Also I suppose writable dvd's are ££££ more thatn non-rewritable ones.
Could I
perhaps use my PC to do the transfer - dvd writer. but how to I get the
vhs
signal onto it?

I use the following method (Because I had the kit anyway!)

VCR connected to the AV input of my Sony DCR-TRV30e camcorder
(No tape in the camcorder)
FireWire cable from camcorder to PC
Put the camcorder in playback mode
Press capture in Pinnacle Studio
Press Play on the VCR
Wait ages!
Edit, and burn to DVDR

Sparks...

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 00:29:15 GMT, dave wrote:

Is OT but not entirely I hope (he says clutching keyboard tightly)...
Now that VHS videos machines are being given the boot (by Dixons I think - so
that's that then), I was wondering what would be the best/cheapest way to get my
videos onto dvd? I see there are combined dvd/vhs cassette machines available
but am right in thinking these won't actually write the dvd from the vhs tape?

It depends which one you buy. There are combination VHS tape and DVD
player machines that won't do what you want because the DVD part is
playback only.

There are a small number of combined VCR and DVD recorders on the
market.

I was looking for the same thing a few months ago after my VCR packed
up. I wanted something to transfer video tapes periodically as well
as to be able to record to DVD anyway, often so that I have some
things to watch when I'm travelling. German,Norwegian,.... TV gets a
bit boring after a while and BBC News24 a touch repetitive.
For this application I wanted to make DVDs that will play on a
notebook PC.

After a bit of looking, I settled on a Panasonic DMRE75VEBS (costs
about £290).

This has two TV tuners and supports almost all of the different DVD
media types. I have a fairly good Sony DVD player as well and
would say that the DVD player is not quite as functional but quality
is as good.

VHS tape to DVD transfer is done by internal connection and the
quality is quite a bit better than via external cable connections -
even component or SVHS.

Also I suppose writable dvd's are ££££ more thatn non-rewritable ones.

If you mean the media, yes. I tend to use DVD-R disks which are
pretty cheap and I don't really care about using them again.
On the machine I have, you can part record the disk and add more, but
it is only playable on the machine itself until it has been finalised
and an index added. Then it can be played on a PC.

Could I
perhaps use my PC to do the transfer - dvd writer. but how to I get the vhs
signal onto it?

I have a setup that will do that as well with quite a good capture
card that I mainly use with the video camera, but it would do this
job. If you have a good fast hard disk and a decent capture card
you can achieve results that are comparable to the combined VCR and
DVD recorder, but it does need to be a good capture card - the £50
budget ones are not that good and with a reasonable VHS tape you can
see the difference.





What does the grp think of those combined dvd/video machines (copying aside)?
Are they good value or is there some show-stopping reason not to get one?

I think they are a good buy if you want something that gives pretty
good quality and is easy to use.


tia




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
dave wrote:
Is OT but not entirely I hope (he says clutching keyboard tightly)...
Now that VHS videos machines are being given the boot (by Dixons I think
- so that's that then), I was wondering what would be the best/cheapest
way to get my videos onto dvd? I see there are combined dvd/vhs cassette
machines available but am right in thinking these won't actually write
the dvd from the vhs tape? Also I suppose writable dvd's are ££££ more
thatn non-rewritable ones. Could I perhaps use my PC to do the transfer
- dvd writer. but how to I get the vhs signal onto it?

Curry's may have dropped VHS machines - probably because they can't make
enough profit out of them - but I'll bet they'll be around for a long time.

What does the grp think of those combined dvd/video machines (copying
aside)? Are they good value or is there some show-stopping reason not to
get one? tia

can't see any benefit in a combined machine - you can simply plug a DVD
recorder into your VHS and copy from that. If they both have Scart sockets
it's pretty straightforward.

--
*Horn broken. - Watch for finger.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Sparks" wrote in message
...

Also I suppose writable dvd's are ££££ more thatn non-rewritable ones.
Could I
perhaps use my PC to do the transfer - dvd writer. but how to I get the
vhs
signal onto it?

I use the following method (Because I had the kit anyway!)

VCR connected to the AV input of my Sony DCR-TRV30e camcorder
(No tape in the camcorder)
FireWire cable from camcorder to PC
Put the camcorder in playback mode
Press capture in Pinnacle Studio
Press Play on the VCR
Wait ages!
Edit, and burn to DVDR

Further to this...

How much space would a (eg) 180min film take up on my HD prior to editing
(adverts) onto DVD?
How much VHS can be stored on a single, standard DVD-R?

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:09:07 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
dave wrote:
Is OT but not entirely I hope (he says clutching keyboard tightly)...
Now that VHS videos machines are being given the boot (by Dixons I think
- so that's that then), I was wondering what would be the best/cheapest
way to get my videos onto dvd? I see there are combined dvd/vhs cassette
machines available but am right in thinking these won't actually write
the dvd from the vhs tape? Also I suppose writable dvd's are ££££ more
thatn non-rewritable ones. Could I perhaps use my PC to do the transfer
- dvd writer. but how to I get the vhs signal onto it?

