than others. Some of the rougher ones seem to specialise
in selling worn out mini-cabs to unsuspecting punters. The trick is to
know what you're looking for.

Never again will I buy a car without being able to drive and
test before I buy.

Well, you pay dearly for this.

I'm sure it depends a lot on the auction, as you said. Last time I
went to our local one it struck me as a bit of a joke people
(including me, I confess) were paying about the same prices as they
would have from private newspaper ads, but without the opportunity to
try first. Yes, there certainly is risk involved. I never was much of
a gambler.

Most secondhand dealers source their cars
from auctions and put them straight on the forecourt with nothing more
than a clean. And a large markup.

Interesting point, assuming that;s correct. But of course, they are in
a better position to get things fixed cheaply if an auction
asquisition turns out to have a najor problem, I suspect. Or perhaps
they just shove it back in the same auction and let the next sucker
deal with it.

Most auctions, you can return the car within hours and get your money back.
A pro will know if a car is fine by looking under the bonnet, a walk around
and driving it.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

snip

Most auctions, you can return the car within hours and get your money
back.
A pro will know if a car is fine by looking under the bonnet, a walk
around
and driving it.


I beg to differ, as one who has had to put right cars that traders has done
the above on...

Jimmy wrote:

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:57:32 GMT, p cooper
wrote:


after the discussion when my old corsa was totalled, Im looking at a
replacement. As far as haggling is concerned whats the usual markup these
guys start at.?


I wonder. I'm amazed at how used car prices have inflated over the
past 15 years. I remember that in 1995, you could easily find 10-year
old cars with less than 90,000 miles for about £300. Nowadays you are
hard-preesed to find them for less than £1500. What is going on?
After all, new cars haven't gone up 500% over the past 15 years, have
they?

#
Actually I think tis is completely wrong.

You can still geta heap of junk suvb 400 quid, but cars last longer, and
a 90000 mile ten year old is acvtually a very decent and useable animal.

Which in the case of e.g. a morris oxford of my era, it would never have
been.



J

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:40:44 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


I wonder. I'm amazed at how used car prices have inflated over the
past 15 years. I remember that in 1995, you could easily find 10-year
old cars with less than 90,000 miles for about £300. Nowadays you are
hard-preesed to find them for less than £1500. What is going on?
After all, new cars haven't gone up 500% over the past 15 years, have
they?

#
Actually I think tis is completely wrong.

You can still geta heap of junk suvb 400 quid, but cars last longer, and
a 90000 mile ten year old is acvtually a very decent and useable animal.

Yeah, but you've still got to be very careful. Rusting sulls can still
scupper you even when the engine is only just run-in if the car is
10-yrs old, but little used.

Personally, I'm trying to get my financial maths hat to figure out
what is the most cost-effective price-range to spend on a car. (For
someone like me that wants a practical car that's cheap to run but
prformas na dhandles a bit better than average). Obviously it's not
£110,000 for a Ferrari, and obviously it's not £1000 for a car than
needs £500 worth of work every year... Somewhere in-between, but
where, I wonder. One has to take into account the cost of using credit
(well, I do, anyway).

I've noticed that one used-car dealer local to me ahs nothing but cars
priced between £4000 and £5000. Perhpas that's a clue... or perhaps
he's just got his needle stuck in the £4K-£5K groove.

A very rough rule of thumb I may have tentatively identified is that
cars such as I described above cost about £500 a year to own (not
including running costs). For example: A £500 car with a new MOT
will, on average, give you about one year of driving before you have
to scrap it to avoid undue expense. And a £1500 car will last about 3
years before the same thing happens.

Anyone agree with my calculation abobe, or do you humbly beg to
differ? I wanna know.

J

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:31:18 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


Most auctions, you can return the car within hours and get your money back.
A pro will know if a car is fine by looking under the bonnet, a walk around
and driving it.

AFAIKR, this was not the case with my local auction house - at least,
last time I red their terms which addmittedly was 13 years ago.

Consequently, every time I think of car auctions the big question pops
up in my pre-frontal lobe: "Why would someone want to sell their car
at auction?" and the cynical answer then pops up: "Because it's
probably a lemon and they don't want the buyer to be able to find out
what's wrong with it before they buy it." Call me a cynical old
so-'n-so.

I must pop over to that auction house and read the latest incarnation
of their Terms and Conditions. If they have modified them in favour of
the buyer, I will definitely look for a car there in the coming days.

