We are looking at changing our boiler at some point in the near future.
The current one is a Stelrad thing, a huge, wall mounted affair, which
sits on the wall in the kitchen. WOuld like to change to a smaller unit
which will at the same time be shifted into the utility room (which isn't
built yet).

The heating guys that I know and have spoken to tell me to get a wriggle
on, to get it done before the law changes and condensing boilers are the
only option.

The setup at present is gravity HW, and pumped CH. It is a three bed
bungalow, with 6 rads and a towel rail. What would be a good make /
system to look at, and why are condensing boilers so frowned on by those
in the trade? I know the actual spec will have to be determined a bit
more accurately, I'm just after suggestions for makes. I'm a bit off
Suprima at the moment, as we had some sort of power spike here recently,
and 3 people that we know of had the PCB go toes up in their Suprimas -
common thing, or just unlucky?

Thanks

Gary

In article ,
Gary Cavie wrote:
The heating guys that I know and have spoken to tell me to get a wriggle
on, to get it done before the law changes and condensing boilers are the
only option.

Why? When my old lump finally dies, I'll get a condenser. Assuming you
have to buy a new boiler, they will pay for themselves over their life.

--
*If one synchronized swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Gary Cavie" wrote in message
t...

We are looking at changing our boiler at some point in the near future.
The current one is a Stelrad thing, a huge, wall mounted affair, which
sits on the wall in the kitchen. WOuld like to change to a smaller unit
which will at the same time be shifted into the utility room (which isn't
built yet).

The heating guys that I know and have spoken to tell me to get a wriggle
on, to get it done before the law changes and condensing boilers are the
only option.

The setup at present is gravity HW, and pumped CH. It is a three bed
bungalow, with 6 rads and a towel rail. What would be a good make /
system to look at, and why are condensing boilers so frowned on by those
in the trade? I know the actual spec will have to be determined a bit
more accurately, I'm just after suggestions for makes. I'm a bit off
Suprima at the moment, as we had some sort of power spike here recently,
and 3 people that we know of had the PCB go toes up in their Suprimas -
common thing, or just unlucky?

Gary,

The heating guy is way out of touch. the current crop of condensers are
very good and are a superior design to the boilers of 10 years ago. I
assume one bath and one shower. If I was you I would go for a mid to high
flowrate condensing combi.

You wont complain at the pefformance of this boiler. The Glow Worm is a
very good stainless steel hreat excahnger boiler.

Glow-Worm 38CXi Condensing Combi Boiler(Reference #108652)

• BTU's - 130,300
• kW - 38.2

• DHW Flow Rate - 15.5 L Per Min @ 35°C

• Height - 715mm
• Width - 450mm
• Depth - 334mm

• Sedbuk Rating A - 90.6%

• Built In Frost Protection

• Fully Modulating

PRICE INCLUDES DELVIERY

Price £934.13 Including VAT at 17.5%

http://www.discountedheating.co.uk

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:51:45 +0100, Gary Cavie
wrote:

We are looking at changing our boiler at some point in the near future.
The current one is a Stelrad thing, a huge, wall mounted affair, which
sits on the wall in the kitchen. WOuld like to change to a smaller unit
which will at the same time be shifted into the utility room (which isn't
built yet).

The heating guys that I know and have spoken to tell me to get a wriggle
on, to get it done before the law changes and condensing boilers are the
only option.

That's a nonsense, in that they are a much better option. There is a
likelihood of the law changing so that they become the only way to
achieve a specific efficeincy level, but the date has not been
announced.


The setup at present is gravity HW, and pumped CH. It is a three bed
bungalow, with 6 rads and a towel rail. What would be a good make /
system to look at, and why are condensing boilers so frowned on by those
in the trade?

Because this particular trade has a lot of old women who base their
opinions on what they hear in the plumber's merchants from their
mates. This is not universally true of course, but I have heard
misinformed conversations on a number of occasions.

There is always a grain of truth of course. Some of the early UK
manufactured products which consisted of a second heat exchanger
bolted into an existing design, really were very poor because the
parts were not designed to work in the environment of the slightly
acidic condensate.

In Germany and Holland condensing boilers have been commonplace for
more than 15 years.

I would recommend that you buy a German designed and preferably
manufactured product such as Vaillant, and you won't go too far wrong.

I know the actual spec will have to be determined a bit
more accurately, I'm just after suggestions for makes. I'm a bit off
Suprima at the moment, as we had some sort of power spike here recently,
and 3 people that we know of had the PCB go toes up in their Suprimas -
common thing, or just unlucky?

