Errm, I hesitate to ask this here, seeing as it's a diy group,
but I've come up against a job I can't tackle myself so I've
got to Get A Little Man In. The thing is, I'm putting the job
out to tender (it's electrical stuff - domestic, but beyond my
capabilities) and I've asked the various electricians to quote
an hourly rate rather than a flat rate for the job (long
story, don't ask). What I'm not at all sure of is how much is
reasonable as an hourly rate for domestic wiring jobs. I
don't suppose any of you have any idea on the subject, do you?

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 00:52:44 -0000, Karen strung
together this:

don't suppose any of you have any idea on the subject, do you?

Depending where you are, and who you ask, anywhere from £10ph to
£30ph. Most decent electricians will be around the £20ph on average,
unless you live in London....
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

Karen wrote:
Errm, I hesitate to ask this here, seeing as it's a diy group,
but I've come up against a job I can't tackle myself so I've
got to Get A Little Man In. The thing is, I'm putting the job
out to tender (it's electrical stuff - domestic, but beyond my
capabilities) and I've asked the various electricians to quote
an hourly rate rather than a flat rate for the job (long
story, don't ask). What I'm not at all sure of is how much is
reasonable as an hourly rate for domestic wiring jobs. I
don't suppose any of you have any idea on the subject, do you?

I'd say this is just asking for the sparks to work slowly...

Si

"Mungo \"two sheds\" Toadfoot" said...
I've asked the various electricians to quote
an hourly rate rather than a flat rate for the job (long
story, don't ask). What I'm not at all sure of is how much is
reasonable as an hourly rate for domestic wiring jobs. I
don't suppose any of you have any idea on the subject, do you?

I'd say this is just asking for the sparks to work slowly...

I see your point; however I've got someone in mind and I know
he's constrained for time. We're desperately trying to get a
very big job done before the end of the year... 'nuff said?
:-)

said...
On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 00:52:44 -0000, Karen strung
together this:

don't suppose any of you have any idea on the subject, do you?

Depending where you are, and who you ask, anywhere from £10ph to
£30ph. Most decent electricians will be around the £20ph on average,
unless you live in London....

Thanks, that's very helpful and gives me a good idea what to
expect.

Karen wrote:
"Mungo \"two sheds\" Toadfoot" said...
I've asked the various electricians to quote
an hourly rate rather than a flat rate for the job (long
story, don't ask). What I'm not at all sure of is how much is
reasonable as an hourly rate for domestic wiring jobs. I
don't suppose any of you have any idea on the subject, do you?

I'd say this is just asking for the sparks to work slowly...

I see your point; however I've got someone in mind and I know
he's constrained for time. We're desperately trying to get a
very big job done before the end of the year... 'nuff said?
:-)

Fairy nuff

Electrical work can take a long time though - you might want to get a few
quotes for the whole job, if you haven't already, then compare it to how
long matey says it will take.

Si

"Mungo \"two sheds\" Toadfoot" said...
Karen wrote:
"Mungo \"two sheds\" Toadfoot" said...
I've asked the various electricians to quote
an hourly rate rather than a flat rate for the job (long
story, don't ask). What I'm not at all sure of is how much is
reasonable as an hourly rate for domestic wiring jobs. I
don't suppose any of you have any idea on the subject, do you?

I'd say this is just asking for the sparks to work slowly...

I see your point; however I've got someone in mind and I know
he's constrained for time. We're desperately trying to get a
very big job done before the end of the year... 'nuff said?
:-)

Fairy nuff

Electrical work can take a long time though - you might want to get a few
quotes for the whole job, if you haven't already, then compare it to how
long matey says it will take.