Regardless of what the auctioneer's terms say, I wonder if there is
any consumer law that has the final say about whether you can take the
car back within 24 hours - cap in hand, lol - and demand your money
back, 'cause you ain't happy or whatever.

J

In article ,
Jimmy wrote:
Interesting point, assuming that;s correct. But of course, they are in
a better position to get things fixed cheaply if an auction
asquisition turns out to have a najor problem, I suspect. Or perhaps
they just shove it back in the same auction and let the next sucker
deal with it.

The trick is to find out where the car has come from. If it's just come
off lease - and you do get some high mileage older bargains - there's no
reason to expect it to have any faults at all - although you'd need to
check things like tyre wear or body damage which you can do without
driving.

Same with trade ins to a main dealer that are simply too old for them to
sell. When someone goes to a main dealer for either a new or recent
secondhand car, there's no reason to suspect the one they've traded in has
faults.

But a private sale 'banger' with half a dozen previous owners is quite
likely to be being sold because it's clapped.

However, to get the first two classes of cars, you'll have to go to a
large auction.

--
*Corduroy pillows are making headlines.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Most auctions, you can return the car within hours and get your money
back.

Only if it's sold with a warranty, or is not as described. And neither is
likely on a cheap car.

A pro will know if a car is fine by looking under the bonnet, a walk
around and driving it.

You can't drive a car at an auction. A pro will want to know the
provenance of a car more than almost anything else that can't be seen by
looking.

--
*Arkansas State Motto: Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Laugh.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Huge" wrote in message
...
snip

Me too. Used cars are *way* cheap. Auto Trader is chocker with what appear
to be perfectly good sub-£500 cars.

snip

Did anyone watch Top Gear tonight (Sun), they managed to by an old V6, all
mod-cons, high mileage (?) Volvo 7xx series from a Volvo dealer for 1 (one)
GBP - the car was an trade-in that wasn't worth sod all but would have cost
the dealer to dispose of at the scrap yard so happily sold it on for a quid
!

:::Jerry:::: wrote in message
...

"Huge" wrote in message
...
snip

Me too. Used cars are *way* cheap. Auto Trader is chocker with what
appear
to be perfectly good sub-£500 cars.

snip

Did anyone watch Top Gear tonight (Sun), they managed to by an old V6, all
mod-cons, high mileage (?) Volvo 7xx series from a Volvo dealer for 1
(one)
GBP - the car was an trade-in that wasn't worth sod all but would have
cost
the dealer to dispose of at the scrap yard so happily sold it on for a
quid
!




That's not unusual a friend's son works in a large posh main dealers and px'
s over 8 years old are sold for £10 to staff or trade, they just them out
the way Quick.
The £10 is just to cover admin, its were my Volvo 740 estate came from, it's
a strange feeling when the petrol you've just put in the tank is worth 3
times the cost of the car!

Mark wrote:
Jerry:::: wrote in message
...

"Huge" wrote in message
...
snip

Me too. Used cars are *way* cheap. Auto Trader is chocker with what
appear to be perfectly good sub-£500 cars.

snip

Did anyone watch Top Gear tonight (Sun), they managed to by an old
V6, all mod-cons, high mileage (?) Volvo 7xx series from a Volvo
dealer for 1 (one) GBP - the car was an trade-in that wasn't worth
sod all but would have cost the dealer to dispose of at the scrap
yard so happily sold it on for a quid !




That's not unusual a friend's son works in a large posh main dealers
and px' s over 8 years old are sold for £10 to staff or trade, they
just them out the way Quick.
The £10 is just to cover admin, its were my Volvo 740 estate came
from, it's a strange feeling when the petrol you've just put in the
tank is worth 3 times the cost of the car!

I bet paying the insurance on a £10 car is even more galling.

--
James...
www.jameshart.co.uk

"raden" wrote in message


I wonder. I'm amazed at how used car prices have inflated over the
past 15 years. I remember that in 1995, you could easily find 10-year
old cars with less than 90,000 miles for about £300. Nowadays you are
hard-preesed to find them for less than £1500. What is going on?
After all, new cars haven't gone up 500% over the past 15 years, have
they?
You are joking, aren't you
2nd hand prices are rock bottom ATM
I saw the Top Gear rerun tonight and watched Jeremy Clarckson scoop he
pool with the cheapest car for under a hundred quid.

