Dear all,

Someone is bound to know this so here goes.

I'm replacing my Cheratl heating system and boiler soon. I am currntly
running CH from a solid fuel boiler (Parkray Cumbria 111). I would like
to replace it with a Combi of some kind but I am undecided as to what to
run it from. Mains gas is probably uneconomical to install as I'm quite
a way from the gas main, so I'm left with the choice of LPG or Oil.

I've heard from diffrent people that LPG is more expensive than mains
gas. Some say a third more others say 3-4 times more. Others have said
that oil is cheaper than mains gas, can't beleive this myself as
everyone would have oil! So I'm a bit confused.

Can anyone tell me, or point me to, the relative costs of Mains Gas, LPG
and Oil? I'm not after specifics just a relative cost of heating say a
typical 3 bedroom semi or whatever on each fuel so I can decide which is
going to be best for me to go for.

Thanks

Jimmy

"Jimmy Gibson" wrote in message
...
Dear all,

Someone is bound to know this so here goes.

I'm replacing my Cheratl heating system and boiler soon. I am currntly
running CH from a solid fuel boiler (Parkray Cumbria 111). I would like
to replace it with a Combi of some kind but I am undecided as to what to
run it from. Mains gas is probably uneconomical to install as I'm quite
a way from the gas main, so I'm left with the choice of LPG or Oil.

Oil is MUCH cheaper than LPG nowadays. We did the sums and are in the
process of changing at the moment.

But mains gas is cheaper still if you can get it installed.

"G&M" wrote in message ...
"Jimmy Gibson" wrote in message
...
Dear all,

Someone is bound to know this so here goes.

I'm replacing my Cheratl heating system and boiler soon. I am currntly
running CH from a solid fuel boiler (Parkray Cumbria 111). I would like
to replace it with a Combi of some kind but I am undecided as to what to
run it from. Mains gas is probably uneconomical to install as I'm quite
a way from the gas main, so I'm left with the choice of LPG or Oil.

Oil is MUCH cheaper than LPG nowadays. We did the sums and are in the
process of changing at the moment.

But mains gas is cheaper still if you can get it installed.

Not true. You are right about LPG vs oil but mains gas is not cheaper.

Oil is definitely the cheapest central heating fuel, the disadvantages
vs gas are all about convenience - i.e. no oil tank, no smell of
burning oil etc. I believe Oil burning boilers require slightly more
maintenance than gas appliances due to the heavier fuel.

Stephen

Jimmy Gibson wrote in news:408D2FE6.6070808
@unn.ac.uk:

I've heard from diffrent people that LPG is more expensive than mains
gas. Some say a third more others say 3-4 times more. Others have said
that oil is cheaper than mains gas, can't beleive this myself as
everyone would have oil! So I'm a bit confused.

Can anyone tell me, or point me to, the relative costs of Mains Gas, LPG
and Oil? I'm not after specifics just a relative cost of heating say a
typical 3 bedroom semi or whatever on each fuel so I can decide which is
going to be best for me to go for.

I can't remember how much mains gas costs, but if you have the option, go
for it. We have LPG here, and it's expensive - something like 60 quid a
month for a detached 5-bedroom house - and we've also find that it's hard
to get people to work on it because it's very slightly non-standard.

Our neighbours went to LPG from solid fuel recently, and they ended up
doing a gas fitting qualification and DIY'd the whole thing, because no-one
was interested in being paid to do the work.

There is no mains gas here.

We've considered switching to oil, but that means no gas fires (or gas hob
if you like those).

I also find that although oil doesn't produce a lot of smoke, my lungs do
notice it if I'm near an oil-fired house with the boiler going - though
they aren't as bad as the fumes from solid fuel boilers, which really get
me wheezing (I have mild asthma).

Victoria

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:21:03 +0100, Victoria Clare wrote:

We've considered switching to oil, but that means no gas fires (or
gas hob if you like those).

But you can have a woodburner with boiler for backup when the power
goes off. B-)

As for a gas hob. Yes you can, running of a stand alone propane
cylinder. A big one will last ages and costs peanuts to be "refilled".

I also find that although oil doesn't produce a lot of smoke, my
lungs do notice it if I'm near an oil-fired house with the boiler
going

I guess it depends where in vents, ours is at the top of a 20' flue no
fumes at ground level. I wouldn't so keen on having a balanced flue
venting at head height.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in
ll.com:

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:21:03 +0100, Victoria Clare wrote:

We've considered switching to oil, but that means no gas fires (or
gas hob if you like those).

But you can have a woodburner with boiler for backup when the power
goes off. B-)

Well OK, but you then have to find somewhere to put a big ugly orange
bottle, and carry the damn thing up and down steps to refill it.