Curry's may have dropped VHS machines - probably because they can't make
enough profit out of them - but I'll bet they'll be around for a long time.

What does the grp think of those combined dvd/video machines (copying
aside)? Are they good value or is there some show-stopping reason not to
get one? tia

can't see any benefit in a combined machine - you can simply plug a DVD
recorder into your VHS and copy from that. If they both have Scart sockets
it's pretty straightforward.


Smaller space, dubbing quality is a bit better.......
Pricing was about the same as an equivalent DVD recorder (only) so if
the old VCR was class F, then it does make sense.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:20:46 GMT, "Nospam Pat" wrote:


"Sparks" wrote in message
. ..

Also I suppose writable dvd's are ££££ more thatn non-rewritable ones.
Could I
perhaps use my PC to do the transfer - dvd writer. but how to I get the
vhs
signal onto it?

I use the following method (Because I had the kit anyway!)

VCR connected to the AV input of my Sony DCR-TRV30e camcorder
(No tape in the camcorder)
FireWire cable from camcorder to PC
Put the camcorder in playback mode
Press capture in Pinnacle Studio
Press Play on the VCR
Wait ages!
Edit, and burn to DVDR

Further to this...

How much space would a (eg) 180min film take up on my HD prior to editing
(adverts) onto DVD?
How much VHS can be stored on a single, standard DVD-R?

It depends on the video card, codec used and amount of compression.
The transfer and compression time is often many times real time.
A DVD recorder works in real time apart from a few seconds when
finalising a disk.

DVD-Rs will store up to 8hrs with compression (on my recorder at
least). Mileage may vary with PCs. Generally I use mine at the 2hr
rate for best quality - the disks are cheap enough.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

dave wrote:

that's that then), I was wondering what would be the best/cheapest way to get my
videos onto dvd? I see there are combined dvd/vhs cassette machines available
but am right in thinking these won't actually write the dvd from the vhs tape?
Also I suppose writable dvd's are ££££ more thatn non-rewritable ones. Could I
perhaps use my PC to do the transfer - dvd writer. but how to I get the vhs
signal onto it?

Best is not going to be cheapest, but will depend a bit on what you
already have. Cheapest DVD writer is one for a computer. These can be
had for under 40 quid now (even a top end 12x Plextor is only about 60
quid). However that means you need a way to get the film onto the
computer. As somone else suggested, you may have a camcorder with
firewire that could do it for you, or, you could get a video capture
card. You can also get firewire equiped external video digitizers, but
these are still a bit pricy.

The simpler method may be a consumer DVD recorder deck, then in theory
you can plug the VCR into the deck with a scart lead and hit record on
one, and play on the other. I say "in theory", because there may be a
few other hurdles to jump. If the material you want to transfer is a
commercially produced VHS tape, then chances are it will be protected by
Macrovision. Hence you will need a small box of tricks inserted between
the VHS and DVDR to strip this.

DVDR disks are pretty cheap now, no need to pay more than say 8 quid for
25 in a cake box.

What does the grp think of those combined dvd/video machines (copying aside)?
Are they good value or is there some show-stopping reason not to get one?

If you want a smaller one box solution they are OK. Note that most of
the first generation of these machines are DVD playback only at the moment.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
can't see any benefit in a combined machine - you can simply plug a DVD
recorder into your VHS and copy from that. If they both have Scart
sockets it's pretty straightforward.


Smaller space, dubbing quality is a bit better....... Pricing was about
the same as an equivalent DVD recorder (only) so if the old VCR was
class F, then it does make sense.

I've got an S-VHS recorder, and this transfers to DVD with no loss of
quality - although you'll still get the artifacts inherent in the DVD
system, of course.

--
*On the other hand, you have different fingers.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Nospam Pat wrote:
How much space would a (eg) 180min film take up on my HD prior to editing
(adverts) onto DVD?
How much VHS can be stored on a single, standard DVD-R?

With a DVD recorder you can set the quality level. On mine, you'll get
near indistinguishable quality from Freeview at the best level which
allows only 1 hour. 3 hour is about good VHS. Although since the
'problems' are different, you'd really have to judge for yourself which
suits you.

--
*A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Andy Hall
writes

Smaller space, dubbing quality is a bit better.......
Pricing was about the same as an equivalent DVD recorder (only) so if
the old VCR was class F, then it does make sense.

class F? (****ed?)

--
..sigmonster on vacation

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 03:49:06 +0000, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

In article , Andy Hall
writes

Smaller space, dubbing quality is a bit better.......
Pricing was about the same as an equivalent DVD recorder (only) so if
the old VCR was class F, then it does make sense.

class F? (****ed?)


:-)



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
dave wrote:

Is OT but not entirely I hope (he says clutching keyboard tightly)...


Another related question which I have is that of formats. Quite apart from
the many flavours of physical DVD media which are out there, there seem to
be lots of ways (MPEG etc.) of actually encoding the video data.