He bought a realy nice old Volvo for one pound. It had 2 months MOT on
it too. One of the tests was to drive it into a brick wall with a
sandbank behind it. He hit it 10 mph faster than the others and it was
the only one to drive away.

As soon as I saw it, I was thinking I wouldn't mind one of them. Yes it
is a gas guzzler and it is an old car but it was also a nice one and for
100 quid I was thinking "Not bad, not bad at all."

Then he explained why it was so cheap. Apparently the dealers will take
them in to sell a new car but have to pay a hundred or so to recycle
them. He said that the lot was full of BMWs and stuff, all going for a
song.





--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"James Hart" wrote in message


Mark wrote:
That's not unusual a friend's son works in a large posh main dealers
and px' s over 8 years old are sold for £10 to staff or trade, they
just them out the way Quick.
The £10 is just to cover admin, its were my Volvo 740 estate came
from, it's a strange feeling when the petrol you've just put in the
tank is worth 3 times the cost of the car!
I bet paying the insurance on a £10 car is even more galling.
That is the problem isn't it?

That and stripping the interior to get rid of the smell of
urine/cats/spilled milk.

Still for a run around or a starter, especially if you just need it for
carting bags of cement around on weekends.

If you made a living travelling long distances regularly or just lost a
few bob every morning because it wouldn't start........ Nah...

OTOH, you wouldn't be paying for more than 3rd party and you wouldn't
worry about parking it on the side of the road even in a rough
neighbourhood.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Jimmy wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:40:44 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:



I wonder. I'm amazed at how used car prices have inflated over the
past 15 years. I remember that in 1995, you could easily find 10-year
old cars with less than 90,000 miles for about £300. Nowadays you are
hard-preesed to find them for less than £1500. What is going on?
After all, new cars haven't gone up 500% over the past 15 years, have
they?


#
Actually I think tis is completely wrong.

You can still geta heap of junk suvb 400 quid, but cars last longer, and
a 90000 mile ten year old is acvtually a very decent and useable animal.


Yeah, but you've still got to be very careful. Rusting sulls can still
scupper you even when the engine is only just run-in if the car is
10-yrs old, but little used.

Personally, I'm trying to get my financial maths hat to figure out
what is the most cost-effective price-range to spend on a car.

Save your time. I KNOW teh answer.

Its as cheap as you can get.

Sub £1000 cars and preferably sub £500.

In general even a cheap car will depreciate by £500-£1000 a year if its
anywhere new, let alone cost of serviceing.

An old banger that actually runs, for £500 that does a year with no
servicing, is good news. Of course getting rid of it is expensive, but
the normal trck round here is no taxc, no insurance, and set fire to it
afterwards, which makes it even cheaper.

The very worst cars to buy are brand ne, as tehy lose about 15% the
moment you drive them away, and the £1000-£3000 pound car, that is
basically a tarted up 500 quid one, and falls to pieces after 6 months.

Best deals if you want relaibiluty are teh ones that get traded for new
ones and cost aboutr 2/3rds te price - 4 years old, 50k on the clock.
Especially unpopular makes - skodas, automatic nissans etc etc.

(For
someone like me that wants a practical car that's cheap to run but
prformas na dhandles a bit better than average). Obviously it's not
£110,000 for a Ferrari, and obviously it's not £1000 for a car than
needs £500 worth of work every year... Somewhere in-between, but
where, I wonder. One has to take into account the cost of using credit
(well, I do, anyway).

No. Get the 500 quid car and CHUCK IT after a year. Sometimes they limp
on for two.

If realiabilituy is an issue go for middle aged as I said. 50-100k on
the clock, well looked after, and 4-8 years old.


I've noticed that one used-car dealer local to me ahs nothing but cars
priced between £4000 and £5000. Perhpas that's a clue... or perhaps
he's just got his needle stuck in the £4K-£5K groove.

Those will be cars as above, that he thinks are good enough to offer a
guarantee on.

'trade' cars that go for less, are a different market.



A very rough rule of thumb I may have tentatively identified is that
cars such as I described above cost about £500 a year to own (not
including running costs). For example: A £500 car with a new MOT
will, on average, give you about one year of driving before you have
to scrap it to avoid undue expense. And a £1500 car will last about 3
years before the same thing happens.

Anyone agree with my calculation abobe, or do you humbly beg to
differ? I wanna know.