BTDT - it's a massive job and the problem has been persuading
anyone to quote for it at all :-( A friend of mine, who's not
prepared to actually do the job, has given me a rough idea of
what it should cost, so what with that and the rates quoted by
Lurch above I'll be able to bargain with a certain amount of
confidence. Thanks for your concern though - I don't suppose
you fancy completely rewiring a large late Victorian house
with thick external stone-clad walls and the original covings
at the top of 10-12 foot high rooms, all in the space of a
fortnight do you? D&R ;-)

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:42:29 -0000, Karen strung
together this:

BTDT - it's a massive job and the problem has been persuading
anyone to quote for it at all :-( A friend of mine, who's not
prepared to actually do the job, has given me a rough idea of
what it should cost, so what with that and the rates quoted by
Lurch above I'll be able to bargain with a certain amount of
confidence. Thanks for your concern though - I don't suppose
you fancy completely rewiring a large late Victorian house
with thick external stone-clad walls and the original covings
at the top of 10-12 foot high rooms, all in the space of a
fortnight do you? D&R ;-)

Not if you're going to start haggling. My approach is you get what you
pay for, and it costs what it costs.
A,though I'm quite happy to give you advice here, I certainly wouldn't
want you as a customer.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

In article ,
Karen wrote:
BTDT - it's a massive job and the problem has been persuading
anyone to quote for it at all :-( A friend of mine, who's not
prepared to actually do the job, has given me a rough idea of
what it should cost, so what with that and the rates quoted by
Lurch above I'll be able to bargain with a certain amount of
confidence. Thanks for your concern though - I don't suppose
you fancy completely rewiring a large late Victorian house
with thick external stone-clad walls and the original covings
at the top of 10-12 foot high rooms, all in the space of a
fortnight do you? D&R ;-)

That's hardly a massive job on the scale of 1 to 10, since there are many
large Victorian houses that will need re-wiring from time to time. Doing
an entire block of flats might be, though. ;-)

Also, imposing a timescale on this type of work is never a good idea -
unless the trader has agreed it's possible, and charged accordingly.
Anything can be done within a timescale if you through enough resources at
it, but this may not be the most economical way.

--
*Starfishes have no brains *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

said...
I don't suppose
you fancy completely rewiring a large late Victorian house
with thick external stone-clad walls and the original covings
at the top of 10-12 foot high rooms, all in the space of a
fortnight do you? D&R ;-)

Not if you're going to start haggling. My approach is you get what you
pay for, and it costs what it costs.
And,though I'm quite happy to give you advice here, I certainly wouldn't
want you as a customer.

Neither would I, to be honest g. Time to come clean: The
person I have in mind now to do the job is someone I have
known for a long time and is a Usenet regular posting to
several groups on a daily basis. He wasn't sure how much he
should charge (can't do it for nowt 'cos he needs the money
but OTOH I'm not exactly rolling in it either) and neither was
I. So, I decided to ask here to see if anyone knew of
sensible figures - it occurred to me that he might be reading
the NG as well - without disclosing to him whence I'd got my
information. Sorry if you felt misled; it wasn't deliberate,
honestly. Incidentally, I'm not normally too much of a
haggler; I have, however, learnt over the years that most
people will accept a lower rate than that which they quote
initially...

Lurch wrote:

Depending where you are, and who you ask, anywhere from £10ph to
£30ph. Most decent electricians will be around the £20ph on average,
unless you live in London....

Our frienfdly sparky said it's not the time taken for the small job that
costs the money, but all the testing and paperwork required after that
makes "small" jobs expensive.

--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://gymratz.co.uk/hot-seat.htm - Live web-cam! (sometimes)

said...
In article ,
Karen wrote:
BTDT - it's a massive job and the problem has been persuading
anyone to quote for it at all :-( A friend of mine, who's not
prepared to actually do the job, has given me a rough idea of
what it should cost, so what with that and the rates quoted by
Lurch above I'll be able to bargain with a certain amount of
confidence. Thanks for your concern though - I don't suppose
you fancy completely rewiring a large late Victorian house
with thick external stone-clad walls and the original covings
at the top of 10-12 foot high rooms, all in the space of a
fortnight do you? D&R ;-)

That's hardly a massive job on the scale of 1 to 10, since there are many
large Victorian houses that will need re-wiring from time to time. Doing
an entire block of flats might be, though. ;-)

Just try getting people to quote for it though. So far I have
contacted over a dozen people within a 20 mile radius
(roughly) and of those only one said he could do the job. He,
however, isn't returning phone calls, and so hasn't come in
with a quote or a start date. Meanwhile the delay is costing
me money because I've had to empty my house and put things
into storage.