And yes, a real fire is nice, but I just don't want to spend my life
clearing out cinders, chopping wood to stock the woodshed, and lugging it
in to stoke the thing.

Fuel should not be something you have to set time aside to organise, in my
view!

Our power supply is not *that* unreliable, and powercuts (usually announced
well in advance) are a good excuse for a nice meal out ;-)

Each to their own.

Victoria

"Stephen Fasham" wrote in message
om...

Oil is MUCH cheaper than LPG nowadays. We did the sums and are in the
process of changing at the moment.

But mains gas is cheaper still if you can get it installed.

Not true. You are right about LPG vs oil but mains gas is not cheaper.

Oil is definitely the cheapest central heating fuel, the disadvantages
vs gas are all about convenience - i.e. no oil tank, no smell of
burning oil etc. I believe Oil burning boilers require slightly more
maintenance than gas appliances due to the heavier fuel.

Heating oil has risen almost 15% in the past three weeks. Unless you're
getting mains gas from some rip off scheme it is cheaper. Of course mains
gas may rise soon but at the current time it is cheaper and over time
generally is.

Avoid LPG, VERY expensive. We don't have mains gas here and I had Oil
installed back in November, not sure how it compares to the cost of mains
gas but my last lot of Oil cost me 19p per litre, 900 litres cost me around
£180. I expect to only use around two tanks worth of oil a year, its no
hassle set an account up with a supplier and they'll come and top your tank
up when ever you want, they do mine ever 4 months.


"Jimmy Gibson" wrote in message
...
Dear all,

Someone is bound to know this so here goes.

I'm replacing my Cheratl heating system and boiler soon. I am currntly
running CH from a solid fuel boiler (Parkray Cumbria 111). I would like
to replace it with a Combi of some kind but I am undecided as to what to
run it from. Mains gas is probably uneconomical to install as I'm quite
a way from the gas main, so I'm left with the choice of LPG or Oil.

I've heard from diffrent people that LPG is more expensive than mains
gas. Some say a third more others say 3-4 times more. Others have said
that oil is cheaper than mains gas, can't beleive this myself as
everyone would have oil! So I'm a bit confused.

Can anyone tell me, or point me to, the relative costs of Mains Gas, LPG
and Oil? I'm not after specifics just a relative cost of heating say a
typical 3 bedroom semi or whatever on each fuel so I can decide which is
going to be best for me to go for.

Thanks

Jimmy

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:51:02 +0100, Jimmy Gibson
wrote:

Dear all,

Someone is bound to know this so here goes.

I'm replacing my Cheratl heating system and boiler soon. I am currntly
running CH from a solid fuel boiler (Parkray Cumbria 111). I would like
to replace it with a Combi of some kind but I am undecided as to what to
run it from. Mains gas is probably uneconomical to install as I'm quite
a way from the gas main, so I'm left with the choice of LPG or Oil.

I've heard from diffrent people that LPG is more expensive than mains
gas. Some say a third more others say 3-4 times more. Others have said
that oil is cheaper than mains gas, can't beleive this myself as
everyone would have oil! So I'm a bit confused.

Can anyone tell me, or point me to, the relative costs of Mains Gas, LPG
and Oil? I'm not after specifics just a relative cost of heating say a
typical 3 bedroom semi or whatever on each fuel so I can decide which is
going to be best for me to go for.

Thanks

Jimmy

Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!

Rick

Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!

Rick

Maybe, but how much real estate do you need and what are the economics of a system,
including instal costs to provide a 4 bedroomed detached house with heat and hot water
year round when oil and gas are available at a cost of 1 or 2 p per kwH ?

I am not saying its bad, just wondering if its economically viable at the moment in the UK
?


Nick

Rick Dipper wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:51:02 +0100, Jimmy Gibson
wrote:

Dear all,

Someone is bound to know this so here goes.

I'm replacing my Cheratl heating system and boiler soon. I am currntly
running CH from a solid fuel boiler (Parkray Cumbria 111). I would like
snip
Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!

But, electricity isn't much less than 4 times the price of gas.
Slightly less wow.

Kerry Hoskin wrote:
Avoid LPG, VERY expensive. We don't have mains gas here and I had Oil
installed back in November, not sure how it compares to the cost of mains
gas but my last lot of Oil cost me 19p per litre, 900 litres cost me around
?180. I expect to only use around two tanks worth of oil a year, its no
hassle set an account up with a supplier and they'll come and top your tank
up when ever you want, they do mine ever 4 months.