That is pretty fair estimate. HOWEVET depending on your skills, you may
be able to get a car with some little problems, cheap, and fix those and
get several years out f a 5600 quid car..

Conversely if you get a timing belt go on a 60,000 mile car that cost
you 5 grand, and need new engine or part thereof....its more than 500
quid a year.


J

Jimmy wrote:

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:31:18 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Most auctions, you can return the car within hours and get your money back.
A pro will know if a car is fine by looking under the bonnet, a walk around
and driving it.


AFAIKR, this was not the case with my local auction house - at least,
last time I red their terms which addmittedly was 13 years ago.

Consequently, every time I think of car auctions the big question pops
up in my pre-frontal lobe: "Why would someone want to sell their car
at auction?" and the cynical answer then pops up: "Because it's
probably a lemon and they don't want the buyer to be able to find out
what's wrong with it before they buy it." Call me a cynical old
so-'n-so.

No. A lot of cars go to auction that have come into the trade as p/exes,
and are below the standard of the dealership.

If you atke a 12 year old Volvo and trade it fopr a newer one, in a
dealership,. they will take our old one and throw it straight into
auction, beacuse they don't want the responisbility of selling it.

If its relaible but atty, it will go on a long time, and some fly
operator may take it cheap, spry it up and flog it for a copuple of
grand profit. Or you might pick it up at a sensible price if no one
fancies it that day.



I must pop over to that auction house and read the latest incarnation
of their Terms and Conditions. If they have modified them in favour of
the buyer, I will definitely look for a car there in the coming days.

Regardless of what the auctioneer's terms say, I wonder if there is
any consumer law that has the final say about whether you can take the
car back within 24 hours - cap in hand, lol - and demand your money
back, 'cause you ain't happy or whatever.

J

In article , "Jimmy"
says...
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:31:18 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


Most auctions, you can return the car within hours and get your money back.
A pro will know if a car is fine by looking under the bonnet, a walk around
and driving it.

AFAIKR, this was not the case with my local auction house - at least,
last time I red their terms which addmittedly was 13 years ago.

Consequently, every time I think of car auctions the big question pops
up in my pre-frontal lobe: "Why would someone want to sell their car
at auction?" and the cynical answer then pops up: "Because it's
probably a lemon and they don't want the buyer to be able to find out
what's wrong with it before they buy it." Call me a cynical old
so-'n-so.

ISTM most of the cars sold at auction are trade-ins that the dealer
hasn't got room or time for, or private cars with short MOTs.
Occasionally you get a good private car but with an unrealistic
reserve, and some cars are tarted up nails that some Delboy is trying
to make a few quid on.

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:04:02 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Jimmy wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:40:44 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:



I wonder. I'm amazed at how used car prices have inflated over the
past 15 years. I remember that in 1995, you could easily find 10-year
old cars with less than 90,000 miles for about £300. Nowadays you are
hard-preesed to find them for less than £1500. What is going on?
After all, new cars haven't gone up 500% over the past 15 years, have
they?


#
Actually I think tis is completely wrong.

You can still geta heap of junk suvb 400 quid, but cars last longer, and
a 90000 mile ten year old is acvtually a very decent and useable animal.


Yeah, but you've still got to be very careful. Rusting sulls can still
scupper you even when the engine is only just run-in if the car is
10-yrs old, but little used.

Personally, I'm trying to get my financial maths hat to figure out
what is the most cost-effective price-range to spend on a car.

Save your time. I KNOW teh answer.

Its as cheap as you can get.

Sub £1000 cars and preferably sub £500.

In general even a cheap car will depreciate by £500-£1000 a year if its
anywhere new, let alone cost of serviceing.

An old banger that actually runs, for £500 that does a year with no
servicing, is good news. Of course getting rid of it is expensive, but
the normal trck round here is no taxc, no insurance, and set fire to it
afterwards, which makes it even cheaper.

I felt like crap when I got up this morning, but that made me chuckle!
If only semtex was available over-the-counter. Anyone else got any
(preferably more practical) tips on making a car dissapear
cost-efectively? Someone near here drove one over a cliff and let the
sea deal with it.

The very worst cars to buy are brand ne, as tehy lose about 15% the
moment you drive them away,

And some even 20%. With a £250K Ferrari Enzo, that's £50,000 down the
drain as soon as you drive it off the forecout. Makes ya wonder!

and the £1000-£3000 pound car, that is
basically a tarted up 500 quid one, and falls to pieces after 6 months.