Also, imposing a timescale on this type of work is never a good idea -
unless the trader has agreed it's possible, and charged accordingly.
Anything can be done within a timescale if you throw enough resources at
it, but this may not be the most economical way.

It wasn't I who imposed the time limit. The person who will
do the job is highly competent but unregistered as an
electrician. The new regulations on electrical work come into
force on Jan 1st, so the job must be finished by then because
otherwise I won't be able to afford to have the work done.
Granted the new ruling is going to be next to impossible to
police I'd rather have it all done in time 'just in case'.
(Just in case of what - I don't know)

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:54:45 GMT, "Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk"
strung together this:

Our frienfdly sparky said it's not the time taken for the small job that
costs the money, but all the testing and paperwork required after that
makes "small" jobs expensive.

Quite right.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

Karen wrote:

It wasn't I who imposed the time limit. The person who will
do the job is highly competent but unregistered as an
electrician. The new regulations on electrical work come into
force on Jan 1st, so the job must be finished by then because
otherwise I won't be able to afford to have the work done.

Ah, if *that's* your source of deadline, you can ease off. Part P kicks
in on 01jan05 for *new* work, but work *started* before then can
complete as late as 31mar05. I don't know how precisely "started" is
defined - I don't think getting an initial estimate would count, but
just buying the materials might; and certainly lifting boards and
starting to route one or two of the 12 or 15 eventual circuits (you said
it was a rambling Victorian pile, right?) should put you very clearly on
the "having started" side of the line.

That said, for a job as meaty as this one being done by a knowledgeable
non-professional, I'd pony up the miserable 50-60 quid for a subsequent
installation inspection by a reputable local sparks (ask around, not on
the Net but among friends and colleagues)...

Stefek

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:56:21 -0000, Karen wrote:



It wasn't I who imposed the time limit. The person who will
do the job is highly competent but unregistered as an
electrician. The new regulations on electrical work come into
force on Jan 1st, so the job must be finished by then because
otherwise I won't be able to afford to have the work done.
Granted the new ruling is going to be next to impossible to
police I'd rather have it all done in time 'just in case'.
(Just in case of what - I don't know)

If the house isn't at present occupied, is it a "dwelling"? Part P
only covers dwellings...

--
Frank Erskine

Karen wrote:

Errm, I hesitate to ask this here, seeing as it's a diy group,
but I've come up against a job I can't tackle myself so I've
got to Get A Little Man In. The thing is, I'm putting the job
out to tender (it's electrical stuff - domestic, but beyond my
capabilities) and I've asked the various electricians to quote
an hourly rate rather than a flat rate for the job (long
story, don't ask). What I'm not at all sure of is how much is
reasonable as an hourly rate for domestic wiring jobs. I
don't suppose any of you have any idea on the subject, do you?

About 30 quid an hour, or 150 a day.

snip
information. Sorry if you felt misled; it wasn't deliberate,
honestly. Incidentally, I'm not normally too much of a
haggler; I have, however, learnt over the years that most
people will accept a lower rate than that which they quote
initially...

Surely if they accept a lower rate than quoted, then

a) They are desperate for work (Not many decent traders are!)
b) They are reducing the quality of the job either with cheaper materials
and or workmanship
or c) They overpriced the job in the first place and tried to con you out of
your cash.

So why would you want to use somebody that drops their price so easily?