1l, call it 600g = 26MJ or so.
(most hydrocarbons are around 44MJ/Kg).
That's around 8 KWh, or around 2.2p/unit.
Slightly dearer than mains gas, according to my last bill.
But several times cheaper than electric.

Ian Stirling wrote:

Kerry Hoskin wrote:

Avoid LPG, VERY expensive. We don't have mains gas here and I had Oil
installed back in November, not sure how it compares to the cost of mains
gas but my last lot of Oil cost me 19p per litre, 900 litres cost me around
?180. I expect to only use around two tanks worth of oil a year, its no
hassle set an account up with a supplier and they'll come and top your tank
up when ever you want, they do mine ever 4 months.


1l, call it 600g = 26MJ or so.
(most hydrocarbons are around 44MJ/Kg).
That's around 8 KWh, or around 2.2p/unit.
Slightly dearer than mains gas, according to my last bill.
But several times cheaper than electric.


That is consistent with figures I glanced atwhen comparing cots obn
various Agas.

Cheapest at the moment is gas, then oil, after that off peak and LPG
similar, and on peak way higher than anything.

Ian Stirling wrote:
Kerry Hoskin wrote:

Avoid LPG, VERY expensive. We don't have mains gas here and I had Oil
installed back in November, not sure how it compares to the cost of mains
gas but my last lot of Oil cost me 19p per litre, 900 litres cost me around
?180. I expect to only use around two tanks worth of oil a year, its no
hassle set an account up with a supplier and they'll come and top your tank
up when ever you want, they do mine ever 4 months.


1l, call it 600g = 26MJ or so.
(most hydrocarbons are around 44MJ/Kg).
That's around 8 KWh, or around 2.2p/unit.
Slightly dearer than mains gas, according to my last bill.
But several times cheaper than electric.

Are these figures for LPG?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| Jimmy Gibson | Email : |
| Senior System Developer | phone : +44 191 227 4501 |
| Zone 2 IT Support Team | fax : +44 191 227 3662 |
| Northumbria University | |
| Ellison Building |-----------------------------------|
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| Newcastle upon Tyne | failure to failure without losing |
| NE1 8ST | your enthusiasm. |
| ENGLAND | - Sir Winston Spencer Churchill |
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Rick Dipper wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:51:02 +0100, Jimmy Gibson
wrote:

Dear all,

Someone is bound to know this so here goes.

I'm replacing my Cheratl heating system and boiler soon. I am
currntly
running CH from a solid fuel boiler (Parkray Cumbria 111). I would
like
snip
Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!

But, electricity isn't much less than 4 times the price of gas.
Slightly less wow.

You can get fridges which run on gas - could this be scaled up to a heat
a house?

Jimmy Gibson wrote:
Ian Stirling wrote:
Kerry Hoskin wrote:

Avoid LPG, VERY expensive. We don't have mains gas here and I had Oil
installed back in November, not sure how it compares to the cost of mains
gas but my last lot of Oil cost me 19p per litre, 900 litres cost me around
?180. I expect to only use around two tanks worth of oil a year, its no
hassle set an account up with a supplier and they'll come and top your tank
up when ever you want, they do mine ever 4 months.


1l, call it 600g = 26MJ or so.
(most hydrocarbons are around 44MJ/Kg).
That's around 8 KWh, or around 2.2p/unit.
Slightly dearer than mains gas, according to my last bill.
But several times cheaper than electric.

Are these figures for LPG?

No, oil.
44MJ/Kg is a reasonable estimate for any hydrocarbon.

"Neil Jones" wrote
| Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
| 400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!
| But, electricity isn't much less than 4 times the price of gas.
| Slightly less wow.

Of course, for people who can't get that nice cheap mains gas ...

| You can get fridges which run on gas - could this be scaled up to a heat
| a house?

At this time of year, perhaps cooling a house would be more appropriate.
Gas-fired air conditioning?

Owain

"nick smith" wrote in message
...
Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!
Maybe, but how much real estate do you need and what are the economics of
a system,
including instal costs to provide a 4 bedroomed detached house with heat
and hot water
year round when oil and gas are available at a cost of 1 or 2 p per kwH ?

I am not saying its bad, just wondering if its economically viable at the
moment in the UK

Unfortunately installation appears to start at about £8k and work upwards so
they never get to a payback situation for many users. Problem is you need a
double stage compressor system if you want hot water and radiators, whereas
the cheaper units sometimes quoted only supply underfloor and pre-heat to
the water tank before an immersion heater.

What I really don't understand is why all these units run on electrictity.
If they used oil or gas the running costs would be under half and they would
then be economically viable.

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:13:00 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!

But, electricity isn't much less than 4 times the price of gas.
Slightly less wow.