In the spec. range that you will need, there are a lot of good
products. Avoid any of the traditional British makes such as
Potterton.



Thanks

Gary

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news sorry, useful info snipped
Avoid any of the traditional British makes such as Potterton.

Are they really that bad. We've got a Potterton Flamingo which is 20 years
old and has only needed one repair (some thermocouple thingy).

In article ,
Graeme wrote:
Avoid any of the traditional British makes such as Potterton.

Are they really that bad. We've got a Potterton Flamingo which is 20
years old and has only needed one repair (some thermocouple thingy).

That's the trouble. 20 years ago Potterton were the 'Rolls-Royce' of
boilers. Recently they've been selling on reputation rather than merit.
And now have a dreadful name which will take some time to fix - if ever.

--
*In some places, C:\ is the root of all directories *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:51:45 +0100, Gary Cavie
wrote:

We are looking at changing our boiler at some point in the near future.
The current one is a Stelrad thing, a huge, wall mounted affair, which
sits on the wall in the kitchen. WOuld like to change to a smaller unit
which will at the same time be shifted into the utility room (which isn't
built yet).

The heating guys that I know and have spoken to tell me to get a wriggle
on, to get it done before the law changes and condensing boilers are the
only option.

That's a nonsense, in that they are a much better option. There is a
likelihood of the law changing so that they become the only way to
achieve a specific efficeincy level, but the date has not been
announced.


The setup at present is gravity HW, and pumped CH. It is a three bed
bungalow, with 6 rads and a towel rail. What would be a good make /
system to look at, and why are condensing boilers so frowned on by those
in the trade?

Because this particular trade has a lot of old women who base their
opinions on what they hear in the plumber's merchants from their
mates. This is not universally true of course, but I have heard
misinformed conversations on a number of occasions.

There is always a grain of truth of course. Some of the early UK
manufactured products which consisted of a second heat exchanger
bolted into an existing design, really were very poor because the
parts were not designed to work in the environment of the slightly
acidic condensate.

In Germany and Holland condensing boilers have been commonplace for
more than 15 years.

I would recommend that you buy a German designed and preferably
manufactured product such as Vaillant, and you won't go too far wrong.

I know the actual spec will have to be determined a bit
more accurately, I'm just after suggestions for makes. I'm a bit off
Suprima at the moment, as we had some sort of power spike here recently,
and 3 people that we know of had the PCB go toes up in their Suprimas -
common thing, or just unlucky?

In the spec. range that you will need, there are a lot of good
products. Avoid any of the traditional British makes such as
Potterton.

I've heard that Worcester (Bosch) are very good - any comments on those? An
installer has priced a Vaillant and a Worcester for me.

Peter.

"Graeme" wrote in message
...
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news sorry, useful info snipped
Avoid any of the traditional British makes such as Potterton.

Are they really that bad. We've got a Potterton Flamingo which is 20 years
old and has only needed one repair (some thermocouple thingy).

The Flamingo is a basic boiler. The current crop leave a lot to be desired.

"Snowman" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:51:45 +0100, Gary Cavie
wrote:

We are looking at changing our boiler at some point in the near future.
The current one is a Stelrad thing, a huge, wall mounted affair, which
sits on the wall in the kitchen. WOuld like to change to a smaller unit
which will at the same time be shifted into the utility room (which
isn't
built yet).

The heating guys that I know and have spoken to tell me to get a
wriggle
on, to get it done before the law changes and condensing boilers are
the
only option.

That's a nonsense, in that they are a much better option. There is a
likelihood of the law changing so that they become the only way to
achieve a specific efficeincy level, but the date has not been
announced.


The setup at present is gravity HW, and pumped CH. It is a three bed
bungalow, with 6 rads and a towel rail. What would be a good make /
system to look at, and why are condensing boilers so frowned on by
those
in the trade?

Because this particular trade has a lot of old women who base their
opinions on what they hear in the plumber's merchants from their
mates. This is not universally true of course, but I have heard
misinformed conversations on a number of occasions.

There is always a grain of truth of course. Some of the early UK
manufactured products which consisted of a second heat exchanger
bolted into an existing design, really were very poor because the
parts were not designed to work in the environment of the slightly
acidic condensate.

In Germany and Holland condensing boilers have been commonplace for
more than 15 years.

I would recommend that you buy a German designed and preferably
manufactured product such as Vaillant, and you won't go too far wrong.