I have lots of Hi-8 (SVHS equivalent) video footage which I would like to
digitise and edit on the computer. I don't want to buy an expensive capture
card for a one-off exercise. If I were to buy a DVD recorder as a
replacement for my ageing VCR, what are the chances that I could use it to
capture my video to DVD in a form which I can then edit on the computer?
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

Set Square wrote:

I have lots of Hi-8 (SVHS equivalent) video footage which I would like to
digitise and edit on the computer. I don't want to buy an expensive capture
card for a one-off exercise. If I were to buy a DVD recorder as a
replacement for my ageing VCR, what are the chances that I could use it to
capture my video to DVD in a form which I can then edit on the computer?

You could run a DVD ripper program on the DVD to extract MPEG2 files
from it. Then you should be able to edit it in a video editing package
before finally reauthoring back to DVD (so you will want a DVD writer on
the PC (+ loads of RAM and hard drive space, and a decent processor))

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

I've got an S-VHS recorder, and this transfers to DVD with no loss of
quality - although you'll still get the artifacts inherent in the DVD
system, of course.

S-VHS is still analogue, so there will be some loss surely?

Sparks...

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 10:01:38 -0000, "Set Square"
wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
dave wrote:

Is OT but not entirely I hope (he says clutching keyboard tightly)...


Another related question which I have is that of formats. Quite apart from
the many flavours of physical DVD media which are out there, there seem to
be lots of ways (MPEG etc.) of actually encoding the video data.

There's a compatibility issue here.

There are a whole range of codecs that can be used on a PC.

For example, you could rip/decrypt a DVD to a disk file - then you can
re-encode that in a variety of different formats like MPEG-4, Windows
Media, Real, DivX and so on. This would be useful if you wanted a
small file for web use or to save space on the PC. It will play on
the PC. However, there is one specific flavour of MPEG-2 that can
be recorded onto a DVD medium and played on a stand alone DVD player.


I have lots of Hi-8 (SVHS equivalent) video footage which I would like to
digitise and edit on the computer. I don't want to buy an expensive capture
card for a one-off exercise. If I were to buy a DVD recorder as a
replacement for my ageing VCR, what are the chances that I could use it to
capture my video to DVD in a form which I can then edit on the computer?

That you can do because you would just cable up from your camera to
the DVD recorder and record the disk.

Then take the disk and put in your PC and proceed as before. There
is editing software around that will allow you to edit with that as a
source and write back to DVD at the end.

Generally though, for video editing you need a big disk and fast PC
because it is heavy number crunching behind the scenes.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall wrote:

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 10:01:38 -0000, "Set Square"
wrote:

I have lots of Hi-8 (SVHS equivalent) video footage which I would
like to digitise and edit on the computer. I don't want to buy an
expensive capture card for a one-off exercise. If I were to buy a
DVD recorder as a replacement for my ageing VCR, what are the
chances that I could use it to capture my video to DVD in a form
which I can then edit on the computer?

That you can do because you would just cable up from your camera to
the DVD recorder and record the disk.

Then take the disk and put in your PC and proceed as before. There
is editing software around that will allow you to edit with that as a
source and write back to DVD at the end.

Are you saying that the DVD recorder would record my video in a format which
would be acceptable as input to the video editor? If so, what format would
that be?

If not, what software would I need to "rip" it into something acceptable. I
have Pinnacle Studio 8 SE - which came bundled with something or other -
which can take input from a DV camera or from a video capture card, but
there's no obvious way of getting it to read from a file - even though it
can apparantly save to various file formats including AVI, MPEG, Real and
WindowsMedia.

Generally though, for video editing you need a big disk and fast PC
because it is heavy number crunching behind the scenes.

I have an AMD Athlon 2600 processor and 100GB disk, plus an extermal 250GB
firewire disk. Is this good enough?
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:09:46 -0000, "Set Square"
wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall wrote:

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 10:01:38 -0000, "Set Square"
wrote:

I have lots of Hi-8 (SVHS equivalent) video footage which I would
like to digitise and edit on the computer. I don't want to buy an
expensive capture card for a one-off exercise. If I were to buy a
DVD recorder as a replacement for my ageing VCR, what are the
chances that I could use it to capture my video to DVD in a form
which I can then edit on the computer?

That you can do because you would just cable up from your camera to
the DVD recorder and record the disk.

Then take the disk and put in your PC and proceed as before. There
is editing software around that will allow you to edit with that as a
source and write back to DVD at the end.

Are you saying that the DVD recorder would record my video in a format which
would be acceptable as input to the video editor? If so, what format would
that be?

It depends on the video editor and the codecs that it will support.

The transfer would be for the DVD to be loaded into the PC and to read
from that. If it were a commercial DVD it will be encrypted and that
is the purpose for ripping software. Obviously in some countries this
may be breaking copyright.