Hi,

If you don't have mains gas and could get 600% efficiency and aircon
too it starts to look a lot more convincing, plus there's no need for
oil or LPG delivery and storage.

Even if electicity generation is only 50% efficient it will create 3x
less CO2 than conventional heating, so it's pretty good from a green
perspective.

cheers,
Pete.

"Rick Dipper" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:51:02 +0100, Jimmy Gibson
wrote:

Dear all,

Someone is bound to know this so here goes.

I'm replacing my Cheratl heating system and boiler soon. I am currntly
running CH from a solid fuel boiler (Parkray Cumbria 111). I would like
to replace it with a Combi of some kind but I am undecided as to what to
run it from. Mains gas is probably uneconomical to install as I'm quite
a way from the gas main, so I'm left with the choice of LPG or Oil.

I've heard from diffrent people that LPG is more expensive than mains
gas. Some say a third more others say 3-4 times more. Others have said
that oil is cheaper than mains gas, can't beleive this myself as
everyone would have oil! So I'm a bit confused.

Can anyone tell me, or point me to, the relative costs of Mains Gas, LPG
and Oil? I'm not after specifics just a relative cost of heating say a
typical 3 bedroom semi or whatever on each fuel so I can decide which is
going to be best for me to go for.

Thanks

Jimmy

Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!

The capital cost of a ground source heat pump is horrendous. The payback
period is looooooooong.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Neil Jones" wrote
| Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
| 400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!
| But, electricity isn't much less than 4 times the price of gas.
| Slightly less wow.

Of course, for people who can't get that nice cheap mains gas ...

| You can get fridges which run on gas - could this be scaled up to a heat
| a house?

At this time of year, perhaps cooling a house would be more appropriate.
Gas-fired air conditioning?

Absorption units are available. But expensive.

"G&M" wrote in message
...

"nick smith" wrote in message
...
Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!
Maybe, but how much real estate do you need and what are the economics
of
a system,
including instal costs to provide a 4 bedroomed detached house with heat
and hot water
year round when oil and gas are available at a cost of 1 or 2 p per kwH
?

I am not saying its bad, just wondering if its economically viable at
the
moment in the UK

Unfortunately installation appears to start at about £8k and work upwards
so
they never get to a payback situation for many users. Problem is you need
a
double stage compressor system if you want hot water and radiators,
whereas
the cheaper units sometimes quoted only supply underfloor and pre-heat to
the water tank before an immersion heater.

What I really don't understand is why all these units run on electrictity.
If they used oil or gas the running costs would be under half and they
would
then be economically viable.

The next phase of boilers under R&D, looks promising and appear likely to be
introduced, is the Zeolithe heat pump, which runs on natural gas, or LPG
gas, for the provision of domestic heating and hot water. Currently these
units are floor mounted and resemble a typical boiler in appearance.
Zeolithe heating appliance's use less energy and are more
environment-friendly than electric heat pumps and gas boilers. It provides
considerably higher output levels than the current conventional and
condensing boilers. Carbon-dioxide emissions are reduced by approximately
20 to 30%.

Pete C wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:13:00 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!

But, electricity isn't much less than 4 times the price of gas.
Slightly less wow.

Hi,

If you don't have mains gas and could get 600% efficiency and aircon
too it starts to look a lot more convincing, plus there's no need for
oil or LPG delivery and storage.


Even if electicity generation is only 50% efficient it will create 3x
less CO2 than conventional heating, so it's pretty good from a green
perspective.

Of course, if you could get small 24*7 generators, doing the CHP
thing and putting the exhaust heat into the house, and the low-grade
residum into the heat source, plus using the shaft power to run a
compressor, then that would pretty much beat anything.

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Pete C wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 23:13:00 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!

But, electricity isn't much less than 4 times the price of gas.
Slightly less wow.

Hi,

If you don't have mains gas and could get 600% efficiency and aircon
too it starts to look a lot more convincing, plus there's no need for
oil or LPG delivery and storage.


Even if electicity generation is only 50% efficient it will create 3x
less CO2 than conventional heating, so it's pretty good from a green
perspective.

Of course, if you could get small 24*7 generators, doing the CHP
thing and putting the exhaust heat into the house, and the low-grade
residum into the heat source, plus using the shaft power to run a
compressor, then that would pretty much beat anything.

And the payback period would be a lifetime. Better spend the money on high
insulation, air-tightness and passive solar, etc.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Ian Stirling wrote:

Of course, if you could get small 24*7 generators, doing the CHP
thing and putting the exhaust heat into the house, and the low-grade
residum into the heat source, plus using the shaft power to run a
compressor, then that would pretty much beat anything.