I know the actual spec will have to be determined a bit
more accurately, I'm just after suggestions for makes. I'm a bit off
Suprima at the moment, as we had some sort of power spike here
recently,
and 3 people that we know of had the PCB go toes up in their Suprimas -
common thing, or just unlucky?

In the spec. range that you will need, there are a lot of good
products. Avoid any of the traditional British makes such as
Potterton.

I've heard that Worcester (Bosch) are very good - any comments on those?
An
installer has priced a Vaillant and a Worcester for me.

Vaillant are generally good. Parts are "very" expensive. W-B is good, but
went through a bad period after Bosch took them over. They appear to have
gotten better.

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 09:16:42 +0100, "Snowman"
wrote:



I've heard that Worcester (Bosch) are very good - any comments on those? An
installer has priced a Vaillant and a Worcester for me.

Peter.

Both have a good reputation, yes....


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

I've heard that Worcester (Bosch) are very good - any comments on those?

I had a Worcester Bosch fitted about a month ago, and the installer knew
something was wrong during commissioning. He had already told me it was
likely to be beyond anything he could fix, and that if it carried on I
would need to get one of their engineers out.

....This is sounding grim so far...

The same night it was commissioned it went out on fault 3 times, so I
spoke to the installer went along with the recommendation to contact them
direct.

I rang at 11am that morning (Thursday) and they said they would be onsite
Friday (yes, the next day) - the PCB was replaced and everything was
hunky-dory by 10am. Their engineer said something along the lines of he
"hoped it hadn`t put us off as its usually very good kit" - and in all
fairness, with service as efficient as that they`ve already been
recommended by us to anyone considering central heating !

--
Please add "[newsgroup]" in the subject of any personal replies via email
--- My new email address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ;-) ---

In message , Dave Plowman
writes
In article ,
Graeme wrote:
Avoid any of the traditional British makes such as Potterton.

Are they really that bad. We've got a Potterton Flamingo which is 20
years old and has only needed one repair (some thermocouple thingy).

That's the trouble. 20 years ago Potterton were the 'Rolls-Royce' of
boilers. Recently they've been selling on reputation rather than merit.
And now have a dreadful name which will take some time to fix - if ever.

Absoeffinlutely

A lot of my customers refuse to fit Potterton boilers any more. They're
just fed up with call backs when they don't work / fail prematurely etc
--
geoff

In message , Colin
Wilson writes
I've heard that Worcester (Bosch) are very good - any comments on those?

I had a Worcester Bosch fitted about a month ago, and the installer knew
something was wrong during commissioning. He had already told me it was
likely to be beyond anything he could fix, and that if it carried on I
would need to get one of their engineers out.

...This is sounding grim so far...

The same night it was commissioned it went out on fault 3 times, so I
spoke to the installer went along with the recommendation to contact them
direct.

I rang at 11am that morning (Thursday) and they said they would be onsite
Friday (yes, the next day) - the PCB was replaced and everything was
hunky-dory by 10am. Their engineer said something along the lines of he
"hoped it hadn`t put us off as its usually very good kit" - and in all
fairness, with service as efficient as that they`ve already been
recommended by us to anyone considering central heating !

24i ?
--
geoff

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave Plowman
writes
In article ,
Graeme wrote:
Avoid any of the traditional British makes such as Potterton.

Are they really that bad. We've got a Potterton Flamingo which is 20
years old and has only needed one repair (some thermocouple thingy).

That's the trouble. 20 years ago Potterton were the 'Rolls-Royce' of
boilers.

Someone here doth noweth nothingneth about boilers.

In message , IMM
writes

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave Plowman
writes
In article ,
Graeme wrote:
Avoid any of the traditional British makes such as Potterton.

Are they really that bad. We've got a Potterton Flamingo which is 20
years old and has only needed one repair (some thermocouple thingy).

That's the trouble. 20 years ago Potterton were the 'Rolls-Royce' of
boilers.

Someone here doth noweth nothingneth about boilers.

Yes, if you stopped posting it would avoid a lot of confusion

--
geoff

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Dave Plowman
writes
In article ,
Graeme wrote:
Avoid any of the traditional British makes such as Potterton.

Are they really that bad. We've got a Potterton Flamingo which is 20
years old and has only needed one repair (some thermocouple thingy).

That's the trouble. 20 years ago Potterton were the 'Rolls-Royce' of
boilers.

Someone here doth noweth nothingneth about boilers.


Yes, YOU !