Such decryption software is readily available if you do a Google
search. THe result is a disk file that you may be able to edit.

You can test this out by taking a normal DVD disk and ripping it to
disk.


If not, what software would I need to "rip" it into something acceptable. I
have Pinnacle Studio 8 SE - which came bundled with something or other -
which can take input from a DV camera or from a video capture card, but
there's no obvious way of getting it to read from a file - even though it
can apparantly save to various file formats including AVI, MPEG, Real and
WindowsMedia.

It's hard to say. The most common working codec to use for editing
in these environments is Motion JPEG or MJPEG, although some editors
will work on others. MJPEG tends to be used because it is
effectively a sequence of JPEG images (24-30/second) with all of the
information in each frame. The MPEG and other codecs typically
employ both spatial and temporal compression - the latter being that
some optimisation is done from frame to frame as well as within
frames. This makes effects and editing harder to do and often the
effects are limited to simple butt edits - i.e. straight scene
changes. Therefore you may find that it's necessary to transcode
from say the DVD MPEG2 format to MJPEG or a proprietary one before
editing and then back again afterwards.

Unless you have a graphics card with hardware support for transcoding
this can be a very long process - 10:1 in terms of time is typical.

You really need to look through the card and software documentation to
see what they do, but at least you can try it out before buying the
DVD recorder.


Generally though, for video editing you need a big disk and fast PC
because it is heavy number crunching behind the scenes.

I have an AMD Athlon 2600 processor and 100GB disk, plus an extermal 250GB
firewire disk. Is this good enough?

Should be.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Set Square wrote:

Are you saying that the DVD recorder would record my video in a format which
would be acceptable as input to the video editor? If so, what format would
that be?

The video record will create a standard DVD with .VOB files containing
the video/audio plus some .ifo files to control the menu etc. I don't
think pinnacle will read this directly. Depending on your source DVD
(i.e. commercial / home recorded) you may not be able to copy the files
from it directly, however a program like SmartRipper (freeware) will
slap a complete copy onto a hard drive in about 10 mins on your spec
computer. It will also remove any region protection or macrovision in
the process. ;-)


If not, what software would I need to "rip" it into something acceptable. I
have Pinnacle Studio 8 SE - which came bundled with something or other -
which can take input from a DV camera or from a video capture card, but
there's no obvious way of getting it to read from a file - even though it
can apparantly save to various file formats including AVI, MPEG, Real and
WindowsMedia.

You may need a pre processing step to convert the DVD image into a file
format you can read. Pinnacle can read various file formats in the
editing window - you just load them as clips, and the assemble them into
your project. When happy you can then render the lot back into a DVD
images and record it. This last stage can be pretty slow (i.e. 5 to 10
hours for a full DVD).

If you just was to assemble various bits of footage on the same DVD
without being able to do frame by frame editing, then you can do this
quite quickly with programs like DVDShrink. This will take complete
programs from multiple DVDs if required and splat them onto a DVD. This
is quite quick (say 30 mins for a full DVD including recording time). As
its name suggests DVDShrink will also allow you to vary the compression
when transcoding. This allows you to fit more on a disk than you
otherwise would be able to.

Generally though, for video editing you need a big disk and fast PC
because it is heavy number crunching behind the scenes.


I have an AMD Athlon 2600 processor and 100GB disk, plus an extermal 250GB
firewire disk. Is this good enough?

Yup, it will do for starters. As I discovered, video editing will take
all the hardware you can muster, burp, and say "Gimmy more!".


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"dave" wrote in message
...
Is OT but not entirely I hope (he says clutching keyboard tightly)...
Now that VHS videos machines are being given the boot (by Dixons I think -
so
that's that then).snip

Only if you pander to their marketing hype it is, as if they know what they
are talking about in any case, if it was true don't you think that their
sister companies would also be emptying their shelves...

They want you to buy standalone DVD writers, because they will make more
profit on them, as they are still able to sell with a price hike.

Andy Hall wrote:

The most common working codec to use for editing
in these environments is Motion JPEG or MJPEG, although some editors
will work on others. MJPEG tends to be used because it is
effectively a sequence of JPEG images (24-30/second) with all of the
information in each frame. The MPEG and other codecs typically
employ both spatial and temporal compression - the latter being that
some optimisation is done from frame to frame as well as within
frames. This makes effects and editing harder to do and often the
effects are limited to simple butt edits - i.e. straight scene
changes. Therefore you may find that it's necessary to transcode
from say the DVD MPEG2 format to MJPEG or a proprietary one before
editing and then back again afterwards.

I'm not an expert on these editing systems, but I gather that the new
standard for working in is Wavelet rather than MJPEG as the pixelation
loss is considerably better. I'm currently using MJPEG for recording and
the definition loss is quite significant when you compare the original
with the recording. Just a comment.

Regards
Capitol

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"dave" wrote in message
...
Is OT but not entirely I hope (he says clutching keyboard tightly)...
Now that VHS videos machines are being given the boot (by Dixons I
think -
so
that's that then).snip

Only if you pander to their marketing hype it is, as if they know what
they
are talking about in any case, if it was true don't you think that their
sister companies would also be emptying their shelves...