Best deals if you want relaibiluty are teh ones that get traded for new
ones and cost aboutr 2/3rds te price - 4 years old, 50k on the clock.
Especially unpopular makes - skodas, automatic nissans etc etc.

(For
someone like me that wants a practical car that's cheap to run but
prformas na dhandles a bit better than average). Obviously it's not
£110,000 for a Ferrari, and obviously it's not £1000 for a car than
needs £500 worth of work every year... Somewhere in-between, but
where, I wonder. One has to take into account the cost of using credit
(well, I do, anyway).

No. Get the 500 quid car and CHUCK IT after a year. Sometimes they limp
on for two.

That was my exact philosophy from the very outset when I started
driving. I'm not sure if that was due to in-born financial shrewdness,
or lack of cash. Probably the latter.

If realiabilituy is an issue go for middle aged as I said. 50-100k on
the clock, well looked after, and 4-8 years old.

And made in Japan, perhaps... Jap cars strike me as more reliable, on
average than most.

I've noticed that one used-car dealer local to me ahs nothing but cars
priced between £4000 and £5000. Perhpas that's a clue... or perhaps
he's just got his needle stuck in the £4K-£5K groove.

Those will be cars as above, that he thinks are good enough to offer a
guarantee on.

'trade' cars that go for less, are a different market.



A very rough rule of thumb I may have tentatively identified is that
cars such as I described above cost about £500 a year to own (not
including running costs). For example: A £500 car with a new MOT
will, on average, give you about one year of driving before you have
to scrap it to avoid undue expense. And a £1500 car will last about 3
years before the same thing happens.

Anyone agree with my calculation abobe, or do you humbly beg to
differ? I wanna know.

That is pretty fair estimate. HOWEVET depending on your skills, you may
be able to get a car with some little problems, cheap, and fix those and
get several years out f a 5600 quid car..

I take it you meant a 500 to 600 quid car, 'cause I'd be fumin' if I
didn't get several years out of a £5600 car...

Conversely if you get a timing belt go on a 60,000 mile car that cost
you 5 grand, and need new engine or part thereof....its more than 500
quid a year.

Yes indeed. Things like that are so important to consider. My present
car got badly keyed the other day, on not one, but two sides. I can't
tell you how glad I was that the car was only worth a couple of
hundred quid and on its last legs. Likewise, when I forst got the car,
someone pranged it - during a parking manoever, I think. And the
perpetrator never owned up to it. It would have been en expensive
repair had the parts not been readily-available from a scrap yard.

A friend of mine once welded 4" steel tubes, cross-wise to the front
and rear of his car so that anyone doing the above sloppy parking
stunt on him, would most likely suffer a lot more damage than him.
Seems like a good ideea to me.

J

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 01:57:29 GMT, raden wrote:

In message , Jimmy
writes
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:57:32 GMT, p cooper
wrote:

after the discussion when my old corsa was totalled, Im looking at a
replacement. As far as haggling is concerned whats the usual markup these
guys start at.?

I wonder. I'm amazed at how used car prices have inflated over the
past 15 years. I remember that in 1995, you could easily find 10-year
old cars with less than 90,000 miles for about £300. Nowadays you are
hard-preesed to find them for less than £1500. What is going on?
After all, new cars haven't gone up 500% over the past 15 years, have
they?

You are joking, aren't you

2nd hand prices are rock bottom ATM

I probably need to hunt around a bit harder. I think what I want is a
Sierra (preferably the 4x4) (and possibly the estate version). Folks
in this group seem to favour Volvo estates, but they seem a bit too
cumbersome for my tastes. What do you all think of the Sierra as a
practical car for sub-£1000 ?

J

"Jimmy" wrote in message
...
snip

I probably need to hunt around a bit harder. I think what I want is a
Sierra (preferably the 4x4) (and possibly the estate version).

Hum....

Folks
in this group seem to favour Volvo estates, but they seem a bit too
cumbersome for my tastes. What do you all think of the Sierra as a
practical car for sub-£1000 ?


Ho, hum - err, where did I see that Volvo for sale....

A sub-£1000 4x4 Sierra estate, hope you have a larger budget for the repair
bills (or can afford to write off the purchase cost), you wont find one for
that sort of money that hasn't been 'boy-raced' or has major problems, or
both !

Nothing wrong with a 7xx series Volvo, unless image is more important than
being practical, or you live on a postage stamp plot.