In article , says...
In message , Dave Plowman
writes
In article ,
Graeme wrote:
Avoid any of the traditional British makes such as Potterton.

Are they really that bad. We've got a Potterton Flamingo which is 20
years old and has only needed one repair (some thermocouple thingy).

That's the trouble. 20 years ago Potterton were the 'Rolls-Royce' of
boilers. Recently they've been selling on reputation rather than merit.
And now have a dreadful name which will take some time to fix - if ever.

Absoeffinlutely

A lot of my customers refuse to fit Potterton boilers any more. They're
just fed up with call backs when they don't work / fail prematurely etc


Realy showing my ignorance here, but do oil boilers work on the same
principles as the various types of gas boiler? eg condensing, combi etc,
or is it a totally different ball game?

Any good references for explaining what all these different types are,
and how they work etc?

24i ?

28SiII

--
Please add "[newsgroup]" in the subject of any personal replies via email
--- My new email address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ;-) ---

"Gary Cavie" wrote in message
t...
In article , says...
In message , Dave Plowman
writes
In article ,
Graeme wrote:
Avoid any of the traditional British makes such as Potterton.

Are they really that bad. We've got a Potterton Flamingo which is 20
years old and has only needed one repair (some thermocouple thingy).

That's the trouble. 20 years ago Potterton were the 'Rolls-Royce' of
boilers. Recently they've been selling on reputation rather than merit.
And now have a dreadful name which will take some time to fix - if
ever.

Absoeffinlutely

A lot of my customers refuse to fit Potterton boilers any more. They're
just fed up with call backs when they don't work / fail prematurely etc

Realy showing my ignorance here, but do oil boilers work on the same
principles as the various types of gas boiler? eg condensing, combi etc,
or is it a totally different ball game?

Any good references for explaining what all these different types are,
and how they work etc?

From a user point of view the boilers are similar: system, combi, condensers
etc. The main difference is that they use different fuels and hence
burners. There are wall mounted oil combi's about, just like the gas
versions. Oil boilers do tend to be larger than gas boilers. Generally,
they also do not last as long.

Gas boilers make better condensing boilers, as condensate start to form at
theoretically 57C, whereas for oil it is 47C. Gas also contains far more
water per cubic metre of gas burnt.

Oil condensing boilers are very expensive and the payback to non-condensing
is very long, to the point were it may not be worth it. The difference in
price from gas non-condensing and condensing boilers now is marginal, and
going condenser is the only way. Next year most non-condensing gas boilers
will be phased out as they are too inefficient.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Gas also contains far more water per cubic metre of gas burnt.

More of the IMM 'understanding' of basic chemistry.

--
*Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"IMM" wrote
| Someone here doth noweth nothingneth about boilers.

'doth know' or 'knoweth'. Not both. Unleth your name ith Violet Elithabeth
and you're going to thcream and thcream and thcream until you're thick.

Owain

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:35:20 +0100, Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Gas also contains far more water per cubic metre of gas burnt.

More of the IMM 'understanding' of basic chemistry.

I guess the 'physical properties module' (see Eliza thread) was not
updated to include the difference in densities between liquids and gases.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 09:35:20 +0100, Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Gas also contains far more water per cubic metre of gas burnt.

More of the IMM 'understanding' of basic chemistry.

I guess the 'physical properties module' (see Eliza thread) was not
updated to include the difference in densities between liquids and gases.

It is obvious neither of you have a clue.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Gas also contains far more water per cubic metre of gas burnt.

More of the IMM 'understanding' of basic chemistry.

I guess the 'physical properties module' (see Eliza thread) was not
updated to include the difference in densities between liquids and
gases.

It is obvious neither of you have a clue.

Go on then, give us all a laugh. How much water did you say 'gas
contained'?

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Sun, 02 May 2004 15:29:20 +0100, Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Gas also contains far more water per cubic metre of gas burnt.

More of the IMM 'understanding' of basic chemistry.

I guess the 'physical properties module' (see Eliza thread) was not
updated to include the difference in densities between liquids and
gases.

It is obvious neither of you have a clue.

Go on then, give us all a laugh. How much water did you say 'gas
contained'?

I'm tempted to leave this thread alone.

It was clear that IMM meant to say something like there is more water in
burning natural gas than oil "per kg of
fuel burnt" but went and spoilt things by saying "per cubic metre".

It is just that the numbers don't stack up:
1 m^3 of natural gas has a mass of about 600g of which 150g is Hydrogen
which burns to give about 1.35kg of Water.