They want you to buy standalone DVD writers, because they will make more
profit on them, as they are still able to sell with a price hike.

Very little to do with hype.
More to do with consumer-led marketing - they are selling 40 DVD players
and/or Recorders for every 1 VCR.

It makes perfect business sense to me to stop selling a slower line to
accomodate faster/more popular selling electronics.
That's why and *how* they exist.

DVD Digital Video is certainly the technological future of home visual
recording.
Magnetic tape in all forms has had its day.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:26:24 +0000, Capitol
wrote:



Andy Hall wrote:

The most common working codec to use for editing
in these environments is Motion JPEG or MJPEG, although some editors
will work on others. MJPEG tends to be used because it is
effectively a sequence of JPEG images (24-30/second) with all of the
information in each frame. The MPEG and other codecs typically
employ both spatial and temporal compression - the latter being that
some optimisation is done from frame to frame as well as within
frames. This makes effects and editing harder to do and often the
effects are limited to simple butt edits - i.e. straight scene
changes. Therefore you may find that it's necessary to transcode
from say the DVD MPEG2 format to MJPEG or a proprietary one before
editing and then back again afterwards.

I'm not an expert on these editing systems, but I gather that the new
standard for working in is Wavelet rather than MJPEG as the pixelation
loss is considerably better. I'm currently using MJPEG for recording and
the definition loss is quite significant when you compare the original
with the recording. Just a comment.



Yes, you're right, but the MJPEG quality achievable does depend on the
software or hardware codec. Some are better than others and it's not
always dependent on price. For the vendors, it's a trade off between
quality and speed although most systems are fairly adjustable. On the
one hand people want to have speed, but they want quality and
sometimes small file size as well.

Wavelet stuff can be better, especially when trying to squeeze the
best quality out of modest bandwidth but I am not sure that there are
any common standards using it. Arguably, it doesn't matter for a
codec being used within an editing system as long as the transcoding
with common display codecs is good.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Nospam Pat" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"dave" wrote in message
...
Is OT but not entirely I hope (he says clutching keyboard tightly)...
Now that VHS videos machines are being given the boot (by Dixons I
think -
so
that's that then).snip

Only if you pander to their marketing hype it is, as if they know what
they
are talking about in any case, if it was true don't you think that their
sister companies would also be emptying their shelves...

They want you to buy standalone DVD writers, because they will make more
profit on them, as they are still able to sell with a price hike.

Very little to do with hype.
More to do with consumer-led marketing - they are selling 40 DVD players
and/or Recorders for every 1 VCR.

Bollox, are you seriously suggesting that every one of the 100,000,000 plus
VCR tapes around have been transferred to disk, FFS the vinyl record has
meant to have been dead for over 15 years, you can still buy records and the
decks to play them, how long since the 'compact cassette' has been main
stream hifi (if ever it was), you can still buy both tapes and decks.


It makes perfect business sense to me to stop selling a slower line to
accomodate faster/more popular selling electronics.
That's why and *how* they exist.

They are 'existing' by pushing 'the lasted technology' (it's their
advertising tag-line after all...) to people who know no better, not that
DVD is bad technology. As I said, if the VCR recorder was really dead you
would not be able to walk into one of their sister companies and buy them
off the self nor walk into any supermarket and buy the tapes !


DVD Digital Video is certainly the technological future of home visual
recording.
Magnetic tape in all forms has had its day.


So has the vinyl record, or the 'compact cassette', but you can still buy
both recorder and tapes in main stream stores, I'm not even sure the
8 -track stereo is dead, certainly little used but not dead.

The real point is, their is far more profit in the DVD recorder, by killing
the VCR deck off in the Dixons stores they (Dixons Group PLC) are hoping to
cash in on people like the OP and you who think that they will have to buy a
DVD recorder just to preserve (in a watchable format) what they have on
VHS - such as kids growing up, holidays, weddings etc. (most people will
never gat to grips with either the fact or the nuts and bolt of using their
computer system to capture and burn video to DVD).

The simple fact is, there is simple just to many VHS cassettes around for
the VCR to be dead, if it's even dieing ATM - why would manufactures sell
combined VHS / DVD units if no one uses magnetic tape any more ?...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

{trim}

So has the vinyl record, or the 'compact cassette', but you can still buy
both recorder and tapes in main stream stores, I'm not even sure the
8 -track stereo is dead, certainly little used but not dead.

The real point is, their is far more profit in the DVD recorder, by
killing
the VCR deck off in the Dixons stores they (Dixons Group PLC) are hoping
to
cash in on people like the OP and you who think that they will have to buy
a
DVD recorder just to preserve (in a watchable format) what they have on
VHS - such as kids growing up, holidays, weddings etc.