Jimmy wrote:

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 01:57:29 GMT, raden wrote:


In message , Jimmy
writes

On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 08:57:32 GMT, p cooper
wrote:


after the discussion when my old corsa was totalled, Im looking at a
replacement. As far as haggling is concerned whats the usual markup these
guys start at.?

I wonder. I'm amazed at how used car prices have inflated over the
past 15 years. I remember that in 1995, you could easily find 10-year
old cars with less than 90,000 miles for about £300. Nowadays you are
hard-preesed to find them for less than £1500. What is going on?
After all, new cars haven't gone up 500% over the past 15 years, have
they?


You are joking, aren't you

2nd hand prices are rock bottom ATM


I probably need to hunt around a bit harder. I think what I want is a
Sierra (preferably the 4x4) (and possibly the estate version). Folks
in this group seem to favour Volvo estates, but they seem a bit too
cumbersome for my tastes. What do you all think of the Sierra as a
practical car for sub-£1000 ?


If you want a dirt cheap 4x4, get a series III landrover :-)

I'd go jap really. They never have the cachet of the german cars, and
don't rot like french and italian ones.

My ideal 'banger' would be something like a 10 year old Nissan or Toyota
- too big to appeal to the 'motoring on a thimble of petrol a day' and
big enough that it probably won't have been thrashed into a wreck.
So.

2 litre or bigger
Japanese
Possibly automatic.
tatty but sound.
Price £400



J

On 8 Jan 2005 15:33:39 -0800, wrote:

Car buying advice he
http://www.autonow.co.uk/buyersguide/BeforeuBuy.htm
Suprised at your comments re prices - I think 2nd prices are lower than
they've ever been in real terms taking inflation into account. People
are even giving away old bangers with a bit of MOT left - my daughter
has been driving a free VW golf for 2 years - it got a 2nd MOT but has
just failed so is now scrap. I was given a Saab 99 with 10 months MOT a
few years ago - scruffy but quite driveable for 2 years.
1500 quid nowadays will get you a pretty good car with 4 years or more
life left. Or 500 quid for petrol engined.
And they are better quality then they ever were - a deisel can do
250000 miles and still be OK.

Thanks for the comments. I've never owned a deisel. I've driven a
couple, years ago, but never owned one. In yesteryear, the usual
advice was: avoid them, because if the engine goes wrong, the cost a
fortune to put right. Things may have changed. What are they like
nowadays? I guess deisil is still much cheaper than petrol, yes? But
what about the pleasures of driving a deisel-engined car? Is it still
enough to make you end up on Prozac? Or are they making them so smooth
and quiet and vibration-free these days that you'd never guess you had
one under the bonnet?

J

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:52:04 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


If you want a dirt cheap 4x4, get a series III landrover :-)

I would, but the aerodynamics don't convince me somehow ;-)

I'd go jap really.

That's my inclination - except that Ford and vauxhall parts are so
much cheaper.

They never have the cachet of the german cars, and
don't rot like french and italian ones.

If you pick 'em right. Unfortunately my 1988 Honda succumbed to rust
terminally on its 17th year. The bill was £300 just to weld the rotten
sills. But I hear that rust-proofing improved after 1994 or so. I even
saw a 1994 Honda the other day with plastic sills (or plastic
sill-covers) That seems like a step in the right direction. God knows
why they want to make the sills a structural item anyway! Bring back
the old "chassis" and make it out of aluminium so it won;t rust.

My ideal 'banger' would be something like a 10 year old Nissan or Toyota
- too big to appeal to the 'motoring on a thimble of petrol a day' and
big enough that it probably won't have been thrashed into a wreck.

That category could suit me too - though 2-litre automatics tend to be
thristy. Most Jap engines seem to outlast the cars they are built
into, provided the user hasn't used battery acid in place of engine
oil! It's the body work you've gotta watch, it seems. Rust around the
sills, seatbelt mountings and suspension fixings et al.

So.

2 litre or bigger
Japanese
Possibly automatic.
tatty but sound.
Price £400

Sounds about right... thanks for the input. Gimme a 4x4 turbo-charged
Subaru estate - or even a hatch. Then I can always be first away from
the lights - even in the wet - and save a shipload of time over the
next few years! Screw this getting stuck behind a 25mph geriatric
lark! - especially when they honk at you angrily for overtaking them!
lol

J

The Natural Philosopher typed:

"Why would someone want to sell
their car at auction?" and the cynical answer then pops up: "Because
it's probably a lemon and they don't want the buyer to be able to
find out what's wrong with it before they buy it." Call me a cynical
old so-'n-so.