1m^3 of oil has about 800kg mass of which about 70% is hydrogen and 30% is
Carbon. Doing basic school chemistry shows that's about 130kg of hydrogen
which yeilds about 1170kg of Water.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 02 May 2004 15:29:20 +0100, Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Gas also contains far more water per cubic metre of gas burnt.

More of the IMM 'understanding' of basic chemistry.

I guess the 'physical properties module' (see Eliza thread) was not
updated to include the difference in densities between liquids and
gases.

It is obvious neither of you have a clue.

Go on then, give us all a laugh. How much water did you say 'gas
contained'?

I'm tempted to leave this thread alone.

It was clear that IMM meant to say something like there is more water in
burning natural gas than oil "per kg of
fuel burnt" but went and spoilt things by saying "per cubic metre".

It is just that the numbers don't stack up:
1 m^3 of natural gas has a mass of about 600g of which 150g is Hydrogen
which burns to give about 1.35kg of Water.

1m^3 of oil has about 800kg mass of which about 70% is hydrogen and 30% is
Carbon. Doing basic school chemistry shows that's about 130kg of hydrogen
which yeilds about 1170kg of Water.

Natural gas or fuel oil creates water as a by-product.
For each cubic meter of natural gas, theoretically 1.6 litres of water is
produced.
For each litre of fuel oil approximately 0.9 litres of water is produced. An
oil condensing boiler creates between 0.6 - 0.9 litres of condensate.

Take the BTU/hr that 1 cu metre of natural gas produces. Figure the amount
of oil you need to produce the same BTU/hr figure. Then compare the water
produced.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Natural gas or fuel oil creates water as a by-product.

At last. How many websites did you have to visit to find out this?

At least you have a clue now.

--
*If God had wanted me to touch my toes, he would have put them on my knees

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Sun, 02 May 2004 22:31:29 +0100, Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Natural gas or fuel oil creates water as a by-product.

At last. How many websites did you have to visit to find out this?

At least you have a clue now.

This reminds me of a line from a monologue by the late actor Lord
Bernard Miles:

"But I had a tidy good education. I could read when I was 18, only o'
course not to understand it. "

http://www.monologues.co.uk/Over_the_Gate.htm


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
Natural gas or fuel oil creates water as a by-product.

At last. How many websites did you have to visit to find out this?

At least you have a clue now.

This reminds me of a line from a monologue by the late actor Lord
Bernard Miles:

"But I had a tidy good education. I could read when I was 18, only o'
course not to understand it. "

Heh heh. But our resident 'professional' goes one further - he writes
things he doesn't understand.

--
*Reality? Is that where the pizza delivery guy comes from?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 May 2004 22:31:29 +0100, Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Natural gas or fuel oil creates water as a by-product.

At last. How many websites did you have to visit to find out this?

This one is as thick as they come. he wears yellow DeWalt boots. Yes he
does, and works in an office.

This reminds me of a line from a monologue by the late actor Lord
Bernard Miles:

He said "go to work on an egg"

On Tue, 4 May 2004 01:09:15 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 02 May 2004 22:31:29 +0100, Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Natural gas or fuel oil creates water as a by-product.

At last. How many websites did you have to visit to find out this?

This one is as thick as they come. he wears yellow DeWalt boots. Yes he
does, and works in an office.

This reminds me of a line from a monologue by the late actor Lord
Bernard Miles:

He said "go to work on an egg"

He may well have done, but it was coined by Fay Weldon.

At least I suppose it brings us back to the topic of boilers.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Natural gas or fuel oil creates water as a by-product.

At last. How many websites did you have to visit to find out this?

This one is as thick as they come. he wears yellow DeWalt boots. Yes he
does, and works in an office.

This reminds me of a line from a monologue by the late actor Lord
Bernard Miles:

He said "go to work on an egg"

He certainly did in an advert. But then you believe everything you read or
hear in them, so no surprise there.

--
*He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless, dead.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

I've heard that Worcester (Bosch) are very good - any comments on those?
An
installer has priced a Vaillant and a Worcester for me.

I have a Worcester Bosch Greenstar 28HE (condensing system boiler). It seems
well put together and I have had no problems with it at all. Not so much as
a single unexplained lock out. The flow temperature readout on the display
is pretty useful, too. It is also much cheaper than some of the other well
regarded makes (i.e. Vaillant, MAN). I got mine for 750 quid including VAT.

Anyway, do you have gas or oil, then? I'm talking about natural gas, here.

Christian.