In a sense, they will have to convert to digital if they want to preserve
their videos.
Even unplayed video tapes degrade substantially.
Anyone who wants to preserve their analogue memories for longer than a few
years should strongly consider conversion to DVD.

(most people will
never gat to grips with either the fact or the nuts and bolt of using
their
computer system to capture and burn video to DVD).

Of course they will! Just as people got to grips with recording onto VHS.
It will become 'de riguer' Part of everyday life. Like mobile phones.

The simple fact is, there is simple just to many VHS cassettes around for
the VCR to be dead, if it's even dieing ATM - why would manufactures sell
combined VHS / DVD units if no one uses magnetic tape any more ?...

Preparing for the transition.
Switching it round - why would they put DVD players alongside VCR if the
video was still going strong?

Within 5 years nobody will even be making VCR's - it will all be; direct to
harddrive digital recording or even on-the-fly to Digital Versatile Disk.
I didn't suggest it would happen overnight.
Not dead...just dying.

By the way, I don't work for Dixons, in fact I avoid them like the plague.

In article ,
Nospam Pat wrote:
Even unplayed video tapes degrade substantially. Anyone who wants to
preserve their analogue memories for longer than a few years should
strongly consider conversion to DVD.

While DVDs might have the same sort of life as CDs, I doubt recordable
ones will last anywhere as long as a decently stored tape.

--
*Why don't sheep shrink when it rains?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Nospam Pat" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

{trim}

So has the vinyl record, or the 'compact cassette', but you can still
buy
both recorder and tapes in main stream stores, I'm not even sure the
8 -track stereo is dead, certainly little used but not dead.

The real point is, their is far more profit in the DVD recorder, by
killing
the VCR deck off in the Dixons stores they (Dixons Group PLC) are hoping
to
cash in on people like the OP and you who think that they will have to
buy
a
DVD recorder just to preserve (in a watchable format) what they have on
VHS - such as kids growing up, holidays, weddings etc.

In a sense, they will have to convert to digital if they want to preserve
their videos.

Why, and do you really think that (home burn) DVD is going to be the answer
?

Even unplayed video tapes degrade substantially.
Anyone who wants to preserve their analogue memories for longer than a few
years should strongly consider conversion to DVD.

I'm not sure about that, there is real concern over *home burn* DVD's (and
any other optical disk for that matter) long term stability, the one
advantage that tape has over optical disk is that even badly degraded
recordings play *something* - optical disks just refuse to do anything...


(most people will
never gat to grips with either the fact or the nuts and bolt of using
their
computer system to capture and burn video to DVD).

Of course they will! Just as people got to grips with recording onto VHS.
It will become 'de riguer' Part of everyday life. Like mobile phones.

FFS many people still can't operated there computers, let alone capture,
encode and burn optical disks, *some* people still can't even operate a VCR
(more than putting a tape in and pushing play or rewind) ! And BTW, there
are people who are baffled as to how to use a mobile phone, even though they
use a fixed line phone.


The simple fact is, there is simple just to many VHS cassettes around
for
the VCR to be dead, if it's even dieing ATM - why would manufactures
sell
combined VHS / DVD units if no one uses magnetic tape any more ?...

Preparing for the transition.
Switching it round - why would they put DVD players alongside VCR if the
video was still going strong?

It's an alternative medium, it doesn't automatically follow that it's a
replacement, the compact cassette didn't replace the vinyl record but they
did exist side by side and were often built into the same housing.


Within 5 years nobody will even be making VCR's - it will all be; direct
to
harddrive digital recording or even on-the-fly to Digital Versatile Disk.

What like now you mean, I suspect that it to will be old hat too, according
to Dixons...

I didn't suggest it would happen overnight.
Not dead...just dying.

Like the vinyl record, compact cassette or 8-track stereo you mean!


By the way, I don't work for Dixons, in fact I avoid them like the plague.


You seem to be taken in by the bullsh*t though.....

"dave" wrote in message
...
Is OT but not entirely I hope (he says clutching keyboard tightly)...
Now that VHS videos machines are being given the boot (by Dixons I think -
so
that's that then),

That's because Tesco have them for about £20. They'll be round for some
time yet.


I was wondering what would be the best/cheapest way to get my
videos onto dvd? I see there are combined dvd/vhs cassette machines
available
but am right in thinking these won't actually write the dvd from the vhs
tape?

I really would advise waiting as long as you can on writeable DVDs. There
are about five formats out there and only one of them is going to win. Are
you feeling lucky ? :-)

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:06:35 -0000, "Mike" wrote:


"dave" wrote in message


I was wondering what would be the best/cheapest way to get my
videos onto dvd? I see there are combined dvd/vhs cassette machines
available
but am right in thinking these won't actually write the dvd from the vhs
tape?

I really would advise waiting as long as you can on writeable DVDs. There
are about five formats out there and only one of them is going to win. Are
you feeling lucky ? :-)

It doesn't matter because most of the recorders support most of the
formats anyway.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:06:35 -0000, "Mike" wrote:

snip

I really would advise waiting as long as you can on writeable DVDs.
There
are about five formats out there and only one of them is going to win.
Are
you feeling lucky ? :-)

It doesn't matter because most of the recorders support most of the
formats anyway.