Dave Jones

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 21:43:08 -0000, "Dave Jones"
strung together this:

Surely if they accept a lower rate than quoted, then

a) They are desperate for work (Not many decent traders are!)
b) They are reducing the quality of the job either with cheaper materials
and or workmanship
or c) They overpriced the job in the first place and tried to con you out of
your cash.

So why would you want to use somebody that drops their price so easily?

This is exactly why I don't do any of the above, you get a dodgy
reputation for being a con merchant\rougharse\pushover. I'm not.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

said...

snip
information. Sorry if you felt misled; it wasn't deliberate,
honestly. Incidentally, I'm not normally too much of a
haggler; I have, however, learnt over the years that most
people will accept a lower rate than that which they quote
initially...

Surely if they accept a lower rate than quoted, then

b) They are reducing the quality of the job either with cheaper materials
and or workmanship
or c) They overpriced the job in the first place and tried to con you out of
your cash.

So why would you want to use somebody that drops their price so easily?

B) I usually find that a compromise can be reached whereby the
price can be reduced by the worker and the specifications of
the job can be reduced by me.
C) It wouldn't be the first time...

said...
Karen wrote:

It wasn't I who imposed the time limit. The person who will
do the job is highly competent but unregistered as an
electrician. The new regulations on electrical work come into
force on Jan 1st, so the job must be finished by then because
otherwise I won't be able to afford to have the work done.

Ah, if *that's* your source of deadline, you can ease off. Part P kicks
in on 01jan05 for *new* work, but work *started* before then can
complete as late as 31mar05.

Thanks, I didn't realise that. Mind, we do have to get as
much done as possible, since the man concerned is only
available at weekends after the new year.

I don't know how precisely "started" is
defined - I don't think getting an initial estimate would count, but
just buying the materials might; and certainly lifting boards and
starting to route one or two of the 12 or 15 eventual circuits (you said
it was a rambling Victorian pile, right?) should put you very clearly on
the "having started" side of the line.

Well, it's not it's not /that/ rambling, but we've lived here
for a while and we've accumulated more stuff than you'd think
possible. Just to give you an idea, there'll be over 30 bin
bags going out for the dustmen this week...

That said, for a job as meaty as this one being done by a knowledgeable
non-professional, I'd pony up the miserable 50-60 quid for a subsequent
installation inspection by a reputable local sparks (ask around, not on
the Net but among friends and colleagues)...

I know an excellent sparky; he's already fitted a secondary
consumer unit for me so the main work can start, but the rest
of the job is too big for his as he has other commitments
including his own house that he's renovating. I'll have a
word with him to see if he can pop in occasionally while the
work's underway, and then at the end to give it a certificate.
Thanks.

said...
On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:56:21 -0000, Karen wrote:



It wasn't I who imposed the time limit. The person who will
do the job is highly competent but unregistered as an
electrician. The new regulations on electrical work come into
force on Jan 1st, so the job must be finished by then because
otherwise I won't be able to afford to have the work done.
Granted the new ruling is going to be next to impossible to
police I'd rather have it all done in time 'just in case'.
(Just in case of what - I don't know)

If the house isn't at present occupied, is it a "dwelling"? Part P
only covers dwellings...

Hello Frank :-)

It's definitely occupied; *very* occupied. Whether it classes
as a dwelling is open to question however since a casual
observer might consider it more akin to a garden shed than a
house, albeit a very large one.

said...
What I'm not at all sure of is how much is
reasonable as an hourly rate for domestic wiring jobs. I
don't suppose any of you have any idea on the subject, do you?

About 30 quid an hour, or 150 a day.

That accords with what Lurch said it might cost at the top end
of the market. Thanks.

In article ,
Karen wrote:
About 30 quid an hour, or 150 a day.

That accords with what Lurch said it might cost at the top end of the
market. Thanks.

If it's London, I'm afraid 150 for an eight hour day is anything but the
top end of the market.

--
*Some days we are the flies; some days we are the windscreen.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

said...
In article ,
Karen wrote:
About 30 quid an hour, or 150 a day.