Heh, I'm working on something similar. Generators work best at constant
load so I'm fixing up an immersion heater as a ballast load and planning
to run the exhaust through a coil in a separate calorifier.

The calorifier will have to be a strong, expensive stainless job. The
exhaust may rot a lesser one very quickly. It will generate much heat (the
IC engine produces more heat than turning power), so you will require a vast
amount of hot water storage to make it anywhere near viable.

G&M wrote:

"nick smith" wrote in message
...

Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!

Maybe, but how much real estate do you need and what are the economics of

a system,

including instal costs to provide a 4 bedroomed detached house with heat

and hot water

year round when oil and gas are available at a cost of 1 or 2 p per kwH ?

I am not saying its bad, just wondering if its economically viable at the

moment in the UK

Unfortunately installation appears to start at about £8k and work upwards so
they never get to a payback situation for many users. Problem is you need a
double stage compressor system if you want hot water and radiators, whereas
the cheaper units sometimes quoted only supply underfloor and pre-heat to
the water tank before an immersion heater.

What I really don't understand is why all these units run on electrictity.
If they used oil or gas the running costs would be under half and they would
then be economically viable.




Becasue the efficiencuy loss of a small gas engine to run the pumps
cancels out the lower running costs. Fuel cells may ultimately change that.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
G&M wrote:

"nick smith" wrote in message
...

Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!

Maybe, but how much real estate do you need and what are the economics
of

a system,

including instal costs to provide a 4 bedroomed detached house with heat

and hot water

year round when oil and gas are available at a cost of 1 or 2 p per kwH
?

I am not saying its bad, just wondering if its economically viable at
the

moment in the UK

Unfortunately installation appears to start at about £8k and work
upwards so
they never get to a payback situation for many users. Problem is you
need a
double stage compressor system if you want hot water and radiators,
whereas
the cheaper units sometimes quoted only supply underfloor and pre-heat
to
the water tank before an immersion heater.

What I really don't understand is why all these units run on
electrictity.
If they used oil or gas the running costs would be under half and they
would
then be economically viable.

Becasue the efficiencuy loss of a small gas engine to run the pumps
cancels out the lower running costs. Fuel cells may ultimately change
that.

They may, but be prepared to wait a long time.

IMM wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Ian Stirling wrote:

Of course, if you could get small 24*7 generators, doing the CHP
thing and putting the exhaust heat into the house, and the low-grade
residum into the heat source, plus using the shaft power to run a
compressor, then that would pretty much beat anything.

Heh, I'm working on something similar. Generators work best at constant
load so I'm fixing up an immersion heater as a ballast load and planning
to run the exhaust through a coil in a separate calorifier.

The calorifier will have to be a strong, expensive stainless job. The
exhaust may rot a lesser one very quickly. It will generate much heat (the
IC engine produces more heat than turning power), so you will require a vast
amount of hot water storage to make it anywhere near viable.

Conventional IC engines are pretty close to breakeven, if they are
run on cheap fuel, and the result compared to electricity.
If you add in the heating, it can be an overall win.
(neglecting maintainance, and capital costs, which is the biggie.)

Insulation is indeed generally easier, as are many other measures
in general.

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Ian Stirling wrote:

Of course, if you could get small 24*7 generators, doing the CHP
thing and putting the exhaust heat into the house, and the low-grade
residum into the heat source, plus using the shaft power to run a
compressor, then that would pretty much beat anything.

Heh, I'm working on something similar. Generators work best at constant
load so I'm fixing up an immersion heater as a ballast load and
planning
to run the exhaust through a coil in a separate calorifier.

The calorifier will have to be a strong, expensive stainless job. The
exhaust may rot a lesser one very quickly. It will generate much heat
(the
IC engine produces more heat than turning power), so you will require a
vast
amount of hot water storage to make it anywhere near viable.

Conventional IC engines are pretty close to breakeven, if they are
run on cheap fuel, and the result compared to electricity.
If you add in the heating, it can be an overall win.
(neglecting maintainance, and capital costs, which is the biggie.)

The problem with Combined Heat & Power is that it is expensive to run using
even the most economical diesel or natural gas generator. Most of the time
there is little power being
used in a house, with power usage tending to be bursty, yet the unit has to
run in case of demand and to run the numerous times clocks in a house.

The only way to make it feasible is to store the output of the generator in
stored hot water, which requires a "very" large thermal store.