No. A lot of cars go to auction that have come into the trade as
p/exes, and are below the standard of the dealership.

If you atke a 12 year old Volvo and trade it fopr a newer one, in a
dealership,. they will take our old one and throw it straight into
auction,

Yes but do the maths on this, I live in a rural part of the country the
nearest auctions
for cars is 60 mile away so its going to take two chaps x hours and plus x
amount of fuel to take a £500 car for auction, or £50 for a breaker to
squash it when they could be selling a 25k new car.
the local market is awash with older Mondao/Cavalier size cars nobody wants
them, everyone wants new or nearly new clean Low mileage FSH cars within
this sector.
4x4s and small cars still sell ok down here even Metros! Strange world.
IMHO The Volvo 7 series is the most reliable practical versatile cheep to
buy throwaway skip on wheels car ever made. :-)

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 20:07:48 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Jimmy wrote:
Interesting point, assuming that;s correct. But of course, they are in
a better position to get things fixed cheaply if an auction
asquisition turns out to have a najor problem, I suspect. Or perhaps
they just shove it back in the same auction and let the next sucker
deal with it.

The trick is to find out where the car has come from. If it's just come
off lease - and you do get some high mileage older bargains - there's no
reason to expect it to have any faults at all - although you'd need to
check things like tyre wear or body damage which you can do without
driving.

Same with trade ins to a main dealer that are simply too old for them to
sell. When someone goes to a main dealer for either a new or recent
secondhand car, there's no reason to suspect the one they've traded in has
faults.

But a private sale 'banger' with half a dozen previous owners is quite
likely to be being sold because it's clapped.

However, to get the first two classes of cars, you'll have to go to a
large auction.

Thanks for the helpful observations. How about the so-called car
supermarkets. Are they a good place to buy a cheap car? If so, can
anyone recommend one in Dorset Hants or Wilts? (One with a lot of
cars and vans under £1000 would be ideal.)

Cheers,

J

Older deisels a bit noisier especially at tickover. Personally I find
that deisel chug sort of solid and re-assuring. Newer ones you wouldn't
know the difference. They can be maintenance free for life - just
change the oil, filter and cam belt at proper intervals and perhaps
change the glow plugs once or twice. I guess this is due to the fuel
itself being oil, unlike petrol which is a solvent and dilutes oil.
cheers

jacob

On 11 Jan 2005 13:05:24 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

writes:
Older deisels a bit noisier especially at tickover. Personally I find
that deisel chug sort of solid and re-assuring. Newer ones you wouldn't
know the difference...

... between them and combine harvester. If you were deaf-blind, anyway.

They can be maintenance free for life - just
change the oil, filter and cam belt at proper intervals and perhaps
change the glow plugs once or twice.

In what way is this "maintenance free"?

(I hate diesels, in case you haven't guessed.)

Why? (I just want to know if itps the same reason I've disliked them
in the past). You've got to admit they are cheaper to fuel though,
yes? And with petrol prices going ever skyward, that's got to be worth
thinking about, no?

J

On 11 Jan 2005 03:36:50 -0800, wrote:

Older deisels a bit noisier especially at tickover. Personally I find
that deisel chug sort of solid and re-assuring. Newer ones you wouldn't
know the difference. They can be maintenance free for life - just
change the oil, filter and cam belt at proper intervals and perhaps
change the glow plugs once or twice. I guess this is due to the fuel
itself being oil, unlike petrol which is a solvent and dilutes oil.
cheers

Yes, I'm probably still thinking of that cement mixer I used to work
with when I was 17, standing there all day breathing its fumes and
deafened by its clank-clank-clanking, and all the refinement of
Stephenson's Rocket.Though, I have to say, I drove a deisel Citroen in
the early 80's and it wasn't much nicer... I must have a go in a more
modern deisel car and see what I think.

Can anyone give us a clue as to how much cheaper a deisel car is to
run (regards the fuel cost, at least) than an equivalent-powered
petrol engined car? Is it as simple as looking at the difference in
price between a gallon of deisel and a gallon of petrol? Or is it more
complicated than that? I suspect it is, since they are not both likely
to do the same numer of miles per gallon, right?

Cheers,

J