That accords with what Lurch said it might cost at the top end of the
market. Thanks.

If it's London, I'm afraid 150 for an eight hour day is anything but the
top end of the market.

Just as well it's not London then, isn't it. I'm rather
thankful that I shook its dust from my shoes twenty years ago.
I'm in no hurry to return, either.

It wasn't I who imposed the time limit. The person who will
do the job is highly competent but unregistered as an
electrician. The new regulations on electrical work come into
force on Jan 1st, so the job must be finished by then because
otherwise I won't be able to afford to have the work done.

It's not like CORGI. Even after the new regulations come in, there is no
requirement for the contractor to be registered. It is just that they won't
have the exemption to sign off the building regulations notice and you'll
have to get the BCO round, who will swear a lot at all the ridiculous
bureaucracy of it all.

Christian.

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 01:35:42 +0000, Lurch
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 00:52:44 -0000, Karen strung
together this:

don't suppose any of you have any idea on the subject, do you?

Depending where you are, and who you ask, anywhere from £10ph to
£30ph. Most decent electricians will be around the £20ph on average,
unless you live in London....

30 per hour * 1720 (average hours per year) = 51600 per year (before
expences/tax). 2500 hours is easilly possible, which is 75 grand a
year.

Time for me to change jobs I think ..........

Rick

In article ,
Rick Dipper wrote:
30 per hour * 1720 (average hours per year) = 51600 per year (before
expences/tax). 2500 hours is easilly possible, which is 75 grand a
year.

Time for me to change jobs I think ..........

Sounds good. But remember a jobbing tradesman will not have continuous
employment, and will also have a fair amount of work that can't be charged
for.

--
*I wish the buck stopped here. I could use a few.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Rick Dipper wrote:
On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 01:35:42 +0000, Lurch
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 00:52:44 -0000, Karen strung
together this:

don't suppose any of you have any idea on the subject, do you?

Depending where you are, and who you ask, anywhere from £10ph to
£30ph. Most decent electricians will be around the £20ph on average,
unless you live in London....

30 per hour * 1720 (average hours per year) = 51600 per year (before
expences/tax). 2500 hours is easilly possible, which is 75 grand a
year.

Time for me to change jobs I think ..........

This is the typical calculation that many employees (= permies) do and
get the idea that anyone earning "£30/hour" must be knee deep in
money.

It's not true!

Firstly it's unlikely that an electrician or plumber or similar will
be getting that £30/hour for 40 hours/week throughout the year.

Secondly there are the odd incidental expenses which have to come out
of that income:-
Running a vehicle probably
Tools etc.
Insurance
Books, education, whatever

Thirdly there are things like holidays, sick leave, etc. which you
don't get paid for when you're not an employee.

I'm a Software Engineer, I used to be a contractor on £35+/hour, now
I'm permanent on a bit over £40k and it feels to me like I'm
significantly better off now than I was before.

--
Chris Green

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:46:30 GMT, Rick Dipper
strung together this:

30 per hour * 1720 (average hours per year) = 51600 per year (before
expences/tax). 2500 hours is easilly possible, which is 75 grand a
year.

Time for me to change jobs I think ..........

Er, yes well. I'm not going to tell you how much I am on but I don't
get 75k a year. Think you need to have a look at your figures a bit
more closely.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

Lurch wrote:


30 per hour * 1720 (average hours per year) = 51600 per year (before
expences/tax). 2500 hours is easilly possible, which is 75 grand a
year.

Time for me to change jobs I think ..........


Er, yes well. I'm not going to tell you how much I am on but I don't
get 75k a year. Think you need to have a look at your figures a bit
more closely.

Amen to that! 30 quid per *chargeable* hour is a long way off 30 quid
reliably gotten for every possible working hour in a year! The Dipster
wrote, "2500 hours is easily possible". That's 50 hours every single
week, with two weeks off in the whole year, and *every* *single* hour of
a 10-hour working day if Mon-Fri, or 7 hours every single day. Each one
charged. No travelling time, no filling-in-the-books time, no days
without appointments, no time spent quoting for jobs, no householders
absent after making an appointment, no other trades running late and
making it impossible to do the work booked. (Bever mind, the site
manager always pays out a full day rate anyway).