I believe an engine which is a cross between a turbine and an IC engine is
being developed in Holland. The inventors are English. This promises to be
an excellent choice over piston units being initially developed for large
scale CHP applications. The inventors initially developed it for vehicles,
and say it is scalable, as piston engines are, to almost any application.
Fuel consumption in vehicles is predicted to be around 3 times better. So in
10 years you may be getting 120 mpg with vastly reduced emissions in a mid
sized car. or running your house on one. It can run on many fuels, so
natural gas powered and connected to the grid, we need far fewer power
stations.

Insulation is indeed generally easier,
as are many other measures
in general.

It is best to ignore machines and concentrate on the building fabric and use
solar gain. Merely installing highly insulated shutters, that are closed at
night (the Victorians used shutters a lot) can save a hell of a lot of heat
that would normally drift off out into the night via the windows. So solar
gain during the day and keep it in at night. Then there is the security
aspect too.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:47:56 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

Of course, if you could get small 24*7 generators, doing the CHP
thing and putting the exhaust heat into the house, and the low-grade
residum into the heat source, plus using the shaft power to run a
compressor, then that would pretty much beat anything.

Either that or one of these micro CHP sterling engine boilers. If they
are 20% efficient at generating electricity and drives a 600%
efficient heat pump then you'd get 200% efficiency overall (80% +
120%). Should cut gas bills in half which isn't too bad.

cheers,
Pete.

"Pete C" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:47:56 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

Of course, if you could get small 24*7 generators, doing the CHP
thing and putting the exhaust heat into the house, and the low-grade
residum into the heat source, plus using the shaft power to run a
compressor, then that would pretty much beat anything.

Either that or one of these micro CHP sterling engine boilers. If they
are 20% efficient at generating electricity and drives a 600%
efficient heat pump


But most heat pumps are 400% at best.


then you'd get 200% efficiency overall (80% +
120%). Should cut gas bills in half which isn't too bad.

cheers,
Pete.

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...
Ian Stirling wrote:

Kerry Hoskin wrote:

Avoid LPG, VERY expensive. We don't have mains gas here and I had Oil
installed back in November, not sure how it compares to the cost of mains
gas but my last lot of Oil cost me 19p per litre, 900 litres cost me around
?180. I expect to only use around two tanks worth of oil a year, its no
hassle set an account up with a supplier and they'll come and top your tank
up when ever you want, they do mine ever 4 months.


1l, call it 600g = 26MJ or so.
(most hydrocarbons are around 44MJ/Kg).
That's around 8 KWh, or around 2.2p/unit.
Slightly dearer than mains gas, according to my last bill.
But several times cheaper than electric.


That is consistent with figures I glanced atwhen comparing cots obn
various Agas.

Cheapest at the moment is gas, then oil, after that off peak and LPG
similar, and on peak way higher than anything.

4 bedroom/sitting room/living kitchen cottage nr. Edinburgh; oil CH £300 p.a.

Rob

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 21:23:42 +0100, "G&M" wrote:


But most heat pumps are 400% at best.

This'll do it:

http://www.daiseikai.com/

Or if you have a broadband connection:

www.daiseikai.com/image/aircon_cata.pdf

cheers,
Pete.

"IMM" wrote in message ...
"Rick Dipper" wrote in message
...

Some info about heat pumps:

Electrically powered compression type pumps can do 3x to 4x heat
transfer, but this is a max figure, and drops as outdoor temp falls.
Thats the gotcha.

Gas powered absorption pumps are hopelessly inefficient, and are
simply a non starter for space heating.


Soil heat recovery systems are even cheeper .............
400% efficient, for each 1 unit you put in, you get 4 out - wow !!

The capital cost of a ground source heat pump is horrendous. The payback
period is looooooooong.

Air source is way cheaper, and sounds diyable. Does someone here know
more about it?


BTW one form of heating that can pay is flat plate solar space
heating. You'll still need the convetional CH though.


Regards, NT

On 30 Apr 2004 05:52:31 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:

"Rick Dipper" wrote in message
...

Some info about heat pumps:

Electrically powered compression type pumps can do 3x to 4x heat
transfer, but this is a max figure, and drops as outdoor temp falls.
Thats the gotcha.
Hi,

There are ones available in Japan that have a heat transfer of around
6 or above:

Toshiba:
http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/web/body?wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.daiseikai.com%2Findex _j2.htm&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2
http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/web/body/?wb_url=http://www.daiseikai.com/eco/index_j.htm&wb_lp=JAEN

Hitachi:
http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/web/body?wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fkadenfan.hitachi.co.jp%2F ra%2Faircon%2Fproducts%2Frase22s.htm&wb_lp=JAEN&wb _dis=2

Daikin:
http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/web/body?wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fec.daikinaircon.com%3A809 0%2Fecatalog%2FDKCA001%2Findex.html&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_ dis=2

Mistubishi:
http://www.mhi.co.jp/aircon/cs/products/home/catalog/04srac_a_1/pdf/p007.pdf

Although they are less efficient towards 0°C, they are more efficient
in milder weather and when run at less than the rated capacity, so it
evens out more.