They do ATM, who knows what is going to happen in a year or two.

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
I really would advise waiting as long as you can on writeable DVDs.
There are about five formats out there and only one of them is going to
win. Are you feeling lucky ? :-)

It doesn't matter because most of the recorders support most of the
formats anyway.

For recording?

--
*Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:30:10 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:06:35 -0000, "Mike" wrote:

snip

I really would advise waiting as long as you can on writeable DVDs.
There
are about five formats out there and only one of them is going to win.
Are
you feeling lucky ? :-)

It doesn't matter because most of the recorders support most of the
formats anyway.


They do ATM, who knows what is going to happen in a year or two.

Since the mechanisms and electronics already support the different
formats at low cost there would be no reason to remove support.

It isn't like the Betamax/VHS issue where the mechanisms and machines
were totally different.

Added to which the equipment is cheap enough, even at this early
stage, that it doesn't matter anyway.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:16:57 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
I really would advise waiting as long as you can on writeable DVDs.
There are about five formats out there and only one of them is going to
win. Are you feeling lucky ? :-)

It doesn't matter because most of the recorders support most of the
formats anyway.

For recording?

In a few cases. I was mainly thinking about playback.

There are multiformat drives like the Sony DRU 530a

The write-once media are now so cheap that it's not really worth
buying the rewritable ones so recording compatibility is not so big a
deal AFAICS.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:16:57 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
I really would advise waiting as long as you can on writeable DVDs.
There are about five formats out there and only one of them is going
to
win. Are you feeling lucky ? :-)

It doesn't matter because most of the recorders support most of the
formats anyway.

For recording?

Very few


The write-once media are now so cheap that it's not really worth
buying the rewritable ones so recording compatibility is not so big a
deal AFAICS.

Hardly a replacement for the VCR that way.

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 22:50:46 -0000, "Mike" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:16:57 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
I really would advise waiting as long as you can on writeable DVDs.
There are about five formats out there and only one of them is going
to
win. Are you feeling lucky ? :-)

It doesn't matter because most of the recorders support most of the
formats anyway.

For recording?

Very few


The write-once media are now so cheap that it's not really worth
buying the rewritable ones so recording compatibility is not so big a
deal AFAICS.

Hardly a replacement for the VCR that way.


I don't think that it matters.

It depends on what you want to do. With VCRs I have tended to record
on tapes once and keep the tapes as an archive for a long time and
perhaps eventually bin them. I seldom re-use them.

DVD-Rs can be obtained in bulk for around 50-60p so I can do the same
thing with those.

For people who would like to record something for viewing once or
twice and then erase, there are DVD recorders with a hard disk which
will do that. If the content is worth keeping, it can be committed
to DVD. I actually think that that is a better operational solution
than a VCR.

Pre-recorded commercial DVD disks can be played on anything, so as far
as I can see, as long as one can have something that will read a DVD-R
or a DVD+R (e.g. a drive in a PC) then the different media standards
don't really matter - it's easy to transfer content from one format
to another.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

snip

For people who would like to record something for viewing once or
twice and then erase, there are DVD recorders with a hard disk which
will do that.

Yes, for plain 'Time shifting', the HD recorder is how it's going, the
ability to start watching the start of the programme before the end has been
recorded is one of the benefits the average consumer will find useful I
suspect.

If the content is worth keeping, it can be committed
to DVD. I actually think that that is a better operational solution
than a VCR.

But home burn optical disk's ATM are not stable enough to archive something
long term, such as family events etc., OTOH magnetic tape has proved it's
self over the last 40 years or so as a long term storage medium and as I
said in other post even if magnetic tape does start to degrade it will still
play out something - optical disk's tend to just sit in the drive and do sod
all.


Pre-recorded commercial DVD disks can be played on anything, so as far
as I can see, as long as one can have something that will read a DVD-R
or a DVD+R (e.g. a drive in a PC) then the different media standards
don't really matter - it's easy to transfer content from one format
to another.


I don't think anyone is arguing about pre-recorded commercial DVD's, that's
a done deal, right or wrong... Although, in saying that, even the DVD as we
know it is up for change, what with the 'blue ray' system being developed.

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:30:08 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

snip

For people who would like to record something for viewing once or
twice and then erase, there are DVD recorders with a hard disk which
will do that.

Yes, for plain 'Time shifting', the HD recorder is how it's going, the
ability to start watching the start of the programme before the end has been
recorded is one of the benefits the average consumer will find useful I
suspect.

If the content is worth keeping, it can be committed
to DVD. I actually think that that is a better operational solution
than a VCR.

But home burn optical disk's ATM are not stable enough to archive something
long term, such as family events etc., OTOH magnetic tape has proved it's
self over the last 40 years or so as a long term storage medium and as I
said in other post even if magnetic tape does start to degrade it will still
play out something - optical disk's tend to just sit in the drive and do sod
all.