At least, that's the life in the world where you need Kevlar
anti-trotter helmets.

Back on planet Earth, I imagine that as a good tradesman you're lucky to
get much above 70% of your time "bookable", and that you have to trade
off whole-week work (new builds, commercial jobs) which give you a lower
hourly rate but a full week of work at say 80% of the nominal
"hourly*40" figure, against the hassle of quoting for and doing "little"
jobs, and guessing which ones are the householders-from-hell who'll
refuse to pay when they find the new sockets don't "match" the old ones
(in a different room, mind).

Me, I'm glad I've an interesting, well-paid, "permanent" job, and I'm
happy to pay non-bull****ting tradespeople decent rates for a job well
done - while tackling minor stuff or stuff I'm familiar with for myself...

Stefek

"Stefek Zaba" wrote in message
...
Lurch wrote:


30 per hour * 1720 (average hours per year) = 51600 per year (before
expences/tax). 2500 hours is easilly possible, which is 75 grand a
year.

Time for me to change jobs I think ..........


Er, yes well. I'm not going to tell you how much I am on but I don't
get 75k a year. Think you need to have a look at your figures a bit
more closely.

Amen to that! 30 quid per *chargeable* hour is a long way off 30 quid
reliably gotten for every possible working hour in a year! The Dipster
wrote, "2500 hours is easily possible". That's 50 hours every single
week, with two weeks off in the whole year, and *every* *single* hour of
a 10-hour working day if Mon-Fri, or 7 hours every single day. Each one
charged. No travelling time, no filling-in-the-books time, no days
without appointments, no time spent quoting for jobs, no householders
absent after making an appointment, no other trades running late and
making it impossible to do the work booked. (Bever mind, the site
manager always pays out a full day rate anyway).

At least, that's the life in the world where you need Kevlar
anti-trotter helmets.

Back on planet Earth, I imagine that as a good tradesman you're lucky to
get much above 70% of your time "bookable", and that you have to trade
off whole-week work (new builds, commercial jobs) which give you a lower
hourly rate but a full week of work at say 80% of the nominal
"hourly*40" figure, against the hassle of quoting for and doing "little"
jobs, and guessing which ones are the householders-from-hell who'll
refuse to pay when they find the new sockets don't "match" the old ones
(in a different room, mind).

Me, I'm glad I've an interesting, well-paid, "permanent" job, and I'm
happy to pay non-bull****ting tradespeople decent rates for a job well
done - while tackling minor stuff or stuff I'm familiar with for myself...

Stefek


Two hours of free estimates, and six hours of chargeable work time per day
is usually what I work it out as being. I always said that I wouldn't work
Sundays when I first started on my own, but within a few months that went
straight out the window. You have to get to the job on time and most local
customers don't like you to put travelling expenses on their bill, well not
as a separate item anyway, so this has to be distributed around a bit.

Up keep of vehicles and tools is another big expense for someone on their
own time. You also have to stand around in suppliers and deal with reps',
accountants, lawyers, the tax man, Etc. Etc. Etc. and all in your own time.

God ! I wish I could earn 75K in a year. Total through put for the
business maybe, but actual in pocket earnings, it would be fantastic. :-)

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
| Plumbers beware. The lead time to train people for an industry
| where skilled personnel are in short supply and command a premium
| can be several years, but when it is satisfied the rates will tumble.
| The true professions like lawyers, etc, know this and regulate numbers
| by fair means or foul.

I'm sure the various plumbers' organisations are considering their positions
and given the amount of cash-in-hand plumbing work goes on the govt will
probably view the idea of Part P For Plumbers favourably. On safety grounds
of course.

Owain