The capital cost of a ground source heat pump is horrendous. The payback
period is looooooooong.

Air source is way cheaper, and sounds diyable. Does someone here know
more about it?

The biggie for air source is that when the temperature drops to 0°C
frost can form on the evaporator outdoors, which needs to be thawed
off and reduces efficiency.

It might be possible to have a semi-ground loop. Air would be used
when it's temperature is above 0, and the ground loop at other times.
A smaller pipe in the earth or large pond could be used as the ground
loop.

Also when the air temperature is above that of the ground loop, the
ground loop could be warmed using the air. This could all be done with
a normal outdoor unit with a small pump to circulate liquid warmed by
the ground loop over the coils when required. The liquid could be
distilled water maybe with some potable antifreeze.

cheers,
Pete.

"Pete C" wrote in message
...
There are ones available in Japan that have a heat transfer of around
6 or above:

Toshiba:

http://www.excite.co.jp/world/englis...%2F%2Fwww.dais
eikai.com%2Findex_j2.htm&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2

http://www.excite.co.jp/world/englis.../www.daiseikai
..com/eco/index_j.htm&wb_lp=JAEN

Hitachi:

http://www.excite.co.jp/world/englis...%2F%2Fkadenfan
..hitachi.co.jp%2Fra%2Faircon%2Fproducts%2Frase22s .htm&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2

Daikin:

http://www.excite.co.jp/world/englis...%2F%2Fec.daiki
naircon.com%3A8090%2Fecatalog%2FDKCA001%2Findex.ht ml&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2

I only get blank pages for these Excite pages. Is there a trick to seeing
the real page ?



Mistubishi:

http://www.mhi.co.jp/aircon/cs/produ..._1/pdf/p007.pd
f

This one is fine, albeit in Japanese. We had an older model in a place I
used to work and all it did was either ice up on cool or spew it's guts on
heat. Certainly didn't manage 6:1 but I'll investigate further.

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 21:04:01 +0100, "G&M" wrote:


"Pete C" wrote in message
.. .
There are ones available in Japan that have a heat transfer of around
6 or above:

Toshiba:

http://www.excite.co.jp/world/englis...%2F%2Fwww.dais
eikai.com%2Findex_j2.htm&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2

http://www.excite.co.jp/world/englis.../www.daiseikai
.com/eco/index_j.htm&wb_lp=JAEN

Hitachi:

http://www.excite.co.jp/world/englis...%2F%2Fkadenfan
.hitachi.co.jp%2Fra%2Faircon%2Fproducts%2Frase22s .htm&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2

Daikin:

http://www.excite.co.jp/world/englis...%2F%2Fec.daiki
naircon.com%3A8090%2Fecatalog%2FDKCA001%2Findex.h tml&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2

I only get blank pages for these Excite pages. Is there a trick to seeing
the real page ?

Hi,

Seems to work OK here on IE and Opera. Try:

http://world.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.daiseikai.c om%2Findex_j2.htm&lp=ja_en
http://world.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.daiseikai.c om%2Feco%2Findex_j.htm&lp=ja_en

http://world.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkadenfan.hitach i.co.jp%2Fra%2Faircon%2Fproducts%2Frase22s.htm&lp= ja_en

http://world.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.da ikinaircon.com%2fcatalog%2fd-catalog%2furusara%2f03%2findex.html


Or go to http://world.altavista.com/babelfish/tr select Japanese -
English and enter them in as follows:

http://www.daiseikai.com/index_j2.htm
http://www.daiseikai.com/eco/index_j.htm

http://kadenfan.hitachi.co.jp/ra/aircon/products/rase22s.htm

http://www.daikinaircon.com/catalog/d-catalog/urusara/03/index.html

cheers,
Pete.

Pete C wrote in message . ..
On 30 Apr 2004 05:52:31 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:

"Rick Dipper" wrote in message
...