Recordable DVDs are too new to know yet, I agree, but equally I have
not had problems with recordable CDs in the past. For something that
is really valuable, multiple methods of storage make sense. I tend to
keep copies of those on miniDV as well and even VHS as a last ditch.




Pre-recorded commercial DVD disks can be played on anything, so as far
as I can see, as long as one can have something that will read a DVD-R
or a DVD+R (e.g. a drive in a PC) then the different media standards
don't really matter - it's easy to transfer content from one format
to another.


I don't think anyone is arguing about pre-recorded commercial DVD's, that's
a done deal, right or wrong... Although, in saying that, even the DVD as we
know it is up for change, what with the 'blue ray' system being developed.

Probably, although I'm not sure that it matters that much as long as
there's a route to play media or transcribe.

The cost curve is very different. As the original BBC article said,
when VCRs first came out, they cost £3000 in today's money. There
was a long plateau in the £300-500 range before the price finally
bombed as the technology nears the end of its life.
DVD recorders have fallen to the £200-300 level very early on in their
life cycle, and I think it's a reflection that people will expect to
change them after no more than 5 years anyway.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:

DVD recorders have fallen to the £200-300 level very early on in their
life cycle, and I think it's a reflection that people will expect to
change them after no more than 5 years anyway.

It is also a reflection of the far greater simplicity of the CD/DVD
servo mechanism. While it is relatively cheap to optimise the
electronics and software for a high sales volume product like a VCR,
cost reduction of the mechanics did not seem to happen for a long time,
which may have partially accounted for the longer period to
"commoditization".

(There is also seems to be less spread in price and quality on CD/DVD
mechanisms, whereas a cheap VCR mechanism will only have a fraction of
the life of a better quality one)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
snip

The cost curve is very different. As the original BBC article said,
when VCRs first came out, they cost £3000 in today's money. There
was a long plateau in the £300-500 range before the price finally
bombed as the technology nears the end of its life.

But the price dropped long before VCR technology became old, SVHS could
still give DVD a run for it's money (other than random access etc.) even
today and lets not even go down the possibilities of the JVC digital 7
format...

DVD recorders have fallen to the £200-300 level very early on in their
life cycle, and I think it's a reflection that people will expect to
change them after no more than 5 years anyway.


But you seem to be missing the point of this, with so many VHS or (now)
DVD's in the world, other than for cold blooded commercial reasons, there is
no way that people are just going to move on to the next 'bright idea' from
JVC or Sony etc. - most people simple have to much invested (both monetary
and emotions) in the formats for them just to die because someone like
Dixons says that it is dead, people will see through this pure marketing
hype.

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 10:36:37 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
snip

The cost curve is very different. As the original BBC article said,
when VCRs first came out, they cost £3000 in today's money. There
was a long plateau in the £300-500 range before the price finally
bombed as the technology nears the end of its life.

But the price dropped long before VCR technology became old,

I meant to the £50-£100 level.

SVHS could
still give DVD a run for it's money (other than random access etc.) even
today

Only with a very good machine and good tapes and both are expensive.


and lets not even go down the possibilities of the JVC digital 7
format...

DVD recorders have fallen to the £200-300 level very early on in their
life cycle, and I think it's a reflection that people will expect to
change them after no more than 5 years anyway.


But you seem to be missing the point of this, with so many VHS or (now)
DVD's in the world, other than for cold blooded commercial reasons, there is
no way that people are just going to move on to the next 'bright idea' from
JVC or Sony etc.

But they do. Playback-only DVD technology languished for quite a
long time because of the threat of DivX (not the software codec) which
was a system for DVDs to be played three or four times and then be
timed out through encoding. Several of the major studios thought
that this was a great idea because they thought that it would produce
more revenue. Fortunately it died a death as people went for
standard DVD. Regional encoding has effectively fallen by the
wayside as it has become easy to get multiregion players.

My point was that as long as there's a playback method for older
formats, people will by new stuff.

- most people simple have to much invested (both monetary
and emotions) in the formats for them just to die because someone like
Dixons says that it is dead, people will see through this pure marketing
hype.


It's pretty effective marketing hype. Sales of VCRs have been
declining, even at commodity prices. The decline will be gradual,
and perhaps the large retailers will have some influence over it.
Not having something on the shelf means that people will look at
alternatives. DVD recorders in the shops at below £200 just before
Christmas will sell pretty well I think.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
But the price dropped long before VCR technology became old, SVHS could
still give DVD a run for it's money (other than random access etc.) even
today and lets not even go down the possibilities of the JVC digital 7
format...

I've got both S-VHS and a DVD recorder, and the DVD recorder in its 'best'
setting gives results near indistinguishable from off air FreeView. S-VHS
doesn't. Except on B&W films. ;-)

--
*Why don't sheep shrink when it rains?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.