Some info about heat pumps:

Electrically powered compression type pumps can do 3x to 4x heat
transfer, but this is a max figure, and drops as outdoor temp falls.
Thats the gotcha.
Hi,

There are ones available in Japan that have a heat transfer of around
6 or above:

Toshiba:
http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/web/body?wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.daiseikai.com%2Findex _j2.htm&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2
http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/web/body/?wb_url=http://www.daiseikai.com/eco/index_j.htm&wb_lp=JAEN

Hitachi:
http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/web/body?wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fkadenfan.hitachi.co.jp%2F ra%2Faircon%2Fproducts%2Frase22s.htm&wb_lp=JAEN&wb _dis=2

Daikin:
http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/web/body?wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fec.daikinaircon.com%3A809 0%2Fecatalog%2FDKCA001%2Findex.html&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_ dis=2

Mistubishi:
http://www.mhi.co.jp/aircon/cs/products/home/catalog/04srac_a_1/pdf/p007.pdf

Although they are less efficient towards 0°C, they are more efficient
in milder weather and when run at less than the rated capacity, so it
evens out more.

The capital cost of a ground source heat pump is horrendous. The payback
period is looooooooong.


Good refs there.

Air source is way cheaper, and sounds diyable. Does someone here know
more about it?

The biggie for air source is that when the temperature drops to 0°C
frost can form on the evaporator outdoors, which needs to be thawed
off and reduces efficiency.

Has anyone tried mechanical frost removal? Would seem far more energy
efficient.
Also solar reflectors pointed to the cold element would reduce this at
least a bit, and presumably help with efficiency. Cant say I've tried
any of this though. Solar space heating is cheaper and pays back ok.

It might be possible to have a semi-ground loop. Air would be used
when it's temperature is above 0, and the ground loop at other times.
A smaller pipe in the earth or large pond could be used as the ground
loop.

Also when the air temperature is above that of the ground loop, the
ground loop could be warmed using the air. This could all be done with
a normal outdoor unit with a small pump to circulate liquid warmed by
the ground loop over the coils when required. The liquid could be
distilled water maybe with some potable antifreeze.

extra complication, extra cost, thats the problem.


Regards, NT

On 1 May 2004 06:05:25 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:


It might be possible to have a semi-ground loop. Air would be used
when it's temperature is above 0, and the ground loop at other times.
A smaller pipe in the earth or large pond could be used as the ground
loop.

Also when the air temperature is above that of the ground loop, the
ground loop could be warmed using the air. This could all be done with
a normal outdoor unit with a small pump to circulate liquid warmed by
the ground loop over the coils when required. The liquid could be
distilled water maybe with some potable antifreeze.

extra complication, extra cost, thats the problem.

Not really, apart from a small ground source of some type it just
requires a small pump and some tubing. Rather than use the ground
source to supply all the heat, just use it as a buffer to even out
temperature swings.

This should allow a heat pump to operate more efficiently as the
average monthly winter temperature in the UK rarely drops below 0°C :

http://www.metoffice.com/climate/uk/seriesstatistics/ewtemp.txt

Even the average monthly temperature last summer was 17°C, so it could
be used for air conditioning or even normal air cooling too.

With some simple temperature control on the pump the ground source
could only be used when necessary and it's temperature change reversed
when the air temperature allows.

cheers,
Pete.

"Pete C" wrote in message
...
On 1 May 2004 06:05:25 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:


It might be possible to have a semi-ground loop. Air would be used
when it's temperature is above 0, and the ground loop at other times.
A smaller pipe in the earth or large pond could be used as the ground
loop.

Also when the air temperature is above that of the ground loop, the
ground loop could be warmed using the air. This could all be done with
a normal outdoor unit with a small pump to circulate liquid warmed by
the ground loop over the coils when required. The liquid could be
distilled water maybe with some potable antifreeze.

extra complication, extra cost, thats the problem.

Not really, apart from a small ground source of some type it just
requires a small pump and some tubing. Rather than use the ground
source to supply all the heat, just use it as a buffer to even out
temperature swings.

This should allow a heat pump to operate more efficiently as the
average monthly winter temperature in the UK rarely drops below 0°C :

http://www.metoffice.com/climate/uk/seriesstatistics/ewtemp.txt

Even the average monthly temperature last summer was 17°C, so it could
be used for air conditioning or even normal air cooling too.

With some simple temperature control on the pump the ground source
could only be used when necessary and it's temperature change reversed
when the air temperature allows.

If you having ground loop then it is best to ditch the air sourced heat pump
and go for a full ground source loop, rather than a half cocked affair.
Then to warm the ground loop, using purchased energy can only be
inefficient. You then would be heating the earth around the loop. Much of
this heat, depending on earth temp, may just convect away, and may never be
re-extracted when needed.

You could have a "large" water/glycol filled pipe loop, using a pump to
circulate. This, when buried deep enough will extract useful heat that may
be used to re-heat, or heat, a cylinder, or thermal store. Only using a
pump. The size of the loop would have to be calculated, depending the
temperature at certain depths and the local ground conditions.